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According to a conversation posted in TBP (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?754612-Cyberpunk-Gaming-Bleeding-Edge-Emergent-Gameplay-and-Eric-Brennan):

QuoteCyberpunk wanted to model Case and Molly making love in a coffin hotel, it wanted to model Michael Pare and Diane Lane kissing under a street lamp, and it wanted to model some guy welded into his car becoming more inhuman as he quested for revenge while the Knight Sabers hunted him down. But it didn't make that imperative in the game, possibly because it didn't know how, and the emergent play that resulted is the Nakitomi theft from Die Hard and the Sense/Net run, over and over again.

I call bullshit. I don't see anything at all in its core about being that. I see rules for firefights, cyberdecking, etc. Hell, I don't even see what is being claimed above in the fluff surrounding it.

Am I blind?

Also ,  Shadowrun is science  fantasy .

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827423According to a conversation posted in TBP:



I call bullshit. I don't see anything at all in its core about being that. I see rules for firefights, cyberdecking, etc. Hell, I don't even see what is being claimed above in the fluff surrounding it.

Am I blind?

No, that's just a butthurt storygamer/wannabe novelist.

Pondsmith has stated this kind of thing for many years (decades even).  If you're looking for a print example, then look at Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads (the GM advice book for Cyberpunk).  He also does a brief aside about it in Cybergeneration, and has posted a few times online about his dissatisfaction with how players made Cyberpunk about "James Bond meets the Six Million Dollar Man" rather than what he envisioned.

It's funny, I always saw cyberpunk in general being a great way to highlight the absurd amount of damage a small group of people could manage with creative applications of technology. I've found almost nothing from period stuff or what's followed trying to imitate what cyberpunk became that does it. It's all neon and corporate overlords, not one competent person who's decided something should be a crater now.

But in more acceptable by other people, cyberpunk is supposed to be the hyper violent, globalized, humanity as a commodity future we were supposedly promised back in the late 80s. Only all the hype was for more or less nothing. Except the globalization, that's kinda kicked the US in the pants.

Quote from: Gabriel2;827432Pondsmith has stated this kind of thing for many years (decades even).  If you're looking for a print example, then look at Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads (the GM advice book for Cyberpunk).  He also does a brief aside about it in Cybergeneration, and has posted a few times online about his dissatisfaction with how players made Cyberpunk about "James Bond meets the Six Million Dollar Man" rather than what he envisioned.

You're comparing apples and oranges.  Pondsmith criticized players for not making more of their characters and campaigns.  The quoted poster is blaming a lack of metagame narrative rules to deal with things like relationships and dramatic personality arcs.

There's no Vampire game you can make that couldn't turn into Trenchcoats & Katanas if that's where the players and GM want to take it.  Same thing with a Cyberpunk game where the players want to go to Pink Mohawk or Heat/Ronin.  

You can do a Silverhand/Alt, Molly/Case whatever campaign with Cyberpunk 2020 or Shadowrun, I've done it.  Hell, the Lifepath system in Cyberpunk 2020 alone gives you enough beats for a whole season of cable tv if you wanna go there.  Not a single OOC metagame storycreating mechanic needed.

The game "didn't know how" - Christ what a fucking load of shit.

I wonder if the designers of the White Wolf games got equally butthurt that almost everyone used Storyteller for Trenchcoat-and-Katana Supers.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;827436I wonder if the designers of the White Wolf games got equally butthurt that almost everyone used Storyteller for Trenchcoat-and-Katana Supers.

Yeah, Justin Achili certainly did.  Also, supposedly the writer's disdain is behind all the original WW adventures being Diablerie dungeoncrawls.

Quote from: Gabriel2;827432Pondsmith has stated this kind of thing for many years (decades even).  If you're looking for a print example, then look at Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads (the GM advice book for Cyberpunk).  He also does a brief aside about it in Cybergeneration, and has posted a few times online about his dissatisfaction with how players made Cyberpunk about "James Bond meets the Six Million Dollar Man" rather than what he envisioned.

all I remember of Cybergeneration was how the grownups had fucked up the revolution, blah blah, and an introductory setup where the characters would get humilliated by a pretty boy who was also a fighting god.

other than that, i don't recall the game being about those things in the quote (i.e. romance). do you have actual quotes?

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;827436I wonder if the designers of the White Wolf games got equally butthurt that almost everyone used Storyteller for Trenchcoat-and-Katana Supers.

As the butthurt storygamer/wannabe novelist who wrote the above, that's my point, and I specifically mention WW later on.  The play that people latch onto at tables is often quite different than designers intended when they started writing the thing.  

I'm the biggest fucking fan of Cyberpunk there is, starting from the day the Big Black Box hit my shelves, and over the years I've owned every sourcebook and run years worth of campaigns, and I've read shitloads of stuff by all of the people involved.  Hell, start by looking at the recommended references.  Cyberpunk was all about heart and rebellion, according to the books, but what a lot of people used it for was different.  That's my sole point.  

Now, butthurt overly defensive gamers who don't know their shit may choose to argue with me because they perceive some kind of new front opening in their timeless bullshit battle against storygamers, but since that is largely something occurring in their imaginations,  I don't need to respond to it, anymore than I'd want to address somebody else's tinfoil hat paranoid fantasies.

What I want to know is where you find that it ", it wanted to model Michael Pare and Diane Lane kissing under a street lamp"?

I don't see it, and maybe like so many gamers, I just missed it?

Quote from: CRKrueger;827435The game "didn't know how" - Christ what a fucking load of shit.

The game is a bog-standard Stat + Skill + die against target number game.   It was decent game design, but as time went on, R. Tal definitely added more rules for modeling what it wanted players to use to model genre.  (Witness Mekton Zeta's timeless and awesome young hotshot/grizzled veteran mods to character generation, for example, or just about anything in Castle Falkenstein.)  

I strongly suspect, given what I took as the game's intentions, and especially the plot hooks in the Lifepath system, that if the game were done today, there'd be far more mechanical support for things like doomed romances or your girlfriend being turned into an AI.

Having played with Friday Night Firefights when it first came out I think it wanted to model those who have good armor surviving combat and those without screaming and dying.

It succeeded.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827444What I want to know is where you find that it ", it wanted to model Michael Pare and Diane Lane kissing under a street lamp"?

I don't see it, and maybe like so many gamers, I just missed it?

I would have loved a game that emulates Michael Pare and Diane Lane kissing under a street lamp. I love "Streets of Fire"!

I agree with you, though, I don't see how this applies to Cyberpunk 2020...

//Panjumanju

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827444What I want to know is where you find that it ", it wanted to model Michael Pare and Diane Lane kissing under a street lamp"?

I don't see it, and maybe like so many gamers, I just missed it?

Streets of Fire.

I no longer have Cybergeneration, but I know he says in that book he had wanted CP2020 to be more like Streets of Fire than what it is.

The two mechanics which are in Cyberpunk which could be interpreted as trying to enforce the game type Pondsmith wanted are:

Lifepath.  It was borrowed straight from Mekton, and it works just as well here.  The catch is that RPGers, being what RPGers are, ignored all these charts in favor of their friendless familyless mercenary characters who just killed shit all the time with no emotion.

Empathy.  This one utterly failed.  It was supposed to model characters losing their humanity and falling prey to cyberpychosis.  The third chapter of the original AD Police seems to have directly inspired this one.  However, that's not what it ended up doing.  Instead the cyber-whores maxed out this stat so they could max out their cyberware.  At best, it just put a limit on cyberware.  At worst, it did the exact opposite of it's intended goal.

Let me find the Cyberpunk 2077 video that Pondsmith released in conjunction of the video game (and apparent reboot of the pen and paper.)

Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYxt7cwDk4E

Too long didn't watch:  Future Noir.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;827445I strongly suspect, given what I took as the game's intentions, and especially the plot hooks in the Lifepath system, that if the game were done today, there'd be far more mechanical support for things like doomed romances or your girlfriend being turned into an AI.

Maybe, but when it came out the writers of Cyberpunk 2020 chose to allow roleplaying opportunities to be handled by actual roleplaying and not some rules mechanics. I believe that to have been a good choice because it did not actively support reducing roleplaying opportunities to skill checks. Made for a more fun gaming experience.

Quote from: Gabriel2;827453Streets of Fire.

I no longer have Cybergeneration, but I know he says in that book he had wanted CP2020 to be more like Streets of Fire than what it is.

The two mechanics which are in Cyberpunk which could be interpreted as trying to enforce the game type Pondsmith wanted are:

Lifepath.  It was borrowed straight from Mekton, and it works just as well here.  The catch is that RPGers, being what RPGers are, ignored all these charts in favor of their friendless familyless mercenary characters who just killed shit all the time with no emotion.

Empathy.  This one utterly failed.  It was supposed to model characters losing their humanity and falling prey to cyberpychosis.  The third chapter of the original AD Police seems to have directly inspired this one.  However, that's not what it ended up doing.  Instead the cyber-whores maxed out this stat so they could max out their cyberware.  At best, it just put a limit on cyberware.  At worst, it did the exact opposite of it's intended goal.

See, I looked at the lifepath items as hooks for adventures, but I don't find anything beyond that to actually support modeling things like street romance, etc. Most of the modeling mechanics went to fighting and net running.

Edit: And not that you need mechanics for that, but I don't even find enough guidance or advice on how to properly roleplay things of that nature. Not in the core book at least.

Does anyone have info or a link that might shed light on how Mike Pondsmith actually ran his Cyberpunk games? is the "Listen up you primitive screwheads" book the only record?

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827457Does anyone have info or a link that might shed light on how Mike Pondsmith actually ran his Cyberpunk games? is the "Listen up you primitive screwheads" book the only record?

The first two minutes of the video I just linked are what he wanted the 'feel' of the setting to be like, that's all I could find.

Great video. He looks like a really cool guy.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;827454Let me find the Cyberpunk 2077 video that Pondsmith released in conjunction of the video game (and apparent reboot of the pen and paper.)

Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYxt7cwDk4E

That video still seems to be focused on guns, bullets, cyber-implants. I don't see any romance... so if it's representing what the author wants for the game then it looks like 2020 got it right in the first place. Unless you mean the first two minutes implies he wants it to be about a guy wandering around alone at night.

The person who wrote that original post is delusional.  I had a the cyber-gear and hardware splatbooks for Cyberpunk:2020 back in the day both from R.Tal and from 3pp (DP9).  The reality is this: the game has it so you can have your vital, irreplaceable organs and your brain installed into a synthetic body that gives you Olympian abilities, and then you can have that guy drive a (fully statted out, right down to what it costs in euro!) Main Battle Tank, or stroll around wearing powered armor that would make an Appleseed fan green with envy.

If Pondsmith's game was supposed to be all about some narrative story bullshit, the splatbooks would've reflected that.  As it is, the only thing (and it was incredibly thin) between the above scenarios and players was the ridiculous "cyber-psychosis" rules, which kind of put me in the shoes of people who don't like AD&D and especially don't like the alignment system.  I had a supplement around here called Maximum Metal that was nothing but military hardware for Cyberpunk 2020 and it says in the introduction (essentially) that the hardware in the book can turn your game into G.I. Cyberpunk Joe, and if that happens then the fault is with the GM.

The fact of the matter is I've run every type of Cyberpunk game with the 2020 rules from Bladerunner to Bubblegum:Crisis and there's no "right way" and "wrong way" to do it.  The sole question is: are my players and I having fun?  That's it.  That's all.  The OOP is yet another butthurt dramagamer stomping his feet going "GUYS...GUYYYYYYYYYS!  YOU AREN'T HAVING FUN THE WAY I WANT YOU TO HAVE FUN!  STOOOOOOOOOP COMEOOOOOOOOON :( :( :( "

Quote from: CRKrueger;827435...

The game "didn't know how" - Christ what a fucking load of shit.

More like "people didn't want to". And some who did want to probably did. My sessions often involved moral quandaries and romance. I always tried to make the punks fall in love with someone so they could be used against them later. :-)

Quote from: Future Villain Band;827445...

I strongly suspect, given what I took as the game's intentions, and especially the plot hooks in the Lifepath system, that if the game were done today, there'd be far more mechanical support for things like doomed romances or your girlfriend being turned into an AI.

OK. How? What kind of mechanics do you feel help support or represent romance, broken hearts and a sense of longing? Is that not something that emerges out of play? Something the player experiences based on things happening in the game?

Frank falls in love with Doll, and later Doll is kidnapped and turned into a Ghost, and now Frank carries her around in a "walkman" player so he can talk to Her (like the movie) but misses the physical relationship. Do you give him a penalty to all interaction rolls to represent his melancholy?

Wouldn't it be more compelling if the player just brings it? The person playing Frank decides NOT to pursue a physical relationship with the detective he's been working with even though spurring her advances are going to cause Frank complications in the adventure. That makes for a compelling game IMHO.

Not sure if we could or would want to represent that somehow mechanically. Maybe a disadvantage (ala GURPS)? Even then, that stuff has to be brought into the game via the GM or player.

Quote from: trechriron;827471OK. How? What kind of mechanics do you feel help support or represent romance, broken hearts and a sense of longing? Is that not something that emerges out of play? Something the player experiences based on things happening in the game?

*Cough, cough* Monsterhearts *Cough, cough*

Quote from: trechriron;827471And some who did want to probably did. My sessions often involved moral quandaries and romance.

Me too, and not an OOC metagame mechanic in sight, whodathunk it?

Quote from: trechriron;827471Is that not something that emerges out of play? Something the player experiences based on things happening in the game?

If you're roleplaying, it certainly can.

Quote from: trechriron;827471Wouldn't it be more compelling if the player just brings it?

Of course.

Quote from: trechriron;827471The person playing Frank decides NOT to pursue a physical relationship with the detective he's been working with even though spurring her advances are going to cause Frank complications in the adventure. That makes for a compelling game IMHO.

I agree, but like you, I prefer roleplaying to scriptwriting. :p

Quote from: trechriron;827471Even then, that stuff has to be brought into the game via the GM or player.

and the Money Quote.  If the players are gonna bring it, they don't need mechanical help.  If the players aren't gonna bring it, mechanical help won't do it.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;827443Now, butthurt overly defensive gamers who don't know their shit may choose to argue with me because they perceive some kind of new front opening in their timeless bullshit battle against storygamers, but since that is largely something occurring in their imaginations,  I don't need to respond to it, anymore than I'd want to address somebody else's tinfoil hat paranoid fantasies.

FVB, those are dark and difficult times. WotC just released an edition of D&D that made a good chunk of RPGnet and ENWorld angry, GW seems to be bleeding money, TSR and oWoD stuff is back in print, and even Kevin Siembieda has licensed a Rifts conversion. A grognard can feel lost and confused in such trying times. Calling for more genre-emulation in a classic game is a great opening for us to fling excrement and call names and generally party like it's 2005.

;)

On a more serious note — I've only played CP2020 once and I've read precious little cyberpunk. Regardless of what one perceives as authorial intent, what sort of genre-emulation mechanic would you have appended to the game?

Because, broadly speaking, I'm in trechriron's "let players roleplay" camp.

But then my 2nd-level paladin just walked into a portal to the Gray Wastes yesterday, so WTF do I know. ;)

Quote from: The Butcher;827484On a more serious note — I've only played CP2020 once and I've read precious little cyberpunk. Regardless of what one perceives as authorial intent, what sort of genre-emulation mechanic would you have appended to the game?

I have not the faintest idea.

The only suggestion I'd venture is perhaps some kind of bennies for characters who do things in line with the desired behaviour.  I guess something like Karma in MSH, but applied to CP situations instead of spandex heroes.

Quote from: The Butcher;827484On a more serious note — I've only played CP2020 once and I've read precious little cyberpunk. Regardless of what one perceives as authorial intent, what sort of genre-emulation mechanic would you have appended to the game?

One of the projects I'm currently working on with another writer focuses on incorporating these genre elements in the game. There are several things that we are doing mechanically to encourage the fast and hard action of cyberpunk both in and out of combat. Characters have motivations they are rewarded for playing out or by manipulating other characters. Being able to run something like the New Rose Hotel with every player walking away form the table happy was a big factor, even if one character is dead, another too paranoid to leave his room and another having completely screwed over the party.

Here are a few articles from the development blog.

Under the Hood: Handlers and Operators (http://housedok.com/under-the-hood-handlers-and-operators/)

One Size Does Not Fit All – Multiple Characters in Glass Shadows (http://housedok.com/one-size-does-not-fit-all-multiple-characters-in-glass-shadows/)

Handler Spotlight 2: Lector Jones (http://housedok.com/handler-spotlight-2-lector-jones/)

Operator Spotlight 2: Red (http://housedok.com/operator-spotlight-2-red/)

Quote from: Certified;827488Being able to run something like the New Rose Hotel with every player walking away form the table happy was a big factor, even if one character is dead, another too paranoid to leave his room and another having completely screwed over the party.

All that can be accomplished through roleplaying without dramatic genre mechanics.

Quote from: CRKrueger;827493All that can be accomplished through roleplaying without dramatic genre mechanics.

While it might not be your style of game, I was addressing the question that was asked.

Quote from: Certified;827494While it might not be your style of game, I was addressing the question that was asked.

Fair enough, you may not consider those mechanics necessarily essential to your goal, but simply prefer them due to playstyle.  This is a thread, however, where in the OP it's strongly implied the lack of such mechanics made Cyberpunk 2020...well, lacking, so I just thought I bring up the point that such mechanics aren't necessarily essential to achieving that goal.

Quote from: The Butcher;827484On a more serious note — I've only played CP2020 once and I've read precious little cyberpunk. Regardless of what one perceives as authorial intent, what sort of genre-emulation mechanic would you have appended to the game?

Because, broadly speaking, I'm in trechriron's "let players roleplay" camp.

But then my 2nd-level paladin just walked into a portal to the Gray Wastes yesterday, so WTF do I know. ;)

I wouldn't change a thing about Cyberpunk.  I love it.  I'm in the middle of running a Cyberpunk 2013 game for a review on my blog.

My comments -- of which the above quote is a minor part -- is that a lot of people were playing Cyberpunk a different way than the designer envisioned.  He wrote in later books that the game turned into something he didn't necessarily see as true to its roots.  I think he labelled that play style "James Bond meets the Six Million Dollar Man" later.

There's nothing wrong with that -- my post is that I think that happens to most games.  The designer has a goal, but that goal usually looks different than what people play at the table.  The play that emerges at people's tables, the rules they latch onto and discard, the things they focus on, looks different and then ends up shaping the line.  I think that rift, between designer(s) intent and the play people really enjoy, is interesting.  The next step, where actual play shapes the line then, is also really interesting.

I think -- and I don't say this over there at RPG.net except to mention Ron Edwards' Sorcerer, but for you to constrain a game so that there isn't drift between the designer's intention of play and the play that emerges for a lot of groups is either to cripple the system or to go to enormous lengths to make it unpleasant to play it another way.  Sorcerer is an example of the former -- I think Burning Wheel first edition is a good example of the latter.

Quote from: trechriron;827471OK. How? What kind of mechanics do you feel help support or represent romance, broken hearts and a sense of longing? Is that not something that emerges out of play? Something the player experiences based on things happening in the game?

I have mechanics in mind that might work, but I don't see those mechanics as mandatory.  Something like Night's Black Agent's trust/betrayal mechanic, might work.

You don't /need/ mechanics for this stuff, though.  People seem to think I'm saying CP is "crippled" when nothing is further from the truth.  People have been doing betrayal and romance for decades with no mechanics. Cyberpunk got chosen as an example because I interpreted later comments by the designer about the game to be instructive regarding my point about play drift, which I describe in the post before this.

Quote from: CRKrueger;827493All that can be accomplished through roleplaying without dramatic genre mechanics.

The psychic trauma of witnessing the supernatural, too, can be roleplayed. Doesn't mean that Sanity in CoC or the Madness Meter in UA aren't fantastic game mechanics.

Hell, I view XP-for-GP as a genre emulation mechanic, hard-coding the almost universal cupidity of sword-and-sorcery protagonists into D&D's DNA. It's no wonder AD&D 2e dropped this rule after Dragonlance persuaded everyone that Romantic High Fantasy D&D was A Thing.

I'm not a fan of obtrusive or gimmicky genre emulation subsystems, but maybe FVB has something just as unobtrusive and brilliantly simple in mind. I'm just not cyberpunk-savvy enough to perceive what sort of genre trope he's going after, here.

Quote from: The Butcher;827503The psychic trauma of witnessing the supernatural, too, can be roleplayed. Doesn't mean that Sanity in CoC or the Madness Meter in UA aren't fantastic game mechanics. ...

Good point.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;827502I have mechanics in mind that might work, but I don't see those mechanics as mandatory.  Something like Night's Black Agent's trust/betrayal mechanic, might work.

You don't /need/ mechanics for this stuff, though.  People seem to think I'm saying CP is "crippled" when nothing is further from the truth.  People have been doing betrayal and romance for decades with no mechanics. Cyberpunk got chosen as an example because I interpreted later comments by the designer about the game to be instructive regarding my point about play drift, which I describe in the post before this.

That's cool. The first post here was a quote from you taken partly out of context.

I am not familiar with NBA. Most of the meta-game mechanics I'm familiar with involve points (fate, action, drama, conviction...) and rate from less intrusive (re-roll, avoid damage) to more intrusive (edit the plot, introduce something, take over GMing...). Also various "traits" that offer bonuses when you do something related to that trait - like having a lover, and any actions related to them giving you a bonus (or penalty). Also, the relationship mechanics in The Mountain Witch. After my stint with various games using these, I felt like they interfered with the experience.

I think it goes along with a fundamental concept (personal philosophy?): playing the game should be MOST rewarding. If the only awards that excite players are improvement, bonuses and cheats - then the game side takes center stage. If the experience is the paramount award, then involving yourself in shenanigans outside the basic things on your character sheet are likely to have more gravitas.

Sure, you can turn that stuff INTO a game. But in the end you are gaming something that really should have an emotional or internal impact. "I collected more relationships than you" may give a player a sense of accomplishment, but lacks any emotional context. Hell, it could cheapen any emotional context that may have been there to begin with.

I feel like a player who pursues such things of their own volition, based on the character's beliefs, motivations or desires to be more... substantive than a player motivated by a game mechanic. I generally come away from games with these mechanics with a sense that something was missing.

Of course, just my two cents, YMMV, and all that jazz. :-)

Do RPG's "model" anything? I thought they were their own thing. Give us some rules, we do some stuff, there are some genre trappings from other media.

Quote from: The_Shadow;827531Do RPG's "model" anything? I thought they were their own thing. Give us some rules, we do some stuff, there are some genre trappings from other media.

Exactly this.  It drives me right up the wall when people howl and moan about how "D&D doesn't 'do' Middle Earth!  It doesn't 'do' Lankhmar!  It doesn't 'do' Hyboria!" (and so on and etcetera).  D&D is it's own fantasy realm.  You (well not "you" but people in general) that interested in those settings should have it in them to pare it into a shape more suiting those realms.  And if that's too much heavy lifting that's not the fault of the game.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827457Edit: And not that you need mechanics for that, but I don't even find enough guidance or advice on how to properly roleplay things of that nature. Not in the core book at least.

Yeah, my view is that you don't necessarily need mechanics (although positive feedback loop reward mechanisms are nice - reward players for their PCs acting like Streets of Fire characters, and they'll act like Streets of Fire characters) but you do need some GMing advice, which really wasn't in there. There wasn't really GMing advice for a cop game either, afaicr, even though Cop was one of the classes. Mechanically, the game I own (CP 2020) very very strongly incentivises playing Solos, since they will wipe the floor with everyone else in combat, and encourages a combat + netrun game; the Arasaka tower massacre without the romance element.

Quote from: The Butcher;827503The psychic trauma of witnessing the supernatural, too, can be roleplayed. Doesn't mean that Sanity in CoC or the Madness Meter in UA aren't fantastic game mechanics.

Hell, I view XP-for-GP as a genre emulation mechanic, hard-coding the almost universal cupidity of sword-and-sorcery protagonists into D&D's DNA. It's no wonder AD&D 2e dropped this rule after Dragonlance persuaded everyone that Romantic High Fantasy D&D was A Thing.

Yup, I was just thinking about XP for GP, since I use it in my 5e D&D game - it's a fantastic sword & sorcery genre emulation mechanic (unlike 3e/PF's focus on using gp to buy magic items). In Streets of Fire the Michael Pare character works hard to earn money, that he then throws back in the face of the guy who hired him - if you want behaviour like that, then xp for getting the money, and bonus xp for throwing it away (like the 'Arneson Rule' where you get XP for carousing away your GP), seems like the way to go. Likewise xp for rescuing Ellen Aim, XP for romancing Ellen Aim, bonus XP for leaving her at the end!
I generally find that xp is the perfect mechanism for incentivising a particular play mode, much better than Bennies, Inspiration etc which often feel anti-immersive. So I guess a list of the kind of things that should earn xp in the appropriate genre would be good.
Incidentally I don't find it matters much what the xp actually do, how levelling up actually progresses the pc - getting better at combat through doomed romance works just as well as getting better at combat through grubbing for gold pieces.

Quote from: trechriron;827516Good point.
That's cool. The first post here was a quote from you taken partly out of context.

I know it's partly out of context, but I'm  criticizing a very specific premise that about what the game specifically wanted to model (and maybe by implication, what the sources are about). I pretty much reject that premise outright.

I don't mind storygames mechanics. In fact, I actually like them but that's a different discussion from what I intended in the OP.

Quote from: The_Shadow;827531Do RPG's "model" anything? I thought they were their own thing. Give us some rules, we do some stuff, there are some genre trappings from other media.

I definitely believe some games do.  Mekton definitely models "real robot" mecha shows.  Marvel Super Heroes definitely attempts to model the action and story structure of 80s Marvel comics.  Doctor Who and it's initiative system are definitely using rules to attempt to model the new Doctor Who TV shows.

Quote from: S'mon;827589Yeah, my view is that you don't necessarily need mechanics (although positive feedback loop reward mechanisms are nice - reward players for their PCs acting like Streets of Fire characters, and they'll act like Streets of Fire characters) but you do need some GMing advice, which really wasn't in there. There wasn't really GMing advice for a cop game either, afaicr, even though Cop was one of the classes. Mechanically, the game I own (CP 2020) very very strongly incentivises playing Solos, since they will wipe the floor with everyone else in combat, and encourages a combat + netrun game; the Arasaka tower massacre without the romance element.

it really does, doesn't it? I tended not to play solos and my enjoyment on the game was very GM dependent.There was exactly one game that I enjoyed in which I wasn't a solo (I was a Corp). The one time I tried to play a Rockerboy, I got creamed right away because all the GM did was throw a cyberpsycho at me on the very first opening scene of the very first session.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827633I know it's partly out of context, but I'm  criticizing a very specific premise that about what the game specifically wanted to model (and maybe by implication, what the sources are about). I pretty much reject that premise outright.

I don't mind storygames mechanics. In fact, I actually like them but that's a different discussion from what I intended in the OP.

From my POV, you are confusing "storygame mechanics" with mechanics which encourage genre simulation.

Quote from: Gabriel2;827634I definitely believe some games do.  Mekton definitely models "real robot" mecha shows.  Marvel Super Heroes definitely attempts to model the action and story structure of 80s Marvel comics.  Doctor Who and it's initiative system are definitely using rules to attempt to model the new Doctor Who TV shows.

Outside of storygames, they tend to model physics and combat. Everything else is kind of left up to the GM (edit: and the players).

I'm not familiar with MSH, though. How does it attempt to model story structure?

Quote from: Gabriel2;827636From my POV, you are confusing "storygame mechanics" with mechanics which encourage genre simulation.

What are the differences, in your opinion?

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827637Outside of storygames, they tend to model physics and combat. Everything else is kind of left up to the GM.

I'm not familiar with MSH, though. How does it attempt to model story structure?

It attempts to encourage the types of behaviour you see in characters in the comics.  This is the Karma mechanic I mentioned earlier.

Karma is a pool of points you can use to influence die rolls.  Do good and heroic things, you get more Karma.  Do bad things, and you lose Karma.  Do something evil like killing, and you lose ALL your Karma.  But if you keep doing good stuff, you have these points to push yourself when needed.  

It's a mechanic for those scenes in comics where the hero dips into his reserve of willpower and determination, and finds the strength to act outside his/her parameters.  The same mechanic also makes other players want to keep a close eye on Wolverine so he doesn't kill anyone, because if he does then the whole team loses their Karma pool.

It reinforces the desired behaviour, just like XP for GP encourages characters in AD&D1e to seek out treasure above all else.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827639What are the differences, in your opinion?

To be perfectly honest, the only answer I can give to that question is, "I'll know it when I see it."

Quote from: trechriron;827516Good point.



That's cool. The first post here was a quote from you taken partly out of context.

I am not familiar with NBA. Most of the meta-game mechanics I'm familiar with involve points (fate, action, drama, conviction...) and rate from less intrusive (re-roll, avoid damage) to more intrusive (edit the plot, introduce something, take over GMing...). Also various "traits" that offer bonuses when you do something related to that trait - like having a lover, and any actions related to them giving you a bonus (or penalty). Also, the relationship mechanics in The Mountain Witch. After my stint with various games using these, I felt like they interfered with the experience.

I think it goes along with a fundamental concept (personal philosophy?): playing the game should be MOST rewarding. If the only awards that excite players are improvement, bonuses and cheats - then the game side takes center stage. If the experience is the paramount award, then involving yourself in shenanigans outside the basic things on your character sheet are likely to have more gravitas.

Sure, you can turn that stuff INTO a game. But in the end you are gaming something that really should have an emotional or internal impact. "I collected more relationships than you" may give a player a sense of accomplishment, but lacks any emotional context. Hell, it could cheapen any emotional context that may have been there to begin with.

I feel like a player who pursues such things of their own volition, based on the character's beliefs, motivations or desires to be more... substantive than a player motivated by a game mechanic. I generally come away from games with these mechanics with a sense that something was missing.

Of course, just my two cents, YMMV, and all that jazz. :-)

I can dig that.  I'm really interested in talking about rules because they fascinate me, but I'm also from a background where I ran a Beyond the Supernatural game and the reason why it was so damned fun is because of exactly the kind of phenomenon you're talking about.  We threw out all the rules regarding fear and sanity or whatever, because the players were so down with their characters that they knew when to act scared, when to change behavior and act like they were losing their heads.  That kind of play is fantastic; but I also thing it's unreliable, because it's a product of players at the table and the right group.  If you've got the right group, that kind of play is easy; but I don't know that everybody always has the right kind of group for that, and rules sometimes help ameliorate that issue.

Quote from: The_Shadow;827531Do RPG's "model" anything? I thought they were their own thing. Give us some rules, we do some stuff, there are some genre trappings from other media.

Skip the idea of modeling, and let's just talk about rules -- rules define how you do things in the game.  They funnel player action.  

A game, as other people have discussed, where you get experience points for gold piece acquisition and expenditure on whores and mead is qualitatively different than a game where you only get experience points for rolling skills.  Now, it might be that the former game is trying to model sword and sorcery, or it might just be that the game designer didn't want people to hold onto their gold and wanted them to blow it.  

So you've got three levels happening: you've got what the game designer intended the purpose of a rule to be.  You've got the rule as its written, the plain text, which may or may not communicate its purpose.  And you've got how people at tables all around the world take that rule and make it work, and what they use it for.

So my original post, which is partly quoted in the first post in this thread, was about how there's drift between those three steps.

Take Vampire.  Vampire: The Masquerade is ostensibly a game about vampires fighting to keep hold of their humanity in the face of temptations to boil it away in their nightly existence.  You've got a Humanity stat, you've got Virtues, all the quotes in the book are about "Beast I am Lest Beast I Become."  But the majority of players chose to make the game about Godfather with fangs.  It was about vampires being parasites on the face of the world, corrosive elements that corrupt via creating ghouls and amassing power.

That rift, between all the rules and support for what the designers intended, and what people actually played, and the dynamic that creates, that's what fascinates me.  You could say the rules were intended to model the Long Dark Night of the Soul that a vampire experiences, but what people actually used them for was quite different.  And eventually, the play happening at tables affected the direction of the whole line, and by the time you get to Vampire Second edition, the game supported much more of the way people were actually playing it.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;827648Take Vampire.  Vampire: The Masquerade is ostensibly a game about vampires fighting to keep hold of their humanity in the face of temptations to boil it away in their nightly existence.  You've got a Humanity stat, you've got Virtues, all the quotes in the book are about "Beast I am Lest Beast I Become."  But the majority of players chose to make the game about Godfather with fangs.  It was about vampires being parasites on the face of the world, corrosive elements that corrupt via creating ghouls and amassing power.

That rift, between all the rules and support for what the designers intended, and what people actually played, and the dynamic that creates, that's what fascinates me.  You could say the rules were intended to model the Long Dark Night of the Soul that a vampire experiences, but what people actually used them for was quite different.  And eventually, the play happening at tables affected the direction of the whole line, and by the time you get to Vampire Second edition, the game supported much more of the way people were actually playing it.

You may want to contrast this with the current World of Darkness post the God Machine Chronicle. Here we see kind of the opposite effect where the designers said, this is not hitting the style of play we want to encourage so lets tweak the rules and provide incentive to push games to capture the feel and tone we want to provide.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;827644I can dig that.  I'm really interested in talking about rules because they fascinate me, but I'm also from a background where I ran a Beyond the Supernatural game and the reason why it was so damned fun is because of exactly the kind of phenomenon you're talking about.  We threw out all the rules regarding fear and sanity or whatever, because the players were so down with their characters that they knew when to act scared, when to change behavior and act like they were losing their heads.  That kind of play is fantastic; but I also thing it's unreliable, because it's a product of players at the table and the right group.  If you've got the right group, that kind of play is easy; but I don't know that everybody always has the right kind of group for that, and rules sometimes help ameliorate that issue.

   This same approach was encouraged by the later 2E Ravenloft products--at several points, they stated "use fear and horror checks only if the players seem to be too disconnected from what their charactrs are experiencing and how they would react. If they react 'in character', don't hit them with the rules."

I don't buy the OP's point.

I think one of the things to be taken with a grain of salt, that's being danced around without completely implicit (though people are kinda pointing it out) is that you can't create an game within a specific genre and expect everyone to understand the conceits of the genre perfectly as the author might.

CP2020 is based on a *lot* of different sources. The 'narrative' of the game is essentially the backdrop of a fairly detailed world gone to shit. Is it believable? In parts. But it conveys its sources pretty well.

the problem of players "misusing" the game and turning it into something it was never intended is, to me, besides the point. As people have said Vampire: The Masquerade devolved in the hands of players that didn't know what the game was "really" about - but made it their own Trenchcoats and Katana fanged-superhero game.

What we're really talking about here is "Does breadth of experience impact game-genre conventions?" And the answer is most certainly yes.

If you read Cyberpunk's rules and ignore the "narrative" and backstory of the game - you'll get exactly what Pondsmith (and various players here) describe: how to maximize your character out with gear in order to not be damaged.

Is that what the game conventions are about? Not really. No more than if we were playing in the modern day real-life and your goal was to own your own nuclear weapon in order to declare your sovereign power.

But from a very high-level view of how nations operate - that's one thing that seems to be real.

And so what's missing is my age-old saw I constantly grind here: context.

CP2020 like any RPG needs to have a lens by which the GM focuses the context of the world. When I run CP2020, if you're walking around with metal-gear armor, and your highly modified FN-RAL with extended heavy-barrel, cyber-porting, hydraulic recoil mounts etc. and you think for a second the cops aren't going to come down on you like flies on greasy shit, well, then your idea of what CP2020 is and mine are different.

Dragon and Dungeons exist in D&D - it doesn't mean the entire world you play in the game only deals with those things.

Many people that play CP2020 in its heyday never read any of the stuff from Rucker, Gibson, Sterling, Barnes, or even Dick. It very much has a noir feel to it. But between them all - it's also Godfather, Lethal Weapon, Road Warrior, Heat, Blade Runner, Easy Rider, California, Apocalypse Now, Blood Sport, and 2010. But it's also Casablanca, and Chinatown with maybe some Fight Club.

With a couple of exceptions - none of those are explicitly "Cyberpunk" but the fact that powerful elements of these stories absolutely are vital for the concept. To what degree depends entirely on the GM's experience and handling of these elements WITH the system.

And that Interlock System works just fine. Love it. Love it to death.

The emergent gameplay from any game is bound to disappoint a lot old-timers when they watch newbs playing it without any credence to the material. Fuck, how many times do you see us complain about people bitching about fantasy when we're talking about Conan and Fafhrd and the Mouser - and they're talking about Cloud, and Tifa and trying to say they're "better" fantasy than the classic S&S fare? Are they? (the answer is no - but that's a different thread) - the larger point being that when trying to marry a system of mechanics to the narrative of a genre, it will always depend on the GM to make those conceits matter.

TL/DR -  You can't have cyborged-James Bond in CP2020 games where the GM actually understands what they're doing and why. It's not about the mechanics of the game to immerse the players. It's about the GM.

Quote from: tenbones;827715TL/DR -  You can't have cyborged-James Bond in CP2020 games where the GM actually understands what they're doing and why. It's not about the mechanics of the game to immerse the players. It's about the GM.

I certainly can if that's what I want to run.  Fuck "romance."  Give me guns, cash, and chrome.  Never mind the fact that nearly every supplement published back in the day was for "BOOM-BOOM POW: The Game."  How many Chromebooks were there?  Was the "Fourth Corporate War" modules a deep exploration of some literary hullabaloo or were they big nasty death?

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;827745I certainly can if that's what I want to run.  Fuck "romance."  Give me guns, cash, and chrome.  Never mind the fact that nearly every supplement published back in the day was for "BOOM-BOOM POW: The Game."  How many Chromebooks were there?  Was the "Fourth Corporate War" modules a deep exploration of some literary hullabaloo or were they big nasty death?

It was all a test. A test to see if we "got it". We didn't. We were enticed by all the explosions and big guns and kicking ass. Hell, even the hint at hotness and boobies couldn't distract us.

Just like the masses who made it out of high-school and failed Mr. Roddlesticks advanced biology test, we should all be ok.

Besides, a bunch of young punks missing the point and charging head-long into the oblivion of their choice is an important theme in the literature, no? Shit, most players were actually MORE PUNK because they bucked the high-brow establishment's expectations.

THAT'S fucking CHROME Brujahs.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;827745I certainly can if that's what I want to run.  Fuck "romance."  Give me guns, cash, and chrome.  Never mind the fact that nearly every supplement published back in the day was for "BOOM-BOOM POW: The Game."  How many Chromebooks were there?  Was the "Fourth Corporate War" modules a deep exploration of some literary hullabaloo or were they big nasty death?

Sure - but then you wouldn't be the guy complaining about "James Bond with cyber-gear" right? (I probably should have amended that at the end)

That's my point.

It doesn't matter whether or not Maximum Mike thinks "we got it wrong". What's right is "what works at your table".

Having said that, understanding Maximum Mike's POV and the sources he derived the game from might give a GM a bit more nuance to their respective games.

Otherwise it's like playing a Supers game and everyone wants to be Superman-level in power... and no one wants to be Spiderman, which is what the GM really wants to do.

Would you look at a GM any different for handing out +5 Vorpal Frostbrand Defenders to his characters in his group "just because they could" - if that's the kind of game they're playing? Would you say multi-classing by "class dipping" through 5-different classes for perks is "bad gaming" by D&D conceits of 3e? Well that's what various editions of D&D have been played as.

That's the same thing with GM's that let their CP2020 character run around fully borged-out with mil-spec weapons free of context of the world. You *can* play it that way, sure. "Fun" is what you make it... and all that.

Does it happen at my table? Nope. But that's because I run a different kind of game where the conceits of the game-world are understood by me and given context appropriate to my desires to GM those kinds of games. If I'm being snarky by pointing at campaigns that let their players get away with doing silly shit like being decked out an going on killing-binges free of context (regardless if you're playing Vampire, D&D, CP2020 or whatever) - it's probably because I find playing games like that boring. If that works for you - rock on.

Is it implicit in CP2020 to play that way? Only if your view of the rules feeds whatever narratives that drive you to play the game and your GM allows it. But using that reasoning - all games are an excuse to murder-hobo.

Quote from: tenbones;827766Having said that, understanding Maximum Mike's POV and the sources he derived the game from might give a GM a bit more nuance to their respective games.

Here's my problem: as far as the game itself goes, the sources don't matter.  You can take the sources and apply any rpg system you want with some effort.  Quyite simply, the game books themselves didn't deliver any of the shit he says they wanted to.  It was book after book of gear, bling, and ultraviolent encounters.  It doesn't mean it was a bad game, or that any of us are playing it wrong, but it does mean he shouldn't get on his fucking high horse and gripe about people playing the game as it was presented.

Quote from: Gabriel2;827432Pondsmith has stated this kind of thing for many years (decades even).  If you're looking for a print example, then look at Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads (the GM advice book for Cyberpunk).  He also does a brief aside about it in Cybergeneration, and has posted a few times online about his dissatisfaction with how players made Cyberpunk about "James Bond meets the Six Million Dollar Man" rather than what he envisioned.

Eff him and what he envisioned.  The game is what the players make of it. Eff anyone who says we're playing it wrong.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;827789Here's my problem: as far as the game itself goes, the sources don't matter.  You can take the sources and apply any rpg system you want with some effort.  Quyite simply, the game books themselves didn't deliver any of the shit he says they wanted to.  It was book after book of gear, bling, and ultraviolent encounters.  It doesn't mean it was a bad game, or that any of us are playing it wrong, but it does mean he shouldn't get on his fucking high horse and gripe about people playing the game as it was presented.

Even looking at the intro pages in the core book, it goes on at some length about how style is all important. Yet what is the immediate example? It sure as fuck isnt kissing under the rain or fucking in a coffin hotel. I see talk about leather armor jackets and mirror shades, about walking into a club with your H&K smart gun, etc.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827639What are the differences, in your opinion?

STG mechanics are about narrative control -- either determining who has it or specifying what they can do with it.

Genre emulation mechanics are about bringing some specific element of the source material into the game.

Some genre emulation mechanics are also narrative control mechanics, but not all of them. For example, you might have a rule that guns never have to be reloaded during a firefight. Or you might have an "aim for the bushes" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q86Rn4jETVk) mechanic that prevents a character from taking more than 1d6 falling damage if they spend an action to aim for something soft.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827635it really does, doesn't it? I tended not to play solos and my enjoyment on the game was very GM dependent.There was exactly one game that I enjoyed in which I wasn't a solo (I was a Corp). The one time I tried to play a Rockerboy, I got creamed right away because all the GM did was throw a cyberpsycho at me on the very first opening scene of the very first session.

Ok. Let's see if I can compose this thought of mine.

There's this paradigm of D&D being a string of combats broken up by talking in bad english accents. Now, the reason I think 4th edition was as popular as it was, is because combat is easy. Kill these monsters before they kill you is pretty freaking easy to do. Clear goals, clear stakes, all that shit.
4th ed put the emphasis on player choices into the combat itself. Now you could twirl over a bad guy or shuffle 3 squares and make an attack, whatever. There was a ton of choice in the tactical presentation.
But those aren't the only kinds of choices. If you make a character who is sub-optimal for combat, but most, if not all, of the interaction with the game is combat, then you're going to have a bad time. So 4th made everyone capable in combat, and that was to the detriment of the game, because now combat was even more emphasised as the way to interact with the game.

Now, I don't think putting in mechanics for kissing under streetlights would make things better. I think putting in choices that matter to the character would. As in, you need to know what the character is about, and then have opportunites for the player to make choices based on that character's... character.
The simplistic way to state it is: Put in more non-combat stuff. But then it's not automatically going to be meaningful stuff unless the player has to make some choices, and those choices should have some amount of conflict (in this case, not meaning combat) to make the choices meaningful to the character.

Am I making sense? I've been working on reducing this idea down to a pithy sentence or two, but not making much headway.

You know the more I think about it the more the OOP reminds me of the time Ryan Dancey flounced in here and proclaimed that what people who liked AD&D really wanted to play was in fact Dogs in the Vineyard as it was so much better at something something Greyhawk then he ran off.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;827841The simplistic way to state it is: Put in more non-combat stuff. But then it's not automatically going to be meaningful stuff unless the player has to make some choices, and those choices should have some amount of conflict (in this case, not meaning combat) to make the choices meaningful to the character.

Am I making sense? I've been working on reducing this idea down to a pithy sentence or two, but not making much headway.

Yes. When designing Red Shetland I considered exactly this. Rules to govern the interaction side of the game. Of which there was lots. But the rules themselve at that point had no real interaction mechanics. As noted elsewhere, there was not even an intelligence stat. Nor was there a charisma equivalent.

Very quickly I realized the game did not need these mechanics. But the game did need mention that there was no INT or CHA stat, no romance/seduction skill, no political intrigue rules, because that was all on the player and the GM. If you want it in the game. Go out and find it.

And the players did.

This is one reason why BX combined with Keep on the Borderlands is still one of my go-to examples of rules + module because it shows that there is more to the game than just a kill fest. Heres a town and here is all these people with their own little stories you can make of what you will.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;827789Here's my problem: as far as the game itself goes, the sources don't matter.  You can take the sources and apply any rpg system you want with some effort.  Quyite simply, the game books themselves didn't deliver any of the shit he says they wanted to.  It was book after book of gear, bling, and ultraviolent encounters.  It doesn't mean it was a bad game, or that any of us are playing it wrong, but it does mean he shouldn't get on his fucking high horse and gripe about people playing the game as it was presented.

That's the follow-on from my original thought regarding drift between what the designer intends or wants and then what happens at the table -- as I said, the next step for a good game is to follow what the players at tables are doing.  

If Game Designer A wants his game to be like Star Wars, but instead everybody plays it like samurai in space, then follow-on supplements focusing on the samurai in space is not a bad thing.  It's a good thing.  I can name a couple games off of the top of my head where either a) the designer didn't listen to the fans and kept heading where he wanted, and the game died, or b) the game absolutely got the read off of the fans right, shifted directions, and became a hit.

My formula is, a) look at what the core rulebook says it should do; b) look at what the core rulebook actually does, by creating rules; c) look at what people then use those rules for at their tables.  There's usually a big drift between a, b, and c for a lot of games.

QuoteOk. Let's see if I can compose this thought of mine.

There's this paradigm of D&D being a string of combats broken up by talking in bad english accents. Now, the reason I think 4th edition was as popular as it was, is because combat is easy. Kill these monsters before they kill you is pretty freaking easy to do. Clear goals, clear stakes, all that shit.
4th ed put the emphasis on player choices into the combat itself. Now you could twirl over a bad guy or shuffle 3 squares and make an attack, whatever. There was a ton of choice in the tactical presentation.
But those aren't the only kinds of choices. If you make a character who is sub-optimal for combat, but most, if not all, of the interaction with the game is combat, then you're going to have a bad time. So 4th made everyone capable in combat, and that was to the detriment of the game, because now combat was even more emphasised as the way to interact with the game.

Now, I don't think putting in mechanics for kissing under streetlights would make things better. I think putting in choices that matter to the character would. As in, you need to know what the character is about, and then have opportunites for the player to make choices based on that character's... character.
The simplistic way to state it is: Put in more non-combat stuff. But then it's not automatically going to be meaningful stuff unless the player has to make some choices, and those choices should have some amount of conflict (in this case, not meaning combat) to make the choices meaningful to the character.

Am I making sense? I've been working on reducing this idea down to a pithy sentence or two, but not making much headway.

Yes, very much.

My contention with the premise I quoted is that there is little or next to nothing that indicates that the game “wanted” to model any of the things the OP in the TBP thread says it did. I’m looking through my pdf copy of the game, and even when giving examples of style and mood, they’re [edit: almost] all about violence. There is ONE sidebar in the “Running Cyberpunk” section that I’ve seen mention doomed romance, etc. Listing sources doesn’t convince me either that there was any intent of modeling romance and what not, because 1) most of those sources are not necessarily about that and 2) Pondsmith doesn’t give any indication in the book that he was focusing on those elements within the sources.

My reading of the core book  seems to indicate that Pondsmith’s primary concern was to model violence, but in a much more gritty way, not in the cyber-tanked manner that emerged.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;827837STG mechanics are about narrative control -- either determining who has it or specifying what they can do with it.

Genre emulation mechanics are about bringing some specific element of the source material into the game.

Some genre emulation mechanics are also narrative control mechanics, but not all of them. For example, you might have a rule that guns never have to be reloaded during a firefight. Or you might have an "aim for the bushes" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q86Rn4jETVk) mechanic that prevents a character from taking more than 1d6 falling damage if they spend an action to aim for something soft.

Thanks. I can live with that delineation. Seems to me that genre emulation can straddle the story-game/rpg 'divide'.

Now, imagine an alternate history where instead of Chainmail, we got sophisticated rules for modeling relationships (maybe something like The Sims). What would all the RPG descendants look like, and what would these discussions look like?

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827884Now, imagine an alternate history where instead of Chainmail, we got sophisticated rules for modeling relationships (maybe something like The Sims). What would all the RPG descendants look like, and what would these discussions look like?

"Was the designer of Cyberpunk trying to create a more combat - heavy, wargame - like game? Perhaps that was the intent, for the players to engage in deadly, quick action, rather than focus on the role - playing of intimacies?"

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827805It sure as fuck isnt kissing under the rain or fucking in a coffin hotel.

God damn, you are so hung up on that one thing.

Quote from: Gabriel2;827893God damn, you are so hung up on that one thing.

That's the one thing I was criticizing in the OP. The assertion of what this game "wanted to model." Not my fault if the topic has drifted to something else.

Once you take that premise apart, most of the argument falls down with it, and Pondsmith's problem with the emergent play can probably be fixed with tweaks to what exists and some guidance, rather than rebuilt from the ground up with a different paradigm.

Other than that, if you have a point to make about the topic go ahead.

I think that divergence between how the designers envisioned people playing a game and what people actually sitting around the table do with that game is usually a healthy sign rather than the opposite.

If a game totally fails at what it set out to do then I suppose that's a problem. But if it also does x, y and z and people enjoy that as much or more than the original intent, I don't see any problem.

Most games that have had real staying power (D&D, CoC, & etc) have supported multiple play styles. Cyberpunk certainly did, at least with my group back in the day.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827884Now, imagine an alternate history where instead of Chainmail, we got sophisticated rules for modeling relationships (maybe something like The Sims). What would all the RPG descendants look like, and what would these discussions look like?

Wargames.

Because nearly right out the gate players took D&D and started running romances despite there being no real indicator you even could. They took what was there and ran with it. By many accounts they ran far with it. Big sweeping romances? Generational families?

So by that token players would have taken a romantic themed OD&D and somehow turned it into a wargame.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;827789Here's my problem: as far as the game itself goes, the sources don't matter.  You can take the sources and apply any rpg system you want with some effort.  Quyite simply, the game books themselves didn't deliver any of the shit he says they wanted to.  It was book after book of gear, bling, and ultraviolent encounters.  It doesn't mean it was a bad game, or that any of us are playing it wrong, but it does mean he shouldn't get on his fucking high horse and gripe about people playing the game as it was presented.

I'm not disagreeing with you. This is chicken/egg for me. Before Cyberpunk ever landed, I had already read everything in genre up to that point. I knew exactly what the game was implied to be about. It didn't any rules for "kissing in a coffin" (our characters just fucked in them. C'mon we had the Midnight Lady and Donkey-Kong implants!!! or whatever they were called) - at any rate, I already knew the conventions. So it was almost impossible for me to NOT use them in my games, at least at first. Some of my games were very themed - like wars, space, Euro-assassin rings. Organized crime. Sometimes all of the above.

That said - a lot of those books were based on non-science-fiction genre noir and action-movies. Being that I lived internationally, in Japan and other parts thereabout, I was very familiar with the alienation and technoshock that Mike was trying to imply.

If people didn't have those points of reference, it would be difficult to emulate them in the game with any degree of accuracy. He *shouldn't* be angry at the people that are not "doing it right". He should understand that there are no RPG's that can have a One True Way.

But having said that - for someone that does generally understand those intents and is a good GM, I'm of the opinion that using those things will make the game better.

Quote from: tenbones;827915C'mon we had the Midnight Lady and Donkey-Kong implants!!! or whatever they were called)

I'm in the office. Lets see if I can get this quote from memory.

"The Mr. Stud Sexual Implant, all night every night and she'll never know."

Or something like that. It was some of those things that cracked us up when we first read the book. Something I'm surprised hasn't been talked about more are the roles and the text around them. Then again, did anyone ever play a Rocker or Media?

Quote from: Certified;827917I'm in the office. Lets see if I can get this quote from memory.

"The Mr. Stud Sexual Implant, all night every night and she'll never know."

Or something like that. It was some of those things that cracked us up when we first read the book. Something I'm surprised hasn't been talked about more are the roles and the text around them. Then again, did anyone ever play a Rocker or Media?

Oh man! that's it! Mr. Stud!

So for my games - there was this odd emergent thing. At first everyone wanted to be a Solo. Then slowly, but surely, they started to drift into other roles. One of my most trigger-happy, gun-bunny players, eventually settled on Med-Techs and Medias as his favorite. He'd load up on Video Editing as a skill and he'd film people, usually wealthy people, and then cut the video to make them look like they're doing horrible things. But he'd stack his editing skills so high it was virtually impossible to detect them as fake. Then he'd send in the fast-talking Rocker (he was the Rabble-rouser alternate role) and the one lone Solo to blackmail the mark.

His Med-tech was just a full-on Body-banker. He'd find people that were "undesireable" and wouldn't be noticed if they disappeared... and then tazer them, dismember them, and bank the parts. Yeah... the dude was twisted.

Quote from: tenbones;827921Oh man! that's it! Mr. Stud!

So for my games - there was this odd emergent thing. At first everyone wanted to be a Solo. Then slowly, but surely, they started to drift into other roles. One of my most trigger-happy, gun-bunny players, eventually settled on Med-Techs and Medias as his favorite. He'd load up on Video Editing as a skill and he'd film people, usually wealthy people, and then cut the video to make them look like they're doing horrible things. But he'd stack his editing skills so high it was virtually impossible to detect them as fake. Then he'd send in the fast-talking Rocker (he was the Rabble-rouser alternate role) and the one lone Solo to blackmail the mark.

His Med-tech was just a full-on Body-banker. He'd find people that were "undesireable" and wouldn't be noticed if they disappeared... and then tazer them, dismember them, and bank the parts. Yeah... the dude was twisted.

Nice

I think the longest running character I ever had was a Cop with a terrible Authority role. I think his arc mostly centered around trying to prove he should be on C-SWAT and ending up in the hospital. This climaxed with a botched leg replacement and a freak out at the station, only to be taken out by the team he wanted to be a member of.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827882My reading of the core book  seems to indicate that Pondsmith's primary concern was to model violence, but in a much more gritty way, not in the cyber-tanked manner that emerged.

Yeah, that's  good way to put it.
Combat is an easy road to go down. Making stats for guns and armor and bad guys is a seductive way to pump out supplements. And I'm saying this as a guy who likes guns and armor and bad guys. But it can easily become an arms race.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;827934Yeah, that's  good way to put it.
Combat is an easy road to go down. Making stats for guns and armor and bad guys is a seductive way to pump out supplements. And I'm saying this as a guy who likes guns and armor and bad guys. But it can easily become an arms race.

One of the comments I got after publishing Fractured Kingdom was that the reader lost interest after he saw there were weights for the gear, guns armor, etc. The way the reader interpreted that entry is that the game was more concerned about combat and tactical play than the narrative. Weight/encumbrance rules being an indicator of that style of play. This is something that has stuck with me as that's not the style of play I wanted to encourage but this small detail sent the reader's mind in that direction. I guess what I'm saying is, it's surprising what details can be important to readers  and small details can have a huge impact on how they interpret the material.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;827934Yeah, that's  good way to put it.
Combat is an easy road to go down. Making stats for guns and armor and bad guys is a seductive way to pump out supplements. And I'm saying this as a guy who likes guns and armor and bad guys. But it can easily become an arms race.

Actually, I should amend that a little and also say that along with that there's a lot of concern with the style and mood of the setting, but as a background to the violence.

Quote from: Certified;827937One of the comments I got after publishing Fractured Kingdom was that the reader lost interest after he saw there were weights for the gear, guns armor, etc. The way the reader interpreted that entry is that the game was more concerned about combat and tactical play than the narrative. Weight/encumbrance rules being an indicator of that style of play.

I think that's similar to when I look at 'horror' RPGs and find they have a HUGE section of gun porn... differentiating the picayune details of dozens of weapons. Some Players, seeing that section in the core book, are going to take that as a cue to focus on guns for solving their problems and get all caught up in the trivia. Meanwhile, IMO, guns in horror oughtta be false comfort... they make a character feel safe up till the moment when, in hubris, he faces the monster and finds that bullets won't kill it.

Also, while watching Streets of Fire for the first time the other night (because of this discussion) I noticed there was one quick reference to some custom weapons early on... and after that the whole thing could have played out with weapon rules delineating nothing more than generic 'pistol', 'rifle', 'shotgun', 'switchblade', 'sledgehammer' and 'fists'.

Quote from: Certified;827923Nice

I think the longest running character I ever had was a Cop with a terrible Authority role. I think his arc mostly centered around trying to prove he should be on C-SWAT and ending up in the hospital. This climaxed with a botched leg replacement and a freak out at the station, only to be taken out by the team he wanted to be a member of.

Yeah you could get a lot of mileage out of that.

I've done things that I think everyone has done before too - Trauma Team campaigns. I've seen people do the same in Shadowrun.

Quote from: Simlasa;827958I think that's similar to when I look at 'horror' RPGs and find they have a HUGE section of gun porn... differentiating the picayune details of dozens of weapons. Some Players, seeing that section in the core book, are going to take that as a cue to focus on guns for solving their problems and get all caught up in the trivia. Meanwhile, IMO, guns in horror oughtta be false comfort... they make a character feel safe up till the moment when, in hubris, he faces the monster and finds that bullets won't kill it.

Also, while watching Streets of Fire for the first time the other night (because of this discussion) I noticed there was one quick reference to some custom weapons early on... and after that the whole thing could have played out with weapon rules delineating nothing more than generic 'pistol', 'rifle', 'shotgun', 'switchblade', 'sledgehammer' and 'fists'.

I find this gets in the way of my Hunter: The Vigil games. Especially with the Armory Books. I love those books but it oftens sends my players down "the wrong path" where they believe everything can/should be solved with MAGNUM FORCE... it inevitably turns the PC's into the actual monsters once they start racking up the bystander bodycount....

Quote from: Certified;827937One of the comments I got after publishing Fractured Kingdom was that the reader lost interest after he saw there were weights for the gear, guns armor, etc. The way the reader interpreted that entry is that the game was more concerned about combat and tactical play than the narrative. Weight/encumbrance rules being an indicator of that style of play. This is something that has stuck with me as that's not the style of play I wanted to encourage but this small detail sent the reader's mind in that direction. I guess what I'm saying is, it's surprising what details can be important to readers  and small details can have a huge impact on how they interpret the material.

I think there's a place for detailed stats and systems like encumbrance.
The film, Alien is a narrative. We don't need to know how much a flamethrower weighs, or what the physical strength stat of the xenomorph is, because it's going to do what the narrative requires of it. They only have to be concerned if it's 'realistic', as in the flamethrower didn't shoot radioactive bees or some crazy crap.
But if Alien were an RPG scenario, then there is no predetermined narrative, and the weight of the flamethrower or the strength stat of the xenomorph are necessary, to allow the GM to judge what happens if the characters want to carry 15 flamethrowers, or if the xenomorph attacks a character. Because while the film had a specific narrative, an RPG doesn't. The scenario might end up with all the characters dead, or all the characters alive. They might manage to kill the xeno within the first 15 minutes, or take multiple sessions of running around to resolve things.
We need to fill in the small details because RPG scenarios require them to allow the group to resolve situations.

I think a big part of the problem is that a lot has been written and said about running combats, and relativley little on making satisfying and fun scenarios, whether they involve lots of combat or none at all. The topic seems to trail off into vague suggestions because there's no hard values to number crunch. And worse, the discussion about scenario structure seems to be talked about on blogs and articles, and not in the rulebooks or adventures themselves. For example, Keep on the Borderlands can be a boring hack fest or an interesting environment for the group to interact with, depending on how that group runs it. And I think more discussion, in the rulebooks themselves on how to make those scenarios interesting, would be a very good idea.

Quote from: Simlasa;827958Also, while watching Streets of Fire for the first time the other night (because of this discussion) I noticed there was one quick reference to some custom weapons early on... and after that the whole thing could have played out with weapon rules delineating nothing more than generic 'pistol', 'rifle', 'shotgun', 'switchblade', 'sledgehammer' and 'fists'.

Also, no one dies in Streets of Fire! 'Questions of Honour' are meaningful in SoF because almost everyone has honour - everyone except the racist cops in the brown uniforms (they take a bribe then pull the bus anyway - putting them beyond the pale). Even the bad-guy bikers seem to have some kind of honour code.

That sort of thing seems totally, utterly absent from Cyberpunk, both game and genre. It extols shooting your enemy in the back while he's having a drink.

Quote from: S'mon;828022That sort of thing seems totally, utterly absent from Cyberpunk, both game and genre. It extols shooting your enemy in the back while he's having a drink.

After Gibson and Sterling I never did read much good cyberpunk so I'm not really sure what goes in the genre beyond general corporatist dystopia and rainy street scenes. It does seem like 'Future Noir' to me.  
Most of my influences for when I ran such games were out of movies like Liquid Sky, Metropolis and Bladerunner... a bit of Judge Dredd... various 'new wave' music videos... and Max Headroom. Mostly stuff where guns and fancy gear didn't feature all that much. I hadn't watched much anime at the time except for Speed Racer.

Quote from: tenbones;827959Yeah you could get a lot of mileage out of that.

I've done things that I think everyone has done before too - Trauma Team campaigns. I've seen people do the same in Shadowrun.

That would more or less be me. I played a Rigger who ran a road rescue and repair business in Shadowrun. I also did frequent run-gone-very-bad rescue service.

Quote from: Simlasa;828044After Gibson and Sterling I never did read much good cyberpunk so I'm not really sure what goes in the genre beyond general corporatist dystopia and rainy street scenes. It does seem like 'Future Noir' to me.  

After I ran out of Gibson stuff to read, I tried Snowcrash but hated it because Stephenson is a horrible hack of a writer. So I tried to track other works by some of the authors in the Mirrorshades anthology and was able to read some of John Shirley's early stuff. The Eclipse (Song of Youth) trilogy was good, but I found City Come A'walking more interesting because it had many of the genre's tropes before Gibson even hit the map.

I was also able to get my hands on a copy of Tom Maddox's (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Maddox) Halo, which I thought was excellent. I have Wetware in my library, but I'm missing the previous books. Shockwave Rider is also on the pile to read as well as "The Stars My Destination (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stars_My_Destination)", who someone once said had some elements that Cyberpunk later cribbed.

Other than that, Blade Runner, BGC, Black Magic M-66, New Rose Hotel, Strange Days, Nemesis and Hardware (with an Iggy Pop voice cameo) on the movie side also scratched my itch for the genre.

Funny thing is that I got into the genre because of the RPG.

One of the few cyberpunk books I read was Arachne by Lisa Mason (Though I recall it having the title Spinner? Probably misremembering) Came out around the same time as Shadowrun and 2nd ed Cyberpunk. Was interesting for featuring an Aztec themed sector in one chapter.

There's some awesome 80s cyberpunk Manga/anime - Ghost in the Shell in particular.

I'm not a huge cyberpunk buff, but I did really like Babylon AD (the film with Vin Diesel) as a post-80's cyberpunk story.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;828158I'm not a huge cyberpunk buff, but I did really like Babylon AD (the film with Vin Diesel) as a post-80's cyberpunk story.

I want to say that was based on like the second or third book in a series.

I take issues with the idea that RPGs are supposed to "model" anything.

Quote from: Piestrio;828172I take issues with the idea that RPGs are supposed to "model" anything.

That's a fair point. I think an RPG can encourage certain behaviors in the players. If I want to run a cyberpunk campaign that's more film noir and less milspec, it's good to know how to set up the game to run like that. Especially if the players are expecting film noir, you probably don't want the game to go off into power armor mercenary types of scenarios.

Quote from: Piestrio;828172I take issues with the idea that RPGs are supposed to "model" anything.

Model a theme or setting and characters? Yes. Quite a few do.

Model the stories in how they play out? Kinda. Seen it tried. Rarely works.

Be used by players to model the stories? Yes. If all are on board to give it a go.

Others go the opposite route. Open themed like D&D or Cyberpunk 2020 did.

Quote from: Piestrio;828172I take issues with the idea that RPGs are supposed to "model" anything.

I don't.  I play Mutants and Masterminds when I want to model Superheroes for example.

From the horse's mouth (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/02/05/mike-pondsmith-talks-reinventing-cyberpunk/):

Quote“Cyberpunk 2020 is about key places, characters and technologies,” he said. “You have to have characters like Morgan, Johnny Silverhand and Alt'; they’re fan faves that have generated tons of fan fiction. You can’t have Cyberpunk 2020 without the evil ninja-corp Arasaka and it’s paranoid corporate heads. Places like the Afterlife; the Forlorn Hope – these are the sites where a million adventures started in so many player’s own games. CD Projekt’s team are fans, and they get that these things are important; that they make Cyberpunk what it is. They remember things I’ve forgotten about my own world sometimes.”

Quote"...And Grand Theft Auto 3 is basically cyberpunk minus the hardware.”

Quote"“In the end, there has to be the right atmosphere. All echoes and dark city caverns. The right level of engagement. A world of human scaled characters fighting inhuman organizations, using technology to level to odds – but not to become supermen."

More (http://obskures.de/2013/cyberpunk-2077-an-interview-with-mike-pondsmith/):

Quoteobskures.de: Please add the most important inspirations to get the player(s) in the “right mood”.

Mike Pondsmith: Go downtown at midnight and stand outside in the cold rain. Wait to get mugged. Beat down the mugger instead. Or barring that, watch Blade Runner, followed by Max Headroom, followed by Ghost in the Shell, drink a couple shots of cheap whiskey and end up the night listening to some really good trance, electronica or dubstep. While making love to your heavily tattooed girlfriend.

Quote"...And Grand Theft Auto 3 is basically cyberpunk minus the hardware."

And most people spend their time in that game running down pedestrians and running from the cops. So players going off any playing with the parts they find the most amusing shouldn't strike anyone as much of a surprise.

Looking over the books lately and I have to say, it has all it needs to model a character with a life. Only it fits on few pages and most people probably don't look at it after character creation. Not that I find that a bad thing, I just don't expect many folks to run with it.

Quote from: MrHurst;837102And most people spend their time in that game running down pedestrians and running from the cops. So players going off any playing with the parts they find the most amusing shouldn't strike anyone as much of a surprise.

You forgot the prostitution murder.  As having sex with streetwalkers healed you, but cost you money, you simply ran them over after you were done and got your money back!

And for the record, I absolutely despise the GTA series, probably unfairly for that sort of behaviour that my former roommates loved to do...

What did Cyberpunk 2020 want to really model?

If I recall correctly, rock 'n roll revolutionaries, biker clans, gunshot wound-induced fatal system shock, militarized corporate security, inhumane cyborg disasters and heavily armed flying ambulances.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827423According to a conversation posted in TBP (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?754612-Cyberpunk-Gaming-Bleeding-Edge-Emergent-Gameplay-and-Eric-Brennan):



I call bullshit. I don't see anything at all in its core about being that. I see rules for firefights, cyberdecking, etc. Hell, I don't even see what is being claimed above in the fluff surrounding it.

Am I blind?

It's really funny, but the bolded part of your post?
It's something Ron Edwards wrote years ago:D. Except he used Twilight 2000 as an example, IIRC.

Quote from: Certified;827937One of the comments I got after publishing Fractured Kingdom was that the reader lost interest after he saw there were weights for the gear, guns armor, etc. The way the reader interpreted that entry is that the game was more concerned about combat and tactical play than the narrative. Weight/encumbrance rules being an indicator of that style of play. This is something that has stuck with me as that's not the style of play I wanted to encourage but this small detail sent the reader's mind in that direction. I guess what I'm saying is, it's surprising what details can be important to readers  and small details can have a huge impact on how they interpret the material.

Well, that's quite similar to the reason I haven't played Fractured Kingdom after having purchased it. Although in my case it's "combat simulator urban fantasy with cyberpunk leanings, I've got another couple already".
That is, I might use it some day, when I want a more combat-heavy game of cyberpunk heists among supernaturals. But my group is good at following hints from the mechanics, and if I run it? They're going to do what the system rewards.
The problem is, I got it while I wanted to run a more heroic kind of game. Being a decent person while living in this setting isn't rewarded in any way, shape or form AFAICT. Being a bastard is, however.
If I'm wrong there, please point me to the mechanic, and I might revise my estimate.

Quote from: tenbones;827962I find this gets in the way of my Hunter: The Vigil games. Especially with the Armory Books. I love those books but it oftens sends my players down "the wrong path" where they believe everything can/should be solved with MAGNUM FORCE... it inevitably turns the PC's into the actual monsters once they start racking up the bystander bodycount....

Yeah. That's exactly the kind of stories that combat simulator games that don't account for the characters' mind states tend to give you. And I mean constant accounting, Pendragon-style, not "roll if you do something bad".

Quote from: Ratman_tf;827964I think there's a place for detailed stats and systems like encumbrance.
The film, Alien is a narrative. We don't need to know how much a flamethrower weighs, or what the physical strength stat of the xenomorph is, because it's going to do what the narrative requires of it. They only have to be concerned if it's 'realistic', as in the flamethrower didn't shoot radioactive bees or some crazy crap.

Yes.

QuoteBut if Alien were an RPG scenario, then there is no predetermined narrative, and the weight of the flamethrower or the strength stat of the xenomorph are necessary,

What for?

Quoteto allow the GM to judge what happens if the characters want to carry 15 flamethrowers,

He or she makes so much noise the xenomorph has no issues ambushing him or her. On top of clanking, they get into each other's way, you can't pull them out fast because they tangle, and overall, the benefits are heavily outweighed.

Quoteor if the xenomorph attacks a character.

The character dies as soon as the xenomporph reaches him or her.

QuoteBecause while the film had a specific narrative, an RPG doesn't. The scenario might end up with all the characters dead, or all the characters alive. They might manage to kill the xeno within the first 15 minutes, or take multiple sessions of running around to resolve things.

Yeah, they might. But the exact weight of the flamethrower is totally orthogonal to any of these results.

QuoteI think a big part of the problem is that a lot has been written and said about running combats, and relativley little on making satisfying and fun scenarios, whether they involve lots of combat or none at all. The topic seems to trail off into vague suggestions because there's no hard values to number crunch. And worse, the discussion about scenario structure seems to be talked about on blogs and articles, and not in the rulebooks or adventures themselves. For example, Keep on the Borderlands can be a boring hack fest or an interesting environment for the group to interact with, depending on how that group runs it. And I think more discussion, in the rulebooks themselves on how to make those scenarios interesting, would be a very good idea.

That, on the other hand, I fully agree with.

Quote from: S'mon;828022Also, no one dies in Streets of Fire! 'Questions of Honour' are meaningful in SoF because almost everyone has honour - everyone except the racist cops in the brown uniforms (they take a bribe then pull the bus anyway - putting them beyond the pale). Even the bad-guy bikers seem to have some kind of honour code.

That sort of thing seems totally, utterly absent from Cyberpunk, both game and genre. It extols shooting your enemy in the back while he's having a drink.

From the game, maybe.
From the genre? I'm not nearly so sure.

Quote from: Piestrio;828172I take issues with the idea that RPGs are supposed to "model" anything.

As soon as you have any rule, it's modelling something.
Opposed Strength+Brawling skill models the fact that the strongest with the most experience has an advantage in a fight. Thus players who want to win fights tend to train for strength and to acquire skill. That's modelling, too.
It is not, however, suitable for the kind of genres where the purity of heart or the strength of your passions is the deciding factor about who wins.
But whether you take issue with it or not, there are enough games that are good enough at it that you're either going to behave in the way the genre expects from you, or you'll be shooting yourself in the foot. Sometimes, literally.

And since we mentioned honour, there are two options. I'm going to use swashbuckling as an example, but you can as well apply it to wuxia, martial arts stories, thrillers that deal with trust and betrayal, and so on.
A game that's about honourable swashbuckling, disarming enemies instead of killing, and carving your initials on your enemy while fencing with him, can go two ways.

First, you can incentivize this behaviour. Honor+Intrigue does exactly that. In my experience, players start behaving like literary swashbucklers as soon as they get what the rules are incentivising. That is usually on first reading, since it's not really complicated:).

Or you can go the other way. Make the game a pure combat simulator, and have betrayal be as efficient as it normally is. That means you're relying on the player buy-in to be honourable swashbucklers.
If they have this buy-in, you get to watch their PCs act honourably despite realising that they're in an uncaring universe. One could speculate that this is what real swashbucklers would be doing. You want the perfect system for that? Run Flashing Blades;).

But you're de facto pushing them to act unhonourably, because it's usually easier, especially in the short term. And many players are going to succumb to the temptation. I know, I've run Flashing Blades:p!

On the other hand, if you want your game to be a 17th century caper story with rapiers, you can do it perfectly with Flashing Blades. There will be little or no contradictions between the system and the expected behaviour:D.
One could even argue that the "uncaring universe" that Jack Vance's stories are so popular for, is at least in part responsible for the overall tone of the stories being like "fantasy capers". See: Cugel. And the fact that Dying Earth is a major inspiration for D&D might have something to do with the system's specifics, too.

Quote from: AsenRG;837369It's really funny, but the bolded part of your post?
It's something Ron Edwards wrote years ago:D. Except he used Twilight 2000 as an example, IIRC.

Huh. Time for me to google that. Was it the System Matters essay?

As much as I loved CP I think its setting's reliance on big-name NPCs as kind of good-guy anarchists versus bad-guy corporations was not so cyberpunk as you might think.

Shadowrun had similar issues too.

Quote from: Gabriel2;827432and has posted a few times online about his dissatisfaction with how players made Cyberpunk about "James Bond meets the Six Million Dollar Man" rather than what he envisioned.

Those were the gamers I stayed away from that had the RPG. I blame the TSR world.

"James Bond meets the Six Million Dollar Man"

I think this was kinda inevitable once you started blowing the "metal is better than meat" horn in front of (most) gamers.
I mean... just read the Silverhand lyrics on CP's cover...

Quote from: artikid;837761"James Bond meets the Six Million Dollar Man"

I think this was kinda inevitable once you started blowing the "metal is better than meat" horn in front of (most) gamers.
I mean... just read the Silverhand lyrics on CP's cover...

Because it's acknowledging the crass and commerically programmed nature of people within the game. That is what cyberpunk fiction rails about. the desensitization and even alienation created by a purely commercial-surface driven society.

Silverhand is/was part of that as a "celebrity".

Again, I fall back to the position that it's up the GM to make the world come alive. You cant' expect a book to do the work for you, as a GM. You need to read it, absorb it, figure out what you want to do with it and get to the point where you can extemporaneously generate content for it because you understand it. If you're just reading tables, rolling dice, and whiffing scenes out free of context... then yeah, you're going to lose coherence.

That goes for *any* genre of game.

Quote from: AsenRG;837369Being a decent person while living in this setting isn't rewarded in any way, shape or form AFAICT. Being a bastard is, however.
If I'm wrong there, please point me to the mechanic, and I might revise my estimate.

Where's the mechanic in our world that rewards not being a bastard and instead being a decent person?

If your players are the type that always become murder-hobos in D&D because there is no OOC third person personality mechanic to restrain them...

1. Get new players
or
2. Suggest they roleplay.

Quote from: CRKrueger;837966Where's the mechanic in our world that rewards not being a bastard and instead being a decent person?

Peer pressure. Although internal sense of guilt seems more important, and may be as much or more an evolved characteristic in certain population groups than a result of cultural conditioning.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_omnium_contra_omnes

Man, is there a way to include nested quotes? This is annoying.

Quote from: AsenRG;837369He or she makes so much noise the xenomorph has no issues ambushing him or her. On top of clanking, they get into each other's way, you can't pull them out fast because they tangle, and overall, the benefits are heavily outweighed.

So how many flamethrowers can my character carry without being... encumbered? Can I dual wield flamethrowers? Would it be better to use one flamethrower and carry more fuel instead? I might need some stats for my character to make those kinds of decisions.

QuoteThe character dies as soon as the xenomporph reaches him or her.

In the film, this is pretty much the result. But it stems from an important question "How can we beat the xenomorph?" In hindsight, for a 15 year old movie, we know that getting in a hugging match with the xenomorph is a terrible idea. But the characters didn't know that at first. In fact, they didn't even know the thing would grow up so fast. And when characters in an RPG scenario start asking those kinds of questions, they need more fidelity for the details in order to make decisions in how to handle things. Could the xenomorph be crushed under a shipping container full of space-ore? Or trapped in a closet? Would a bunch of ball bearings in the hallway cause it to trip? GMs and players need details to make those kinds of determinations.

Quote from: tenbones;837965Because it's acknowledging the crass and commerically programmed nature of people within the game. That is what cyberpunk fiction rails about. the desensitization and even alienation created by a purely commercial-surface driven society.

Silverhand is/was part of that as a "celebrity".

Again, I fall back to the position that it's up the GM to make the world come alive. You cant' expect a book to do the work for you, as a GM. You need to read it, absorb it, figure out what you want to do with it and get to the point where you can extemporaneously generate content for it because you understand it. If you're just reading tables, rolling dice, and whiffing scenes out free of context... then yeah, you're going to lose coherence.

That goes for *any* genre of game.

Fair enough, the GM is the guy in charge not the rulebook.

But I think you are reading too much into the Silverhand lyrics.

Augmentation (along with AIs and Cyberspace) is probably the single most recognizable element of cyberpunk.

I think Pondsmith was simply advertising the contents of the book, like
"Hey guys! Wanna play cyborg rebels without a cause? This is it!"
(Hell I did and still do!)

While it is possible to play cyberpunk without cyberware, or fantasy without magic, I think most players would find it odd.

And here is the problem: gamers are gamers. Most people treat cyberware like magic items from vanilla fantasy rpgs and videogames, Pondsmith did not forsee this.

He is mostly a non-fantasy games author, that mindset is probably alien to him.

Quote from: CRKrueger;837966Where's the mechanic in our world that rewards not being a bastard and instead being a decent person?

If your players are the type that always become murder-hobos in D&D because there is no OOC third person personality mechanic to restrain them...

1. Get new players
or
2. Suggest they roleplay.

Society.
Conscience.
Both are mechanics. Some people try to cheat, but it tends to backfire.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;838008So how many flamethrowers can my character carry without being... encumbered?

According to what the people in the movie were doing? One. Since you're playing one of them, one for you, too.
Use it wisely.

QuoteCan I dual wield flamethrowers?

People find dual-wielding anything to be a bad idea, you're not trained. Why even ask?

QuoteWould it be better to use one flamethrower and carry more fuel instead?

Yes. But they're already carrying all the fuel they can.

QuoteI might need some stats for my character to make those kinds of decisions.

I just answered you without needing stats:).

QuoteIn the film, this is pretty much the result. But it stems from an important question "How can we beat the xenomorph?"

And the answer doesn't require stats for the characters.

QuoteIn hindsight, for a 15 year old movie, we know that getting in a hugging match with the xenomorph is a terrible idea. But the characters didn't know that at first.

Tough luck.

QuoteIn fact, they didn't even know the thing would grow up so fast. And when characters in an RPG scenario start asking those kinds of questions, they need more fidelity for the details in order to make decisions in how to handle things.

Why? What does it matter knowing that you can lift 100kgs if you don't know how strong the xenomorph is?
In game terms, you don't know his HP, Attack bonuses and so on. What do the characters' stats matter in this case?
And does your GM allow you to check the Monster Manual during play;)?

QuoteCould the xenomorph be crushed under a shipping container full of space-ore?

Do you have a way to tell? Try it. The mechanics that concern the xenomorph will tell.

QuoteOr trapped in a closet?

We all know that it can break the doors, so no.

QuoteWould a bunch of ball bearings in the hallway cause it to trip?

Rolling a save for the xenomorph still doesn't require any stats.

QuoteGMs and players need details to make those kinds of determinations.

The GM might use those details, or wing it. The players don't need any such details, and they'd actually make it harder to play the unknown.
Xenomorph:
Survive: 1-5 on 1d6 (adjust to 1-4 or 1-3 depending on plan - bad plans fail automatically).
Run away from traps: 1-4 on 1d6.
Avoid getting at a disadvantage: 1-5 on 1d6.
Splash Acid On Nearby Attacker: Automatic.
Cut Through Defensive Spacesuit: 1-2 on 1d6.
Carry Away Victim: Automatic as soon as it's big enough.
Being mislead: 1-3 on 1d6

There's the xenomorph stats.
You don't need more than that. It might be nice, but it's not necessary.

Cyberpunk is pretty interesting, in the sense that it doesn't precisely match any of the truly major novels of the cyberpunk genre, and yet it feels so totally definitive of what Cyberpunk is.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838454Cyberpunk is pretty interesting, in the sense that it doesn't precisely match any of the truly major novels of the cyberpunk genre, and yet it feels so totally definitive of what Cyberpunk is.

  Is that because it reflects the underpinnings of the genre, because it folds in so many elements of it, or simply because it was the formative exposure to the genre for so many fans and future participants?

  Change the nouns in your statement a bit, and you can apply the same statement and questions to D&D. :)

Quote from: RPGPundit;838454Cyberpunk is pretty interesting, in the sense that it doesn't precisely match any of the truly major novels of the cyberpunk genre, and yet it feels so totally definitive of what Cyberpunk is.

You could say the same about D&D and fantasy, of course. Or Traveller and SF. Or even Eclipse Phase and transhuman SF. Mashing together disparate literary influences into an encompassing setting makes for great gaming.

Quote from: artikid;838030Fair enough, the GM is the guy in charge not the rulebook.

But I think you are reading too much into the Silverhand lyrics.

Funny you should mention that. I don't think I read any of the fluff-text for Silverhand's lyrics. Instead if I used Silverhand in the game - I used Queensryche and "Rage for Order" or "Operation: Mindcrime" to represent the music.

As for the GMing bit - as I said before, we bring with us our experiences to the table. Whatever we consume in a medium we're filling in gaps and context from our experiences. When I read CP2020 - I'd already consumed *all* (actually more) the listed literary sources, including movies, magazines, comics etc. that inspired CP2020. So in speaking about what the game is "about" - I'm only speaking about my synthesis of these ideas. And yeah - I'm pretty solid on what I think and feel cyberpunk is, even before CP2020 landed on my desk.

Whatever the game implies or implicitly states is never free of the GM's perception, in any game. To what degree you want your game to resonate with your players, or boil it down to a rote tactical murder-spree of a game, or anything in between - CP2020 implies all of that. Not one true way. But if you look at the inspiration - it's just that. Inspiration. Why would you ignore it? You're free to of course. But choosing to do that IS a choice, and that comes from your own proclivities as a GM. It doesn't mean you're right in some absolute sense.

Just like I don't give a flying shit if people all want to do a mass-murder simulator for a campaign. Not my cuppa... but if that's what you wanna do...

Quote from: artikid;838030Augmentation (along with AIs and Cyberspace) is probably the single most recognizable element of cyberpunk.

Well it's *an* element. And certainly a pervasive one. There's subtext there that is expressly stated in the game: it comes at a cost. With a direct hit to your Empathy. If you play a game where that's not a big deal - then sure, let the inevitable bullets fly. That kinda shit doesn't happen in my games without a reason.

Quote from: artikid;838030I think Pondsmith was simply advertising the contents of the book, like
"Hey guys! Wanna play cyborg rebels without a cause? This is it!"
(Hell I did and still do!)

Well, without trying to "bigtime you" - he wasn't. Mike's into the genre very much. But hey - you don't have to take my word for it. There's people who play D&D in manners that as Old Geezer points out here all the time - would make St. Gary shit in his pants if he was at their table. Mike's kinda like that about CP2020. It's not Teenagers From Outer-Space hijinks with cyberwear. In fact he's said many times it's not just about the metal. Which is backed up by his inspirations for the game. It's about the disconnection brought about the worship of the disconnection as normal. Sounds high-falutin' - but that's cyberpunk for you. Or not.

Quote from: artikid;838030While it is possible to play cyberpunk without cyberware, or fantasy without magic, I think most players would find it odd.

1) I don't think anyone here is talking about playing CP2020 without Cyberware. 2) It would be odd. Especially since the *vast* majority of the populace has implants as a genre conceit.

The unspoken middle that you're ignoring, and is common in many futuristic settings is the range of gear available under the umbrella "cyberware". Cyberware is regulated just like all technology. It's not like you go down to the local clinic and say "Hey I loved those franken-trodes you installed a couple of days ago. I think I want you to cut my head off and install it in that Omega V Assault Borg body, and I'll take the modular X-ray gatling gun shouldermount options... better give me another set of extra arms and durasteel plating." The degree of prevalance and rarity of "cyberwar" is like "magic". As the GM - you set the tone. If you leave it to your players making the call based on what they subjectively feel based on their reading of a book of gear - then you're not GMing. You're just rolling dice for NPC's.

Quote from: artikid;838030And here is the problem: gamers are gamers. Most people treat cyberware like magic items from vanilla fantasy rpgs and videogames, Pondsmith did not forsee this.

I think you're giving him a LOT ignorance-points he most certainly doesn't deserve. He used to write for TSR (he did the Kara-Tur boxset - ahh the glory days), among other things awesome and fantastical.

See, this is where a little commonsense and jurisprudence comes in as a GM. Just because it has a pricetag on the fully-automatic assault rifle, and just because there's a buncha stats, doesn't mean everyone on the street is allowed to own one. In fact it says pretty clearly the only weapons that ARE legal are pistols. It goes into more detail in the 'Home of the Brave' book (excellent book btw). But again, if the GM says "Fair game" - great!

There are times where it's perfectly rational too. I've had games that took place inbetween the big megaplexes in the wastelands. Who is going to stop you from walking around with an assault rifle there? Better yet - who the fuck is going to care?

This is where the assumptions of the game implied in the book often require some consideration that there is civilization and security sectors and people who live in their dreamy little world. And usually that's not the PC's... so walking into those places armed to the teeth usually has consequences. As I always say in posts like these: CONTEXT IS KING.

Quote from: artikid;838030He is mostly a non-fantasy games author, that mindset is probably alien to him.

This is completely untrue. But I don't hold that against you.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838454Cyberpunk is pretty interesting, in the sense that it doesn't precisely match any of the truly major novels of the cyberpunk genre, and yet it feels so totally definitive of what Cyberpunk is.

Nailed it.

It's a little dash of Rudy Rucker, Simon Green, Bruce Sterling, Walter John Williams, and St. Gibson - frothing around in a stew of Blade Runner.

You decide how to serve it up.

Quote from: tenbones;838744Well, without trying to "bigtime you" - he wasn't. Mike's into the genre very much.

Do you or did you know Maximum Mike? Did you play Cyberpunk with him? I'd love to get some stories about his style. There's so much floating around about Gary Gygax, but I can't find any anecdotes on how Pondsmith ran his games.

I've been wondering if Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads is a good indicator given there's input by a lot of different people.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;838832Do you or did you know Maximum Mike? Did you play Cyberpunk with him? I'd love to get some stories about his style. There's so much floating around about Gary Gygax, but I can't find any anecdotes on how Pondsmith ran his games.

I've been wondering if Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads is a good indicator given there's input by a lot of different people.

Nothing but second-hand gaming information. One of my group members played with him a lot, and did some of the CP2020 writing. *He* had lots of stories about Mike during the heydey of CP2020 and Interface Magazine. So take it with a grain of salt.

I've run into Mike at a couple of con's, shot the shit with him a bunch. We were both at Microsoft at the same time when he "left tabletop" to work on Matrix Online (/shudder).

That said, I'm currently angling to hook up with Maximum Mike on a project. Nothing definite yet - but there's exchanges of communication going on (i.e. nothing I can comment about) nothing set in stone, but progress is being made.

Quote from: tenbones;838904Nothing but second-hand gaming information. One of my group members played with him a lot, and did some of the CP2020 writing. *He* had lots of stories about Mike during the heydey of CP2020 and Interface Magazine. So take it with a grain of salt.

I've run into Mike at a couple of con's, shot the shit with him a bunch. We were both at Microsoft at the same time when he "left tabletop" to work on Matrix Online (/shudder).

That said, I'm currently angling to hook up with Maximum Mike on a project. Nothing definite yet - but there's exchanges of communication going on (i.e. nothing I can comment about) nothing set in stone, but progress is being made.

Assuming everyone feels OK with sharing those, and has the inclination and time, I'd love to hear some of those if either you or your group member are up for it.

I'll ask. Ben isn't currently playing in my group right now but we're in touch.

As for me - I'm possibly being tapped for an unspecified project of Mike's. It's not solid yet. Given my general background in technology, blah blah, jerk jerk jerk, it probably isn't a big shock as to the nature of the possible project.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;838475Is that because it reflects the underpinnings of the genre, because it folds in so many elements of it, or simply because it was the formative exposure to the genre for so many fans and future participants?

  Change the nouns in your statement a bit, and you can apply the same statement and questions to D&D. :)

Quite, I was just thinking that.

In many ways, that is a defining quality of most of the top RPGs of every genre: they don't slavishly imitate any single example of the genre in question, but somehow capture the key of the style of it all.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;827648Skip the idea of modeling, and let's just talk about rules -- rules define how you do things in the game.  They funnel player action.  

A game, as other people have discussed, where you get experience points for gold piece acquisition and expenditure on whores and mead is qualitatively different than a game where you only get experience points for rolling skills.  Now, it might be that the former game is trying to model sword and sorcery, or it might just be that the game designer didn't want people to hold onto their gold and wanted them to blow it.  

So you've got three levels happening: you've got what the game designer intended the purpose of a rule to be.  You've got the rule as its written, the plain text, which may or may not communicate its purpose.  And you've got how people at tables all around the world take that rule and make it work, and what they use it for.

So my original post, which is partly quoted in the first post in this thread, was about how there's drift between those three steps.

Take Vampire.  Vampire: The Masquerade is ostensibly a game about vampires fighting to keep hold of their humanity in the face of temptations to boil it away in their nightly existence.  You've got a Humanity stat, you've got Virtues, all the quotes in the book are about "Beast I am Lest Beast I Become."  But the majority of players chose to make the game about Godfather with fangs.  It was about vampires being parasites on the face of the world, corrosive elements that corrupt via creating ghouls and amassing power.

That rift, between all the rules and support for what the designers intended, and what people actually played, and the dynamic that creates, that's what fascinates me.  You could say the rules were intended to model the Long Dark Night of the Soul that a vampire experiences, but what people actually used them for was quite different.  And eventually, the play happening at tables affected the direction of the whole line, and by the time you get to Vampire Second edition, the game supported much more of the way people were actually playing it.

This is an interesting point.

In my opinion, if a game strives to promote a theme or behaviour it should do it through both rules and playing advice. Vampire has problems in the two aspect. It's rules while pretty thematic do not tie the intended experience to the personal horror theme in a non-ignorable way. By providing players with a whole gamut of combat-oriented stuff (rules, weapons, disciplines, etc) and allowing characters to progress in power by using this stuff actively and frequently, they end up making the personal horror theme totally ignorable. All the while the book advocates for chronicles created by the GM to lead players by the nose from a prelude to a climax, giving little considerationg to the characters personal struggles and motivations.

I don't know Cyberpunk 2020 well but from the little I've read, it's your typical late 80s game which modeling is limited to skills-rolls & combat and little else. If that's really the case, then yeah, the author failed in achieving his goals (even if lots of people have fun with the game).

People have been "playing RPGs in a way that their writer didn't want" the first time Gary Gygax sold a copy of Brown Box OD&D to somebody he didn't know personally.

No, scratch that.  People have been "playing RPGs in a way that their writer didn't want" since Dave Arneson's BLACKMOOR players decided that going on crawls into the Blackmoor dungeons was more interesting than fighting the Egg of Coot.

No, scratch THAT.  People have been "playing RPGs in a way that their writer didn't want" since Dave Wesley's very first BRAUNSTEIN game when he "thought the results were chaotic and the experiment a failure."

Le plus ca change...

This is one of the reasons Shadowrun overtook Cyberpunk.

Shadowrun had a focus right out the bat. You play "Shadowrunners", it's even in the title of the game.

Shadowrun's various playerguides for each edition talked heavily about doing alternate campaigns such as Doc Wagon employee's, Celebrities, Gang members, and Lone Star...

But Shadowrun didn't get bogged down in trying to emulate every kind of cyberpunk story out there. It took the most simple and gameable aspect of Cyberpunk stories (Bad Ass Mercs for Hire) and framed the setting around that.

I've had tons of great Shadowrun campaigns which have had drama involving characters being lost to Cybermancy, bought out by corporations, conflicts of honor and all that...but it was more due to my players and what I emphazied while GMing..

My PC's had fun just roleplaying their characters moving from Detroit to Seattle in order to avoid Heat, and getting settled in...which neighborhood to live in, which cover businesses to acquire..How to handle family relations..

They didn't need special rules for any of this. The base Shadowrun rules only handled hurting people in interesting ways, and breaking into facilities.. the rest was on RP.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;828063After I ran out of Gibson stuff to read, I tried Snowcrash but hated it because Stephenson is a horrible hack of a writer. So I tried to track other works by some of the authors in the Mirrorshades anthology and was able to read some of John Shirley's early stuff. The Eclipse (Song of Youth) trilogy was good, but I found City Come A'walking more interesting because it had many of the genre's tropes before Gibson even hit the map.

I was also able to get my hands on a copy of Tom Maddox's (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Maddox) Halo, which I thought was excellent. I have Wetware in my library, but I'm missing the previous books. Shockwave Rider is also on the pile to read as well as "The Stars My Destination (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stars_My_Destination)", who someone once said had some elements that Cyberpunk later cribbed.

Other than that, Blade Runner, BGC, Black Magic M-66, New Rose Hotel, Strange Days, Nemesis and Hardware (with an Iggy Pop voice cameo) on the movie side also scratched my itch for the genre.

Funny thing is that I got into the genre because of the RPG.

I was into RPGs before Cyberpunk books were popular. Always have liked William Gibson and Philip K. Dick novels, Bruce Sterling, meh ... just Ok. The Matrix was really good, and Lana and Andy Wachowski continue to produce really interesting Sci-Fi and future tech movies, one of their more impressive recent ones starring Mila Kunis, ...Jupiter Ascending, which was an impressively good experience to watch and totally fits in with general cyberpunk or the transhumanist future experience that cyberpunk never quite manages to describe, or accurately capture. Bladerunner remains one of my all time favorite Science Fiction stories and also shares many, many, concepts with the cyberpunk genre.

The Cyberpunk I like best were the crossing of Noir and Technology and have always particularly enjoyed reading Dashiel Hammet, Raymond Chandler, and Ross McDonald, which were called hard-boiled mysteries, but these were really just Cyberpunk for the 20's and 30's and 40's, and often featured very sophisticated stories which included the effects of new technologies, combined with people and fragile emotional entanglements.

Same is true of some of the pulp fiction of the 40's, 50's and 60's which included Doc Savage, The Mac Bolan - Executioner series written by Don Pendleton and a host of other writers over the years as well as John D. McDonald with his Travis McGee series.

When I lived in Florida, I chose to live just a few blocks from the Marina in Fort Lauderdale where John D. McDonald lived on His sail boat just like his favorite character, and alter ego, Travis Mcgee did. I did this on purpose, and it brought a very interesting mix of people into my life.


William Gibson nailed it though. The effects of high-technology development on a society and on social development. I first read Neuromancer in 1984, and it was a hot property when it was released featuring an eclectic mix of mystery, cybernetics, genetics, information technology, and Turing A.I. development all set amidst the humble lives of a few characters who were caught by this environment, and must figure out a way to live, fin opportunities to be happy, and to grow, in spite the oppressive corporations, governments, and corrupt individuals all around them.

There was just one RPG that initially caught my attention for this and that was Shadowrun, Which I first played in 1993. This lost my interest though, because FASA insisted on trying to be like other RPGs, and introducing Magic and humanoid creatures that were not genetically modified or created humans but instead creatures straight from fantasy RPGs. This totally ruined the immersion for me, and I dropped trying to run a Cyberpunk game and didn't try running a Cyberpunk game again again until Spycraft was released in 2002.

The latest reboot of Shadowrun looks much better, and has been written so it is easy to leave the stupid fantasy RPG elements out, and Shadowrun 5th Edition would probably be my goto pick for running a Cyberpunk game, with just a bit of tweaking Spycraft 2.0 works good for this too.

Also, Thanks for the tip on Tom Maddox, I'll look up his books!

Quote from: Orphan81;880482This is one of the reasons Shadowrun overtook Cyberpunk.

Shadowrun had a focus right out the bat. You play "Shadowrunners", it's even in the title of the game.

As the guy who wrote the quote in the original post, the only thing I would change about it is to make a very important point about the central activity of an RPG overpowering designer intent.  That central activity is your hook, and a strong hook gets people playing.  It will over power designer intent, for the better.

D&D's hook is the mines of Moria.  Nearly everybody's read Tolkien and nearly everybody remembers that scene.  Even if you don't make it through the whole trilogy, you've seen the descent into the dungeons of Moria.  Shadowrun's hook is the Sense/Net run from Neuromancer, the Nakitomi heist from Die Hard, or the just about anything from the movie Heat.

If you want to explain what you do in any of those games, you pop in those movies or recommend those books, and *poof.*  If you need an idea for what to do in the game, you write up another Moria or another Nakitomi building and go.  If you want to do something different you can, but the ease of those central activities means that the average person can just fucking roll with it.

If I were a betting man, I'd say one of the successes of Exalted 1e was coming out at roughly the same time as Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Hero, where fans could say, "That scene, you know the one, that's what this game is about."  I know that when I used to want to sell people on Exalted, I whipped out the first five minutes of Samurai Seven, where the main guy flies into an army of mecha and just decimates them.

Get a strong central activity that can be repeated without being repetitious, allow for other activities, and then roll: That's the strength of a good RPG.  It's also why I think I like Blades in the Dark so much.

Quote from: GameDaddy;880494There was just one RPG that initially caught my attention for this and that was Shadowrun, Which I first played in 1993. This lost my interest though, because FASA insisted on trying to be like other RPGs, and introducing Magic and humanoid creatures that were not genetically modified or created humans but instead creatures straight from fantasy RPGs. This totally ruined the immersion for me, and I dropped trying to run a Cyberpunk game and didn't try running a Cyberpunk game again again until Spycraft was released in 2002.

The latest reboot of Shadowrun looks much better, and has been written so it is easy to leave the stupid fantasy RPG elements out, and Shadowrun 5th Edition would probably be my goto pick for running a Cyberpunk game, with just a bit of tweaking Spycraft 2.0 works good for this too.

Uh? Wha? Shadowrun had the fantasy elements from the get-go. I've got 1st Ed. Elves, Dragons, Magic, Gods, and all. Some were definitely metagene awakenings. Others were not. Never saw any that were lab created that I can recall outside the first novels which introduced real elves by book two or thee. In fact the RPG "mostly metagene expression triggered by the return of magic" version is pretty much the only version of Shadowrun I know. And like you I prefer that version. Magic was around but it was so downplayed at times.

Fasa handled the game so oddly sometimes. Not sure if that helped or hindered. But with their marketing juggernaut who would know.

Quote from: Orphan81;880482They didn't need special rules for any of this. The base Shadowrun rules only handled hurting people in interesting ways, and breaking into facilities.. the rest was on RP.

Roleplayers don't need mechanics to model, love, hate, betrayal, etc... Story gamers do.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;880499Get a strong central activity that can be repeated without being repetitious, allow for other activities, and then roll: That's the strength of a good RPG.

Certainly it helps for a game to give a clear sense of what player characters will be doing. But there have been some successful multi-genre games, like GURPS or (initially) Torg; are these games necessarily fighting an uphill battle, or are they mostly aimed at people who already roleplay, or something else?

Quote from: rawma;880522Certainly it helps for a game to give a clear sense of what player characters will be doing. But there have been some successful multi-genre games, like GURPS or (initially) Torg; are these games necessarily fighting an uphill battle, or are they mostly aimed at people who already roleplay, or something else?

I think having a strong central activity is anathema to those games, as they aim to be universal and generic (at least in GURPS case, don't know Torg).

I wonder how the idea of a strong central activity would fit in Vampire: the Masquerade. Or, which central activity would make Vampire achieve it's goal of personal horror (instead of "supers by night" as most tables play it).

Quote from: Itachi;880525I wonder how the idea of a strong central activity would fit in Vampire: the Masquerade. Or, which central activity would make Vampire achieve it's goal of personal horror (instead of "supers by night" as most tables play it).

In Bram Stoker's book, Dracula has to feed and abide by various restrictions of vampires (crates with his native earth to sleep in, acting only at night, aversion to garlic and crosses), and has to deal with Harker and others to arrange matters, but feeding on Lucy brings vampire hunters led by Van Helsing down on him. So, I imagine the central activity would be committing heinous acts that degrade their humanity but continuing to operate at the edge of human society (at least) and dealing with the effective opposition they inevitably attract. It seems to fit the OOC bennie mechanics that have been discussed lately in the context of the 2d20 Conan game -- the PC vampires gain power from atrocities but degrade their more human skills, and the atrocities also power up the vampire hunters (GM bennies). Possible end games: GM bennies outstrip the PC bennies and the vampire hunters succeed; PC bennies rule but the vampires lose their humanity, and the vampire apocalypse happens; or the vampires manage an uneasy balance by policing their own.

But Bram Stoker is a little too vampire hunters as PCs, so Lestat would probably be a better base but seems less personal horror and more supers with fangs to me (long time since I read it, though).

Quote from: rawma;880522Certainly it helps for a game to give a clear sense of what player characters will be doing. But there have been some successful multi-genre games, like GURPS or (initially) Torg; are these games necessarily fighting an uphill battle, or are they mostly aimed at people who already roleplay, or something else?

Savage Worlds is a universal system, but it has a definitive focus on being "Fast, Furious, Fun" no matter what setting you're going with. Even then, the individual setting books themselves provide focus right out the gate... "Deadlands" Cowboy Monster Hunters, "Rippers" Victorian Monsterhunters, "Necessary Evil" Supervillain world saviors..

Universal systems tend to trade on their setting offerings. GURPS I wouldn't actually call newbie friendly, it does seem more for those already in the RPG scene as it doesn't really have any strong setting offerings...quite the contrary, it's offering is "We have a book to model anything you need, go hogwild mixing and matching and creating your own game!"

By contrast, Savage Worlds you can offer up Deadlands as the buy in..

Quote from: Future Villain Band;880499a whole bunch of stuff

I don't disagree... If anything one of the biggest problems with Tabletop RPGs is overhead.... The quicker you can explain the premise or give an example of what the game actually is....the stronger the appeal in getting people to play and keep playing...

Tekumel has a ton of overhead...Dungeons and Dragons doesn't explicitly for the reasons you said...."It's Lord of the Rings" or any number of videogame RPG's these days...

Of course that doesn't mean more complex buy in can't be done...but it does mean most likely that one is limiting their audience... Going further with your example of Cyberpunk2020 with design vs intent...It makes me wonder if the design was meant to make it easy buy in and less overhead, even if the Intent was to play Cyberpunk drama rather than Cyberpunk action..

As for Exalted... I had just turned 20 when 1st edition came out...Tons of Weebo Anime fans like me ate that shit up....Those of us who grew up on Final Fantasy Videogames, Lodoss War Anime, and other eastern offerings...My generation was really the youngest who got to grow up on it while it was becoming mainstream... Your generation did the favor of actually creating it for us....something we didn't know we wanted until it was put before us...

I remember being in the Hobby Shop and my buddy reading over the just released copy...I forget entirely what I was there to buy...but I walked out with Exalted, and spent the rest of the day reading as much as I could...so I could run it literally the next day. It was lightning in the bottle.

It makes me wonder if Vampire: the Masquerade was the same thing...a bunch of nerds (They may call themselves Goths or Alt culture or whatever, but they were fuckin' nerds) who had consumed 80s vampire movies and books, and the music scene....desperately wanting something to play which spoke to it...when suddenly 'Bam!' there it is.

Quote from: Orphan81;880548As for Exalted... I had just turned 20 when 1st edition came out...Tons of Weebo Anime fans like me ate that shit up....Those of us who grew up on Final Fantasy Videogames, Lodoss War Anime, and other eastern offerings...My generation was really the youngest who got to grow up on it while it was becoming mainstream... Your generation did the favor of actually creating it for us....something we didn't know we wanted until it was put before us...

I remember being in the Hobby Shop and my buddy reading over the just released copy...I forget entirely what I was there to buy...but I walked out with Exalted, and spent the rest of the day reading as much as I could...so I could run it literally the next day. It was lightning in the bottle.

It makes me wonder if Vampire: the Masquerade was the same thing...a bunch of nerds (They may call themselves Goths or Alt culture or whatever, but they were fuckin' nerds) who had consumed 80s vampire movies and books, and the music scene....desperately wanting something to play which spoke to it...when suddenly 'Bam!' there it is.

It was very much like that. I remember when Exalted was first released. I was at Origins in, I want to say 2001, and was invited into a release party playtest round. White Wolf had released a Free Introductory Kit, which was a softcover 24 page guide to the World of Tellurian. It was a player oriented narrative style storytelling RPG with a simple task resolution system. The quickplay guide had eight pages for World description, Ten pages for character generation, and six pages for Task Resolution. Everything you really needed to play was in that little book, and It, and a map of Tellurian was used,  to run a full exalted campaign in 2003.
The artwork was really good for the game, and for the next five years I regularly saw Exalted Solars Larping and Cosplay, at gaming shows.

With Vampire, it was very similar. There was a bunch of movies that all came out at once about Vampires, i.e. Lost Boys, The Vampire Chronicles, Interview with the Vampire, Dracula, From Dusk till Dawn, Vampires, The Innocent Blood, Hunger, and with over thirty new movie releases in the late 80's and early 90's.

Tthis was capped with the release of Underworld in 2003, which was directly inspired from LARP Storylines generated by the White Wolf Vampire RPG, so much so, that White Wolf successfully sued Len Wiseman and the Production company that created Underworld and they all came to an agreement or settlement agreement where White Wolf earned some royalties and got some creative credits from the Underworld franchise of movies.

While I never played it, I'm pretty sure Vampire used a similar dice pool mechanic to Exalted, and that Exalted was the spinoff game, after the popularity of Vampire and Lycan games began to subside.

This series is still popular and the sixth movie of the franchise, Underworld: Next Generation is scheduled to be released this year on October 14th, and will probably be the last of the series that Kate Beckinsale will star in as she recently separated  from Len Wiseman.

She's single, and working, and was spotted last month at Sundance stepping out and promoting the release of Love & Friendship a movie based on one of Jane Austin's Victorian romance and fiction stories.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;880499As the guy who wrote the quote in the original post, the only thing I would change about it is to make a very important point about the central activity of an RPG overpowering designer intent.  That central activity is your hook, and a strong hook gets people playing.  It will over power designer intent, for the better.

It's actually very cyberpunk when what the players want overpowers designer's intent:).
The street finds its own use for things.

QuoteGet a strong central activity that can be repeated without being repetitious, allow for other activities, and then roll: That's the strength of a good RPG.  It's also why I think I like Blades in the Dark so much.

I would say no.
The central activities are, to me, the same ones in every game.
"Explore the setting.
Achieve my goals.
Make friends."
Enemies aren't something I ever make purposefully, but then dealing with them gets to be a goal;).

That said, I would also, and without contradicting, say yes. It's just a "yes, but":p.
Which is to say, I gave the same advice to a GM. "Find a central activity, or even better, several ones, that you enjoy and can offer variations when running. When you're not sure what should happen, odds are, this is what happens, unless you're totally sure it's not a good idea right now".
For many GMs, that activity is running a dungeoncrawl. For others, it's making a shadowrun. For others, it's chasing celebrity status. For others, it's running an organisation, often with trading or criminal purposes. For other GMs, that bread and butter is building and maintaining relationships with NPCs. And then there are those that simply give you a new setting exposition, all the while thinking what happens next.
And of course, there are those who have as a default activity "ninjas attack, deal with it".

And of course, some GMs change the default activity between games. But that's not a rule, though some games have obvious central activities:).

Quote from: CRKrueg+er;880520Roleplayers don't need mechanics to model, love, hate, betrayal, etc... Story gamers do.

While entertaining, no:D.
Immersionist roleplayers don't need mechanics, when playing in a familiar genre.
Non-immersionist roleplayers can benefit from mechanics, and so can immersionist roleplayers when playing in a genre they're not intimately familiar with - and even more, when running said genre.
Mechanics-as-guidelines are actually something rather useful for the Referee, IME;).

I'd certainly say that somehow, Shadowrun caught the spirit of cyberpunk better than Cyberpunk did.  It had a much worse system, though.

Quote from: RPGPundit;881213I'd certainly say that somehow, Shadowrun caught the spirit of cyberpunk better than Cyberpunk did.  It had a much worse system, though.

Some times a deeply flawed system is a feature not a bug.  I have a friend who claims white wolf, specificly vampire, was a terrible system but a great game.  It was great (at least at his table) because the flaws in the system meant the players and the DM had to bring a lot to the game.  It also ment the rules weren't strong enough to argue about so you didn't, and you didn't spend a tone of time looking things up in the books.    

Didn't play cyberpunk and only played shadow run once before that group moved on to something else.  But since the conversation is about how mechanics affect play I though I would try to broaden our definition of mechanics.  

I am sure this conversation has been had on here before but number of people is a huge factor for determining level of stealth and wanton destruction.  One or two can do infiltration.  Three is an elete strike team, precession violence.  5 is the wrecking crew (the name of our posse in vampire) 6 or more you should play Amber cause it's going to be all inter party conflict any way.  I am painting with a big brush here your mileage may vary.

Also flavour text is a great mechanic.  

As for the hook. For us in vampire the hook was the crow as much as anything.  Also walking in the cold rain after dark in Canadian November was a great warm up.  (Also a hidden mechanic). Come to think of it we only play WW in the winter.  

I like the hook suggestion, that helps me understand why I was having trouble getting my players keen on Amber, none of them have read the books.

Quote from: RPGPundit;881213I'd certainly say that somehow, Shadowrun caught the spirit of cyberpunk better than Cyberpunk did.  It had a much worse system, though.

I don't know about that. It doesn't capture the spirit of City Come A'Walking, Islands in the Net, Halo, 400 Boyz, Eclipse, or even the gestalt of the sprawl series. Neuromancer, which does have a climatic run at the end, is not about the run, nor does all of the action resemble a run.

Quote from: RPGPundit;881213I'd certainly say that somehow, Shadowrun caught the spirit of cyberpunk better than Cyberpunk did.  It had a much worse system, though.

Never got that impression at all. I mean, the implicit thing in Shadowrun is you go on "shadowruns" - which is gamespeak for pulling off jobs. Fine.

I think if anything - Cyberpunk 2020 is busy trying to create the setting without boxing people into doing "pulling off jobs" - but that's certainly in there, hence they call everyone "Edgerunners" (even though I didn't use the term very often). I could see how if you came to the game with fresh eyes, it would like that in comparison. The tone of Shadowrun seems, as I recall, to be more implicit.

I've run military games that transitioned into post-military criminal activities, that sprawled into government wet-work and sidelined even into a lot of corporate politics that side-lined into real politics.

But then I've done straight-up Heat-style crew-based campaigns, organized crime, biker-gangs of the wasteland type campaigns too, including a few orbital jaunts. CP2020 gives you a lot of room to do "cyberpunk-genre" stuff across the spectrum.

But as I've said elsewhere, I was already well saturated with concepts of the genre. Shadowrun, to me, had different conceits... because of dragons running around, and shit like that. The system did suck too.

@tenbones:

What are your seminal cyberpunk works that are not Gibson? I've been tracking some down little by little from reading Mirrorshades, but I know I'm missing a lot.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881314@tenbones:

What are your seminal cyberpunk works that are not Gibson? I've been tracking some down little by little from reading Mirrorshades, but I know I'm missing a lot.

Strictly speaking - I don't think books alone inform "cyberpunk genre". But they certainly are the cornerstone. I think cyberpunk pulls from many other genres and mediums as a conceit itself.

My recommendations of books from the Old School:

"When Gravity Fails" - George Alec Effinger. Also it's sequels "Fire in the Sun" and "The Exile Kiss". Great series, does a superb job of showing cyberpunk-flavor outside of the normal Amero-centric locales. Cyberpunk is already really good at going for culture-shock, this series does it from a more middle-eastern angle. They did a sourcebook for the first book in Cyberpunk2020. Still holds up solid.

"A Scanner Darkly" - Phillip K. Dick. Honestly, I find that Dick's work is almost as foundational as Gibsons. Less overtly, but more spiritually to the cyberpunk genre. It underscores the alienation that Gibson and those that come after would solidify. Scanner is a perfect representation of that. Obviously: "Minority Report", "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep"

"Islands in the Net" - Bruce Sterling. It's dated. Horribly so. But again, when it was written it was visionary. Read it like you're reading Heinlein then you try not to laugh as his spacemen whip out sliderulers to do their calculations for space-travel... Islands is like that. It's foundational conceptually, even though I think the writing itself is just okay.

"Shockwave Rider" - John Brunner. Another pre-Cyberpunk seminal work that lays the foundation for Gibson. It's really way ahead of its time. I think it came out around the mid-70's, but don't let that wave you off. He shows an immense skill for predicting things we take for granted. I think the "web" and malware were first coined here to my recollection. Really way ahead of its time.

"Software" - Rudy Rucker. Rucker is right there with Gibson, Sterling and Effinger. Pretty much one of the seminal cyberpunk authors. Software starts digging into ideas of virtual consciousness, and the hive-minded AI and in many ways skims the surface of Supraconsciousness as a cyberpunk concept. It has three sequels - "Wetware", "Freeware" and "Realware". What I like about this series is it is almost an indictment of Asimov's "Three Laws" in postulating how life would be like once those laws were cast away/not in effect. I've always thought Rucker was as important as Gibson in a blue-collar way to Gibson's more cerebral approach.

"Hardwired" - Walter John Williams. Not gonna lie... I love WJW. This is high-octane cyberpunk. Lots of action, but he does a great job of world-building alongside it. The sequel "The Voice of the Whirlwind" is almost a deconstruction of first book - and strays into what I'd call classic sci-fi space-opera. Or at least it skims it nicely - still a good book.


You'll note I don't put up Gibson or any new folks that I think are awesome(because you asked) but there are some good CP-style writers: Paolo Bacigalupi, Charles Stross, Kaye Wagner, (look them up). Gibson is simply prolific and complete. You could read all his books and say - there you go. All these new kids on the cyberpunk-block do great modern work, but I'd also say no one right now is pushing 30+ years ahead of the technical curve without retreading shit that's already been done. Maybe Alistair Reynolds - but then he's going into full transhumanism. Stross is very good tho.

I'd just as soon recommend cyberpunk-influenced music and movies as books these days.

Quote from: tenbones;881330My recommendations of books from the Old School:

Commendable selection, milord!

What's your opinion regarding "The River of Gods" by McDonald and "Blindisght" by Watts? I know it's neither old school nor pure CP, I'm simply interested in an opinion.

Quote from: tenbones;881330Strictly speaking - I don't think books alone inform "cyberpunk genre". But they certainly are the cornerstone. I think cyberpunk pulls from many other genres and mediums as a conceit itself.

My recommendations of books from the Old School:

Spoiler

"When Gravity Fails" - George Alec Effinger. Also it's sequels "Fire in the Sun" and "The Exile Kiss". Great series, does a superb job of showing cyberpunk-flavor outside of the normal Amero-centric locales. Cyberpunk is already really good at going for culture-shock, this series does it from a more middle-eastern angle. They did a sourcebook for the first book in Cyberpunk2020. Still holds up solid.

"A Scanner Darkly" - Phillip K. Dick. Honestly, I find that Dick's work is almost as foundational as Gibsons. Less overtly, but more spiritually to the cyberpunk genre. It underscores the alienation that Gibson and those that come after would solidify. Scanner is a perfect representation of that. Obviously: "Minority Report", "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep"

"Islands in the Net" - Bruce Sterling. It's dated. Horribly so. But again, when it was written it was visionary. Read it like you're reading Heinlein then you try not to laugh as his spacemen whip out sliderulers to do their calculations for space-travel... Islands is like that. It's foundational conceptually, even though I think the writing itself is just okay.

"Shockwave Rider" - John Brunner. Another pre-Cyberpunk seminal work that lays the foundation for Gibson. It's really way ahead of its time. I think it came out around the mid-70's, but don't let that wave you off. He shows an immense skill for predicting things we take for granted. I think the "web" and malware were first coined here to my recollection. Really way ahead of its time.

"Software" - Rudy Rucker. Rucker is right there with Gibson, Sterling and Effinger. Pretty much one of the seminal cyberpunk authors. Software starts digging into ideas of virtual consciousness, and the hive-minded AI and in many ways skims the surface of Supraconsciousness as a cyberpunk concept. It has three sequels - "Wetware", "Freeware" and "Realware". What I like about this series is it is almost an indictment of Asimov's "Three Laws" in postulating how life would be like once those laws were cast away/not in effect. I've always thought Rucker was as important as Gibson in a blue-collar way to Gibson's more cerebral approach.

"Hardwired" - Walter John Williams. Not gonna lie... I love WJW. This is high-octane cyberpunk. Lots of action, but he does a great job of world-building alongside it. The sequel "The Voice of the Whirlwind" is almost a deconstruction of first book - and strays into what I'd call classic sci-fi space-opera. Or at least it skims it nicely - still a good book.

You'll note I don't put up Gibson or any new folks that I think are awesome(because you asked) but there are some good CP-style writers: Paolo Bacigalupi, Charles Stross, Kaye Wagner, (look them up). Gibson is simply prolific and complete. You could read all his books and say - there you go. All these new kids on the cyberpunk-block do great modern work, but I'd also say no one right now is pushing 30+ years ahead of the technical curve without retreading shit that's already been done. Maybe Alistair Reynolds - but then he's going into full transhumanism. Stross is very good tho.

I'd just as soon recommend cyberpunk-influenced music and movies as books these days.

Excellent selection - and I must admit, some of these have fallen off my radar. Hardwired, for example, seems too action-oriented for me.
But that's a major difference in approach right there...
There's always at least three approaches to genre emulation.
1) Emulating the structure and pacing of the stories in the genre. Short of a GM familiar with the genre and a group of fans, storygames would do that best, because they're done to do that. Tech Noir would be the best cyberpunk example I know of:).

2) Emulating the feeling of living in that world. Cyberpunk 2020 is about this, period. Everything else you can use it for, is icing on the cake.
Hell, it has "Hardwired" as a setting:D!
Fates Worse Than Death would be another game in that vein, except it's neo-cyberpunk. Then again, I prefer neo-cyberpunk these days, because it's IMO closest to "living in this world".

3) Emulating a specific, "most gameable" part of the genre. Dungeon-clearing in D&D, runs in Shadowrun, and - I'd assume - doing a mission in the Leverage game are all about that (again, I might be wrong about Leverage, never played it - please don't fixate on it;)). It gives an easy recipe that most any GM can emulate, most any GM can improvise on this theme, so they're the most popular ones...but ultimately it's fixating too much on just part of the experience assumed in either of the other two. IME, the rest of the experience tends to suffer from it;).

Ironic that you brought up "River of the Gods" - I've never read it, it slipped past me somehow. I'd heard about it, but about a month ago I was talking with some editorial folks about "The Windup Girl" by Paolo Bacigalupi and "River of the Gods" was immediately brought up as something that I would love.

So - it's currently sitting third on my stack (behind "The Bone Clocks" - by David Mitchell and "Sharp Ends" - by Joe Abercrombie).

"Blindsight" - its, to me, a bit of a sci-fi milestone. It's one of the first modern transhumanist books that digs into neuroscience and psychology in a manner that is both honest while provocative. It's well crafted and executed. And I'm normally ambivalent about Transhumanism books oddly.

Mainly because I see the major conflicts people have with transhumanism to be less controversial than the conflicts we'll have getting to that point. Alistair Reynold's "Revelation Space" books are imo, the best of this lot. Good hard-SF reading right there.

Quote from: AsenRG;881348Excellent selection - and I must admit, some of these have fallen off my radar. Hardwired, for example, seems too action-oriented for me.
But that's a major difference in approach right there...
There's always at least three approaches to genre emulation.
1) Emulating the structure and pacing of the stories in the genre. Short of a GM familiar with the genre and a group of fans, storygames would do that best, because they're done to do that. Tech Noir would be the best cyberpunk example I know of:).

2) Emulating the feeling of living in that world. Cyberpunk 2020 is about this, period. Everything else you can use it for, is icing on the cake.
Hell, it has "Hardwired" as a setting:D!
Fates Worse Than Death would be another game in that vein, except it's neo-cyberpunk. Then again, I prefer neo-cyberpunk these days, because it's IMO closest to "living in this world".

3) Emulating a specific, "most gameable" part of the genre. Dungeon-clearing in D&D, runs in Shadowrun, and - I'd assume - doing a mission in the Leverage game are all about that (again, I might be wrong about Leverage, never played it - please don't fixate on it;)). It gives an easy recipe that most any GM can emulate, most any GM can improvise on this theme, so they're the most popular ones...but ultimately it's fixating too much on just part of the experience assumed in either of the other two. IME, the rest of the experience tends to suffer from it;).

I agree with all of this. You are the recipient of the D.O.N.G. Black Belt. /bow

(and yeah - Hardwired was definitely action-fest. Which, as you mentioned, shows us the range of the genre.) You nailed it on the division of approach.

It might be more accurate to say you've illustrated here a possible segregation of GMing-styles that are less tribal and more accurate to how people approach gaming in general.

Quote from: tenbones;881354I agree with all of this. You are the recipient of the D.O.N.G. Black Belt. /bow

(and yeah - Hardwired was definitely action-fest. Which, as you mentioned, shows us the range of the genre.) You nailed it on the division of approach.

It might be more accurate to say you've illustrated here a possible segregation of GMing-styles that are less tribal and more accurate to how people approach gaming in general.

I am honoured:).

But yes, it's about GMing styles.
Thing is, Shadowrun, CP2020 and Tech Noir all assume a rather pure form of a specific GMing style.
Those games are written for one kind of GM or another in mind, and unlike some other titles in the same genre, it shows clearly what the assumed style is.

Blue Planet makes for a rather good cyberpunk game, too. But unlike the three games above, I can't tell which approach we're meant to take, though I suspect the storytelling style wasn't given much consideration;).

I see that we agree.

Quote from: tenbones;881353Ironic that you brought up "River of the Gods" -

I think you're not gonna be disappointed. I'd suggest moving "The Bone Clocks" to the end of the line. It's a good reading, but I feel both Abercrombie and McDonald produced better books.

Great list Tenbones, kudos for the shout to Islands in the Net.

For me, Cyberpunk 2020 was Hardwired the rpg, not at all Neuromancer. Later they produced a Hardwired supplement but from day one it seemed tapped into that rather broken world where to win was to make it to the orbitals and where cybertech was a consumer choice.

Also, FVB is spot on with his core experience point.

Quote from: tenbones;881353Ironic that you brought up "River of the Gods" - I've never read it, it slipped past me somehow. I'd heard about it, but about a month ago I was talking with some editorial folks about "The Windup Girl" by Paolo Bacigalupi and "River of the Gods" was immediately brought up as something that I would love.

So - it's currently sitting third on my stack (behind "The Bone Clocks" - by David Mitchell and "Sharp Ends" - by Joe Abercrombie).

"Blindsight" - its, to me, a bit of a sci-fi milestone. It's one of the first modern transhumanist books that digs into neuroscience and psychology in a manner that is both honest while provocative. It's well crafted and executed. And I'm normally ambivalent about Transhumanism books oddly.

Mainly because I see the major conflicts people have with transhumanism to be less controversial than the conflicts we'll have getting to that point. Alistair Reynold's "Revelation Space" books are imo, the best of this lot. Good hard-SF reading right there.

River is good. Based on your recommendations I think you'd like it.

I really like Blindsight, but it's not remotely cyberpunk. It's transhumanist sf, an evolutionary pffshoot.

Quote from: D-503;881373River is good. Based on your recommendations I think you'd like it.

I really like Blindsight, but it's not remotely cyberpunk. It's transhumanist sf, an evolutionary pffshoot.

Yeah I plan on cracking that sucker soon. I've been waiting two years for R. Scott Bakker's last book in his series, "The Unholy Consult" - sweet Galactus I've been waiting! And it drops in a few months... so I need to clear the board.

I was remiss for not mentioning the 'Aubry Knight' series from Steven Barnes (he also co-wrote Dream Park with Larry Niven). But the "Streetlethal" books with Aubry Knight had a big impact on my cyberpunk sensibilities. Steve is a great guy. I met him once many years ago, and he was such a gracious guy.

Quote from: tenbones;881330Strictly speaking - I don't think books alone inform "cyberpunk genre". But they certainly are the cornerstone. I think cyberpunk pulls from many other genres and mediums as a conceit itself.

My recommendations of books from the Old School:

Out of those, I've heard of all of them, but have not read most of them yet. Only "DADoES",  and "Islands in the Net". I've liked the movie versions of those PKD books.

Quote from: tenbones;881330You'll note I don't put up Gibson or any new folks that I think are awesome(because you asked)

I quite like Gibson, but I've pretty  much read everything by him, except for his last book and the difference engine. :)

Quotebut there are some good CP-style writers: Paolo Bacigalupi, Charles Stross, Kaye Wagner, (look them up). Gibson is simply prolific and complete. You could read all his books and say - there you go. All these new kids on the cyberpunk-block do great modern work, but I'd also say no one right now is pushing 30+ years ahead of the technical curve without retreading shit that's already been done. Maybe Alistair Reynolds - but then he's going into full transhumanism. Stross is very good tho.

I'd just as soon recommend cyberpunk-influenced music and movies as books these days.

I'll check out some of these authors. I tried Charles Stross' Accelerando, and I had the same problem with him that I had with Neal Stephenson. I couldn't get past their writing, though I'd probably would have enjoyed their ideas in a non fiction sort of book. Maybe I need to give another one of his books a go.

Quote from: tenbones;881353Ironic that you brought up "River of the Gods" - I've never read it, it slipped past me somehow. I'd heard about it, but about a month ago I was talking with some editorial folks about "The Windup Girl" by Paolo Bacigalupi and "River of the Gods" was immediately brought up as something that I would love.

Definitely going to have to checkout River of the Gods then. Picked up Windup Girl in 2013 while on vacation in South Carolina (Actually found a full sized Barnes & Noble that was still open) and it's one of my favorite books from the last decade or so.

Quote from: GameDaddy;881427Definitely going to have to checkout River of the Gods then. Picked up Windup Girl in 2013 while on vacation in South Carolina (Actually found a full sized Barnes & Noble that was still open) and it's one of my favorite books from the last decade or so.

Didn't overly care for windup up girl.  It was well written, I'm glad I read it, don't know that I enjoyed it.  I wouldn't read another one by that author for enjoyment but I would be happy to read it if it was a book club selection.   If that makes sense.  I also don't think it's cyber punk.  I don't think it's either cyber or punk, I could be wrong and would be happy to argue about it.

Anyone read Red Rising?  I quite recommend it, it might be a little YA but it's stretching for more.  It's not cyber punk cause their aren't really computers, and it's about trying to over come challenges, not being crushed under them.


Is that the difference between cyber punk, and what the OP said we ended up playing instead?  Being crushed under the dystopia, vs getting heavier ordanence and blasting away at the monolith til we can stand up straight?

Second question their seams to be a schism between story games and what ever it is we true beliveavers are playing (just for the record I am a true believer since I don't want to be lynched) I am sure you have been all over that in great depth many times.  Where is the best clearest discussion or descriptions of the differences?

Hmm, Pundit's on to something here.  The "spirit" of Cyberpunk.  Obviously that's going to vary quite a bit.  However lets take a look at this.

Dehumanization of technology - Cyberpunk has humanity score, and people can go crazy from too much cyber.  But you can have Full Conversion Borgs, so the cyber level can get pretty high.  Oddly enough, it's the fantasy element of Shadowrun that actually models dehumanization better through Essence.  You have a set amount you can lose, and even a little has a dramatic effect.  It makes you harder to heal.  It makes it harder to cast magic.  When viewed from the astral, your cyber is dead spots in your aura.  It's literally dehumanizing.  They both did a great job of cyber as consumer culture, with ads, mall clinics, etc...

Corporate Rule - They both do a good job of this, and both had their "Corporate War" elements.  I think Shadowrun detailed it more with the Corporate Court, the AAA megacorps aka The Big Eight, and the big difference, the Extraterritoriality aspect that made the buildings of the AAAs basically embassys where they're own law was in effect.

Art and the Punk aesthetic - This one hands down goes to Shadowrun.  The cover of Cyberpunk 2020 is cool, no doubt about it, you got a Bladerunner-like scene in the background, a cool solo in the frontground, corp chick behind.  But, it's clean.  The solo's wearing Gibson battlegear and a t-shirt but his hair looks good.  These are beautiful people.  The cover for Shadowrun is three punks in a filthy alley.  They have alternative hairstyles, tattoos, leather and denim.  For all the talk of the focus on Shadowrun being focused on Heat style runs, I think Cyberpunk actually strayed more toward Heat and Shadowrun more toward "Pink Mohawk" in the games I saw in 90s SoCal.

Artifical Intelligence - Cyberpunk 2020 has nothing to match the menace and horror of Deus, an AI that poses potentially, a threat to all of humanity.  Even worse, Deus doesn't ape Skynet, and get free into the Matrix and take over the world, no Deus is locked away in the largest and richest Arcology (tying in with Corporate Rule) and the horror isn't being vaporized by a Terminator, but being taken to one of Deus' experimentation labs.

Rich vs. Poor - The Redmond and Puyallup Barrens of Seattle, the Shattergraves of Chicago, the Rox in Boston.  Cyberpunk has it's Mad Max vibe with the Nomad lands, and Night City has it's slums, but Shadowrun has places where shit got so bad people are pushing into Morlock territory.  Again, the magic aspect lets it push this a little harder, with virus-affected ghouls, toxic shamans, etc... Also in adventures where the runners encounter the rich and famous,

The Dehumanized want to feel human - Sex, Drugs, Simsense.  Cyberpunk has it, a lot of it.  Shadowrun takes it to the level we actually would, ie. omnipresent, everywhere and the focus of some adventures.

So while Cyberpunk 2020 might be closer to the actual settings of some of the mirrorshades writers, I think Shadowrun, by differing from those settings more actually allows them to hit the tropes and channel the spirit better.

BTW, the fantasy part people don't like - that actually makes Shadowrun better Sci-Fi, but that's a different post. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438Hmm, Pundit's on to something here.  The "spirit" of Cyberpunk.  Obviously that's going to vary quite a bit.

Yeah, it varies. It varies to the point where there's no use refuting your points one by one:). I simply disagree with litterally every single conclusion.
Well, every single one, except perhaps art, which I simply can't be bothered to notice;).

And the best part is, if I apply your logic, both games lose to FWTD:p!

QuoteBTW, the fantasy part people don't like - that actually makes Shadowrun better Sci-Fi, but that's a different post. :D

I get the feeling I'd disagree with it just as strongly, but at least, that's a post I'd want to read, since Shadowrun felt "barely SF" when I read it:D!

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438So while Cyberpunk 2020 might be closer to the actual settings of some of the mirrorshades writers, I think Shadowrun, by differing from those settings more actually allows them to hit the tropes and channel the spirit better.

BTW, the fantasy part people don't like - that actually makes Shadowrun better Sci-Fi, but that's a different post. :D

Come on. ;)

Take any CP story: it's a bad world out there, and heck, it's our doing. We did that, we and our gadgetry, insatiable greed and the will to break all barriers if that's what stands before us and more power.

SR? Elves did that. Dragons did that. No sireeeeee, we're "innocent", merely victims of these spirit-summoning manipulators and whatnot.

Just joking, but you get my point. In SR's setting the part about being responsible for the current state of world is somehow missing. The reality is at least partially shaped by things and entities more powerful than the mankind and therefore typical inhabitant of this world might always say "I don't wanna point fingers, but..."

CP? Whether it's greedy Corporations, army warmongers, mad scientists or gangsters... It's us. We did it.

I understand this "problem" is rarely discussed, but for me it's one of pillars of Cyberpunk - the tale of the world gone wrong courtesy of mankind's greed.

What do you think?

Quote from: AsenRG;881448Yeah, it varies. It varies to the point where there's no use refuting your points one by one:). I simply disagree with litterally every single conclusion.

Weaksauce.  Give it a go.  For example, I'd like to hear how Cyberpsychosis (which is 100% reversible though therapy) is more Dehumanizing than loss of essence which is 0% reversible.

Quote from: AsenRG;881448Well, every single one, except perhaps art, which I simply can't be bothered to notice;)

Yeah, I'm sure Bladerunner would have just as awesome with a shoestring art and special effects budget.  There have been better episodes of Outer Limits than Ex Machina, but they didn't have awesome CGI robot chicks.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;881451Just joking, but you get my point. In SR's setting the part about being responsible for the current state of world is somehow missing. The reality is at least partially shaped by things and entities more powerful than the mankind and therefore typical inhabitant of this world might always say "I don't wanna point fingers, but..."

Sorry bro, you didn't read much Shadowrun.  Sure the danger of Universal Brotherhood comes from alien intelligences from another dimension/insect spirits.  Why are they getting converts though?  Because the Shadowrun world is cold, and isolating, and being a human being means nothing.  How fucked up does shit have to be for people to see a Hive Mind as a "good thing"?  Every time you encounter Insect Spirits you encounter broken people in pain.  The Invae are simply invasive predators and they take the easiest route, the sick and the wounded.  We're the ones however, that make the psychically sick and wounded in droves.

You think Immortal Elves do what they do because they're Elves?  Wrong.  They do what they do because they are Immortal.  The CEOs of the AAAs are just as megalomanical, and the members of the Corporate Court, who have greater than normal lifespans due to being in Space and medical bubbles while they experience everything through Simsense are even worse.  Give them 1000 years and see how fucked they are.

Look at one of the bestiaries and read the information about the creatures written as if it were an actual book by a in-setting scientist.  Notice how almost all of the fucked up and terrible things are due to toxins, radiation, etc in the environment?  That wasn't Dragons boyo, they were sleeping.  No, for all the existential threat of the cataclysm coming in 3000 years, humans are still destroying each other and the planet we all sit on on a daily basis, and we're still responsible for nearly all our own problems, including the racist, religious, persecution and destruction of anything brought about during the Sixth world awakening.  

Lofwyr doesn't represent dragonkind in a mythical sense, he represents the personification of the cold, calculating, inhuman corporation, which plays chess with the lives of millions and considers countries as pieces to move on the chessboard.

Shadowrun is 100 times more cutting in it's criticism and analysis of the things Cyberpunk writes about, but it's palatable and playable by people who normally would pop their clogs if they read the stuff because the fantasy elements are masks.

You can play Shadowrun as D&D with Cyber, sure, but there's a lot there if you actually dig into the supplements and the world material.  There's a method to the madness and it isn't Cyber-Tolkien hurr hurr.

That's why once the original writers left, the setting has been the weakest part of the IP, not the strongest, and they focus 100% on rules, because on the world front, they got nothing.  The personal stories, like the short fiction and novels are an exception, Critias being a good example.

I never did play Shadowrun, but damn me if Krug's posts don't make me want to. Badly.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881452I'd like to hear how Cyberpsychosis (which is 100% reversible though therapy) is more Dehumanizing than loss of essence which is 0% reversible.

I haven't actually cracked a book for either game since the years rolled over to starting with '2,' but I seem to recall (at least with the way we played) that neither was really reversible for the players. Sure therapy theoretically could fix loss of empathy, but there was no mechanic for it and you weren't going to take months out from playing your character so that they could get their score back up (I suppose the GM could just say "okay, you go get therapy and we'll start the game when you're done," but that's just a case of penalty-isn't-a-penalty-if-the-GM-wipes-it-away). I suppose from the character's perspective, they'd be less hesitant to get more cyber if they knew that the side effects could slowly get better. But for us, both were just maximum cybering meters (and of course if you hit 0 it was turn in your character sheet time).

Quote from: CRKrueger;881458Sorry bro, you didn't read much Shadowrun.  Sure the danger of Universal Brotherhood comes from alien intelligences from another dimension/insect spirits.  Why are they getting converts though?  Because the Shadowrun world is cold, and isolating, and being a human being means nothing.  How fucked up does shit have to be for people to see a Hive Mind as a "good thing"?  Every time you encounter Insect Spirits you encounter broken people in pain.  The Invae are simply invasive predators and they take the easiest route, the sick and the wounded.  We're the ones however, that make the psychically sick and wounded in droves.

You think Immortal Elves do what they do because they're Elves?  Wrong.  They do what they do because they are Immortal.  The CEOs of the AAAs are just as megalomanical, and the members of the Corporate Court, who have greater than normal lifespans due to being in Space and medical bubbles while they experience everything through Simsense are even worse.  Give them 1000 years and see how fucked they are.

Look at one of the bestiaries and read the information about the creatures written as if it were an actual book by a in-setting scientist.  Notice how almost all of the fucked up and terrible things are due to toxins, radiation, etc in the environment?  That wasn't Dragons boyo, they were sleeping.  No, for all the existential threat of the cataclysm coming in 3000 years, humans are still destroying each other and the planet we all sit on on a daily basis, and we're still responsible for nearly all our own problems, including the racist, religious, persecution and destruction of anything brought about during the Sixth world awakening.  

Lofwyr doesn't represent dragonkind in a mythical sense, he represents the personification of the cold, calculating, inhuman corporation, which plays chess with the lives of millions and considers countries as pieces to move on the chessboard.

Shadowrun is 100 times more cutting in it's criticism and analysis of the things Cyberpunk writes about, but it's palatable and playable by people who normally would pop their clogs if they read the stuff because the fantasy elements are masks.

You can play Shadowrun as D&D with Cyber, sure, but there's a lot there if you actually dig into the supplements and the world material.  There's a method to the madness and it isn't Cyber-Tolkien hurr hurr.

That's why once the original writers left, the setting has been the weakest part of the IP, not the strongest, and they focus 100% on rules, because on the world front, they got nothing.  The personal stories, like the short fiction and novels are an exception, Critias being a good example.

Yup, It's humans who fucked up and polluted the world, it's humans that put Native People in concentration camps, it's humans who started doing purges of innocent meta humans, it's human led Megacorps that rose to power and established themselves as above government law.

It's the human nation of Aztlan that is invading the more meta human led Brazilian nation and despoiling the rainforest creating toxic nature spirits..

It wasn't until humans fucked up the world that metahumans could get in on the action, like with the elves taking over Ireland and Oregon and oppressing all non elves and kicking out all the humans.

Oh yeah the killer A.I. That took over the world's largest acrology and made it his own personal torture playground? Also made by humans.


Edit,  oh and another reason Shadowrun was more cyberpunk than Cyberpunk2020, was right there in the "3 rules for 2020"

" Style over Substance " and" Take it to the edge " 2020 emphasizes looking cool and being 90s extreme more than dealing with gritty streets, unpersonhood, corporate dominance and life being cheap.

While I love some pink Mohawk RP in Shadowrun, it still emphasized an uncaring world with technology higher than ever and yet society facing the same exact problems only worse than they'd ever been.

The whole point of being a Shadowrunner was that it was the only way for your character to get out of poverty. They literally consider dehumanizing themselves with cyberware, risking their lives in brutal combat, and being left dying in a gutter, because it's better than the alternative.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881458Sorry bro, you didn't read much Shadowrun.  

Guilty as charged! Aside of selected WH40k-related works, I didn't enjoy much RPG based fiction. So, I assume that each RPG setting is defined primarily by its official sourcebooks, while additional works of fiction serve as kind of "expanded" vision.

When I look at the reality through the eyes of an inhabitant of SR's world, unaware about the Big Picture, I see a world broken, twisted, insane... And I see plenty of ways to explain that, the majority of which have not much to do with mankind abusing the environment, allowing his greed to guide him or abandoning the reason and playing God. Truth be told, in spite of all this gadgetry around, I don't see Cyberpunk-ish dark future. I see Post-apocalypse. Colorful, wild post-apo.

This feeling is lost on me the moment I enter CP setting void of all these fantasy elements, void of alternative explanations about why the world is as shitty as it is. When my characters look around, all they see is guilt, along the lines of "good men didn't do enough to stop evil in the past".

Yep, that'd be it.

Quote from: Orphan81;881499Yup, It's humans who fucked up and polluted the world, it's humans that put Native People in concentration camps, it's humans who started doing purges of innocent meta humans, it's human led Megacorps that rose to power and established themselves as above government law.

It's the human nation of Aztlan that is invading the more meta human led Brazilian nation and despoiling the rainforest creating toxic nature spirits..

It wasn't until humans fucked up the world that metahumans could get in on the action, like with the elves taking over Ireland and Oregon and oppressing all non elves and kicking out all the humans.

Oh yeah the killer A.I. That took over the world's largest acrology and made it his own personal torture playground? Also made by humans.

Objection! We merely reacted. Yep, that's it, no harm done, just a reaction. Move along citizen, move along... ;)

It's simple, really. Typical inhabitant of the world doesn't know what we, players know. They don't posses meta-knowledge and deep understanding of their world & its history, just like we don't exactly understand what is happening right now in various places all across the globe. We create clever explanations, tell ourselves how things are and sleep better, sure that our truth is better than theirs (whoever "they" might be).

The same goes for SR citizens. Some know how things are, some don't, some are led by half-truths or believe what they were being told by manipulators.

And since we, people, are hardwired to seek a scapegoat the moment shit hits the fan, it's only reasonable to assume that whole truckload of characters blame others for the state of SR's world, rather than point fingers at themselves.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;881511Objection! We merely reacted. Yep, that's it, no harm done, just a reaction. Move along citizen, move along... ;)

It's simple, really. Typical inhabitant of the world doesn't know what we, players know. They don't posses meta-knowledge and deep understanding of their world & its history, just like we don't exactly understand what is happening right now in various places all across the globe. We create clever explanations, tell ourselves how things are and sleep better, sure that our truth is better than theirs (whoever "they" might be).

The same goes for SR citizens. Some know how things are, some don't, some are led by half-truths or believe what they were being told by manipulators.

And since we, people, are hardwired to seek a scapegoat the moment shit hits the fan, it's only reasonable to assume that whole truckload of characters blame others for the state of SR's world, rather than point fingers at themselves.

You mean just like they do in every other cyberpunk story?  I don't remember the common citizens in Neouromancer, Count Zero, and Snow Crash blaming themselves for the state of the world.

Quote from: Orphan81;881515You mean just like they do in every other cyberpunk story?  I don't remember the common citizens in Neouromancer, Count Zero, and Snow Crash blaming themselves for the state of the world.

I already said that I'm discussing it from the perspective of RPG sourcebooks alone and I'll continue to do so.

That being said...

Allow me to repeat myself: And since we, people, are hardwired to seek a scapegoat the moment shit hits the fan, it's only reasonable to assume that whole truckload of characters blame "others" for the state of SR's world, rather than point fingers at themselves.

In a setting void of non-human beings? While other parts of Mankind will be blamed (oh, those vile corporations, oh those army bastards, it's the government, man...), it's still Mankind. We did that. Not some orcs, not some dragons. "They" are "us" and we are to blame, as opposite to "world would be the better place without those scaly bastards - look what they force us to do"...

This is - at least if you ask me - entirely different perspective, entirely different center of gravity.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;881520I already said that I'm discussing it from the perspective of RPG sourcebooks alone and I'll continue to do so.

That being said...

Allow me to repeat myself: And since we, people, are hardwired to seek a scapegoat the moment shit hits the fan, it's only reasonable to assume that whole truckload of characters blame "others" for the state of SR's world, rather than point fingers at themselves.

In a setting void of non-human beings? While other parts of Mankind will be blamed (oh, those vile corporations, oh those army bastards, it's the government, man...), it's still Mankind. We did that. Not some orcs, not some dragons. "They" are "us" and we are to blame, as opposite to "world would be the better place without those scaly bastards - look what they force us to do"...

This is - at least if you ask me - entirely different perspective, entirely different center of gravity.

One thing about the races, Orcs, Dwarves, Trolls and Elves are human.  Call them genetic throwbacks or genetic evolution but we share most of our DNA and can reproduce.  You know all those forms of Junk DNA we thought were non-coding, like Introns?  They're not non-coding, they just need a high enough mana level to activate.  Take a human and turn on his mana-sensitive DNA, you get a meta-human.

That's the nasty thing about racism against the metas, it's really just good old-fashioned human racism and genocide all over again.  That's us.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881524One thing about the races, Orcs, Dwarves, Trolls and Elves are human.  Call them genetic throwbacks or genetic evolution but we share most of our DNA and can reproduce.  You know all those forms of Junk DNA we thought were non-coding, like Introns?  They're not non-coding, they just need a high enough mana level to activate.  Take a human and turn on his mana-sensitive DNA, you get a meta-human.

That's the nasty thing about racism against the metas, it's really just good old-fashioned human racism and genocide all over again.  That's us.

Precisely!

That's exactly my idea. SR is the perfect setting for the exploration of bias, xenophobia, abuse and similar stuff not as a background, but as one of main themes. The origin of those who are not like us adds even more mess to that. It allows all those murderers to operate under the sun, call themselves "good people", organize some "purity" camps, form new religions and movements because, hey, they don't hurt anybody, they just... clean.

Heck. There will always be someone to blame, no matter what.

btw, I think that it's also one of themes in critically acclaimed Shadowrun:Returns video game, so I guess that I'm not the only person on Earth perceiving things that way. ;)

I forget who said this but I'll repeat it here:

Transhumanism is about how science and technology will make the world and humans better.  Cyberpunk is about how it doesn't.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;881509Guilty as charged! Aside of selected WH40k-related works, I didn't enjoy much RPG based fiction. So, I assume that each RPG setting is defined primarily by its official sourcebooks, while additional works of fiction serve as kind of "expanded" vision.

The novels are mostly irrelevant to the setting. That is about allways the case with novels for any game.

The background info for Shadowrun lays out very clearly that everything bad in the setting was initiated and often maintained by humans. In first edition at least all the meta races, orcs, trolls, elves, dwarves, etc, are human. Or more aptly were. And even that was triggered by thoroughly pissed off native americans. And it does all this in just a few pages.

Quote from: Omega;881557The novels are mostly irrelevant to the setting. That is about allways the case with novels for any game.

I see. I recall only a few RPG-based novels I actually enjoyed and they usually treat source material very lightly. The rest was quite painful to read. "Look people, he is using... brace for it... MAGIC MISSILE! Omg, look, Magic Missile, just like in the game!"

Naaaaah. ;)

Quote from: Omega;881557The background info for Shadowrun lays out very clearly that everything bad in the setting was initiated and often maintained by humans. In first edition at least all the meta races, orcs, trolls, elves, dwarves, etc, are human. Or more aptly were. And even that was triggered by thoroughly pissed off native americans. And it does all this in just a few pages.

That meta-humans come from normal humans - no question about it. That humans are responsible for plenty of bad stuff - guilty!

This is, however, meta-knowledge. To the "normal" people living in SR's reality, world isn't as straightforward and easy to explain. They hear about meta-human gangs, they know never to cut a deal with dragons, they read about people - normal people getting killed, disappearing... And they think. The idea that the "natural state of things" was disturbed by those "freaks, dragons, spirits and demons" they see around them is not a conspiracy theory, but a possibility.

This is only... natural. Not correct mind you, but natural. We always want to blame someone or something when we feel we lose control over things.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;881580This is, however, meta-knowledge. To the "normal" people living in SR's reality, world isn't as straightforward and easy to explain. They hear about meta-human gangs, they know never to cut a deal with dragons, they read about people - normal people getting killed, disappearing... And they think. The idea that the "natural state of things" was disturbed by those "freaks, dragons, spirits and demons" they see around them is not a conspiracy theory, but a possibility.

In the SR background at least everyone is still brutally aware that the metas were once people. Some of the other stuff the general populace has no clue. But overall they still know that an elf or an orc is a mutated human.

No one in setting seems to blame the metas for anything other than getting thoroughly pissed off at being slaughtered and kicking out of whatever sector they claim any humans. That may have changed in later editions. But that is irrelevant to the original premise.

QuoteBTW, the fantasy part people don't like - that actually makes Shadowrun better Sci-Fi, but that's a different post. :D

Not really. The fantasy elements undermine the cyberpunk ethos to the point that you end up with a sort of techno urban fantasy mish-mash that has a tolkeniesque paint job on top. :)

Oh, and Gibson kinda sums how I feel about Shadowrun as a cyberpunk work:

http://www.williamgibsonbooks.com/archive/2003_05_01_archive.asp#200265459

Quote from: william gibsonSHADOWRUN: GAG ME WITH A SPOON

No relationship. No permission. Nothing. Nary a word exchanged, ever.

Except that the admixture of cyberspace and, spare me, *elves*, has always been more than I could bear to think about.

I've just been ignoring it for years, and hope to continue to.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ul1MLc-_WnsJ:www.the-peak.ca/1998/10/cyberpunk-on-screen-william-gibson-speaks/+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Quote from: william gibsonSo when I see things like ShadowRun, the only negative thing I feel about it is that initial extreme revulsion at seeing my literary DNA mixed with elves. Somewhere somebody's sitting and saying 'I've got it! We're gonna do William Gibson and Tolkien!' Over my dead body!Š But I don't have to bear any aesthetic responsibility for it. I've never earned a nickel, but I wouldn't sue them. It's a fair cop. I'm sure there are people who could sue me, if they were so inclined, for messing with their stuff. So it's just kind of amusing.

BOOM.

it really is something else. even if it were true that it addresses the same themes or tropes that cyberpunk adresses better than cyberpunk itself does, SR is not cyberpunk anymore than steampunk is cyberpunk.

I can't speak authoritatively about SR. But I'm more than able to speak about CP2020.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438Dehumanization of technology - Cyberpunk has humanity score, and people can go crazy from too much cyber.  But you can have Full Conversion Borgs, so the cyber level can get pretty high.  Oddly enough, it's the fantasy element of Shadowrun that actually models dehumanization better through Essence.  You have a set amount you can lose, and even a little has a dramatic effect.  It makes you harder to heal.  It makes it harder to cast magic.  When viewed from the astral, your cyber is dead spots in your aura.  It's literally dehumanizing.  They both did a great job of cyber as consumer culture, with ads, mall clinics, etc...

Models it better? I suppose it's about what kind of conceit you wanna make for your game. Humanity rules in CP2020 (and Interface) assume that if you require cyber-therapy, it's not *just* sitting down on a couch and hashing out your issues. It's full stripping of your cyberware which you've come to identify as part of you, and possible meat-replacement (if you can afford it!) plus weeks of trance-induced AI regulated VR psychotherapy, and then you can get some points back. Of course, most GM's could wave that experience away - I didn't. It could be as bad as the Ludovico Technique (Clockwork Orange) x 10, or whatever. The point is - you give it the meaning you want it to convey in your game. If it's just a bunch of points on paper - /shrug that's on you. That's how you'll treat it. Likewise there is a mechanical hit you take since your Humanity rating directly impacts your Empathy score - which jacks a whole lot of your skills. Again - it depends on what your games are like. If you're playing Murder-Hobo Express - it won't matter much.

Edit: in my games, originally everyone went deep-cyber. When they saw how I imposed the social-penalties of living like that upon them, and the inevitable crossing of the cyberpsychosis line and how the cops would keep their necessary tabs on them until the eventual dam broke - they rarely went too far in.

There is very little reason to get that cybered up unless you plan on killing a whole lotta people. And those responsible for dealing with that kinda shit, can spot it a mile away.

Essence assumes one thing - that magic is in the world. And that's something I didn't care for in my CP2020. When I played Shadowrun 1e I let a vampire make me into a vampire so I could raise my Essence to 8 - I was a spellcaster. SWEET. My GM didn't think so.

While not apples to apples - I'm not sure I would make the same comparison based on the fact that they ultimately did different things, tho mechanically they kinda have overlap.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438Corporate Rule - They both do a good job of this, and both had their "Corporate War" elements.  I think Shadowrun detailed it more with the Corporate Court, the AAA megacorps aka The Big Eight, and the big difference, the Extraterritoriality aspect that made the buildings of the AAAs basically embassys where they're own law was in effect.

CP2020 had three entire splatbooks dedicated to several big megacorps. A couple of modules spun off them. A sourcebook for the United States (Home of the Brave) that went into solid deep detail on how the world of CP2020 happened including the interactions between the Corporations and the Government. Which led to an entire boxset (Land of the Free) which detailed a complete campaign set up as part of last great corporate war.

I dunno about Shadowrun... but the Corporate War defined CP2020's products from beginning to the literal end. Did you have to run your game inside it? No - but ignoring it would be like ignoring there's magic in your SR game.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438Art and the Punk aesthetic - This one hands down goes to Shadowrun.  The cover of Cyberpunk 2020 is cool, no doubt about it, you got a Bladerunner-like scene in the background, a cool solo in the frontground, corp chick behind.  But, it's clean.  The solo's wearing Gibson battlegear and a t-shirt but his hair looks good.  These are beautiful people.  The cover for Shadowrun is three punks in a filthy alley.  They have alternative hairstyles, tattoos, leather and denim.  For all the talk of the focus on Shadowrun being focused on Heat style runs, I think Cyberpunk actually strayed more toward Heat and Shadowrun more toward "Pink Mohawk" in the games I saw in 90s SoCal.

No arguments here. However I thought the low-rent painted art and the clean Patrick Nagel line-art was a nice contrast for CP2020. But it didn't compare to SR's stuff.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438Artifical Intelligence - Cyberpunk 2020 has nothing to match the menace and horror of Deus, an AI that poses potentially, a threat to all of humanity.  Even worse, Deus doesn't ape Skynet, and get free into the Matrix and take over the world, no Deus is locked away in the largest and richest Arcology (tying in with Corporate Rule) and the horror isn't being vaporized by a Terminator, but being taken to one of Deus' experimentation labs.

You might have a good point here. I think AI in CP2020 was too scary to really go into. Though some of the third-party modules did. Most of the AI's in CP2020 were gods-on-chains. The idea being no human could defeat one single-handedly in the net, but yet they pretended they could control them. It was something they could have done more with.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438Rich vs. Poor - The Redmond and Puyallup Barrens of Seattle, the Shattergraves of Chicago, the Rox in Boston.  Cyberpunk has it's Mad Max vibe with the Nomad lands, and Night City has it's slums, but Shadowrun has places where shit got so bad people are pushing into Morlock territory.  Again, the magic aspect lets it push this a little harder, with virus-affected ghouls, toxic shamans, etc... Also in adventures where the runners encounter the rich and famous,

CP2020 had its hellholes. Depends on where you wanted to set things. By default, Night City is like the Waterdeep of CP. But in the Home of the Brave book, and some of their modules, they outlined lots of locations that were plague-ridden, radioactive, and fuuuucked up. But of course, they didn't go into enough detail on those locales and left it up to GM's to do the heavy lifting. It's there - just you gotta do all the legwork. That said, there's plenty to capture the spirit of the class-struggle in Night City alone. Zoning based on income and corporate employment is an easy entry-point to make party-member feel like complete dogshit (for some). When you enforce social acceptance on the very minutiae of daily life - from what you wear, to what you eat and drink, and in some cases like in Los Angeles - the very AIR you breathe places you on the societal radar, it's very much in the spirit of the genre. Yeah CP2020 could have done better in this regard in terms of locale-writeups, but the implications of all that *are* there.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438The Dehumanized want to feel human - Sex, Drugs, Simsense.  Cyberpunk has it, a lot of it.  Shadowrun takes it to the level we actually would, ie. omnipresent, everywhere and the focus of some adventures.

CP2020 has lots of drugs, sex (they just leave it up to you, but it's very much part of the game - including cyber-enhancements: Mr. Studd impant and the Midnight Lady /snicker). Most of the VR stuff was there, they had a few modules based around it. Nothing I'd say was "whoa". Like in SR most of the net-based stuff was left to NPC's but unbeknownst to a lot of CP players, you didn't need to be a netrunner to create programs. I had several players that took programming to help bolster a PC-runner and they created a bunch of cool programs that developed into large-scale adventures in their own right. I always thought the CP2020 netrunning system had a lot going for it, but it suffered in the same way that SR's net-game did, in that it usually left the part out of the loop for too long. I'd overhaul it completely with a modern-rewrite.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438So while Cyberpunk 2020 might be closer to the actual settings of some of the mirrorshades writers, I think Shadowrun, by differing from those settings more actually allows them to hit the tropes and channel the spirit better.

Different ropes'n'strokes. The moment magic hits the table, most of the conceits of high-technology go flying out of the window, for me. Not that they can't co-exist.

I think it poses different questions and answers that I believe your proposition points to: if magic in addition to all of the cybertech that runs uniform through both games allow, in your opinion, SR to exemplify the spirit of cyberpunk more than CP2020 which you cede is closer to the written source material - yet that source material doesn't use magic, then the it's not the magic that allows this outcome.

I found the system in CP2020, better, faster, and more durable than SR1e (never played the others). I felt the conceits of CP2020 were about as honest to the source material as the game designed back then, on that budget, could get. If I put a magic system in there (and you kinda can if you leverage the Mekton Psionics system) - I don't feel adding trolls, and elves etc. and calling them mutations or whatever you need to justify their presence scientifically necessarily makes it better cyberpunk. To me it's how the GM expresses it in the game. I know fully well I could run a blistering SR game (I plan on doing it someday - if they ever make an edition whose system is well regarded by the "true SR fans" - of whom I'm not a member - but until then, outside of the novelty, I'm not sure I need all that stuff.

When I take on racism, class-struggle, cold-blooded tribalist murder, whatever - in my CP2020 games? I just do it. I don't need fancy metaphors for Troll-shaming (LOL couldn't resist) or whatever as a placeholder. But then I'm like that in all my games. CP2020 doesn't require it. I think SR doesn't either - but then if you accept the conceits of of SR, you don't need to. People WOULD be oppressive against those other races (even though they're human).

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438BTW, the fantasy part people don't like - that actually makes Shadowrun better Sci-Fi, but that's a different post. :D

Maybe. I'd love to see you make the post. My CP2020 wasn't sci-fi as much as it was just Heat and Crime/Spy stuff with super-tech.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438Hmm, Pundit's on to something here.  The "spirit" of Cyberpunk.  Obviously that's going to vary quite a bit.  However lets take a look at this.

Dehumanization of technology - Cyberpunk has humanity score, and people can go crazy from too much cyber.  But you can have Full Conversion Borgs, so the cyber level can get pretty high.  Oddly enough, it's the fantasy element of Shadowrun that actually models dehumanization better through Essence.  You have a set amount you can lose, and even a little has a dramatic effect.  It makes you harder to heal.  It makes it harder to cast magic.  When viewed from the astral, your cyber is dead spots in your aura.  It's literally dehumanizing.  They both did a great job of cyber as consumer culture, with ads, mall clinics, etc...

Corporate Rule - They both do a good job of this, and both had their "Corporate War" elements.  I think Shadowrun detailed it more with the Corporate Court, the AAA megacorps aka The Big Eight, and the big difference, the Extraterritoriality aspect that made the buildings of the AAAs basically embassys where they're own law was in effect.

Art and the Punk aesthetic - This one hands down goes to Shadowrun.  The cover of Cyberpunk 2020 is cool, no doubt about it, you got a Bladerunner-like scene in the background, a cool solo in the frontground, corp chick behind.  But, it's clean.  The solo's wearing Gibson battlegear and a t-shirt but his hair looks good.  These are beautiful people.  The cover for Shadowrun is three punks in a filthy alley.  They have alternative hairstyles, tattoos, leather and denim.  For all the talk of the focus on Shadowrun being focused on Heat style runs, I think Cyberpunk actually strayed more toward Heat and Shadowrun more toward "Pink Mohawk" in the games I saw in 90s SoCal.

Artifical Intelligence - Cyberpunk 2020 has nothing to match the menace and horror of Deus, an AI that poses potentially, a threat to all of humanity.  Even worse, Deus doesn't ape Skynet, and get free into the Matrix and take over the world, no Deus is locked away in the largest and richest Arcology (tying in with Corporate Rule) and the horror isn't being vaporized by a Terminator, but being taken to one of Deus' experimentation labs.

Rich vs. Poor - The Redmond and Puyallup Barrens of Seattle, the Shattergraves of Chicago, the Rox in Boston.  Cyberpunk has it's Mad Max vibe with the Nomad lands, and Night City has it's slums, but Shadowrun has places where shit got so bad people are pushing into Morlock territory.  Again, the magic aspect lets it push this a little harder, with virus-affected ghouls, toxic shamans, etc... Also in adventures where the runners encounter the rich and famous,

The Dehumanized want to feel human - Sex, Drugs, Simsense.  Cyberpunk has it, a lot of it.  Shadowrun takes it to the level we actually would, ie. omnipresent, everywhere and the focus of some adventures.

So while Cyberpunk 2020 might be closer to the actual settings of some of the mirrorshades writers, I think Shadowrun, by differing from those settings more actually allows them to hit the tropes and channel the spirit better.

BTW, the fantasy part people don't like - that actually makes Shadowrun better Sci-Fi, but that's a different post. :D

You just articulated my own opinion better than I could.

As I said in the beginning, I think Shadowrun managed to integrated it's fantasy elements with the cyberpunk millieu in a way that actually reinforced it instead of watering it down. Magic is of the "black", feared and prejudiced flavour (voodoo, shamanism, aztec blood rituals), fantasy races are there to heighten the intolerance and prejudice (just look at the the day of Rage and the Ork Underground), and even dragons are there just to seat at megacorp high seats and exploit what's left of humanity in unthinkable ways (it's said Lofwyr is capable of keeping tabs on every and each transaction hapenning in each of the hundreds subsidiaries of it's megacorp at the same time - he reached a form of optimization and exploitation faster than information technology ever could). It's one of the most oppressive settings ever.

BTW, I do have pretty much everything Cyberpunk 2020 including the Atlas stuff plus everything Shadowrun 1-3 on one of my bookshelves and a lot of Cyberpunk made it into my Shadowrun campaign, so I'm not dissing a game I never read or played.

SR1e was really not well done at all ruleswise.

As far as Magic goes, if any Sufficiently Advanced Science is indistinguishable from Magic, then any Magic which is structured, quantifiable, and 100% reproducible is indistinguishable from Science.  Shadowrun didn't put Fantasy in your Cyberpunk, Cyberpunk took over and assimilated your Fantasy.

As far as the different Cyberpunk elements and how hard they get hit.  
There's a lot more to the dystopia then just technology.  Shadowrun doesn't hit those harder due to magic, they hit those harder, period.  Certain areas of the Cyberpunk world are effectively lawless badlands outside the cities.  One of the worst slums in Shadowrun US is in the middle of Los Angeles, walled to keep everyone in just like the rich enclaves are walled to keep everyone out.  You don't even want to know what the corporations are doing in Africa, where there are no limits to what they can experiment on, or who.

When magic is used, it doesn't blunt the technology side, it adds to it and comes at the Cyberpunk themes a different way.  You want to experience helplessness, loss of control and violation?  A mage could not only control your thoughts you make you want to kill your wife, they can control your emotions to make you like it.

Talk about surveillance state, welcome to astral projection.  Talk about right to privacy and right against self-incrimination, welcome to telepathy.

If the average human is a cockroach in Cyberpunk 2020, they're an aphid in Shadowrun.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881610Oh, and Gibson kinda sums how I feel about Shadowrun as a cyberpunk work:

http://www.williamgibsonbooks.com/archive/2003_05_01_archive.asp#200265459


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ul1MLc-_WnsJ:www.the-peak.ca/1998/10/cyberpunk-on-screen-william-gibson-speaks/+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


BOOM.

it really is something else. even if it were true that it addresses the same themes or tropes that cyberpunk adresses better than cyberpunk itself does, SR is not cyberpunk anymore than steampunk is cyberpunk.

William Gibson does not have the be all end all authority of what is, and is not Cyberpunk, just as Judas Priest does not have the ball all and end all of what is and is not metal.

I was one of the head developers of Interface Zero 2.0, and I don't have a right to say what is, and is not a cyberpunk game either. Shadowrun bills itself as Cyberpunk, and most of it's fans consider it cyberpunk..

The fact it has elves and magic on top of all the cyberpunk themes does not invalidate those themes and ideas..

Further, Gibson owes a lot to Philip K Dick and Robert Heinlen, as well as William S Buroughs...complaining he was "Ripped off" while giving Cyberpunk2020 a pass for the same damn thing, or not going after Snowcrash for using the same concepts simply shows his personal bias.

Quote from: Orphan81;881647William Gibson does not have the be all end all authority of what is, and is not Cyberpunk, just as Judas Priest does not have the ball all and end all of what is and is not metal.

I was one of the head developers of Interface Zero 2.0, and I don't have a right to say what is, and is not a cyberpunk game either. Shadowrun bills itself as Cyberpunk, and most of it's fans consider it cyberpunk..

The fact it has elves and magic on top of all the cyberpunk themes does not invalidate those themes and ideas..

Further, Gibson owes a lot to Philip K Dick and Robert Heinlen, as well as William S Buroughs...complaining he was "Ripped off" while giving Cyberpunk2020 a pass for the same damn thing, or not going after Snowcrash for using the same concepts simply shows his personal opinion.

Fixed that for you. And Gibson admits, in the quoted text, that he owes a lot to others.

That SR has elves and magic makes it different from pure cyberpunk, I'm not sure why that's so hard to accept.

Quote from: Orphan81;881647William Gibson does not have the be all end all authority of what is, and is not Cyberpunk, just as Judas Priest does not have the ball all and end all of what is and is not metal.

If judas priest said that Justin Bieber isn't metal, I'd be inclined to agree with him. I'm inclined to listen to people who help to define a genre.

QuoteI was one of the head developers of Interface Zero 2.0, and I don't have a right to say what is, and is not a cyberpunk game either. Shadowrun bills itself as Cyberpunk, and most of it's fans consider it cyberpunk..

I identify, I mean bill myself, as the emperor of Uranus. D&D 4 bills itself as D&D.

More to the point, I could sit down to write a short story about fairies and gnomes and bill it as cyberpunk. Would it be? So no, your argument must be resting on something else other than quasi identity politics.

The point in quoting Gibson is that the people whose work defined and was formative of the genre carry a weight in their opinions that others who came along later don't-- especially when they insert elements that undermine the basic ethos of the genre. Cyberpunk is firmly in the sci-fi camp, and magic is in the realm of science fantasy at best.

QuoteThe fact it has elves and magic on top of all the cyberpunk themes does not invalidate those themes and ideas..

 It may not, but the sum of all those parts cyberpunk do not make.

I have no idea how I managed to miss this thread this long, but I'm givin' some stuff a read-through and trying to play catch up.  Holler if there's any particular questions/issues I can try to tackle, in the meantime, on the SR side of things (I've got plenty of CP:2020 experience, too, mind, but only as a reader/player/geek).

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881661It may not, but the sum of all those parts cyberpunk do not make.

So a setting or book that has all the trappings of cyberpunk. But also has mutants and magic. Is somehow invalidated? yeah riiiiight.

I could see this argument if the whole setting were magic. Spell based net and netrunning equivalents, magical prosthetics and enhancements instead of tech. But Shadowrun is about 75% cyberpunk. 15% mutants, and 10% magic. It might not be pure cyberpunk. But its darn close. And lets not forget that in a cyberpunk setting people can surgically or biomod themselves to look like elves, if they wanted. Oh no! Cyberpunk is for the ruined foreverz!

They can't mod themselves to cast magic. If the conceit in SR was that large swaths of people are moding  themselves to look like Tolkien  races, that conceit would be founded on the base conceit that tech allows you to do it. Is that how SR explains the existence of elves and why they came back in that world?

As to the larger point that it isn't cyberpunk, because magic has a prominent place in it, let's just say that you don't call a liger a tiger or a lion. It's called a liger for a reason. SR is sci-fantasy or cyberfantasy. It's not Cyberpunk. SR is a metaphorical mule.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881739As to the larger point that it isn't cyberpunk, because magic has a prominent place in it, let's just say that you don't call a liger a tiger or a lion. It's called a liger for a reason. SR is sci-fantasy or cyberfantasy. It's not Cyberpunk. SR is a metaphorical mule.

None of you have defined what cyber punk is.  I'm pretty sure i could run the most cyber punk imaginable game right in middle earth.  Either with the human numinorian kings getting their rings and becoming ring wraiths or in Suarmans domain as his mind is turning to wheals and gears.  But maybe not becuase no one has said what the defining charctrristis of the genera are.

I would quite like to read the post about how magic makes shadow run more cyber than 2020 but until we do no point in arguing with what we think he will put in there.

Quote from: AsenRG;881660..
That SR has elves and magic makes it different from pure cyberpunk, I'm not sure why that's so hard to accept.

Pure cyberpunk? I think I smell haggis...

I happen to love Cyberpunk 2013/2020 and the Shadowrun world, at least earlier incarnations of it.  Cyberpunk is certainly a large enough umbrella to keep each dry.

I also think Gibson is one of the best writers I've ever had the pleasure to read, but I don't take his personal opinions as holy writ and call out heresies based upon them.

Quote from: Brander;881799Pure cyberpunk? I think I smell haggis...

I happen to love Cyberpunk 2013/2020 and the Shadowrun world, at least earlier incarnations of it.  Cyberpunk is certainly a large enough umbrella to keep each dry.

I also think Gibson is one of the best writers I've ever had the pleasure to read, but I don't take his personal opinions as holy writ and call out heresies based upon them.

Well, "cyberpunk" vs "cyberpunk-inspired urban fantasy", if you prefer;).

I don't think Gibson is in my Top 10, and I'm not the one who quoted it. But I've been holding the same opinion long before I learned he agrees, which of course means he knows what he's talking about on that account:D!

Quote from: Headless;881764None of you have defined what cyber punk is.  I'm pretty sure i could run the most cyber punk imaginable game right in middle earth.  Either with the human numinorian kings getting their rings and becoming ring wraiths or in Suarmans domain as his mind is turning to wheals and gears.  But maybe not becuase no one has said what the defining charctrristis of the genera are.

I would quite like to read the post about how magic makes shadow run more cyber than 2020 but until we do no point in arguing with what we think he will put in there.

Part of that is describing what it isnt. It isn't Tolkien or magic, that's for sure.

You could argue there is room for some surrealism if you were to point at Bear's Petra (though that's more about mysticism , given that God died in that story; nothing about Tolkienish  fantasy). 400 Boyz has a surrealistic ending too, but no Tolkienish stuff. Gibson included a story in burning chrome  that was also urban weird; nothing about Tolkien or magic. City Come A'Walking, surrealistic elements explained as a Jungian  universal unconscious manifested physically, oh and the existence of an afterlife  ...and you guessed it...no out of place Tolkienish stuff or magic of that type.

The common thread in most cyberpunk (that  Ive been exposed to) is a human centered near future, usually with high technology, but sometimes more post apocalyptic (400 Boyz). Only three canon stories that I've read have any surrealistic elements.

If anyone else has read canon stuff that includes tolkienish  elements and fantasy magic, please chime in. I'm willing to be wrong if the canon proves me wrong.

Quote from: tenbones;881378I was remiss for not mentioning the 'Aubry Knight' series from Steven Barnes (he also co-wrote Dream Park with Larry Niven). But the "Streetlethal" books with Aubry Knight had a big impact on my cyberpunk sensibilities. Steve is a great guy. I met him once many years ago, and he was such a gracious guy.

Yay for mentions of Streetlethal, and the implied reference to Gorgon's Child.

I see I've missed a great deal of discussion about the definitions of Cyberpunk, and mentions of Transhumanism.  

I've discussed this here before, and probably better than I'm about to now, but I'd like to put my imprimatur on this discussion once more.

Cyberpunk directly addresses when technology begins to outstrip our humanity, and the subsequent consequences. Transhumanism is what happens after the people of a cyberpunk world begin making that same technology a part of their humanity... and the subsequent consequences.




Transhumanism tends to be lighter in tone, it seems more... hopeful, but I think that hope is fundamentally more a part of the cyberpunk genre, at least in the works of Gibson.  All of his works end in fundamentally transformative events which lead to the coming transhuman future, such as the Idoru using nanotech to become Real, or the AI's in Neuromancer having a baby, and thus proving they are 'alive'.

In a sense Cyberpunk often captures that 'darkest before the dawn' moment, while Transhuman fiction is set at, or just after that same dawn.  They are fundamentally related genres, though of course any individual setting/work can obviously ignore the connection.

That's as good a description of how those genres are related as one could reasonably fill in a forum post:).

:hatsoff:

thank you.  Its been a thought I've been banging on for years, so I should be able to express it clearly...

Then again, I don't know why I keep banging on it... I'm also (one of) the guy who tries to point out how Genre is entirely artificial, and any attempt to work based on genre, or critique from genre is doomed to mediocrity by default.  Genre is what gets applied AFTER a work of art is done.

Quote from: Brander;881799Pure cyberpunk? I think I smell haggis...

I happen to love Cyberpunk 2013/2020 and the Shadowrun world, at least earlier incarnations of it.  Cyberpunk is certainly a large enough umbrella to keep each dry.

I also think Gibson is one of the best writers I've ever had the pleasure to read, but I don't take his personal opinions as holy writ and call out heresies based upon them.

1: Im waiting for one of them to play the "True Fan" card.

2: Add in TORGs Cyberpapacy. Also dry under the umbrella.

3: I think Gibson is an ok writer who took a genre and expanded it. But he also comes across as a petty crook with delusions of self importance. At the end of the day hes just another Game Workshop.

Shadowrun is science fantasy:

http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic, and fantasy creatures co-exist."

http://shadowrun.gamepedia.com/Shadowrun_Returns

"Shadowrun Returns is a science fantasy turn based tactical role-playing game developed and self-published by Harebrained Schemes."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy tabletop role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic and fantasy creatures co-exist. It combines genres of cyberpunk, urban fantasy and crime, with occasional elements of conspiracy fiction, horror and detective fiction"

Quote from: Spike;881838I see I've missed a great deal of discussion about the definitions of Cyberpunk, and mentions of Transhumanism.  

I've discussed this here before, and probably better than I'm about to now, but I'd like to put my imprimatur on this discussion once more.

Cyberpunk directly addresses when technology begins to outstrip our humanity, and the subsequent consequences. Transhumanism is what happens after the people of a cyberpunk world begin making that same technology a part of their humanity... and the subsequent consequences.




Transhumanism tends to be lighter in tone, it seems more... hopeful, but I think that hope is fundamentally more a part of the cyberpunk genre, at least in the works of Gibson.  All of his works end in fundamentally transformative events which lead to the coming transhuman future, such as the Idoru using nanotech to become Real, or the AI's in Neuromancer having a baby, and thus proving they are 'alive'.

In a sense Cyberpunk often captures that 'darkest before the dawn' moment, while Transhuman fiction is set at, or just after that same dawn.  They are fundamentally related genres, though of course any individual setting/work can obviously ignore the connection.

Let me repeat what you just said:  Transhumanism is how science and tech will make us better.  Cyberpunk is how it won't.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881903Shadowrun is science fantasy:

http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic, and fantasy creatures co-exist."

http://shadowrun.gamepedia.com/Shadowrun_Returns

"Shadowrun Returns is a science fantasy turn based tactical role-playing game developed and self-published by Harebrained Schemes."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy tabletop role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic and fantasy creatures co-exist. It combines genres of cyberpunk, urban fantasy and crime, with occasional elements of conspiracy fiction, horror and detective fiction"

Fine we get it, you're afraid of getting your chocolate into the peanut butter.  Can we move on now?

This is about Cyberpunk 2020, not about some butthurt between SR and CP.

*SNICKER*

Quote from: Christopher Brady threw this hissy-fit:;881906This is about Cyberpunk 2020, not about some butthurt between SR and CP.

Talk to the people who inserted Shadowrun in a Cyberpunk  thread. Maybe they'll obey your authority, "boss."

Quote from: Christopher Brady threw this hissy-fit:;881906Fine we get it, you're afraid of getting your chocolate into the peanut butter.

Not the case. I might enjoy the mix just fine, but I don't call it something it isnt.

 

Quote from: Christopher Brady threw this hissy-fit:;881906Can we move on now?

Yes, you have my permission to move on  to another thread any time you want, whenever the facts being cited here are not to your liking.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881914Yes, you have my permission to move on  to another thread any time you want, if you don't like to see the facts being cited here.

I don't care the amount of padding this thread is getting because of the self-righteous butthurt it's getting.  Can we please keep it on topic?  There's an SR thread you can take all the exception to that's on the front page right now!  In fact the title has your dreaded "Oh NOES!  They're calling Shadowrun CYBERPUNK!  HOW COULD THEY! THE PHILISTINES!"  Go play there.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881915I don't care the amount of padding this thread is getting because of the self-righteous butthurt it's getting.  Can we please keep it on topic?  There's an SR thread you can take all the exception to that's on the front page right now!  In fact the title has your dreaded "Oh NOES!  They're calling Shadowrun CYBERPUNK!  HOW COULD THEY! THE PHILISTINES!"  Go play there.

Your impotent delusions of authority are pretty amusing. Good luck getting everyone on this thread to stay on the topic you u want.

And I'm now on topic, as you can see from the thread OP.so get your punk ass to another thread if others opinions hurt your fee fees, lol.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827423According to a conversation posted in TBP (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?754612-Cyberpunk-Gaming-Bleeding-Edge-Emergent-Gameplay-and-Eric-Brennan):



I call bullshit. I don't see anything at all in its core about being that. I see rules for firefights, cyberdecking, etc. Hell, I don't even see what is being claimed above in the fluff surrounding it.

Am I blind?

Also ,  Shadowrun is science  fantasy .

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881661More to the point, I could sit down to write a short story about fairies and gnomes and bill it as cyberpunk. Would it be? So no, your argument must be resting on something else other than quasi identity politics.

And if said fairy is cybered to the gills and running an APC through a corporate office to express his irritation for being stuffed on payment for a delivery it isn't? I've had some fun with the concept, imagine the short guy from highschool with a chip on his should, halve his size, double the ego and plug him into a small army of drones and vehicles. Makes for funny results.

Here's what shadowrun does really well, it takes those themes from cyberpunk and projects them on a canvas that people don't personally associate with. Folks get a lot less defensive about issues such as poverty, inequality and exploitation when it's elves exploiting orcs and you can roll around in a whole host of things that would cause some folks heads to explode if you spoke about it in direct terms. When you have orks who have half the human life span and elves with double you can discuss inequality in the starkest of terms without much of anyone being able to raise a complaint.

Even magic is reduced as a means to an end, a poor kid with magic can either get himself owned by a corporation or use it as an edge to work the street. There is no wish spell in shadowrun.

The dragons or ancient elves who most resemble anything objectionable from Tolkien, now have to compete with every jackass with a missile launcher and a few of them have lost that bet. They're just another set of powers to undermine or be stomped on by. Lofwry for instance, great dragon, personally runs a megacorp, finances shadowruns occasionally to amuse himself and often sees it as a game. Not one he's going to let you win, but a past time for himself. He's adapted. It's the ones who didn't adapt to the cyberpunk world and it's power structures that ate a missile, and the world as a whole moved on.

The fantasy heightens the themes as it brings an even greater contrast with core conceits. At least as it's been used. Though the gamey approach of this latest edition has turned me off, and I've been making snide comments about 'technology is magic', the setting itself is hardly Tolkien fantasy.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881919Your impotent delusions of authority are pretty amusing. Good luck getting everyone on this thread to stay on the topic you u want.

And I'm now on topic, as you can see from the thread OP.so get your punk ass to another thread if others opinions hurt your fee fees, lol.

So, uh, you admit that Cyberpunk is fantasy? Right? :D

Quote from: MrHurst;881955And if said fairy is cybered to the gills and running an APC through a corporate office to express his irritation for being stuffed on payment for a delivery it isn't? I've had some fun with the concept, imagine the short guy from highschool with a chip on his should, halve his size, double the ego and plug him into a small army of drones and vehicles. Makes for funny results.

Here's what shadowrun does really well, it takes those themes from cyberpunk and projects them on a canvas that people don't personally associate with. Folks get a lot less defensive about issues such as poverty, inequality and exploitation when it's elves exploiting orcs and you can roll around in a whole host of things that would cause some folks heads to explode if you spoke about it in direct terms. When you have orks who have half the human life span and elves with double you can discuss inequality in the starkest of terms without much of anyone being able to raise a complaint.

Even magic is reduced as a means to an end, a poor kid with magic can either get himself owned by a corporation or use it as an edge to work the street. There is no wish spell in shadowrun.

The dragons or ancient elves who most resemble anything objectionable from Tolkien, now have to compete with every jackass with a missile launcher and a few of them have lost that bet. They're just another set of powers to undermine or be stomped on by. Lofwry for instance, great dragon, personally runs a megacorp, finances shadowruns occasionally to amuse himself and often sees it as a game. Not one he's going to let you win, but a past time for himself. He's adapted. It's the ones who didn't adapt to the cyberpunk world and it's power structures that ate a missile, and the world as a whole moved on.

The fantasy heightens the themes as it brings an even greater contrast with core conceits. At least as it's been used. Though the gamey approach of this latest edition has turned me off, and I've been making snide comments about 'technology is magic', the setting itself is hardly Tolkien fantasy.

Beautiful post. Bravo. :hatsoff:

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881903Shadowrun is science fantasy:

http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic, and fantasy creatures co-exist."

http://shadowrun.gamepedia.com/Shadowrun_Returns

"Shadowrun Returns is a science fantasy turn based tactical role-playing game developed and self-published by Harebrained Schemes."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy tabletop role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic and fantasy creatures co-exist. It combines genres of cyberpunk, urban fantasy and crime, with occasional elements of conspiracy fiction, horror and detective fiction"

I am not interested in the Coles notes version of a definition.  I am not some Mom or dad looking up scary books on the internet so I can find out what my troubled teen is reading.  

Appeal to authority is the weakest firm of argument.  I and everyone else on this form know more about the subject matter, than the writers of the pathetic, plebeian, pre-chewed drivel you smeared across this discussion.  I will shatter your coraperate molds, and trample the simple assembly line truths that come from them.  I will forge my own truth, find my own definitive core of the genera, I will glean the deep truths from the opinions of like minded nerds, forge it from the casualties of our flame wars!

  Sorry got carried away.  


If the core of cyber punk is about how technology our strips our humanity.  I think there is a kick ass cyber punk story about the human kings being given rings by Suron and losing their humanity.  Becoming ring wraiths.  There is another one about Suarmon using gears and wheels to improve orcs and replacing humans with them.

As an aside, I bought a copy of the Apocalype World-powered RPG The Sprawl and it is all kinds of fucking sweet.

I may start another thread on it, or run a Hangouts game if anyone is interested.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;882139As an aside, I bought a copy of the Apocalype World-powered RPG The Sprawl and it is all kinds of fucking sweet.

I may start another thread on it, or run a Hangouts game if anyone is interested.

So the sex moves got a good upgrade, eh? :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;882144So the sex moves got a good upgrade, eh? :D

No sex moves.  If I have one complaint, the pre-game History questions are kind of weak.

It's much more matter of fact than Apocalypse World, but probably as evocative as Saga of the Northlanders, which is high praise from me.

EDIT:  Now I see what you did.  That's what I get for posting while I watch TV.  I suck. :)

Quote from: Future Villain Band;882139As an aside, I bought a copy of the Apocalype World-powered RPG The Sprawl and it is all kinds of fucking sweet.

I may start another thread on it, or run a Hangouts game if anyone is interested.

If I may ask:  Was it you who coined the (what I'm going to para)phrase:  
"Transhumanism is about how technology makes us better.  Cyberpunk is about how it won't."

If not, do you know who it was back on TBP?  I want to attribute it to the right person, because something so simply genius (and in my personal perception accurate) needs to be acknowledged.

In my opinion.

Quote from: Omega;881971So, uh, you admit that Cyberpunk is fantasy? Right? :D

Only if you admit that D&D 4e did D&D better than any version of D&D. :)

Quote from: Headless;882129I am not interested in the Coles notes version of a definition.  I am not some Mom or dad looking up scary books on the internet so I can find out what my troubled teen is reading.  

Appeal to authority is the weakest firm of argument.  I and everyone else on this form know more about the subject matter, than the writers of the pathetic, plebeian, pre-chewed drivel you smeared across this discussion.  I will shatter your coraperate molds, and trample the simple assembly line truths that come from them.  I will forge my own truth, find my own definitive core of the genera, I will glean the deep truths from the opinions of like minded nerds, forge it from the casualties of our flame wars!

  Sorry got carried away.  

Um, maybe read the thread first? Haha

I put that up because someone said that SR billed itself as cyberpunk, therefore it is cyberpunk. The game's own wiki sites bills it as sci-fantasy, so that was my point.

QuoteIf the core of cyber punk is about how technology our strips our humanity.  I think there is a kick ass cyber punk story about the human kings being given rings by Suron and losing their humanity.  Becoming ring wraiths.  There is another one about Suarmon using gears and wheels to improve orcs and replacing humans with them.

Quote from: MrHurst;881955Here's what shadowrun does really well, it takes those themes from cyberpunk and projects them on a canvas that people don't personally associate with. Folks get a lot less defensive about issues such as poverty, inequality and exploitation when it's elves exploiting orcs and you can roll around in a whole host of things that would cause some folks heads to explode if you spoke about it in direct terms. When you have orks who have half the human life span and elves with double you can discuss inequality in the starkest of terms without much of anyone being able to raise a complaint.

Even magic is reduced as a means to an end, a poor kid with magic can either get himself owned by a corporation or use it as an edge to work the street. There is no wish spell in shadowrun.



The fantasy heightens the themes as it brings an even greater contrast with core conceits. At least as it's been used. Though the gamey approach of this latest edition has turned me off, and I've been making snide comments about 'technology is magic', the setting itself is hardly Tolkien fantasy.

Magic is not high technology. If you have to use magic to highlight tropes and themes present in cyberpunk, then you're essentially addressing tropes and themes via a different genre. Call it cyberfantasy or sci fantasy. Or call it cyberpunk, if you want, but you'd be wrong.  

You can look back up thread as to why I think this is, but I'll summarize again:

The term cyberpunk as coined and later appropriated by Sterling does not include magic in it. You can look at the mirrorshades intro or any number of writings, and it's very clearly about technology, not magic. I've already posted about how Gibson feels about that. Their opinions carry weight being as they helped shape the genre, and that Sterling himself appropriated the portmanteau to describe the stories he was collecting. Again: it's all about technology, not about magic, and even less about tolkienish high fantasy or tolkienish anything. Once you add those things as part of your base, you're creating a new thing.

http://project.cyberpunk.ru/idb/mirrorshades_preface.html

And it's not only w hat they  have to say, it's what the canon literature itself portrays.

If you feel like none of that carries any weight, then what can I say, except that I disagree with your base assumptions on the matter and that we will never see eye to eye on the subject.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881915I don't care the amount of padding this thread is getting because of the self-righteous butthurt it's getting.  Can we please keep it on topic?  There's an SR thread you can take all the exception to that's on the front page right now!  In fact the title has your dreaded "Oh NOES!  They're calling Shadowrun CYBERPUNK!  HOW COULD THEY! THE PHILISTINES!"  Go play there.

Well some of us aren't saying that. SR certainly covers genre themes. I think SR is to the cyberpunk-genre what D&D is to the fantasy-"genre". It's its own thing.

"D&D Fantasy" as discussed in many other threads, is its own brand of fantasy with its own conceits. In many ways, to me, SR poses a more interesting questions on the other side of the fantasy/sci-fi fence (which might be more appropriate for another thread) and that is: What is D&D-fantasy like extrapolated outwards towards modernity? SR scratches an interesting potential surface of this idea.

As for using fantasy iconography and memes inserted into a cyberpunk-setting as a means to "better contrast" the themes of the cyberpunk-genre, in order to ostensibly allow a point of entry for those sensitive to such topics? I say... whatever floats your boat. But it's just putting greasepaint on an already ugly face.

It's like coddling a kid to get them to swallow a pill they otherwise wouldn't like. And hey, that's cool. I'd rather just look at SR as it's own thing. I think arguments of taking cyberpunk-themes and slapping a coat of fantasy on it and saying "see! any genre could do this!" is pretty reductionist to the conceits of genres themselves. I might even go so far as to say it's arguing for arguing's sake.

I could easily recreate Spelljammer to reflect all the conceits of 2001, or Foundation and rant over the Internet that those books aren't sci-fi, using this line of thinking. Setting matters. How much it matters is up to you.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882269Only if you admit that D&D 4e did D&D better than any version of D&D. :)

I admit that 4e D&D Gamma World did 4e D&D better than 4e D&D. (But apocalyptically fails at being Gamma World.). :confused:

@azzorthconlechi

QuoteMagic is not technology

I think that's where we disagree.  If it is the surface that makes it cyber punk, than no you can't have elves.  If it's a theme than you can.  I think the high Sidhe could reside in cyber space very will.  With the twisted logic gates, and compellings and cumpulsions, and the inability to lie.  

I think there is a thematic similarity between Tolkin and cyber punk.  Tolkin in set in fallen times, with an oppressive central authority trying to take over being incomptantly resisted by small selfish governments.  There are gifts and new technology but they all carry a terrible cost interns of humanity.

Is "wind up girl" cyber punk?  There are hardly any computers at all.  It's been said in this thread that it's the best cyber punk in years.  Is it cyber punk.  What makes it cyber punk and not shadow run?

Quote from: Future Villain Band;882146No sex moves.  If I have one complaint, the pre-game History questions are kind of weak.

It's much more matter of fact than Apocalypse World, but probably as evocative as Saga of the Northlanders, which is high praise from me.

It's Icelanders, not Northlanders. :) And yeah, it's the best PbtA game in my opinion too.

About this Sprawl thing, never hears of it. Please tell me more.

Quote from: .;882321I think that's where we disagree.  If it is the surface that makes it cyber punk, than no you can't have elves.  If it's a theme than you can.  

High tech is not surface stuff; it's central to what drives main themes in cyberpunk.

Quote from: .;882321I think there is a thematic similarity between Tolkin and cyber punk.  Tolkin in set in fallen times, with an oppressive central authority trying to take over being incomptantly resisted by small selfish governments.  There are gifts and new technology but they all carry a terrible cost interns of humanity.

To me that is a non point. Genres don't have monopolies on themes. You can find thematic similarities between works spanning genres. There are similarities between Frankestein and Blade Runner. It doesn't make the former cyberpunk.

Quote from: .;882321I think the high Sidhe could reside in cyber space very will.  With the twisted logic gates, and compellings and cumpulsions, and the inability to lie.  

Cyberspace isn't built on magic, is it, though? If it is, then you're no longer in the realm of sci-fi.

Quote from: .;882321Is "wind up girl" cyber punk?  There are hardly any computers at all.  It's been said in this thread that it's the best cyber punk in years.  Is it cyber punk.  What makes it cyber punk and not shadow run?

I think making a distinction between computers and high tech is splitting hairs. The question is, is the "wind up girl" powered by magic?

Quote from: Headless;882321I think that's where we disagree.  If it is the surface that makes it cyber punk, than no you can't have elves.  If it's a theme than you can.  I think the high Sidhe could reside in cyber space very will.  With the twisted logic gates, and compellings and cumpulsions, and the inability to lie.

Why not both? The very aspect about cyberpunk that partially define cyberpunk is the pop-culture tropes of the setting itself which is lodged in pop-culture of the present/near future. Hell you have gangs of people in Cyberpunk 2020 that get surgical implants to *look* like fantasy elves. Theme certainly matters in genre. Drama isn't just limited to period-pieces it's a form of storytelling. So while symbolically these things might have the same resonances, they're not necessarily the same genre.

And *yes* that's one of the things about cyberpunk in general. It's trying to figure out what people can/could/would do in a setting, but as I said earlier - the setting, the surface as you put it, it matters.

Quote from: Headless;882321I think there is a thematic similarity between Tolkin and cyber punk.  Tolkin in set in fallen times, with an oppressive central authority trying to take over being incomptantly resisted by small selfish governments.  There are gifts and new technology but they all carry a terrible cost interns of humanity.

These are not themes in Tolkien's books. They are allusions to what might happen if Sauron comes to power. Nowhere was I feeling that things were oppressive in the cyberpunk sense because it was a setting with a prelude to war, not social imbalance and de-humanization. The narrative follows the characters trying to slam-dunk the ring into a volcano. Not gain justice for anyone, or change the status-quo of medieval feudalism. I think you're reaching to prove a very flimsy point using Tolkien.

Quote from: Headless;882321Is "wind up girl" cyber punk?  There are hardly any computers at all.  It's been said in this thread that it's the best cyber punk in years.  Is it cyber punk.  What makes it cyber punk and not shadow run?

Well it's not classical cyberpunk in the Gibson-sense. But it's definitely in the ballpark. You could tell the story of Wind-up Girl in CP2020, or any of the classical genre's author's worlds. You could tell Lord of the Rings too. Where a bunch of of social misfits adventure to try and destroy the CPU of a renegade and all powerful AI, without ever mentioning magic. Would it then be called "fantasy" to you?

And this is why setting matters.

Edit: god damn you ArrozConLeche... you're saying the same shit I am.

Remember though, it's not as if Shadowrun actually replaces any of that tech with magic.  It has all the tech, the corps, the whatever Cyberpunk 2020 has.

Pointed ears and reading minds - If I say Vulcan, science, if I say Elf, magic?
What if I say Homo Sapiens Nobilis?
Is it still science when Spock talks to the actual God Apollo?
Is Traveller magic because Zhodani?

Personally I think Shadowrun is less cyberpunk than CP2020. But still cyberpunk overall. But there were times when it could and did feel like anything but. Luckily for me those times were just about zero.

C P2020 is cyberpunk kitchen sink. If you can pull it off with tech or biotech then anything was possible. And like D&D, you could trim it into various emulations.

Which is why I think so many fans enjoy it more than Shadowrun. Probably helped by SR's gradual slippage from its origins.

In my mind, the whole debate is a lot of navel gazing. SR is "cyberpunk, with magic." Is that still cyberpunk? Make up your own mind. Gygax/Arneson D&D was "fantasy, with gonzo space ship wreckages". Traveller and Star Trek are "science fiction, with psychic powers, and occasionally gods."

Quote from: CRKrueger;882346Remember though, it's not as if Shadowrun actually replaces any of that tech with magic.  It has all the tech, the corps, the whatever Cyberpunk 2020 has.

I think we're starting to go in circles, at least as far as my argument goes. The existence of magic itself makes it sci-fantasy to me. If you have to explain anything in the setting by using magic instead of technology, you've already left the realm of sci-fi.

Shadowrun may incorporate Cyberpunk, but that's different than being cyberpunk.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882346Pointed ears and reading minds - If I say Vulcan, science, if I say Elf, magic?
What if I say Homo Sapiens Nobilis?
Is it still science when Spock talks to the actual God Apollo?
Is Traveller magic because Zhodani?

Personally, I find that psionics puts things into sci-fantasy. Therefore, to me, Star Trek is sci-fantasy.

By that stick, so is Akira (blasphemy, right?). My favorite part of Akira is the first half anyway, before any of the meta-physical stuff enters the picture.

That being said, I can see why people seem to be more accepting of psionics in sci-fi. It's pseudo-science (parapsychology?), and it's semi-credible enough to have had both the Russian and U.S. government waste money investigating that.

You can't even say that for magic and elves. Not even x-file style nuts believe magic and elves are a potential reality being hidden by the government.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;882437In my mind, the whole debate is a lot of navel gazing. SR is "cyberpunk, with magic." Is that still cyberpunk? Make up your own mind. Gygax/Arneson D&D was "fantasy, with gonzo space ship wreckages". Traveller and Star Trek are "science fiction, with psychic powers, and occasionally gods."

These are all sci-fantasy.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;882437In my mind, the whole debate is a lot of navel gazing. SR is "cyberpunk, with magic." Is that still cyberpunk? Make up your own mind. Gygax/Arneson D&D was "fantasy, with gonzo space ship wreckages". Traveller and Star Trek are "science fiction, with psychic powers, and occasionally gods."

This. /thread

Quote from: CRKrueger;882346Remember though, it's not as if Shadowrun actually replaces any of that tech with magic.  It has all the tech, the corps, the whatever Cyberpunk 2020 has.

Pointed ears and reading minds - If I say Vulcan, science, if I say Elf, magic?
What if I say Homo Sapiens Nobilis?
Is it still science when Spock talks to the actual God Apollo?
Is Traveller magic because Zhodani?

That part where I said "setting matters" - yeah that.

Cyberpunk is a sub-genre of sci-fi. So as any sub-genre or whatever deviation one wants to use in the taxonomy of such categories, it exists because it has conceits that make it distinct. To what degree? That's the real question right?

So all of your examples above are not germane to this topic since Original Recipe Star Trek is not "cyberpunk". Is it sci-fi? Generally yes.

To purists, and I'm not sure I'd be a purist (I've delved into low-level psionics for kicks and giggles in my CP2020 after a drunken Scanner's binge) the inclusion of aliens, aliens posing as gods, fantasy creatures explained via science - moves out of the cyberpunk genre and into other sub-genres of sci-fi.

That make sense? Again, I'm not saying that SR doesn't DO cyberpunkish things (thematically or even overtly - it obviously does), hell, staying with your Star Trek notion, there are episodes of Enterprise, and TNG, DS9, and the original ST that all have cyberpunkish themes. But the setting itself - with the Federation, aliens etc. represents a future that goes beyond the the standard setting conceits of "cyberpunk" as a whole.

But c'mon... you knew that.

Quote from: Omega;882388Personally I think Shadowrun is less cyberpunk than CP2020. But still cyberpunk overall. But there were times when it could and did feel like anything but. Luckily for me those times were just about zero.

C P2020 is cyberpunk kitchen sink. If you can pull it off with tech or biotech then anything was possible. And like D&D, you could trim it into various emulations.

Which is why I think so many fans enjoy it more than Shadowrun. Probably helped by SR's gradual slippage from its origins.

Cyberpunk to me is a snapshot of time right before transhumanism really kicks off. It really does bleed into that. The first mention of bioware which really does allow you to do things that deviate from the alienating notion of artificial replacement of parts *as* a cultural norm - to the point where there is no technical difference between the organic/inorganic is where most cyberpunk ideas start to dissolve.

It's kinda funny because all the talk about SR *being* representative of cyberpunk is really closer, assuming people are sticking to their guns in order to debate the point that whether someone looks like an orc/elf/dorf etc. could be done with bioware, and that tech that is sufficiently advanced enough would be magic, as their talking points - to me places SR closer to transhumanism in a very narrow corridor of thought. Because the real question would be: do you think this is how that "tech-as-magic" would express itself in our culture?

No. But the conceit of SR isn't that, is it? It's expressed that way in the game for other purposes to justify its own existence. That's why it's science-fantasy.

CP2020 is supposed to pose itself as a possible dark future lensed through the mindset of a sub-genre of science-fiction novels, movies, music from the 80's and early 90's.

Edit: I'm also not sure more people enjoy CP2020 *more* than SR. I have no hard evidence of that, especially given the number of SR editions that exist. There are a *lot* of SR players out there that know SR and love it from the RPG, novels and videogames. CP2020 didn't get the same penetration. But I could be wrong.

Quote from: Itachi;882475

Quote from: Willie the Duck;882437In my mind, the whole debate is a lot of navel gazing. SR is "cyberpunk, with magic." Is that still cyberpunk? Make up your own mind. Gygax/Arneson D&D was "fantasy, with gonzo space ship wreckages". Traveller and Star Trek are "science fiction, with psychic powers, and occasionally gods."

This. /thread

No. This:

Quote from: tenbones;882493Cyberpunk to me is a snapshot of time right before transhumanism really kicks off. It really does bleed into that. The first mention of bioware which really does allow you to do things that deviate from the alienating notion of artificial replacement of parts *as* a cultural norm - to the point where there is no technical difference between the organic/inorganic is where most cyberpunk ideas start to dissolve.

It's kinda funny because all the talk about SR *being* representative of cyberpunk is really closer, assuming people are sticking to their guns in order to debate the point that whether someone looks like an orc/elf/dorf etc. could be done with bioware, and that tech that is sufficiently advanced enough would be magic, as their talking points - to me places SR closer to transhumanism in a very narrow corridor of thought. Because the real question would be: do you think this is how that "tech-as-magic" would express itself in our culture?

No. But the conceit of SR isn't that, is it? It's expressed that way in the game for other purposes to justify its own existence. That's why it's science-fantasy.

CP2020 is supposed to pose itself as a possible dark future lensed through the mindset of a sub-genre of science-fiction novels, movies, music from the 80's and early 90's.

Edit: I'm also not sure more people enjoy CP2020 *more* than SR. I have no hard evidence of that, especially given the number of SR editions that exist. There are a *lot* of SR players out there that know SR and love it from the RPG, novels and videogames. CP2020 didn't get the same penetration. But I could be wrong.

./thread.

Quote from: tenbones;882492But c'mon... you knew that.

Yeah, and I also know within the setting of Shadowrun I can run an adventure that as far as the Cyberpunk genre goes, can go toe to toe with Cyberpunk 2020.  

When it walks, quacks, eats, shits, breathes, and stinks like a duck, I'm not sure that it's 100% fair to call it "not a duck" because it's purple.

At what point are genetics on or off the table?  Uplifted Dolphins on because Johnny Mnemonic?  What if Gibson hadn't written Johhny Mnemonic, are uplifted Dolphins off the table now?

Genetic plague that scrambles people's brains and turns them into monsters that crave human flesh?  Even though 100% viable in most Cyberpunk worlds, is it not Cyberpunk because someone now known as a Mirrorshades author never wrote it down?

Is Shadowrun PURE CYBERPUNK, no, of course not, but saying it's not even part of the same genre is pretty silly, IMO, especially when some of the core technologies of the genre, like AI and a true machine to mind neural interface are at this point in our science as much pure "fantasy" as any form of FTL drive or most forms of Nanotech.

It's a sub-genre of Cyberpunk, one that yeah, does add fantasy, but attempts to do it in as scientific a way as possible.

We're getting into a Peanut Butter/Chocolate thing, but Shadowrun is a Cyberpunk center with a Fantasy coating.

the dolphin is a cybernetically enhanced animal. it's existence is a result of technology, not the reappearance of "mana lines" and such that don't even begin to qualify as pseudo-science.

nanotechnology may be "fantasy" (i call it extrapolation) right now, but probably so were computers, the ability to fly to the moon, and the internet at some point in our history. there has been research into neural interfaces  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interface)for controlling limbs, and even craft.
it may turn out that the prediction of how cybernetics and nanotech are supposed to work will be a total miss.

However, you let me know if you think mana lines will, at some point in the future, be discovered, and whether people will start being born again as tolkienish looking equivalents as a result of some magical event.

Really, I don't think putting SR in the sci-fantasy category is unreasonable. Not only has the real world been slowly catching up to many Cyberpunk predictions, but the canon literature and the authors themselves draw this line.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882473I think we're starting to go in circles, at least as far as my argument goes. The existence of magic itself makes it sci-fantasy to me. If you have to explain anything in the setting by using magic instead of technology, you've already left the realm of sci-fi.

Shadowrun may incorporate Cyberpunk, but that's different than being cyberpunk.

Or, let me give an example that CRKrueger is going to recognize and understand:).

Compare and contrast the following statements. I agree with both in exactly equal measure, since they're structured in the exact same way:p.

• CP2020 and Shadowrun both have derived their themes from the cyberpunk genre, right? What does it matter that one of them also has magic, fucking elves, and dragons? They should all be considered the same thing! Why do you feel the need to say one is Cyberpunk (2020), and the other is Science Fantasy (SR)?
• All games have some means of action resolution to determine whether you succeeded, right? What does it matter that in some games the action also resolves whether the action resolves the underlying conflict, like shooting an apple to seduce a princess? They're both roleplaying games, and should be treated the same way! Why do you feel the need to say that one is a storygame?

Go ahead, CRKrueger, tell me whether I should agree with both, or disagree with both;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;882515Go ahead, CRKrueger, tell me whether I should agree with both, or disagree with both;)!

I already did when I said Shadowrun was not pure Cyberpunk.

Since you want to go there with mechanics...  

John Kim and I always go back to the Wine and Ketchup analogy (or when I'm being a dick, the shit in the ice cream analogy).  

One molecule of ketchup in the wine or enough ketchup that most people can't even taste it, probably doesn't matter.
You put a good squirt of ketchup in there, it pretty obviously becomes Wine with Ketchup, and no longer "Just Wine".
Unless you pour the glass into a tub and then fill the tub with ketchup, it will never become "Not Wine".

You start adding Narrative Mechanics into a Roleplaying Game, at some point you no longer have a Roleplaying Game, you have a Narrative Roleplaying Game.  You gotta go Full.Forge however, to get to some kind of Storygame that isn't roleplaying at all.

You start adding Fantasy elements into Cyberpunk, at some point you no longer have a Cyberpunk game, you have a Cyberpunk with Fantasy game.  You gotta basically eliminate everything Cyberpunk at all to get it to where you can call it "Not Cyberpunk at all".

Conan 2d20 is under no possible definition a "Roleplaying game" as opposed to "Narrative Roleplaying game".
Shadowrun is under no possible definition "not Cyberpunk at all" as opposed to "Cyberpunk with Fantasy".

Saying Shadowrun more properly belongs under Tolkien then Gibson just shows extreme ignorance of Shadowrun, Tolkien and Gibson.

Leche is doing the genre equivalent of saying all 2d20 discussions should be moved to the Other Games forum.

except there is already a well established term to describe such genre mashups (sci-fantasy), so why not acknowledge the difference and call it what it actually is? Cyberpunk doesn't capture what SR is-- sci-fantasy or cyberfantasy does.

I guess the thing that's important is how you break down genres, also how much do you care about style vs. substance or content vs. appearance.

What genre is the Sean Connery movie Outland?  A western with a Sci-Fi coat of paint, or a Science Fiction story (because space) that just happens to be a carbon copy of High Noon structure-wise?

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882526except there is already a well established term to describe such genre mashups (sci-fantasy), so why not acknowledge the difference and call it what it actually is? Cyberpunk doesn't capture what SR is-- sci-fantasy or cyberfantasy does.

That gets you to the argument that Shadowrun can't be good at Cyberpunk because it's not, it's essentially Tolkien hitting the tropes, which is horseshit.

The whole point of sub-genres is to include elements of the parent genre, yes? So Cyberpunk is a specific form of Sci-Fi, Sci-Fi and Fantasy are specific crossover forms of Speculative Fiction and Shadowrun is a specific form of Cyberpunk.

You want me to call it SRCP for short, I will, but nevertheless, it still hits some elements of the Cyberpunk genre harder than Cyberpunk 2020 does.

The correct term would be a space western.

If I was a fan of westerns and was recommended this movie as a 'western', without other identifying info, I would not be unjustified in expecting it to take place within the Mexico-South-West-US area, with a certain gun technology, and in a certain period.

Upon seeing that it takes place in outer space, I would probably think that being told it was a 'western' was at the very least incomplete, if not wrong. THat's why even modern era westerns are usually tagged as contemporary westerns.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882530That gets you to the argument that Shadowrun can't be good at Cyberpunk because it's not, it's essentially Tolkien hitting the tropes, which is horseshit.

To the extent that Shadowrun relies on magic to hit the tropes it can't be good at cyberpunk because Cyberpunk is based on technology, not magic. Never was. Never will. The literature that shaped the genre says so, the person that appropriated the term to describe the literature says so, one of the most important cyberpunk luminaries implies so...what more do you want?

QuoteThe whole point of sub-genres is to include elements of the parent genre, yes? So Cyberpunk is a specific form of Sci-Fi, Sci-Fi and Fantasy are specific crossover forms of Speculative Fiction and Shadowrun is a specific form of Cyberpunk.

I don't understand your point here. SHadowrun is not a subgenre. It's a cross over, as you say. Fantasy is not a parent of the Cyberpunk genre.

An elephant and a mouse are animals. THat doesn't mean that a mouse is a sub species of elephant, even if you were able to mix their dna.

QuoteYou want me to call it SRCP for short, I will, but nevertheless, it still hits some elements of the Cyberpunk genre harder than Cyberpunk 2020 does.

If it relies on magic to do so, it's not cyberpunk. BUt that doesn't mean that it can't hit elements that cyberpunk addresses harder. Cyberpunk does not have a monopoly on the elements it explores, after all.

Frankenstein arguably hits some elements of Cyberpunk harder than cyberpunk literature does. DOes that mean Frankestein is Cyberpunk? Or what if we say cyberpunk hits them better, does that then make Bladerunner or Neuromancer gothic literature?

Technology as defined by what?  A set canon?  It sure as hell better not be what Science has proven possible, because Cyberpunk itself then fails it's own test.  Is Cybergeneration, the sequel to Cyberpunk 2020 set in the same setting a "Cyberpunk RPG"?

Frankenstein doesn't include everything that exists in Cyberpunk, plus.
Shadowrun does.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882541Technology as defined by what?  A set canon?  

Technology as defined by shit not running on "mana" or any other 'woo woo' explanation? I mean, SR itself makes the distinction between tech and magic, otherwise why bother making the distinction?

I mean, SR is not pushing the whole "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" line. It's not saying that mana is a result of technology, or that magic is. It's not even trying to explain it in terms of actual physics. Has science has even proposed that there is such a force that might work like "mana"?

Magic in SR is treated as fantasy magic. If SR had wanted to go the Clarke route, it would have at least explained magic in terms of actual physical laws, rather than fall back on fantasy tropes.

QuoteIt sure as hell better not be what Science has proven possible, because Cyberpunk itself then fails it's own test.  Is Cybergeneration, the sequel to Cyberpunk 2020 set in the same setting a "Cyberpunk RPG"?

I never got into CyberGeneration. But we're talking about CP2020, no?

It's not about what's been proven possible, but what can be extrapolated from that. I ask you again, can mana, casting spells, and people being born as tolkien races be extrapolated from anything in science?

Anyone?

QuoteFrankenstein doesn't include everything that exists in Cyberpunk, plus.
Shadowrun does.

You were talking about hitting some themes/tropes, not all themes. Again, to the extent that shadowrun uses magic to hit those themes/tropes, it drifts itself into a different cross over genre.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882551You were talking about hitting some themes/tropes, not all themes. Again, to the extent that shadowrun uses magic to hit those themes/tropes, it drifts itself into a different cross over genre.

It hits every single trope with pure tech, thus satisfying the Cyberpunk definition, and then, as befitting a sub genre, hits it again with fantasy.

BTW, I think you need to do a little bit of research on the word technology and the kind of things allowed in classic Sci-Fi.  Your judgments of genre are based on what shelf at B&N something is.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882497Yeah, and I also know within the setting of Shadowrun I can run an adventure that as far as the Cyberpunk genre goes, can go toe to toe with Cyberpunk 2020.

Absolutely. It's all in there.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882497When it walks, quacks, eats, shits, breathes, and stinks like a duck, I'm not sure that it's 100% fair to call it "not a duck" because it's purple.

At what point are genetics on or off the table?  Uplifted Dolphins on because Johnny Mnemonic?  What if Gibson hadn't written Johhny Mnemonic, are uplifted Dolphins off the table now?

Genetics are certainly not off the table. As an outgrowth of projected science based on the research going forward, we're actually startlingly close to the very issues that CP2020 and its fiction-forbears predicted give or take a decade. Not on everything, but on a lot of things.

Genetics are definitely on the table. But as for your purple duck - I'm not saying it's not a duck. I'm saying that the *reasons* why it's a purple duck matter. In the context of the setting - if we say, it was genetically engineered to be a UV resistant mallard, no one would/should bat an eye.

If we're saying because a bunch of natives did a magical ceremony in the woods and poof! they manipulated quantum particles into reacting with the gene-structure of this duck to make it purple so it can be UV resistant... then we're confusing thematics with setting-conceits.

Magic *isn't* a core conceit of cyberpunk. It *is* a core-conceit of fantasy. So by adding this element to setting you're changing a conceit to fulfill a theme. This is an important idea I'll get to later.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882497Genetic plague that scrambles people's brains and turns them into monsters that crave human flesh?  Even though 100% viable in most Cyberpunk worlds, is it not Cyberpunk because someone now known as a Mirrorshades author never wrote it down?

I don't buy this, personally. I'm not a 100% purist (hell I dunno if even Sterling buys this).

But eff-it, let's run with it. Setting conceit - if it can be reasonably scientifically explained, then it's on the table. Saying a genetic plague that re-coded the Ophiocordyceps unilateralis fungus so it could work on humans... now you're talking cyberpunk. Zombies anyone? Is it possible? I think the proximity of *what* is reasonable has to be pretty close to the whatever science-conceits you're willing to project outward. So I don't think this is too much of a stretch given our current ability to splice genes now (CRISPR-cas9 etc.) And yeah, it's terrifyingly fun to contemplate for game-purposes.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882497Is Shadowrun PURE CYBERPUNK, no, of course not, but saying it's not even part of the same genre is pretty silly, IMO, especially when some of the core technologies of the genre, like AI and a true machine to mind neural interface are at this point in our science as much pure "fantasy" as any form of FTL drive or most forms of Nanotech.

It's a sub-genre of Cyberpunk, one that yeah, does add fantasy, but attempts to do it in as scientific a way as possible.

And here is where I will ask the same question in reverse and try to nail down that important point (to me) that I mentioned earlier. I'm fine with people calling SR "cyberpunk" if that makes them feel good (this may or may not be you). But then I need to ask, why does it require the establishment of placing fantasy elements into the game and going through the rigmarole of trying to "do it in as scientific a way as possible." when it *doesn't* even need to?

It's magic. Who cares? Do you? If the importance of saying (paraphrase) "FTL is equally as fantastic as... Dragons." (neither of which are cyberpunk conceits anyways) - but given the *actual* conceits of SR - Dragons have *more* reason to exist there than FTL. Because magic EXISTS in the setting.

FTL - on the other hand is a theoretical scientific possibility. That's why it exists in real life, and therefore exists in the conceits of cyberpunk settings (even though it's beyond even the cyberpunk genre). And that's the key here. Cyberpunk as a genre is merely a snapshot of a moment that is pre-transhumanist, with the added possibility that it might implode before widespread transhumanism is actually happens at all.

This is why I like this conversation - because it reveals to me that SR better informs Transhumanism more than the cyberpunk genre. Because as part of the conceits of SR - it's happened. People turned into orcs, elves, dorfs etc. There's no turning back. It's here.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882497We're getting into a Peanut Butter/Chocolate thing, but Shadowrun is a Cyberpunk center with a Fantasy coating.

Yep. But I'd ask - what purpose does it meaningfully serve, if indeed, it is cyberpunk. If we agree that CP2020 is also cyberpunk... then what needs do the insertion of fantasy and magic into the cyberpunk theme - if only because it's "fun to do". And like magic, that require no explanation for me.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882554hits it again with fantasy.

Therefore turning it into something else.

QuoteBTW, I think you need to do a little bit of research on the word technology and the kind of things allowed in classic Sci-Fi.

I'm pretty sure things that wold have been considered sci-fi at some point are best classified as sci-fantasy now. I'm pretty sure that no one is expecting to find lush jungles in Venus any more, or that Martians are going to invade us, or that spaceships travel through ether.

I have to ask, though, has science ever ever proposed mana as a physical law at any time in its history? have any classic sci-fi works ever seriously proposed such a thing?

QuoteYour judgments of genre are based on what shelf at B&N something is.

No, my judgments of genre, particularly Cyberpunk, are based on the canon of literature, what the man who appropriated the term to define part of that canon actually had to say, and what at least one of the luminaries of the genre, who's considered father of the genre, has to say.

Your judgments seem to be based on what amounts to "I wanna define it this way, so it is this way."

QuoteGenetic plague that scrambles people's brains and turns them into monsters that crave human flesh? Even though 100% viable in most Cyberpunk worlds, is it not Cyberpunk because someone now known as a Mirrorshades author never wrote it down?

I missed this, but it's a misrepresentation of my point regarding that. Way too literal.

If you can have a scientific basis for zombies, why not, as long as there is high tech, and the focus is the themes cyberpunk cares about. If the plague is caused by said high technology, even better.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882562Therefore turning it into something else.



I'm pretty sure things that wold have been considered sci-fi at some point are best classified as sci-fantasy now. I'm pretty sure that no one is expecting to find lush jungles in Venus any more, or that Martians are going to invade us, or that spaceships travel through ether.

I have to ask, though, has science ever ever proposed mana as a physical law at any time in its history? have any classic sci-fi works ever seriously proposed such a thing?

Well, since Mana in Shadowrun is life force ask half the world who believes in Qin or Prana, since in SR, that's what it is.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882564Well, since Mana in Shadowrun is life force ask half the world who believes in Qin or Prana, since in SR, that's what it is.

Sure, but cyberpunk is based on science and high tech, not superstitions about woo woo shit.

Also, please show me the many examples of people who believe in qin, chi, prana, or whatever where they are shooting quin/CHI/prana blasts, fireballs, lighting bolts, and other shit. Show me where t hey are even predicting this might happen in the physical world. Also, show me the predictions in science where someone in the future might be able to connect to the net using chi.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882566Sure, but cyberpunk is based on science and high tech, not superstitions about woo woo shit.

Also, please show me the many examples of people who believe in qin, chi, prana, or whatever where they are shooting quin/CHI/prana blasts, fireballs, lighting bolts, and other shit. Show me where t hey are even predicting this might happen in the physical world. Also, show me the predictions in science where someone in the future might be able to connect to the net using chi.

I think we're going off the rails here.

Lemme play Devils Advocate... even if this "woo woo shit" doesn't exist mechanically IN the CP2020 game, it certainly is believed by the cultures and NPC's in the world of the setting. So in terms of the science-as-magic-thing, I could see how you could insert this into the game if only as a perspective.

In fact I use those very kinds of superstitions in my CP2020 games to scare my players - especially with the ideas of rogue AI's and borgs and shit running around. They can certainly take the place of that "supernatural" element even if, the players and their PC's don't believe it's necessarily supernatural... it's the alien feeling of dealing with something other than mere human.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882566Sure, but cyberpunk is based on science and high tech, not superstitions about woo woo shit.

Also, please show me the many examples of people who believe in qin, chi, prana, or whatever where they are shooting quin/CHI/prana blasts, fireballs, lighting bolts, and other shit. Show me where t hey are even predicting this might happen in the physical world. Also, show me the predictions in science where someone in the future might be able to connect to the net using chi.

Well, that's a longer post, have to come back to that, but predictions in science also don't say that AI's can transfer people's minds into the Internet, combine to procreate and then beam themselves to Alpha Centauri either, but I guess Neuromancer isn't Cyberpunk?

Quote from: CRKrueger;882571Well, that's a longer post, have to come back to that, but predictions in science also don't say that AI's can transfer people's minds into the Internet, combine to procreate and then beam themselves to Alpha Centauri either, but I guess Neuromancer isn't Cyberpunk?

I think predictions in science are split on whether AIs can attain self awareness or consciousness. And the whole point of that is to question what is consciousness.

If you're referring to the Dixie Flatline, it was Sense/Net that saved the contents of his mind onto ROM. Far fetched at the moment? Sure, but impossible? We don't know yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading

Can you say the same about mana, magic and using those to shoot fireballs?

Again, it's all extrapolated from the technology that itself is extrapolated into the setting. If that's the best you can come up with as a justification for something like mana, your case is pretty weak.

Quote from: tenbones;882570I think we're going off the rails here.
Lemme play Devils Advocate... even if this "woo woo shit" doesn't exist mechanically IN the CP2020 game, it certainly is believed by the cultures and NPC's in the world of the setting. So in terms of the science-as-magic-thing, I could see how you could insert this into the game if only as a perspective.

I think it all depends on how it's handled. Usually, when I see this in any non-fantasy or non-horror work, it's presented as something very subjective, not something that objectively happened in the world. It may be like a spiritual experience or something that may or may not be true because it's experienced from a character's POV.

In RPG terms, though, once you stat something like "magic" or "mana" and make it mechanic, you're declaring it to be objectively true. That's what, for me, takes it into the realm of sci-fantasy.

QuoteIn fact I use those very kinds of superstitions in my CP2020 games to scare my players - especially with the ideas of rogue AI's and borgs and shit running around. They can certainly take the place of that "supernatural" element even if, the players and their PC's don't believe it's necessarily supernatural... it's the alien feeling of dealing with something other than mere human.

I think that Monalisa Overdrive did this very thing rather well (IMO), with the  Loas running lose in the 'Net and people from that religious background actually believing it was a manifestation. If there was ever a sense that it was real, that was quickly addressed once it was revealed to be aspects of an AI.

On a more personal level, I also draw a line between real world belief systems, or things that are very close to them, and what is presented in Shadowrun. I mean, if they had taken something like this  (http://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-american-culture/war-paint.htm)and incorporated it in a way that hewed closer to the real world (rather than fireball casting magic men), it would do a lot to lessen my objections. If then they found a way to present it so that the "magic effects" were subjective effects rather than objective ones, then even better*.  


*like the lightning symbol makes you more confident and the psychological boost let's you loosen up and act faster "+1 to speed" and to commit more force into your strikes "+1 to damage, rather than actually validate some spiritual or magical reality, which then takes it completely outside of the realm of possibility (at least when it comes to tolkienish magic).

And so ArrozConLeche you show us why CP2020 sucks, what a liar Gibson is, and how cyberpunk really is fantasy.

A looser is you, and Gibson.

When you are done getting curbstomped by Krueger maybee you can actually describe all the things that make Cyberpunk2020 great and different from other cyberpunk RPGs. As opposed to making it look ever more pathetic and pedantic. Because those things are there to be extolled.

Quote from: Omega;882610And so ArrozConLeche you show us why CP2020 sucks, what a liar Gibson is, and how cyberpunk really is fantasy.

A looser is you, and Gibson.

When you are done getting curbstomped by Krueger maybee you can actually describe all the things that make Cyberpunk2020 great and different from other cyberpunk RPGs. As opposed to making it look ever more pathetic and pedantic. Because those things are there to be extolled.

Now THIS is funny. hahahah!

Edit: I confess I did read it in my mind with a Cookie-monster voice.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882526except there is already a well established term to describe such genre mashups (sci-fantasy), so why not acknowledge the difference and call it what it actually is? Cyberpunk doesn't capture what SR is-- sci-fantasy or cyberfantasy does.

Clearly you have a much more rigid and clearly defined understanding of genera and sub genera than most of the rest of us do.  If that's written down it would help me and I think others to see it.

In in regards to you comment about outlander. And weather it was a western.  I was thinking about Fire fly.  If you look at the surface it's Science Fiction, it's in space right?  But if you look at the theams and core it's a western.  The core of science fiction is "take people.  Real people behaving in a real, human believable way, change something, meaning add a technology see what they do."  

The core of a western is about the loss  of a way of life as the frontier moves west and civilization displaces the gunslingers, and Indians.

If you were to recommend Fire fly you should know weather it was John Wayne and the ponies people liked, or the rugged individuals protecting the civilization that is displacing them.  

Also I am very confused about the strict disctinction between magic and technology.  They are both utterly make believe.  

If you wanted to draw a disctinction between rational and mystical thinking I could understand.  But their are a hell of a lot of mystics in Gibson.

Quote from: Omega;882610And so ArrozConLeche you show us why CP2020 sucks, what a liar Gibson is, and how cyberpunk really is fantasy.

A looser is you, and Gibson.

When you are done getting curbstomped by Krueger maybee you can actually describe all the things that make Cyberpunk2020 great and different from other cyberpunk RPGs. As opposed to making it look ever more pathetic and pedantic. Because those things are there to be extolled.

hahaha, you finally cracked. so much butthurt. too funny.

really, it doesn't hurt me if you insist on calling Shadowrun cyberpunk. I'm just of the opinion that you're wrong. apparently that hurts? sowee.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882524I already did when I said Shadowrun was not pure Cyberpunk.

Sorry, man, I've mixed you with someone else:).

QuoteShadowrun is under no possible definition "not Cyberpunk at all" as opposed to "Cyberpunk with Fantasy".

Saying Shadowrun more properly belongs under Tolkien then Gibson just shows extreme ignorance of Shadowrun, Tolkien and Gibson.

No, SR is clearly "cyberpunk with fantasy". It's just that cyberpunk is a sci-fi genre, in general, and when you mix any kind of SF with any kind of fantasy, you get...science fantasy, as a general term.
Whether it's cyberpunk fantasy, 70ies SF with wuxia and heroic fantasy (a.k.a. Star Wars) or technotrillers with wizards and werewolves, a.k.a. Poul Anderson's "Operation: Chaos"...it's all science fantasy;).

Quote from: Headless;882618Clearly you have a much more rigid and clearly defined understanding of genera and sub genera than most of the rest of us do.  If that's written down it would help me and I think others to see it.

Which genera and sub genera? I'm just saying there is a line between magic powered by "woo woo", magical mythical creatures, and technology. Don't you think there's a line?

QuoteIn in regards to you comment about outlander. And weather it was a western.  I was thinking about Fire fly.  If you look at the surface it's Science Fiction, it's in space right?  But if you look at the theams and core it's a western.  The core of science fiction is "take people.  Real people behaving in a real, human believable way, change something, meaning add a technology see what they do."  

To me, western as a genre occurs at a specific location and period of history. That's why most people qualify things like Fire Fly as space westerns and No Country For Old Men as contemporary/modern westerns. If I invited someone to come watch a western, and popped Fire Fly in, I'm pretty sure it would surprise them a little that I didn't specifically say it was a space western.

QuoteThe core of a western is about the loss  of a way of life as the frontier moves west and civilization displaces the gunslingers, and Indians.

If you were to recommend Fire fly you should know weather it was John Wayne and the ponies people liked, or the rugged individuals protecting the civilization that is displacing them.  

Or you know, you might also know that part of what makes a western movie a western movie is the visuals of that location, the time period, etc.

I just don't believe that because the same themes are addressed by a work of fiction, it automatically fits into a particular genre as such.

QuoteIf you wanted to draw a disctinction between rational and mystical thinking I could understand.  But their are a hell of a lot of mystics in Gibson.

Are the mystics showing magical powers that actually work at an objective level? I don't recall any, so help me out.

QuoteAlso I am very confused about the strict disctinction between magic and technology. They are both utterly make believe.

Well, one could be said to be make believe because it never has existed, and will never exist. The other could be said to be make believe because it doesn't exist YET. There is always the possibility until science invalidates the possibility for good.

At some point, it was probably somewhat of a possibility that there were martians in mars or venusians in venus. Now, I think that possibility has been completely invalidated. With cyberpunk, most of what has been invalidated are the anachronisms (like, you don't get your newspaper via fax, but on your phone).

As far as the mind/machine interface? I've already posted a link that says there is ongoing research on this that is actually on the way of making this a very real possibility. Other stuff like AI? Less so, but hasn't been completely invalidated yet. Mind uploading? Even less so, but hasn't been completely invalidated.

Magic fireballs? That hasn't been a possibility since the Renaissance, and I think I'm throwing you guys a huge bone even with that.If you want to treat both kinds of make believe as the same thing, though, be my guest.

Quote from: Headless;882618The core of a western is about the loss  of a way of life as the frontier moves west and civilization displaces the gunslingers, and Indians.

Where are the Indians in Firefly:D?

I know what you're saying. But there's also such a genre as Easterns, and the difference with Westerns is exactly that the setting is different;).

Quote from: AsenRG;882630Where are the Indians in Firefly:D?

The Reavers.  No, I'm not being facetious, but they are the 'savages' analog that a lot of people (when Westerns were popular) used to equate with Native Americans.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;882631The Reavers.  No, I'm not being facetious, but they are the 'savages' analog that a lot of people (when Westerns were popular) used to equate with Native Americans.

They're a Native Indian analogue, not Native Indians;). We could find other differences as well if we look at their role and compare it with the Native Indians' role.

But even doing that would equal missing the point of the post you replied to, so I'm not going to do it:D!

Quote from: tenbones;882616

Quote from: Omega;882610And so ArrozConLeche you show us why CP2020 sucks, what a liar Gibson is, and how cyberpunk really is fantasy.

A looser is you, and Gibson.

When you are done getting curbstomped by Krueger maybee you can actually describe all the things that make Cyberpunk2020 great and different from other cyberpunk RPGs. As opposed to making it look ever more pathetic and pedantic. Because those things are there to be extolled.

Now THIS is funny. hahahah!

Edit: I confess I did read it in my mind with a Cookie-monster voice.

Well, you know... Shadowrun fanboys are prone to...fantasy.:teehee:

Quote from: tenbones;882492To purists, and I'm not sure I'd be a purist (I've delved into low-level psionics for kicks and giggles in my CP2020 after a drunken Scanner's binge) the inclusion of aliens, aliens posing as gods, fantasy creatures explained via science - moves out of the cyberpunk genre and into other sub-genres of sci-fi.

By that definition after the first novel the Neuromancer trilogy isn't cyberpunk, which Can't be right. Nor Angel Station (though you might argue it's not, but I think you'd be wrong) or Richard Morgan's Kovacs trilogy which definitely includes aliens.

The presence of aliens doesn't negate it being cyberpunk, or if it does it takes out a lot of classics (we may have just lost Schismatrix too now I think about it).

Quote from: D-503;882655By that definition after the first novel the Neuromancer trilogy isn't cyberpunk, which Can't be right. Nor Angel Station (though you might argue it's not, but I think you'd be wrong) or Richard Morgan's Kovacs trilogy which definitely includes aliens.

The presence of aliens doesn't negate it being cyberpunk, or if it does it takes out a lot of classics (we may have just lost Schismatrix too now I think about it).

Schismatrix - Science Fiction. Not "cyberpunk" specifically.
Kovacs Trilogy - Transhumanist. Good series too! There's definitely overlap between CP and TH... this is definitely transhumanist.
Angel Station - I've already cited Williams as a seminal cyberpunk writer. But I'd say Angel Station is where the cyberpunk ends and the space-opera begins. And hey - THAT'S fine. That why I *said* I'm not a purist.

It's like talking about Dieselpunk and Steampunk and whatever-punk. It's a snapshot of time with it's own elements and conceits.

Is "Difference Engine" steampunk? to a lot of people it's *started* the Steampunk fad. Yet it wasn't intended to - rather it was alt-cyberpunk.

So that's my story. I'm sticking to it. :)

Edit: keep in mind, I'm just using labels as a reference point. I recognize times change. The Eagles... are they country? Are they rock? Well every True Scotsman knows they're rock. Then you listen to this shit that they call "country" today - and yeah.. it's like watered down rock trying to sound like the Eagles... so go figure.

I'd call Kovacs cyberpunk rather than transhuman, the first is basically a Neuromancer rerun. I wouldn't fight over the point though.

Differnce Engine is sui generis. Steampunk just apes some cool trappings while missing the entire point of all of it.

I think aliens in cyberpunk is fine provided they're alien aliens. A distant intelligence, a presence in the Oort cloud, fine. Your mate down the pub is one, might be fine but I think then I'd agree we've left the cyberpunk station.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882627Which genera and sub genera? I'm just saying there is a line between magic powered by "woo woo", magical mythical creatures, and technology. Don't you think there's a line?

Anyone remember the cartoon where a modern college science student gets sent back in time and turned into a dragon?  What was that called?  Any way this kid pisses off his dragon mentor by coming up with scientific expiration date for why magical things work.  Like saying fire rock is phosphorus.  "Shut up and eat your phosphorus". Man good times. Cyber punk? Who knows.  And no I don't see much difference between "woo woo" magic and tycacions or angling the deflector shield.  Sufficiently plot convient technology is indistinguishable from magic and all that

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882627To me, western as a genre occurs at a specific location and period of history. That's why most people qualify things like Fire Fly as space westerns and No Country For Old Men as contemporary/modern westerns.

I think No Country is more an inversion of a western.  But that is another thread.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882627Or you know, you might also know that part of what makes a western movie a western movie is the visuals of that location, the time period, etc.

I just don't believe that because the same themes are addressed by a work of fiction, it automatically fits into a particular genre as such.

If it's the visuals and period costumes.  Fire fly has them.  And to the second point.  I would just disagree.  To me, the the narrative meaning and purpose of elfs is more important than any auto felationatory explanation of where the elfs come from the author indulges in.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882627Are the mystics showing magical powers that actually work at an objective level? I don't recall any, so help me out.

Well no.  When they start doing that on a regular basis than they are scientists.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882627Well, one could be said to be make believe because it never has existed, and will never exist. The other could be said to be make believe because it doesn't exist YET. There is always the possibility until science invalidates the possibility for good.

At some point, it was probably somewhat of a possibility that there were martians in mars or venusians in venus. Now, I think that possibility has been completely invalidated. With cyberpunk, most of what has been invalidated are the anachronisms (like, you don't get your newspaper via fax, but on your phone).

As far as the mind/machine interface? I've already posted a link that says there is ongoing research on this that is actually on the way of making this a very real possibility. Other stuff like AI? Less so, but hasn't been completely invalidated yet. Mind uploading? Even less so, but hasn't been completely invalidated.

Magic fireballs? That hasn't been a possibility since the Renaissance, and I think I'm throwing you guys a huge bone even with that.If you want to treat both kinds of make believe as the same thing, though, be my guest.

This seems a fluid and arbitrary disctinction.  If I find a way to provably summon an extra plainar being, a daemon, than shadow run becomes cyber punk.  And AI and mind machine implants is proved impossible Neuromance becomes cyber fantasy?  

I find that unsatisfactory.

Quote from: tenbones;882616Now THIS is funny. hahahah!

Edit: I confess I did read it in my mind with a Cookie-monster voice.

Thanks.

But really. Tell me whats so great about the RPG rather than telling me how some other RPG sucks because having elves in it magically invalidates it.

For example. How does 2020's netrunning compare to Shadowruns? If the CCG was any indicator then it must have been more nuanced than Shadowruns?

Or how well does 2020 allow you to adventure outside the "mercenary crook" style of Shadowrun? Seems like it can handle playing a musician, a businessman, etc? Which are things Shadowrun would be harder pressed to handle.

and so on.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882619hahaha, you finally cracked. so much butthurt. too funny.

really, it doesn't hurt me if you insist on calling Shadowrun cyberpunk. I'm just of the opinion that you're wrong. apparently that hurts? sowee.

So in other words you fail.

You cant even describe in a positive way the game you are supposedly defending. You have to piss on someone elses game to make yours look good.

Keep struggling.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882619hahaha, you finally cracked. so much butthurt. too funny.

really, it doesn't hurt me if you insist on calling Shadowrun cyberpunk. I'm just of the opinion that you're wrong. apparently that hurts? sowee.

I have seen entirely too much of this behavior on this website. I really expect better of people than this.
Regardless, I hope you are aware that when you pull this 'I-declare-myself-the-winner,-and-that-my-opposition-is-"butthurt"' whinery, you pretty much insta-lose in the eyes of everyone else (you know it's true, think back to the last time someone else pulled it here. Did you respect it then?). Something to think on.

Cheers.

Quote from: Omega;882679Thanks.

But really. Tell me whats so great about the RPG rather than telling me how some other RPG sucks because having elves in it magically invalidates it.

I've said it's sci fantasy and that to the extent it includes fantasy magic elements , it undermines the cyberpunk elements. If your interpretation of that is that SR sucks rather than, you know, saying that SR is in its own genre, then that's your problem..

I've presented plenty of reasons as to why I believe that  and backed it with evidence. What have you done, besides take offense and get all huffy?

Oh, that's right. Nada. ;)

By the way, I'm not even really trying to defend CP2020. I'm just questioning some of the claims. If the claims about SR had been about its cyberpunk parts in isolation from the magic elements, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because I don't care. I just know that magic cannot make something more cyberpunk because magic is not a conceit of the genre.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;882691I have seen entirely too much of this behavior on this website. I really expect better of people than this.
Regardless, I hope you are aware that when you pull this 'I-declare-myself-the-winner,-and-that-my-opposition-is-"butthurt"' whinery, you pretty much insta-lose in the eyes of everyone else (you know it's true, think back to the last time someone else pulled it here. Did you respect it then?). Something to think on.

Cheers.

 Is whining like a petulant child because even your preferred game's own wiki SITE bills it as science  fantasy the kind of convincing argument you're looking for?

I can't speak for others, but I know one reason I don't think SR and CP are all that different is because CP has sufficiently advanced tech that it is no different than magic, whereas SR just makes some of the tech magic.  The whole soul sucked into the net story in the main rulebook of CP is PFM  (Pure Fucking Magic).  Right off the bat, CP tells a supernatural story, with at best vague technological trappings to explain it.

Personally I find the whole cyberpsychosis thing no more believable than possession by spirits (it's also jarring since it's so blatantly a game balance mechanic) and frankly it would make more sense if it was possession by tech spirits.  Giving an amputee a new limb doesn't make them go crazy or become less well, it tends to dramatically uplift them.  That it was worked into the CP world reasonably well nonetheless is a testament to the generally enjoyable world-building in CP.

I also find it funny that the guy who gave us Neuromancer and Loas is even slightly bothered by Shadowrun when he himself saw the parallels between tech and magic and went so far as to use mystical terms for both his book titles and entities within his books.  I've said he's one of my favorite writers, but I think he missed his own point with his Shadowrun comments.

So I think folks can see how this hard line of "no magic in my cyberpunk" is a pointless distinction to at least me, and it seems a number of others as well.  Clarke's Third Law basically states that at a certain point, you are talking about magic, no matter that you call it tech.  So fine, if some want cyberpunk without sufficiently advanced tech, they can have it, but they are cutting out most of the fiction written about it because it's already magic, by virtue (or flaw if you prefer) of being sufficiently advanced as to be no different.

Sure, as long as you ignore that sci-fi devices are often extrapolated from real science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_field_(fiction)

Quote from: Headless;882667Sufficiently plot convient technology is indistinguishable from magic and all that

The end result might look the same, bu the base assumptions are like night and day, aren't they? Sci-fi devices are often extrapolated from actual science, or tech that actually exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_field_(fiction)

Can you say the same about the assumptions behind magic?

QuoteI think No Country is more an inversion of a western.  But that is another thread.

If it's the visuals and period costumes.  Fire fly has them.  And to the second point.  I would just disagree.  

We could pick any other example than NCFOM, that deviates from the time perio, and place, and the rest of the assumptions of the genre. The point is that most people qualify them with something more than 'western'.  Because it's more than just the visuals and period costumes, it's the place, the landscape, the period itself that are important. These carry meaning.

That's why if you add spaceships and shit to a western, it's no longer a western, but a space western. Those other things were never part of the genre.

QuoteTo me, the the narrative meaning and purpose of elfs is more important than any auto felationatory explanation of where the elfs come from the author indulges in.

That doesn't make those things part of the genre of cyberpunk. And if they're magical in nature, they're even more dissonant to the whole idea of cyberpunk.

QuoteWell no.  When they start doing that on a regular basis than they are scientists.

Either you're missing what I meant , or you arguing that Gandalf is a scientist.

QuoteThis seems a fluid and arbitrary disctinction.  If I find a way to provably summon an extra plainar being, a daemon, than shadow run becomes cyber punk.  And AI and mind machine implants is proved impossible Neuromance becomes cyber fantasy?  

No. That would mean that cyberpunk becomes sci-fantasy, and Shadowrun would become sci-fi. But the latter is not going to happen in a million years, so we don't have to worry about that.

QuoteI find that unsatisfactory.

That's not the genre's fault. If I were you, I would fault your assumptions on what constitutes elaborating on science and what's an outright fairy tale.

Quote from: Brander;882756I can't speak for others, but I know one reason I don't think SR and CP are all that different is because CP has sufficiently advanced tech that it is no different than magic, whereas SR just makes some of the tech magic.  The whole soul sucked into the net story in the main rulebook of CP is PFM  (Pure Fucking Magic).  Right off the bat, CP tells a supernatural story, with at best vague technological trappings to explain it.

Personally I find the whole cyberpsychosis thing no more believable than possession by spirits (it's also jarring since it's so blatantly a game balance mechanic) and frankly it would make more sense if it was possession by tech spirits.  Giving an amputee a new limb doesn't make them go crazy or become less well, it tends to dramatically uplift them.  That it was worked into the CP world reasonably well nonetheless is a testament to the generally enjoyable world-building in CP.

I also find it funny that the guy who gave us Neuromancer and Loas is even slightly bothered by Shadowrun when he himself saw the parallels between tech and magic and went so far as to use mystical terms for both his book titles and entities within his books.  I've said he's one of my favorite writers, but I think he missed his own point with his Shadowrun comments.

So I think folks can see how this hard line of "no magic in my cyberpunk" is a pointless distinction to at least me, and it seems a number of others as well.  Clarke's Third Law basically states that at a certain point, you are talking about magic, no matter that you call it tech.  So fine, if some want cyberpunk without sufficiently advanced tech, they can have it, but they are cutting out most of the fiction written about it because it's already magic, by virtue (or flaw if you prefer) of being sufficiently advanced as to be no different.

Also once something becomes objectively true, with repeatably proven methods, 100% reproducible, and used to create goods and provide services, it becomes by the very definition of the word - scientific technology.

The world of Neuromancer is not our world.  The creation and merging/procreation of the Wintermute and Neuromancer AIs, and their capability to beam themselves to Alpha Centauri isn't "magic"?  Is it reproducible, can anyone even really describe what actually happened?  It's a transcendent, revelatory event as magical or mystical as the resurrection and ascension of Christ.  You find the same type of Transcendent Event in Idoru that is as scientifically explainable as the end of 2001's Star-Child.

I can take gold and inject it into a donut-shaped mold, that does not make it a donut, not even if I paint it to look like one.

Gibson has always had magical and mystical elements in his stories, and those elements in his stories function more like *magic* than ANY magic in Shadowrun, which is scientifically defined, reproducible and quantifiable.  Hell, I've heard people say Shadowrun isn't fantasy at all because of this fact.  

Vampires don't turn into mist, wolves, or bats.  They're infected with a disease, a virus, that like metahumans, has certain non-coding elements of their DNA activate and turn into coding elements when a type of energy rises to a certain level.  I don't see Darwin's Radio billed as a fantasy novel, it's got damn near the same premise.

Magic wrapped in mirrorshades doesn't mean it's not fantastical, and a mutant with a magic robe doesn't make him Gandalf.

Quote from: Brander;882756So I think folks can see how this hard line of "no magic in my cyberpunk" is a pointless distinction to at least me, and it seems a number of others as well.  Clarke's Third Law basically states that at a certain point, you are talking about magic, no matter that you call it tech.  

I'm not going to adress the rest of the post, because I'd be retreading arguments that've already occurred.

I'll just say that this interpretation of clarke seems wrong:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

This says more about the person observing the technology than the technology itself. That's the whole point of a conneticutt yankee, no? The people of the past have not even the slightest idea of the science behind some technology, so yeah, it looks like magic, and they might actually believe that it is being powered by some mystical force even if it isn't. But that's a matter of perspective.  

You can't say that the characters in cyberpunk, or even the readership of cyberpunk, can't distinguish the tech from magic, because pretty much everything is an extrapolation of technology and science of our world. As such, you can assume that the tech runs on scientific principles/hypothees or extrapolated from such. Neither the characters, nor the readership have this sense that some mystical force is powering their tech. It is assumed that there is some scientific basis for it.

Oh wait, that sounds like the real world! No one assumes that their toaster is running on mana or that a little dragon is browning their bread. No, they know it's electricity, even as they don't really understand the physics of electricity.

Another point: some of the technology that cyberpunk predicted has started to become true in many ways, just like the advent of space exploration started to make other sci-fi extrapolations true. Some things will hit and some will miss. On the other hand, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anything like the magic in SR or Tolkien to ever enter this universe or work like it. That's one of the things that makes extrapolating from technology different from assuming some mystical force at work.

If you guys want to insist that these things are indistinguishable, *shrug*. It's your prerogative to ignore the big differences in favor of your rhetorical points.

Is this what you're referring to as "woo woo shit (http://www.qigonginstitute.org/category/22/the-scientific-basis-of-qigong-and-energy-medicine)"?

One small piece..."Research by the Harvard Medical School and others has demonstrated that the practice of Qigong affects gene expression, and immune, nervous system, and cellular function."

Life energy affecting genetic expression, hmm, what does that sound like, I remember someone saying something about that... :hmm:

Not sure why Chinese beliefs are "woo woo" or what that epithet is trying to convey, BTW.

That seems pretty far away from casting magic fireballs. Do you ever anticipate a quigong practicioner doing that?

As to quigong itself, I'd direct you to the skeptics dictionary, or at least look outside of a site dedicated to quigong itself. I mean, getting proof of quigong from a quigong website is a little like getting proof that vaccines cause autism from an anti-vaccine site.

Not having read enough on the subject, I'd say that it looks a bit like quackery:

http://skepdic.com/chikung.html

But you know what, a quick google search on epigenetics and quigong points to a study of taichi. And, surprise! It turns out that exercise does the same thing? Is this because of some mystical energy like "chi" or is it just a benefit of exercise? Last time I looked, weightlifting science doesn't mention chi anywhere.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics_of_physical_exercise#DNA_Methylation

I define 'woo woo' shit as stuff that relies on mystical explanations in the face of science.

Even if, let's say, chi became a scientific fact, that's a long long way from mana and magic returning to earth, and people being able to harness these energies via words, symbols, etc.

This one (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0002576) was funded by the NIH and the CDC, not Mr. Woo Woo.

It shows that processes like Yoga (manipulation of Prana) and various Chinese Qigong (manipulation of Qi) not weightlifting or skiing, can literally turn genes on and off.

Scientific fact.  Manipulation of body energy though practiced exertion of will, affects DNA.

Hmm, so now that we know that SCIENTIFICALLY, let's extrapolate what would happen with higher levels of that energy?  

• Might some of the genes we have no clue what they do or are there for possibly have a purpose we haven't found yet?  
• Might we be able to channel or focus this energy in other ways?  
• Shaolin monks and other martial artists, as well as Yogis and practitioners of other cultures (the Woo Woo people) who have a written history going back to when white people were in caves claim the focusing of this energy is the reason they can do things like resist blades thrust through their bodies or other things most of us can't do.  Could it be something other than half the world sharing the same delusion?

Yeah, that's a whole lot less magical than AIs transcending to Space Gods...for sure.

DOes the study in the link mention prana, mana, or chi anywhere? anywhere? Hello?

I didn't think so. The gist seems to be:

QuoteThe RR is characterized by decreased oxygen consumption, increased exhaled nitric oxide, and reduced psychological distress. It is believed to be the counterpart of the stress response that exhibits a distinct pattern of physiology and transcriptional profile. We hypothesized that RR elicitation results in characteristic gene expression changes that can be used to measure physiological responses elicited by the RR in an unbiased fashion.

a relaxation response, you know, which is as far from mystical as you can get.

You let me know when they've measured the prana, mana and chi levels of these practitioners, and actually posited a hypothesis of how these mystical forces are changing genes.

Hey, maybe they'll eventually change their DNA enough to pop out elves and fairies by the dozen. Let's make sure they meditate on Tolkien.

QuoteYeah, that's a whole lot less magical than AIs transcending to Space Gods...for sure

nice strawman. :)

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882785DOes the study in the link mention prana, mana, or chi anywhere? anywhere? Hello?

I didn't think so. The gist seems to be:



a relaxation response, you know, which is as far from mystical as you can get.

You let me know when they've measured the prana, mana and chi levels of these practitioners, and actually posited a hypothesis of how these mystical forces are changing genes.

Hey, maybe they'll eventually change their DNA enough to pop out elves and fairies by the dozen.



nice strawman. :)

Oh, I thought you were aware that Yoga means Prana, and that Tai-Chi or other Qigong means Qi and that those are both forms of energy.

I also thought you read the ending of Neuromancer.

I also thought, being someone who thinks he knows what Science is that the first step is proving that something does in fact exist.  At that point, we move on to the how.  We proved, for example, that the brain exists a long time ago, we're still working on the exact how.  Mechanisms take a little longer.

Although I'm starting to feel like I'm discussing house architecture with someone who thinks a house is a Victorian because it has floral wallpaper.

Oh, now you're saying that chi, prana and mana aren't mystical energies? Are they just a form of exercise and relaxation, or are they mystical energies? Please clarify because it looks a lot like moving the goalposts.

We don't know a lot about how the brain works, but I can assure you science is not looking into mana or chi anytime soon.  

QuoteAlthough I'm starting to feel like I'm discussing house architecture with someone who thinks a house is a Victorian because it has floral wallpaper.

So, is your opinion, as someone who knows so much more about physics, physiology, and all that stuff that the brain runs on mystical energies? What energies would those be? But wait, you can't decide whether chi/prana are an exercise type or a type of woo woo energy running through our bodies.

Please take pity on your intellectual inferior and enlighten me on the subject.  And if you take a firmer stand on saying that prana and chi are some sort of energy, please show me where in the scientific studies the measurement of such are being mentioned.

Ok, I did just explain this a post ago, but Science 101.

Half the world claims two things
1. These practices have medical benefits.
2. These practices do this through manipulation of a form of energy.

Step 1. Evaluate the claims that the practices have medical benefits.
Result - Not only proven, but shows unexpected results, like the activation and deactivation of genes.

Step 2. Evaluate the claims that these practices achieve their effect through some form of energy manipulation.  Determine the mechanism.  Hypothesis and studies to follow.
BTW, that will include the "energy measuring" part.

By comparison, no one has ever come even remotely close to anything resembling AI, and certainly not a AI-merged ascension.  

Life Energy affecting Genes is further along on the "proven for extrapolation" spectrum then AI is.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;882691I have seen entirely too much of this behavior on this website. I really expect better of people than this.
Regardless, I hope you are aware that when you pull this 'I-declare-myself-the-winner,-and-that-my-opposition-is-"butthurt"' whinery, you pretty much insta-lose in the eyes of everyone else (you know it's true, think back to the last time someone else pulled it here. Did you respect it then?). Something to think on.

Cheers.

Depends on whether the opposition did indeed behave like a whiner, might be "yes", or "the exact opposite":).
That's a general comment, not a comment on the specific interaction. As it happens, I can't even read half the replies in it;).

Pardon an intrusion...

Guys, before you'll strangle each other, please remember that there's no precise, universally accepted definition of ruah/mana/prana/chi/ki/qi/the Force. It varies from a system (or more precisely "model of reality") to a system, from a school to school, from a master to master. Sometimes practitioners agree it's one and the same, someone they don't and usually there's more than just a handful of differences. As such, you're both right and wrong at same time - science confirms some elements of certain systems, disproves other ones.

Effectively, you're both arguing about concepts you probably don't understand in precisely same way and you both aren't free of oversimplification and generalizations.

Neither of you can "win" this discussion, or prove his point in such a way it'll be acceptable by the other, I'm afraid.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882792Ok, I did just explain this a post ago, but Science 101.

Half the world claims two things
1. These practices have medical benefits.
2. These practices do this through manipulation of a form of energy.

Step 1. Evaluate the claims that the practices have medical benefits.
Result - Not only proven, but shows unexpected results, like the activation and deactivation of genes.

And the study you linked attributes that to a relaxation response, not an energy called chi/prana/whatever, no?

QuoteStep 2. Evaluate the claims that these practices achieve their effect through some form of energy manipulation.  Determine the mechanism.  Hypothesis and studies to follow.
BTW, that will include the "energy measuring" part.

Which again, the study you linked apparently does, and attributes all that to a relaxation response, not an energy called chi/prana/whatever, no?

When do you anticipate t hey will have a study to try and measure chi/prana/whatever?

QuoteBy comparison, no one has ever come even remotely close to anything resembling AI, and certainly not a AI-merged ascension.  

Self aware AI's? No. AI does exist, though, no? Expert systems, smart apps, etc. We even recently got a computer to beat a strong Go player.

QuoteLife Energy affecting Genes is further along on the "proven for extrapolation" spectrum then AI is.

Ha, no. If you said relaxation response, you might have a point, but you are saying Life Energy, which is just flat out wrong given what you linked.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;882796Pardon an intrusion...

Guys, before you'll strangle each other, please remember that there's no precise, universally accepted definition of ruah/mana/prana/chi/ki/qi/the Force. It varies from a system (or more precisely "model of reality") to a system, from a school to school, from a master to master. Sometimes practitioners agree it's one and the same, someone they don't and usually there's more than just a handful of differences. As such, you're both right and wrong at same time - science confirms some elements of certain systems, disproves other ones.

Effectively, you're both arguing about concepts you probably don't understand in precisely same way and you both aren't free of oversimplification and generalizations.

Neither of you can "win" this discussion, or prove his point in such a way it'll be acceptable by the other, I'm afraid.

I"m willing to accept this, sure. But you also have to accept that there is still a slight, though apparently decreasing, possibility that one day strong AI might beat a turing test before you ever see someone shooting fireballs or hadokens through the air because "Life Energy duuude!"

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882799I"m willing to accept this, sure. But you also have to accept that there is still a slight, though apparently decreasing, possibility that one day strong AI might beat a turing test before you ever see someone shooting fireballs or hadokens through the air because "Life Energy duuude!"

Extrapolate from Scientific principles doesn't mean "extrapolate from scientific principles I choose personally and subjectively as more likely to happen."

I think I have about the same chance to see someone channel energy to set someone on fire as I do to witness two AIs transcend and travel to Alpha Centauri or for another AI to inhabit a nanotech body, or for actual FTL to exist.

As far as seeing a Physical Adept investing Essence into Body so that they can actually resist blades cutting their flesh - I've already seen that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882801Extrapolate from Scientific principles doesn't mean "extrapolate from scientific principles I choose personally and subjectively as more likely to happen."

I think I have about the same chance to see someone channel energy to set someone on fire as I do to witness two AIs transcend and travel to Alpha Centauri or for another AI to inhabit a nanotech body, or for actual FTL to exist.

When better scientific minds than mine, and I wager yours, do see a possibility, however remote, I'm not beyond giving it a benefit of the doubt. When those scientific minds give any credence to chi/prana as energies that might let us shoot fireballs and hadokens through our hands, I'll give that the benefit of the doubt.

QuoteAs far as seeing a Physical Adept investing Essence into Body so that they can actually resist blades cutting their flesh - I've already seen that.

Yeah, I saw that on TV when David Carradine was doing Kung Fu. Have yet to see any single documented case of that actually happening outside movies and legends that did not involve quackery.

Anyway, nice to know you not only believe in 'woo' but also bullshido. :)


http://scienceblogs.com/neurotopia/2007/10/01/martial-idiocy/

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882799I"m willing to accept this, sure. But you also have to accept that there is still a slight, though apparently decreasing, possibility that one day strong AI might beat a turing test before you ever see someone shooting fireballs or hadokens through the air because "Life Energy duuude!"

I'm a GM. I reject no idea or a possibility. :)

btw...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I)

;)

Quote from: JesterRaiin;882809I'm a GM. I reject no idea or a possibility. :)

btw...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I)

;)

I kinda feel bad for the dude...something happy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W73Y9oYXQrE

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882810I kinda feel bad for the dude...something happy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W73Y9oYXQrE

..

Dem some friggin' brütal moves. :eek:

Once we get to the point of Chimpanzees flinging shit at the walls, it's probably time to call it a waste of time.  I'll head out before we get to MMA fighters and Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's. ;)

It became a waste of time as soon as someone tried to prove that 'woo' and bullshido are actually real life phenomena.

I'll be waiting for that scientific paper measuring mana and how much heat a hadoken generates. :rotfl:

Wow, so you're saying Yoga and Qigong can turn Genes on and off through absolutely no mechanism whatsoever?

You DO believe in magic!

Where's that AI now?  Oh yeah, I have to spin up my FTL drive to get there because it went to Alpha Centauri to live with the alien AIs.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882823Wow, so you're saying Yoga and Qigong can turn Genes on and off through absolutely no mechanism whatsoever?

Oh, so you're not done yet!

You do know that the brain,nervous and system control the body, right? No chi, prana, or abracadabra needed.

QuoteYou DO believe in magic!

I'm not the one defending 'woo', lol.

QuoteWhere's that AI now?  Oh yeah, I have to spin up my FTL drive to get there because it went to Alpha Centauri to live with the alien AIs.

Haha, nice mangling of neuromancer. Woo! Hadoken!

Quote from: JesterRaiin;882796Pardon an intrusion...

Guys, before you'll strangle each other, please remember that there's no precise, universally accepted definition of ruah/mana/prana/chi/ki/qi/the Force. It varies from a system (or more precisely "model of reality") to a system, from a school to school, from a master to master. Sometimes practitioners agree it's one and the same, someone they don't and usually there's more than just a handful of differences. As such, you're both right and wrong at same time - science confirms some elements of certain systems, disproves other ones.

Effectively, you're both arguing about concepts you probably don't understand in precisely same way and you both aren't free of oversimplification and generalizations.

Neither of you can "win" this discussion, or prove his point in such a way it'll be acceptable by the other, I'm afraid.

Quoting it because it was ignored.
Please, guys, go and open a thread if you wish, but that's simply irrelevant here. We know what is being accepted as scientifically possible, some of us know what is possible with autohypnosis, and creating frigging fireballs isn't part of it!

Quote from: AsenRG;882831Quoting it because it was ignored.
Please, guys, go and open a thread if you wish, but that's simply irrelevant here. We know what is being accepted as scientifically possible, some of us know what is possible with autohypnosis, and creating frigging fireballs isn't part of it!

Well, it is relevant if your intention is to use such a discussion as a springboard for arguing why magic and science are really the same thing, which is what the SR uber-fanatics want to say.  

So you just need to sit back and accept that just like space exploration became a reality, just like the internet became a reality, etc,  elves and magic fireballs may one day become a reality, because tolkienish fantasy and sci-fi have always had comparable predictive power. You just wait... :D

Quote from: AsenRG;882831We know what is being accepted as scientifically possible, some of us know what is possible with autohypnosis, and creating frigging fireballs isn't part of it!

Define Fireball.

It seems like whenever something floats within a certain zone of exterior trappings, all the scientifically impossible things you accept in the genre of science are a difference merely of degree.

When the trappings differ, it "magically" becomes a difference of kind. :D

What did I tell youse. No wonder some people think Shadowrun isn't sci-fantasy. :teehee:

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/81gbK3FszllZu/200_s.gif)

And so the beatdown of poor little ArrozConLeche continues.

^ Proving again how Shadowrun fanbois are so prone to Fantasy. ;)

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882833.... arguing why magic and science are really the same thing, which is what the SR uber-fanatics want to say.  

I don't know what the other guy is saying. I am saying in a story since both are just made up by the author magic and science are the same thing.  A plot device to get to tell the story he/she wants to tell.

When dealing with magic there is a line by Chief Dan George, "sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesn't" (little big man) for me that's what makes it magic.  Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.   If it works all the time it's technology.  If you understand how it works, you are a scientist.  

If your protagonist is using and discovering laws of an energy field or probability distorting matrix, and causing desired effects in a predictable way, than he (or she) is a scientist.  No mater how out there or magical the field is.  

If they are conducting rituals they don't understand, which sometimes produce the desired affect but they don't know how or why than they are a wizard.  The techno guys from 40k are wizards, not scientists.  

The difference between a wizard and a scientist is in the practicer not in the world.  Especially in a work of fiction.  

I guess I started by saying they were the same and went on to explain the differences.  Hopefully I have done so in a way you can understand.  Even if you don't agree.

Second.  It was suggest to me that genera and sub genera may be an out moded way of categorizing and thinking about things.  We don't have filing cabinets any more.  Putting things in one and only one drawer isn't how we do things.  Now we tag things, and we tag things with a bunch of tags.  I would tag, Fire fly with #western, space western, sci fi, blah blah blah.

Shadow run would get tagged with, cyber punk, sci fi, heist, urban fantasy, science fantasy, corporate dragon, distopian future, mutants, corporate warfare, blah blah.  

Can I keep the cyber punk tag?  Or does that gave to go because of the elfs?  

Would a house stop being Victorian if it had a modern kitchen and LED lights?

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882848^ Proving again how Shadowrun fanbois are so prone to Fantasy. ;)

When you're the only one who thinks they are 'right', it may be time to reevaluate why you're alone.

Oh, you believe in 'woo' too? cool, I found something you guys might be interested in:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COYd4DSUAAATAhd.jpg)

Fully furnished, so you three can move under. :D

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882855Oh, you believe in 'woo' too? cool, I found something you guys might be interested in:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COYd4DSUAAATAhd.jpg)

Fully furnished, so you three can move under. :D

I play Fantasy games, love them actually.  S'why I love Cyberpunk 2020.

For example, it's been proven that cloning body parts is easier and more likely the future of medicine than 'cyberwear'.  Simply because the human body tends to reject invasive mechanical objects.  So the fact that somehow cybernetics are 'the future' and will be the way that medicine deals with amputations is more fantastical, than having magic suddenly become 'real'.

So you believe in as you put it 'Woo woo' too.

QuoteSo the fact that somehow cybernetics are 'the future' and will be the way that medcine deals with amputations is more fantastical, than having magic suddenly become 'real'.

Say whut? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :D

Eye camera:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3413757/Eye-spy-Filmmaker-replaces-glass-eyeball-camera-three-minutes-starts-overheat.html

Cochlear Implant
http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/pages/coch.aspx

Where can a brother get a working heal spell done?

Yes, kids, keep curb stomping me. These guys. :rotfl:

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882862Say whut? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :D

Eye camera:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3413757/Eye-spy-Filmmaker-replaces-glass-eyeball-camera-three-minutes-starts-overheat.html

Cochlear Implant
http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/pages/coch.aspx

Where can someone get a working heal spell done?

Yes, kids, keep curb stomping me. These guys. :rotfl:

And?  The first article is how the device OVERHEATS.  Good job shooting down your own point there, chief.

Here:

http://www.cloneorgans.com/pros-and-cons-of-cloning/20/ (http://http://www.cloneorgans.com/pros-and-cons-of-cloning/20/)

Quote from: the article• Easy replacement of internal organs and tissues for patients in need of transplants instead of waiting for suitable organ donors, alive or dead. Since the transplanted organ contains most of the recipient's genes, there is a lesser chance for rejection as well.

Just because we've had cybernetic components (like contact lenses) doesn't mean it's 'easier'.  Just because we're considering the field for medical purposes doesn't mean it's easier.  Just means we (the human race) is considering it.

Therapeutic cloning is superiour than cybernetics at the moment, in CP2020 (which apparently is now, although takes place 4 YEARS from now) it's still utter woo woo fantasy.

But hey, keep tilting at those windmills.  Maybe I can join you some time.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;882864And?  The first article is how the device OVERHEATS.  Good job shooting down your own point there, chief.

Irrelevant. The first attempts at flying failed as well. You're grasping at straws now, my man. lol.

Quote*more irrelevant flailing*

I'll have you know that Wetware happens in the same setting as Software. The latter is cyberpunk, so biopunk is a subgenre of it.

Oh, and pro tip: cloning is not done with the help of chi, mana, or hobbits. :D

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882869Irrelevant. The first attempts at flying failed as well. You're grasping at straws now, my man. lol.



I'll have you know that Wetware happens in the same setting as Software. The latter is cyberpunk, so biopunk is a subgenre of it.

Oh, and pro tip: cloning is not done with the help of chi, mana, or hobbits. :D

But Cybernetics in CP2020 is...

Wait, you're trolling.  You're not actually arguing in good faith, are you?  Dammit!  You got me.  Well, there's egg on my face.  I can't believe I fell for it.  I thought I was smarter than that.  Sorry guys, I didn't see it coming.

I'll stop now, I'm sorry for feeding him.

I'm only trolling if you happen to be a rabid Shadowrunner who believes in 'woo woo' shit and doesn't like facts. Facts such as...SHADOWRUN IS SCI-FANTASY. ;)

I haven't been talking about CP2020 for like 20 pages now? lol But you assert that CP2020 Cybernetics use chi, mana and hobbits to work? Citation please? haha

Moving on, I'm going to link that video about what Mr. Pondsmith wanted people to think about when he created CP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYxt7cwDk4E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYxt7cwDk4E)

Personally, I tried to get feel in my game.  Did I succeed?  I honestly don't know.  But it's what I wanted to get across to my players.

Aaaand....

(http://www-scf.usc.edu/~shenchik/itp104/rookmate.png)

One rabid SR fanboi down...look at how well behaved he is now. :teehee:

Anyone else have any playstyle they preferred?

Most of my games were street level conspiracies, except for one which lasted the longest which was an episodic (as in each adventure was self-contained) Doc Wagon team (Gave them the AV and everything, and although they freelanced a bit, they were the closest things to 'heroes' the setting ever allowed.)

So what did the rest of you guys focus on?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;882884Anyone else have any playstyle they preferred?
...

So what did the rest of you guys focus on?

Mostly cyber-mercenary kind of things, or Heat-like stuff.  I ran some gang-ish stuff, and played in some gang-ish stuff, but most of it was very Solo oriented.  I did play in one game where the GM attempted to make cyberware a very personal horror kind of thing, but since he didn't let us players know about it beforehand, it kind of failed.

I did play in some games where other GMs added supernatural elements to their games, so even pre-Shadowrun, I was seeing a desire for overt supernatural elements.  Post-Shadowrun,  some used the Night's Edge stuff, and one just plain ran Vampire, but in the Cyberpunk world.

QuoteOriginally Posted by ArrozConLeche
^ Proving again how Shadowrun fanbois are so prone to Fantasy.

Except Im not.

Keep trolling though. The patheticness is at least illuminating.

So on the last page before the flame war (actually maybe in the middle of the flame war) I have some points to make and questions to ask about genera.

I was still interested in that discussion.  Arguing about litature is fun.

Quote from: Omega;882897Except Im not.

Your posts here indicate otherwise.

Quote from: Omega;882897Keep trolling though. The patheticness is at least illuminating.

 Hahahaha. Says the man-child who tries to dish it but sure can't take it.

I hear each Shadowrun product comes with a coupon for these, cause some of you fanboys are so easy to hurt:
(http://www.drug3k.com/img4/anusol_10788_11_(big)_.jpeg)

I'm sure you could use some right about now. :rotfl:

Was talking with a friend a couple of minutes ago, and I told a lie.  The longest CP2020 game I ever ran lasted about 3 years of two or three sessions per week (ah, high school) and started with the 3 PC's down and out and finding a gunned down courier whose only article of jewelry was a watch.

A watch with a datachip inside it holding plans that could destabilize the world.  What those plans were, I luckily never had to detail.

The first arc was them finding it, discovering that it had some sort of heavily encrypted data on it, and considered selling it.  To which I pulled a 'dick move' by preemptively having a team from Infocomp strike at their home.  Which started a running firefight that lasted about a week of game time.

I was a huge fan of a lot of the then popular Cyberpunk anime, like Cyber City Oedo 808, A.D. Police, Bubblegum Crisis, Appleseed, Neo Tokyo, so I borrowed a lot of that for the game.

Second arc was finding out why the Players were now targeted.  And the reason they survived is that all three were Solos.  Very competent Solos.  They got the names of several prominent organizations.

Third arc was them fighting back, lots explosions, and it escalated as they were going around the world to find out who was behind this.  There were also a lot of corporate break ins and black ops.

Fourth arc was the culprit, Arasaka (who for some reason, I never liked back then.  Still not sure why.  It's not like any of the other megacorps were any nicer) making a move to retrieve their datachip, havign lost all patience and eliminating as discreetly as possible all possible players and obstacles.

Fifth and Final arc, was the players going to Neo Tokyo and ending it.  By assaulting the Arasaka tower itself.  Which actually was a lot like the first Matrix end scene where they save Morpheus.  Right down to the multi-gun shoot out in the lobby, and the riding the elevator to the top floor and blowing up the building.  They even did the cable cutting thing, and use it to get to the top office floor.  Except a little more excessive destruction.

It was, according to my friend, who played the ex-Marine in that campaign, "GLORIOUS!".  And the funny thing was, they realized that all this, no one actually new just how 'dangerous' the data was.  The world simply watched the news, and kept on truckin'.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;882905It was, according to my friend, who played the ex-Marine in that campaign, "GLORIOUS!".

I am in awe of your campaign, and wish I could have played.

Neuromancer doesn't have ftl. I can't now remember in this thread who thought that, but it's a complete misreading. The AIs communicate using good old fashioned radio at light speed in line with the laws of physics we know and if not love at least have learned to live with.

Although if ftl precludes cyberpunk we've also just taken out Blade Runner, and it's all getting a bit no true Scotsman for me.

Also, Arroz, I preferred Cyberpunk 2020 but way to kill the discussion of cyberpunk gaming (in which I would absolutely include Shadowrun). For fuck's sake. You've turned a potemtially interesting thread into Tangency-style bollocks. Well done.

What can I say. I've had plenty of help in creating havoc. Lol

I discuss respectfully and seriously with those who extend me the same courtesy.   if the facts and reasoning I present cause people to lose their shit and lose their ability to counterpoint in a levelheaded way , that's not my problem. You go right ahead and excuse the shitheads who got all huffy over an opinion.

 If someone starts shit with me because they don't like my opinion, you can bet your ass they'll get a bucketload from me because that's what they deserve. ;) if you're gonna dish it, you sure as hell need to be ready and able to take it, lol

It's late where I am. I'll post tomorrow why although I agree the Shadowrun setting is science fantasy I still regard it as a cyberpunk game. It's about praxis basically, it plays as cyberpunk at the table and explores cyberpunk themes in that actual play, so as a game that makes it cyberpunk. Were it a novel I would consider it, well, probably urban fantasy.

Actually, interesting question. Lauren Beukes novel Zoo City is often argued as cyberpunk but contains a blatant paranormal gimme (though it's unexplained so by an Olympic stretch could be made science). Gibson I think viewed it as cyberpunk, and I think possibly so would I if pushed. What do others think?

Quote from: Headless;882898So on the last page before the flame war (actually maybe in the middle of the flame war) I have some points to make and questions to ask about genera.

I was still interested in that discussion. Arguing about litature is fun.

Welcome to the club. I wanted to know more about Cyberpunk 2020. Not listen to page after page of pedantic trolling about how elves = not cyberpunk.

Whatever the game wanted to model. It seemed to toss alot of that out the window with CPv3 (2030?) AKA: The game with the dolls. What did later editions bring back or change after that?

Quote from: Headless;882898So on the last page before the flame war (actually maybe in the middle of the flame war) I have some points to make and questions to ask about genera.

I was still interested in that discussion.  Arguing about litature is fun.

We can still don that, provided that a certain type of fanboy is able to keep their emotions in check in the face of differing opinions...you know, like adults are expected to do.

Quote from: Omega;882937Welcome to the club. I wanted to know more about Cyberpunk 2020. Not listen to page after page of pedantic trolling about how elves = not cyberpunk.

What specifically did you want to know? (Bear in mind, my knowledge is a bit rusty as it's been at least a decade since I had the books.)

Quote from: Omega;882937Whatever the game wanted to model. It seemed to toss alot of that out the window with CPv3 (2030?) AKA: The game with the dolls. What did later editions bring back or change after that?

Not quite sure what they wanted for CPv3, to be honest.  It was a bad mishmash of what sounded like a 10 year old's anime fanfic.

And there are no later editions 'yet'.  They're currently working in tandem with a video game and bringing a tabletop revision called Cyberpunk 2077.

Really? It ended with v3? I thought there was an edition after? Guess not.

Quote from: Omega;882942Really? It ended with v3? I thought there was an edition after? Guess not.

There is going to be.  The real issue is how willing is Mr. Pondsmith's audience willing to get into a new edition, and how honest is he going to be to his stated ideal, after the cock up that CPv3 turned into.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;882884So what did the rest of you guys focus on?

As a GM?

99% of times it's about a band of friends attempting to make some money and fortune in the world ran and controlled by corporations. Fantasy elements tend to be pushed to the far background, dragons, while influential are sleeping beasts, one step from being merely a boogeyman, magic is treated as part blessing, part curse and all people who use it aren't to be trusted, because they are probably controlled by something dark and sinister.

I think I tried to achieve "raw CP" without openly excluding fantasy elements from the setting.

As a player?

There has been too many session to count, and my characters were of wide variety, but I think that overprotective sniper/rigger with trust issues builds were dominant.

For some reason, I've never in my life prepared a female character for SR. I'm not sure why.

Quote from: D-503;882919Actually, interesting question. Lauren Beukes novel Zoo City is often argued as cyberpunk but contains a blatant paranormal gimme (though it's unexplained so by an Olympic stretch could be made science). Gibson I think viewed it as cyberpunk, and I think possibly so would I if pushed. What do others think?

so far all that I can find about it is that people classify it as magical realism (a term that has been diluted, some argue) or urban fantasy, and that Gibson wrote a foreword to it saying it's very very good.

They mention moxa land as outright Gibsonian cyberpunk. I would like to read both of them.

Quote from: Headless;882852I don't know what the other guy is saying. I am saying in a story since both are just made up by the author magic and science are the same thing.  A plot device to get to tell the story he/she wants to tell.

Everything in fiction is made up. I'm not sure how this is helpful in delineating genres, though.

If you mean that authors are imagining devices into the fiction that do not have real world counter parts, sure. But then I'd also say that you're ignoring the assumptions behind what is being made up, which is an important distinction.

 In sci-fi, as I've said repeatedly, the base assumption is real world technology or science which is then extrapolated by assuming advances have been made in its understanding. Some sci-fi is harder than others. Neuromancer is soft science, because Gibson wasn't a techie. Cyberspace in Neuromancer, however, is obviously extrapolated from BBS technology and and graphics technology of the 80's.

It is reasonable up to a point to allow for the possibility, however remote, that technology could develop in that direction. Given that they're already experimenting with letting people control vehicles with the brain (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/12040216/Mind-controlled-cars-unveiled-in-China.html), it's not in the realm of impossibility that they *might* one day be able to send images directly to the parts of the brain that process images.

Fantasy magic with power words, fireballs, and things like that which rely on manipulating "energy" via your naked will? When can one expect something like that to ever become a reality?

Those are big differences that wouldn't make sense to ignore.

QuoteWhen dealing with magic there is a line by Chief Dan George, "sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesn't" (little big man) for me that's what makes it magic.  Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.   If it works all the time it's technology.  If you understand how it works, you are a scientist.  

Technology sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. You wouldn't call how a space shuttle works magic because a number of them have blown up or disintegrated.

QuoteIf your protagonist is using and discovering laws of an energy field or probability distorting matrix, and causing desired effects in a predictable way, than he (or she) is a scientist.  No mater how out there or magical the field is.  

Would such laws be based on anything resembling the real world experience available to us, or even the fringes of science? If not, it would not be science. Positing that mana exists, for example, is not based on any real world experience most people have or on any science I know of. Even less so that such force could be manipulated psychically to heal people and cast fireballs.

QuoteIf they are conducting rituals they don't understand, which sometimes produce the desired affect but they don't know how or why than they are a wizard.  The techno guys from 40k are wizards, not scientists.  

The difference between a wizard and a scientist is in the practicer not in the world.  Especially in a work of fiction.  

I turn on my computer and use it without understanding the inner workings. I'm not a wizard, and I doubt many people would call themselves wizards. The same is true with the denizens of a sci-fi world. They don't need to understand the science to know that the tech they use is not something mystical. They don't call themselves wizards. The only time people call themselves wizards in relation to tech is when they're being tongue and cheek. They're not literally thinking of themselves as Gandalf equivalents.

People call themselves ninjas all the time. Are they literally?
 
The difference is absolutely in the world, because both the practitioners and non-practitioners are part of the world. It matters what their assumptions are about how their world works. It matters if they think it's something mystical that they can control with their will alone, or whether it's something based on physical laws that don't care what your thoughts are telling them.  

QuoteI guess I started by saying they were the same and went on to explain the differences.  Hopefully I have done so in a way you can understand.  Even if you don't agree.

I get where you're coming from, but it seems like it's an argument based on arguing semantics, when most reasonable people know there is a difference between believing in magic and the supernatural, and knowing that there are scientific principles behind how things work.

QuoteSecond.  It was suggest to me that genera and sub genera may be an out moded way of categorizing and thinking about things.  We don't have filing cabinets any more.  Putting things in one and only one drawer isn't how we do things.  Now we tag things, and we tag things with a bunch of tags.  I would tag, Fire fly with #western, space western, sci fi, blah blah blah.

I'd say that the sum of the tags itself carries meaning that the tags by themselves don't. That you wouldn't just tag Fire Fly with #western and leave it at that is telling.

I'd also say that the tags are only useful in identifying elements that you can find in a work, but that a genre better captures the gestalt of a work.

QuoteCan I keep the cyber punk tag?  Or does that gave to go because of the elfs?  

No one ever said you couldn't keep it. Just that it's not defined by that tag only. That tag identifies one of the elements in the stew. The sum of the tags would be more meaningful to look at, and genre would probably capture the spirit better.

QuoteWould a house stop being Victorian if it had a modern kitchen and LED lights?

 Victorian is used to describe the architecture, not the circuitry, right?

Anyway, I think we could boil this whole argument to sci-fi settings showing us something that we think could be plausible in some future. In many ways, we already live in a cyberpunk setting, and even the less plausible parts like cybernetics, are looking more plausible each day (the various links I've shared). Other things may never become a reality, but they were probably plausible as a distant future at the time cyberpunk became a thing. That makes it sci-fi.

When you include magic in your setting, you're already starting from an implausible assumption.

Quote from: Omega;882679But really. Tell me whats so great about the RPG rather than telling me how some other RPG sucks because having elves in it magically invalidates it.

I would *never* claim that Shadowrun is invalidated because it's got elves in it. I'm not even making that claim now. It's a perfectly fine game. The only nuance I'm stating is that I don't consider it a better exemplification of the cyberpunk genre than CP2020. That's all.

And yes, I think the fact that magic and fantasy elements are injected into it help justify my perspective. But I fully accept that my opinion of the genre comes from my experiences, and my consumption of the "source material" (and not just books). I think the fantasy-stuff in SR doesn't serve the conceits of the genre at all.

But I think it's perfectly fine as a game. I look at SR as "it's own genre" within a sub-genre. I have no problem calling it "Fantasy-cyberpunk" as a sub-genre of "sci-fantasy". It's like how I look at D&D as it's own brand of fantasy within the larger genre.

Quote from: Omega;882679For example. How does 2020's netrunning compare to Shadowruns? If the CCG was any indicator then it must have been more nuanced than Shadowruns?

I can't speak for SR's decking rules. Never had someone play one in the games I participated in. In CP2020 however, take it with a grain of salt, this was early the 90's understanding of the Net lensed through the Gibson-books, CP2020's rules were pretty fun.

They suffered from one thing - lack of integration into the rest of the game overtly. It was almost it's own sub-game within the system. But it didn't mean other PC's couldn't interact with the Netrunning rules without being a netrunner - not at all. In fact, and I think I've said this, I had my party all take Programming, and that allows any PC to create programs for Netrunning, so we had one Netrunning in the group but he ran with customized software from the rest of the PC's. My favorite was this huge attack program called Godzilla, which in the Net looked like a 600-ft tall Godzilla that they launched at the Night City University datafortress... what they didn't take into account was that the NCPD traced their connections to their own dorm-room and kicked down the doors and everyone was troded in with the netrunner so they "could watch the action"... and got jacked out and were in cuffs with guns at their heads.

But live and learn - the netrunning rules, for their time, were fun. But due to their segregation from the rest of the game, fell to disuse. I hear it was common in a lot of CP2020 games.

Quote from: Omega;882679Or how well does 2020 allow you to adventure outside the "mercenary crook" style of Shadowrun? Seems like it can handle playing a musician, a businessman, etc? Which are things Shadowrun would be harder pressed to handle.

and so on.

I don't think there's anything CP2020 does that SR couldn't do. But the primary differences are conceits of the setting not the conceits of themes of the setting.

Quote from: tenbones;883062I don't think there's anything CP2020 does that SR couldn't do. But the primary differences are conceits of the setting not the conceits of themes of the setting.

Now that's a discussion I'd like to have with you, but apparently we're going to have to do it through email, because I guess Pundit's "Batslap Clause" no longer is in effect and pure, smugly and proudly admitted to, thread shutdown is something we can do now.

Or you know, people who can't handle differences like adults can stop acting like children, and stop flaming others for having different opinions. Failing that, these men-children can create their own thread and protect their fee fees from  opinions they don't like. Or maybe just join college, where administrators will coddle you and protect you.

But I've never argued that SR can't do what CP2020 does anyway, so if sensitive types promise not to have a meltdown, maybe the discussion can happen.


Edit:

Quote from: Omega;883078Yeah riiiight.

And of course, Omega admits he can't act like an adult right after this post.

Yeah riiiight.

So we know we can't count on Omega to act like an adult. How surprising.

Quote from: Omega;883078Yeah riiiight.

Why are we engaging him?  It's clear he's a troll (who will use this post and claim I'm some SR fanboi -which is doubly Ironic because I've only played/run SR for about 5? sessions, but that's not important-) who wants to lord over us.  Th infantile crowing he does whenever he gets to post something demeaning about us is all the proof we need.  Just ignore him and move on.

No, what's clear is that you men-children crumble at the sight of a different opinion: that Shadowrun is sci-fantasy. You're very adamant about defending your own opinions on the matter, but god forbid I should, lol.

Also, Christopher Brady is just salty that he can't tell me what's on topic in this thread and what isn't.

If I mock you for acting like shitheads, it's because you deserve it. If you learned how to disagree without throwing hissy fits that wouldn't happen.

I'm going to try and take a thoughtful shot at answering the premise of this thread.

Gonna take read through "Home of the Brave" tonight, which for me, really is a good expansive view of what the world of CP2020 is like - moreso even than the main book which skims the surface of the world while relating the rules.

I'll try and give it a good stab after a fresh re-read and post my thoughts tomorrow.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;882909I am in awe of your campaign, and wish I could have played.

Thank you.  It was, I admit, one of my luckier and more successful campaigns.  One that I sometimes wish I could have kept all my 2020 books.  But alas life, and mice, decided paper was good for the digestion.

Or something.

If I had the money, I'd buy them all back (and I had most of the books) in PDF format.

Man, what a dumpster fire.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;883013so far all that I can find about it is that people classify it as magical realism (a term that has been diluted, some argue) or urban fantasy, and that Gibson wrote a foreword to it saying it's very very good.

They mention moxa land as outright Gibsonian cyberpunk. I would like to read both of them.

Yeah, it's not magical realism. Urban fantasy with a noir/cyberpunk feel would be fair, except it makes it sound shit and it's not.

Moxyland is pure cyberpunk including by the definition you've used here. It's the weaker book so I'd read it first then move on to Zoo City.

Quote from: tenbones;883091I'm going to try and take a thoughtful shot at answering the premise of this thread.

Gonna take read through "Home of the Brave" tonight, which for me, really is a good expansive view of what the world of CP2020 is like - moreso even than the main book which skims the surface of the world while relating the rules.

I'll try and give it a good stab after a fresh re-read and post my thoughts tomorrow.

It's funny, back when I ran cyberpunk 2020 it never occurred to me to use the published setting (which I thought godawful). I took it as a generic cyberpunk rag and made my own settings.

Then again, I did that with Traveller too.

It really surprised me when I found out people thought the setting in 2020 was actually important and key to the game.

One thing I do think the book got really very badly wrong was actually quite central - style over substance. I would say that's about as close to the opposite of cyberpunk as it could be. Cyberpunk is all about utility - the street finds its own uses for things. I can't think of a single cyberpunk source from the period where the characters emphasised stuff looking good over how it worked. It always seemed to me a massive misreading of the genre.

That and the drug rules, which were comical, and the fact hackers had to pay the phone bill. Actually, I don't think it was that great a game. It was just that all the others were total shit.

Gurus Cyberpunk wasn't bad looking back, assuming you were cool with Gurps and Gurps as an engine worked fairly well for a gritty setting where intelligence and speed were key attributes and muscle could be bought. The points system really struggled though with the concept of being able to buy upgrades. Transhumance Space has the same issue.

Transhuman Space I know, autocorrect changed it and transhumance space seemed too good to delete.

Quote from: D-503;883113Transhuman Space I know, autocorrect changed it and transhumance space seemed too good to delete.

Transhumancy?

I think you found the next genre to meld with fantasy. The kvetching will be EPIC.

Now to build the setting...

;)

Quote from: D-503;883113It's funny, back when I ran cyberpunk 2020 it never occurred to me to use the published setting (which I thought godawful). I took it as a generic cyberpunk rag and made my own settings.

Well if you look at the general books of the world: Main book (which is just a very high-overview) - but the real regional stuff:

Home of the Brave: United States - does a good job of setting up a U.S. sandbox. PUH-lenty of room to toss in your own stuff. It covers the general history of how the US got to it's current state, and how the government finally attempted to fight back against corporate corruption. Has lots of rules on the military with new military life-paths for all the different services including rules for Spec-ops. But on the fluff side it does a good job, as I recall, of explaining what life is like in America for the average person (shi-tpa-town)

Eurosource - High-level view of Europe. It's okay. I prefer to do my own thing and pick it apart. Glaringly missing is information on the Euro-solo agencies and the Angels they touted in CP2013. They do give some really powerful options for Bioware... which definitely puts it apart from the US in terms of what kinds of lifestyle people can enjoy.

Pacific Rim - It's a big book, goes fairly deeply (as far as CP books are concerned) into Asian nations. The *big* thing they introduce is a new more involved Martial Arts system that is... pretty technical. I hated it at first... then I assimilated it and came to kinda like it. It's still a bit janky and you don't TECHNICALLY need it... but it has its uses. The ninja-class (yeah... /wank wank) is the anti-solo. I don't think it's broken, but it's kinda silly. I'd rather just call it "the commando" but they tie it to these Japanese jack-off fantasies that everyone nowadays makes fun of (OOO NINJUTSU!!!) - and I'm part Japanese so yeah, it's a little thick even for me. But fuck it - it's CP2020. It does a decent job giving you the CP2020 Imaginary Version of Asia in context with the rest of the world - and you can take it or leave it without much worry. It'll give you more than enough fodder for some quick jobs to do in these nations without getting too bogged down.

Near Orbit/Deep Space - Okay now this is where CP2020 really shines imo. They did a good job of making you feel your PC's are going to space for the first time and what to expect. It really was a treat for my players who suddenly found a lot of their hardware didn't work normally (word of warning - your smuggle your sub-machinegun into space, you're likely going to kill yourself and possibly everyone else around) It truly is an alien place for the uninitiated. And the rules were clear and concise on how to handle things. It's a great place to visit with TONS of RP opportunities but I wouldn't wanna live there.

When Gravity Fails - if you don't want to pretend the Middle-East destroyed itself you can use this book based on Effinger's novel. It introduces new-tech that might be a bit like "Artifacts" for your CP2020 game (relative to D&D) - so be cautious (Chipped skills up to +7 anyone? Beam lasers? oh my!) But it's got a really good vibe for doing runs in the Middle-East.

Overall - the CP2020 world is spread out enough to where you can piecemeal it all you want with little issue. I took what I liked from the books, sprinkled some Gibson, some Effinger, some Steven Barnes, a dash of Apocalypse Now and the Road Warrior, and Kentucky Fried Movie with some Seven Samurai, and I was good to go.

It really surprised me when I found out people thought the setting in 2020 was actually important and key to the game.

Quote from: D-503;883113One thing I do think the book got really very badly wrong was actually quite central - style over substance. I would say that's about as close to the opposite of cyberpunk as it could be. Cyberpunk is all about utility - the street finds its own uses for things. I can't think of a single cyberpunk source from the period where the characters emphasised stuff looking good over how it worked. It always seemed to me a massive misreading of the genre.

Let me re-frame that for you. IT IS those things you cited. Utility. However, the game's assumptions is that YOU are different. After all, like all the heroes of the cyberpunk books you're going off the rails, while the sheep of society are lulled into ever more decadent pursuits and distractions. It's the world itself that has become a pop-culture commercial nightmare *by design*. The erstwhile heroes of our game, just live in it.

That's why you have wageslaves, and urban tribalists, and everything inbetween rubbing elbows to get their next buck for the next bag o' kibble.

It's a reflection of the world the PC's inhabit not necessarily of the PC's themselves, though it's probable they might on some level. My games in particular tended to be dark affairs. Where the questions of life, liberty and pursuit of whatever gets you off often were at odds with one another. So pick two, you poor fuckers, and get ready for the backlash.

Quote from: D-503;883113That and the drug rules, which were comical, and the fact hackers had to pay the phone bill. Actually, I don't think it was that great a game. It was just that all the others were total shit.

I dunno about that. I pushed a lot of drug-use in my games among my NPC's to desensitize my PC's to the fact that it was common. But I have some experience in that arena, so I tried to make it alluring, but obviously I'd never force my PC's to do it. I adjusted the drug rules to better represent the realities of the Drug War (which was a big thing in the CP2013 game and the Chrome Berets - it set the stage for cyberlimb proliferation - silly I know) but it was their way of changing the drugs of choice to resemble more synthetic origins. Which is understandable - if you accepted that. I just tweaked it.

As for hackers paying for phone bills. Well... sure. Of course nothing stops you from hacking that within the game. While not implicit - you certainly could do it.

Quote from: D-503;883113Gurus Cyberpunk wasn't bad looking back, assuming you were cool with Gurps and Gurps as an engine worked fairly well for a gritty setting where intelligence and speed were key attributes and muscle could be bought. The points system really struggled though with the concept of being able to buy upgrades. Transhumance Space has the same issue.

Transhuman Space I know, autocorrect changed it and transhumance space seemed too good to delete.

the conceits of GURPS Cyberpunk were solid. I just didn't care for the system much. But the book was outstanding, as most GURPS books are.

Near Orbit/Deep Space frankly desrved its own game line it was (they were) so good.

Quote from: D-503;883127Near Orbit/Deep Space frankly desrved its own game line it was (they were) so good.

That is true.

pacific rim is a fantastic splat book. probably my fav of all the splatbooks (I think I have 99% of CP2020 books...)

Quote from: D-503;883113It's funny, back when I ran cyberpunk 2020 it never occurred to me to use the published setting (which I thought godawful). I took it as a generic cyberpunk rag and made my own settings.

Then again, I did that with Traveller too.

It really surprised me when I found out people thought the setting in 2020 was actually important and key to the game.

The few glances I've had of Cyberpunk made me think it was more like your take on it. Cyberpunk kitchen sink. Trim to get whatever style you want. Whereas 2030 seemed the exact opposite?

I used the shit out of Night City.

Sounds like they really fleshed it out with the setting books?

Quote from: D-503;883113It's funny, back when I ran cyberpunk 2020 it never occurred to me to use the published setting (which I thought godawful). I took it as a generic cyberpunk rag and made my own settings.

My friend took what he had in there and ran it as a sort of mish-mash of influences in terms of world verisimilitude: Bubblegum Crisis without the mecha suits, Nemesis, and Blade Runner and a para/military bent. I've always felt you've got enough there to do what you want as long as you have something in mind to add little details.

Night City was a great sandbox, though. Too bad the only person who ever ran it for me was a killer GM.

Quote from: Omega;883254Sounds like they really fleshed it out with the setting books?

I would say they took the obvious path of giving you a little metaplot, and then they fleshed out the obvious things that needed to be fleshed out within the limits of their small production staff.

And they did a pretty damn good job.

I took a re-read of Home of the Brave. It really is a good sandbox. They have to explain their future timeline to justify the reasons that the settings exists, and they do a fairly believable job. It's light on rules, but what rules they do have are rock-solid extrapolations of what already exist in the main book.

Which brings me to the Main Book for CP2020 - as I said earlier it is pretty light on setting (outside of Night City) they just give you a general timeline and brief highlights, outlining major players in the setting.

I've reconnected with how well crafted the CP2020 sandbox actually is. I've never cracked them open to look at them critically like this before (since I haven't run a CP game in over a decade). But in terms of content, between the Main Book and now, accounting for some of the ridiculously out-of-date tech, the concepts hold strong.

It made me realize that Home of the Brave (and the Night City sourcebook in particular - which Chris Brady, thank you for reminding me- was a *SUPERB* book. I can't believe I left it off my list. Old man Tenbones) - really gets to the crux of what CP2020 was "trying to model".

It's a dystopia where 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 10% of the population. Where the average American is eating what we'd consider high-grade dogfood. The Middle-class is nearly non-existent. 70% of the population is in poverty - 30% of the current population has *died* due to plague, war, and Martial Law. It's shitty out there kids.

I think the Main Book does a good job of modeling the cyberpunk life *within* a city. But the *VAST VAST VAST* majority of America, and likely the world, is like the Road Warrior+

What's intriguing to me - reading it with fresh eyes... I think the setting has become more interesting, and less stale (especially given our politics today). It needs some updating, but I think the game models solidly an entry-point where things could go either way for the PC's. I feel, after reading Home of the Brave - there is a SHIT-TON they could have done with the Nomad packs. It could probably support itself as a game in its own right, but there ARE some expansive rules and writeups for the Nomads - so they didn't just gloss it over.

I'm also pleased to see that many of the things we're fighting about today, concerning privacy and the possible issues of government over-reach were addressed in CP2020 as things that are inevitable with the collusion of corrupt government organizations along with their corporate masters. While it's not modeled perfectly, it's definitely eerily consistent.

Some of the interesting facts posited:

100,000,000 Americans die in a 15-year span due to violence, pestilence and starvation.

The United States have balkanized. In the main CP2020 book, it concerns itself mostly with California being NorCal and SoCal.  So many of the states themselves are almost like indepedent territories. That by itself is fodder for lots of gaming possibiltiies (smuggling, cross-state politics, etc.)

Most education for poor Americans consists of adults chipped with a topic and spewing it out IF that. That has lead to a brain-drain of epic-proportions, though the wealthy get real educations.

65% of the population lives in "Squalid Misery"

10% live in "Poverty"

15% live in "Middle-Class" - and most PC's are in this range. Average Salary with perks is about $16k - adjusted for Euros to Dollars.

10% are "Wealthy"

They cover how travel works. Dirigibles! and MagLevs.

There is a wealth of information on the "state of life"... and as bleak as it is, I'm cracking up with how much fluff detail they put into it. Taxes, lifestyles, education, division of labor, and info on those that are Zeroes (those with no government ID cards; nomads etc.) There is a lot of fodder here. They even get into religions and new emerging philosophies. None of which I found too unrealistic or even objectionable - but the book puts in a *lot* of plothooks (literally marked "PLOTHOOK") for their use - but they use it for other items in the book as well and they're all pretty well done.

Where the book really shines is the Government. They go in-depth on how the new American government works (I should also say they use comparative examples throughout the book on how America works vs. Europe - so it really sets the stage), including the Military which I think is the best part of the book.


So all in all. I think CP2020 by itself in the mainbook, is just a set of rules with a glossing snapshot of the high-level view of life in one city. If you want  to know what life is *really* like... Home of the Brave, Eurosource and Pacific Rim.

Together - I'd say it does a remarkably good job of creating a sandbox that can contain just about every cybpunk-trope one can imagine, without meta-plotting you into oblivion. This casual review of Home of the Brave has made me want to start digging through the rest of my books now...

I haven't run CP2020 in years, but tenbones' posts have me thinking about cracking open the books again.  We never really used the setting books until later, when I ran a Night City cops campaign...my earlier games centered on Silicon City, a San Jose that had been ravaged by an earthquake, leaving the rich to flock to their well-guarded towers and everyone else trying to scrabble out a living on the (broken) streets.  I had come up with the idea of durable boxes and shipping containers at some point, and an entire section of the downtown area was Box Town, with people living in these containers.

It's a game I really should revisit.

I lovingly remember my C-2020 game based out of Phoenix. The economic, cultural, and political surge from the New Phoenix Spaceport provided an excellent backdrop for adventures. There was a lot of trade travelling the maglevs between the Neo-Phoenix, Las Vegas, and San Angeles metroplexes. Lots of things to steal, people to smuggle, causes to champion.

The big opportunities came when the Rothschildes and Tsurtami families came down from Elysium Orbital to party. No one ever moved against them directly, you understand. But, all of the other players that orbited around them, oh, they were ripe pickings.

I had for my inspiration Near Orbit, The Millennium Project (A treatise on how to jump-start our way to near post-scarcity. Actually a rather interesting read.), and Night's Edge, which allowed me to put in some low grade psychic powers. I was having humans begin the next evolutionary leap, and some people had low grade telekinesis, foresight, telepathy, and empathic healing. You had to be veeerrrry quiet about them, otherwise the Men in Black would take you away to an installation built on a dry lakebed.

Pondsmith also worked on TSR's Buck Rogers XXVc about 2 years later. Or about the same time as 2020. They both came out in 1990.

I hope Cyberpunk 2077 makes a ton of money, Mike deserves a big payday for decades of fun.

Quote from: D-503;883113It's funny, back when I ran cyberpunk 2020 it never occurred to me to use the published setting (which I thought godawful). I took it as a generic cyberpunk rag and made my own settings.

Then again, I did that with Traveller too.

That certainly is one way to approach those two. There is another, too, however.

QuoteOne thing I do think the book got really very badly wrong was actually quite central - style over substance. I would say that's about as close to the opposite of cyberpunk as it could be. Cyberpunk is all about utility - the street finds its own uses for things. I can't think of a single cyberpunk source from the period where the characters emphasised stuff looking good over how it worked. It always seemed to me a massive misreading of the genre.

Well, that is a central point not only in cyberpunk:). I mean, take swashbuckling. What is more true to the spirit of swashbuckling? Is it a flashy jump in a desperate duel on the rooftops, or sneaking a dagger between the ribs of your enemy on a dirty street? Relentless practicality or doing things that can kill you, because you believe you should, and not because you expect a reward?
And just as in cyberpunk, the answer is "yes".

Quote from: tenbones;883317I would say they took the obvious path of giving you a little metaplot, and then they fleshed out the obvious things that needed to be fleshed out within the limits of their small production staff.

And they did a pretty damn good job.
(snipped)

It's a dystopia where 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 10% of the population. Where the average American is eating what we'd consider high-grade dogfood. The Middle-class is nearly non-existent. 70% of the population is in poverty - 30% of the current population has *died* due to plague, war, and Martial Law. It's shitty out there kids.

I think the Main Book does a good job of modeling the cyberpunk life *within* a city. But the *VAST VAST VAST* majority of America, and likely the world, is like the Road Warrior+

What's intriguing to me - reading it with fresh eyes... I think the setting has become more interesting, and less stale (especially given our politics today). It needs some updating, but I think the game models solidly an entry-point where things could go either way for the PC's. I feel, after reading Home of the Brave - there is a SHIT-TON they could have done with the Nomad packs. It could probably support itself as a game in its own right, but there ARE some expansive rules and writeups for the Nomads - so they didn't just gloss it over.

I'm also pleased to see that many of the things we're fighting about today, concerning privacy and the possible issues of government over-reach were addressed in CP2020 as things that are inevitable with the collusion of corrupt government organizations along with their corporate masters. While it's not modeled perfectly, it's definitely eerily consistent.

Some of the interesting facts posited:

100,000,000 Americans die in a 15-year span due to violence, pestilence and starvation.

The United States have balkanized. In the main CP2020 book, it concerns itself mostly with California being NorCal and SoCal.  So many of the states themselves are almost like indepedent territories. That by itself is fodder for lots of gaming possibiltiies (smuggling, cross-state politics, etc.)

Most education for poor Americans consists of adults chipped with a topic and spewing it out IF that. That has lead to a brain-drain of epic-proportions, though the wealthy get real educations.

65% of the population lives in "Squalid Misery"

10% live in "Poverty"

15% live in "Middle-Class" - and most PC's are in this range. Average Salary with perks is about $16k - adjusted for Euros to Dollars.

10% are "Wealthy"

They cover how travel works. Dirigibles! and MagLevs.

There is a wealth of information on the "state of life"... and as bleak as it is, I'm cracking up with how much fluff detail they put into it. Taxes, lifestyles, education, division of labor, and info on those that are Zeroes (those with no government ID cards; nomads etc.) There is a lot of fodder here. They even get into religions and new emerging philosophies. None of which I found too unrealistic or even objectionable - but the book puts in a *lot* of plothooks (literally marked "PLOTHOOK") for their use - but they use it for other items in the book as well and they're all pretty well done.

Where the book really shines is the Government. They go in-depth on how the new American government works (I should also say they use comparative examples throughout the book on how America works vs. Europe - so it really sets the stage), including the Military which I think is the best part of the book.


So all in all. I think CP2020 by itself in the mainbook, is just a set of rules with a glossing snapshot of the high-level view of life in one city. If you want  to know what life is *really* like... Home of the Brave, Eurosource and Pacific Rim.

Together - I'd say it does a remarkably good job of creating a sandbox that can contain just about every cybpunk-trope one can imagine, without meta-plotting you into oblivion. This casual review of Home of the Brave has made me want to start digging through the rest of my books now...

Well, the Euro book has some issues;). But I agree, the problem with CP2020 and FWTD (which I tend to mine for setting content no matter which one we're playing) is not in how much they're getting wrong. The problem is, it seems they might be getting way too many things right.
And these are not the kind of games I'd like to consider an accurate prediction, or even a semi-accurate prediction.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883460I hope Cyberpunk 2077 makes a ton of money, Mike deserves a big payday for decades of fun.

I only found out CP2020 relatively recently, so not yet a decade - but I concur.

So, there I was shaking my head at the direction this thread had gone, and Tenbones came and pulled it back out of the fire with his excellent breakdown of the books.

Ah... I love 2020, but alas I've never found a GM, and as a GM I've never got a 2020 game to really jell, they all fell apart during the first session.

I think the curious thing is how Cyberpunk and Shadowrun together ended up not so much modeling 'cyberpunk' fiction, but becoming the default stereotype of what we think of as the Cyberpunk genre!

They did this by utilizing elements already in the genre, of course. But Cyberpunk the RPG, or Shadowrun (without the magic) are, today, more like what people typically think of as 'cyberpunk' than anything Gibson ever wrote.

Quote from: RPGPundit;885507I think the curious thing is how Cyberpunk and Shadowrun together ended up not so much modeling 'cyberpunk' fiction, but becoming the default stereotype of what we think of as the Cyberpunk genre!

They did this by utilizing elements already in the genre, of course. But Cyberpunk the RPG, or Shadowrun (without the magic) are, today, more like what people typically think of as 'cyberpunk' than anything Gibson ever wrote.

And here I thought Johnny Mnemonic, the movie, not the short story, was the gold standard for Cyberpunk misconceptions.

I think, more than anything, Blade runner has had an influence on the popular presentation  of cyberpunk. probably followed by the matrix, and then anime like gits.

given how niche rpgs are, I wouldn't attribute popular conceptions of cyberpunk  directly to them.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885543I think, more than anything, Blade runner has had an influence on the popular presentation  of cyberpunk. probably followed by the matrix, and then anime like gits.

given how niche rpgs are, I wouldn't attribute popular conceptions of cyberpunk  directly to them.

Yes, but I wonder how much influence cyberpunk games have had on the authors of said works:D.
Besides, the influence of RPGs is overrated. There's seldom many people playing them at once, but there's plenty of people that played them once;).

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885543I think, more than anything, Blade runner has had an influence on the popular presentation  of cyberpunk. probably followed by the matrix, and then anime like gits.

given how niche rpgs are, I wouldn't attribute popular conceptions of cyberpunk  directly to them.

Akira colored my perception of Cyberpunk anime in terms of tone and style; there's precious little cyber-culture in the film (or the manga) beyond some high-tech in the background (the various computers used by the scientists in the first few chapters, for example; Kaneda's laser-rifle in later ones).

On the other end of the spectrum is Bubblegum Crash and Bubblegum Crisis, two OVAs that unashamedly draw their thematic inspiration from Bladerunner (right down to the idoru group the power-suit wearing team is named: Pris and the Replicants).

Live-action wise, Alien, Aliens and Outland are all heavily influential: their tech is worn, beaten, dirty and lived-in.  Gene Roddenberry never conceived of a universe where the government was utterly corrupt and working hand-in-glove with equally morally bankrupt companies to the detriment of society, but Dan O'Bannon, James Cameron and Peter Hyams certainly did.  I've wanted to run a Cyberpunk-set Outland campaign for a long time now.  It's got it all: corrupt cops, a corrupt corporation, synthetic super-drugs, grubby, worn-out, lived-in tech, all set on an airless moon half a billion miles from Earth...

Quote from: AsenRG;885555Yes, but I wonder how much influence cyberpunk games have had on the authors of said works:D.
Besides, the influence of RPGs is overrated. There's seldom many people playing them at once, but there's plenty of people that played them once;).

I wondered that too. It's hard to know for sure. Not that it couldn't be the case, but I'd be surprised that roleplayers would be over-represented in the field of script writers, directors, etc.

But thinking about  Pundit's comment more, I find that the most obvious influence from cyberpunk as a concept in films is the look of characters and locations, and the high-tech urban setting, which follows the Bladerunner template more than some of the literature or the rpgs. I don't see many movies that actually depict cyber modifications. Hardware does; Robocop for the titular character; the movie Nemesis; Johnny Mnemonic...and those are the only ones that come to mind right now. The corporate dystopian aspect you get fairly often, but it's not rare for that to be absent (Hardware hews closer to Mad Max in that respect. The Matrix doesn't really have a corporate dystopia, but it's closer to the Skynet scenario). You also get the cyborg/what-is-human thing once in a while too.  I'm not sure I'd chalk up Robocop's handling of that theme to Bladerunner, but I think you can safely chalk up GITS exploration of that theme to Bladerunner, IMO.

It's interesting that, in live action films, you don't often get virtual reality explored in the context of a global internet, as it's presented in the rpgs mentioned and in Gibson's  and Stephenson's stuff. Jhonny Mnemnonic is the only one that I've seen doing it; maybe The Matrix, though in a twisted way.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;885566Akira colored my perception of Cyberpunk anime in terms of tone and style; there's precious little cyber-culture in the film (or the manga) beyond some precious little high-tech in the background (the various computers used by the scientists in the first few chapters, for example; Kaneda's laser-rifle in later ones).

Yeah, but I'm more referring to the presentation of cyberpunk in media. I can't claim with certainty that Akira borrowed its urban look from Bladerunner, but I'd not be surprised if it did. I don't know what inspired the gang stuff.

Also, I think that the high-tech that exists in akira is pervasive. You've got stuff like the holographic ads, kaneda's bike, vehicles, and stuff. Not as much as in Bladerunner or BGC, but still different enough from our own tech level that you could call it near future.  

 

QuoteLive-action wise, Alien, Aliens and Outland are all heavily influential: their tech is worn, beaten, dirty and lived-in.  Gene Roddenberry never conceived of a universe where the government was utterly corrupt and working hand-in-glove with equally morally bankrupt companies to the detriment of society, but Dan O'Bannon, James Cameron and Peter Hyams certainly did.  I've wanted to run a Cyberpunk-set Outland campaign for a long time now.  It's got it all: corrupt cops, a corrupt corporation, synthetic super-drugs, grubby, worn-out, lived-in tech, all set on an airless moon half a billion miles from Earth...

I think that the tech in Alien is basically the same as in Bladerunner. It has the same retrofitted look, probably because they used the same props for both movies. Sometimes I fancy they are in the same universe and time line, but I'm not sure if Ridley has ever said anything about it.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885576I can't claim with certainty that Akira borrowed its urban look from Bladerunner, but I'd not be surprised if it did. I don't know what inspired the gang stuff.

Bosozoku, a Japanese motorcycle gang subculture. The Clowns fit right in, and are in fact pretty mild in comparison to other stuff that pops up.

To add what ArrozConLeche said (and I think you did a great job of summing up a lot of seminal cinematic representations) -

I'd also say there's a lot of fiction and movies based on that fiction that had an influence on the cyberpunk genre. I'd say that Anthony Burgess's book 'A Clockwork Orange' and Kubrick's (and in my opinion BETTER) movie version was an inspiration.

I'd even say "Escape from New York", "the Warriors" and "War Games" had an impact.

But to me - these things had an impact on the cultural consciousness. When Neuromancer dropped... it was like a bomb. Perfect book at the perfect time. It kicked down the doors of a post-Cold War near future that everyone could feel in their cynical guts (at least if you lived in the urban cities.) Then of course Bladerunner dropped... and there it was, fully visualized for the non-reading crowd alike.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;885598Bosozoku, a Japanese motorcycle gang subculture. The Clowns fit right in, and are in fact pretty mild in comparison to other stuff that pops up.

Yep. There's a yakuza gang-war brewing right now in fact.

Bosozoku are really low-end of the spectrum in Japanese organized crime in terms of influence, but definitely have their place in the discussion. It's a very cyberpunk entry point for gaming purposes too.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;885598Bosozoku, a Japanese motorcycle gang subculture. The Clowns fit right in, and are in fact pretty mild in comparison to other stuff that pops up.

Wow, cool! Are those sort of like the rice rocket version of the 1%'ers here?

Quote from: tenbones;885600To add what ArrozConLeche said (and I think you did a great job of summing up a lot of seminal cinematic representations) -

Cyberpunk is probably the only genre I've really wanted to explore in as a complete way as possible. Other than bad movies, of course, but that's not a genre. :)

QuoteI'd also say there's a lot of fiction and movies based on that fiction that had an influence on the cyberpunk genre. I'd say that Anthony Burgess's book 'A Clockwork Orange' and Kubrick's (and in my opinion BETTER) movie version was an inspiration.

I have not read the book, but the movie really had a cyberpunkish feel in vague ways.

QuoteI'd even say "Escape from New York", "the Warriors" and "War Games" had an impact.

Hell yeah. The Warriors and Streets of Fire have much of the cyberpunk neon drenched look down pat. The only thing that's missing is the technology, and a few other things.

I don't know if you remember 400 Boys in Mirrorshades, but the pictures I had in my mind when reading it were inevitably a lot like what I saw on The Warriors. I couldn't help it.

QuoteThen of course Bladerunner dropped... and there it was, fully visualized for the non-reading crowd alike.

(Not so) small quibble. I think Bladerunner was released before Neuromancer. Supposedly, Gibson left the theater in dispair when he saw the movie, prior to Neuromancer being published.

Blade Runner: 1982
Neuromancer: 1984

However, that said, both of them did have a powerful impact on a teen me. Along with... lots of movies from the early '80s.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603Wow, cool! Are those sort of like the rice rocket version of the 1%'ers here?

Not precisely, but I wouldn't argue that point. They tend to be a *lot* younger than your average 1%er.

They're like more gangbanger's that are closer to the street-racing scene here in America by analogy. Like you'll see an element of Crips and Bloods and Surenos/NorCals into street-racing, Bosuzoku are like those particular kinds of gangbangers. They do a lot of petty-crime etc. But those that get into heavier stuff, court the yaks and are often called upon by the yakuza until they can get "in" to do "stuff". It allows them to earn their place and show their bonafides. Some Bosuzoku are actually controlled by established yakuza groups. It's a stepping stone for a lot of the younger yaks. So not all bosuzoku are gangsters per se, in the organized crime sense. They're like one branch of the farming league.

Of course it's been years (read: decades)  since I was involved in anything associated to this stuff. I'm assuming little has changed. But I could be wrong. /hands you ten-cents covered with grains of salt.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603Cyberpunk is probably the only genre I've really wanted to explore in as a complete way as possible. Other than bad movies, of course, but that's not a genre. :)

I would say I was the same way... but I admit I felt that way about Lord of the Rings and Middle-Earth. But in the modern-sense I think cyberpunk made me want to rediscover not just the world IN the genre - but it made me reconsider what in happening around me.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603I have not read the book, but the movie really had a cyberpunkish feel in vague ways.

Oh it's very proto-cyberpunk. Embraces international influence not only in terms of the movie, but it assumes that street-culture itself would be forced to embrace foreign elements (in this case incorrectly - Russian. But chalk that up to cold-war consciousness at play). If you get past all the mod-influenced stuff trying to pass itself off as *futuristic!* - it's very much a lower-middle-class cyberpunkish future. Mind-control, free-will, sociopathy as defensible expression,  all the elements are there! Just no cyber.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603Hell yeah. The Warriors and Streets of Fire have much of the cyberpunk neon drenched look down pat. The only thing that's missing is the technology, and a few other things.

I still tink bottles at my kids, crooning "Warrrriors...." My and my friends dressed up like the Baseball Furies on more than one Halloween. Good times.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603I don't know if you remember 400 Boys in Mirrorshades, but the pictures I had in my mind when reading it were inevitably a lot like what I saw on The Warriors. I couldn't help it.

Good call!!!! That was a powerful image that now that you mention it, totally calls back to the Warriors. Growing up as a teen in Los Angeles during the 70's and through the 80's, I think this kinda stuff was always in my consciousness. The Warriors in particular was a powerful thing - even though we kinda laughed at the "50's" style portrayal of gangs. When it got to the parts with Cyrus and this unified gang-front - that was very much already in play with the Crips and Bloods where I grew up. And it whiffed very strongly of the potential dystopian urban-hellhole that the cyberpunk genre embraces. You see it very strongly in CP2020.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603(Not so) small quibble. I think Bladerunner was released before Neuromancer. Supposedly, Gibson left the theater in dispair when he saw the movie, prior to Neuromancer being published.

You know, I heard this. I think Gibson was already done with the book when the movie launched, it just hadn't been published. What this says to me is that the cyberpunk consciousness was already simmering in the collective imagination. Scott and Gibson just took it over the boiling point into explosion-mode.

I would disagree with Pundit that CP2020/Shadowrun are the exemplars of the genre. I agree with others that say TTRPG's are too niche to take that kind of credit. Especially since in fiction and movie circles the genre is still very much alive, if not, more evolved than CP2020 certainly.

Quote from: tenbones;885611Not precisely, but I wouldn't argue that point. They tend to be a *lot* younger than your average 1%er.

They're like more gangbanger's that are closer to the street-racing scene here in America by analogy. Like you'll see an element of Crips and Bloods and Surenos/NorCals into street-racing, Bosuzoku are like those particular kinds of gangbangers. They do a lot of petty-crime etc. But those that get into heavier stuff, court the yaks and are often called upon by the yakuza until they can get "in" to do "stuff". It allows them to earn their place and show their bonafides. Some Bosuzoku are actually controlled by established yakuza groups. It's a stepping stone for a lot of the younger yaks. So not all bosuzoku are gangsters per se, in the organized crime sense. They're like one branch of the farming league.

That's really interesting. Plenty of fodder for campaigns. :) It reminds me of Black Rain, another movie that at times feels very weakly cyberpunkish because of the visuals. It's that ridley scott touch.

QuoteI would say I was the same way... but I admit I felt that way about Lord of the Rings and Middle-Earth. But in the modern-sense I think cyberpunk made me want to rediscover not just the world IN the genre - but it made me reconsider what in happening around me.

Before I got into cyberpunk, I devoured everything Dragonlance, or by the Hicks/Weissman team (Star of the Guardians). They're good writers, but I wish I had discovered Tolkien first.

I usually read speculative fiction for the worldbuilding aspect of it. Not having grown up stateside, or in environments with more organized gangs, or with access to networks/bbs, I never thought about it much in terms of the world I was in. After reading some sociology books on gangs like the gangster disciples and things like defensible spaces, though, I began to see the connections more concretely.

QuoteI still tink bottles at my kids, crooning "Warrrriors...." My and my friends dressed up like the Baseball Furies on more than one Halloween. Good times.

Haha. Are you able to get your kids to watch any of those 70's and 80's flicks?

QuoteWhen it got to the parts with Cyrus and this unified gang-front - that was very much already in play with the Crips and Bloods where I grew up.

"Can you dig it!?"

I've been meaning to find the book that the movie was inspired on. I read it was written by a sociologist and is supposed to be very realistic.

QuoteYou know, I heard this. I think Gibson was already done with the book when the movie launched, it just hadn't been published. What this says to me is that the cyberpunk consciousness was already simmering in the collective imagination. Scott and Gibson just took it over the boiling point into explosion-mode.

That's probably the truth.

QuoteI would disagree with Pundit that CP2020/Shadowrun are the exemplars of the genre. I agree with others that say TTRPG's are too niche to take that kind of credit. Especially since in fiction and movie circles the genre is still very much alive, if not, more evolved than CP2020 certainly.

yeah. I'll admit, though, that CP2020 was my gateway to cyberpunk. Like I said, I was very into dragonlance, and horror, but the cp genre really captured my imagination.

Quote from: tenbones;885602Yep. There's a yakuza gang-war brewing right now in fact.

Bosozoku are really low-end of the spectrum in Japanese organized crime in terms of influence, but definitely have their place in the discussion. It's a very cyberpunk entry point for gaming purposes too.

The book Speed Tribes (which correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's a loose translation of the term bosozoku) gives a little bit of insight into the Speed Tribes mindset, although it is very dated now (1993-ish, I think).

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885576Also, I think that the high-tech that exists in akira is pervasive. You've got stuff like the holographic ads, kaneda's bike, vehicles, and stuff. Not as much as in Bladerunner or BGC, but still different enough from our own tech level that you could call it near future.  

I don't know that I'd call it pervasive so much as set-dressing; Tetsuo's obsession with Kaneda's bike is touched on but isn't a major focus in the anime.  In the comics, it is a bit more but by the time the major acts of the comics kick off, the entirety of Neo Tokyo is in ruins and it's more of a postapocalypse situation.
 

QuoteI think that the tech in Alien is basically the same as in Bladerunner. It has the same retrofitted look, probably because they used the same props for both movies. Sometimes I fancy they are in the same universe and time line, but I'm not sure if Ridley has ever said anything about it.

Scott reused a few things here and again; if you notice the video instrument panel in Gaff (E.J. Olmos') flying car and the escape pod (and possibly the actual Nostromo itself) display the same data a few times.  It's hard to miss once you know what you're looking at.

The idea that (perhaps) they're shared worlds would be an intriguing line of thought.  Although beyond the scope of P.K. Dick's work in some ways, you could make the argument that the rush to colonization in Alien/Aliens and the search for off-planet resources was an outgrowth of the third world war that exterminated much of the fauna on earth and left earth a fallout-dusted dying world (not really explored deeply in the film other than the comment about Tyrell's owl).  Perhaps the Shimagua/Domingo Corporation, The Tyrell Corp., and Weyland/Yutani are all competitors.  Hell, let's throw in Consolidated Amalgamated from Outland just to cover all our bases! :)

New question about cyber punk.

All the important foundational works of cyber punk you have listed on the past couple of pages have a strong element of street violence, hoods, gangs, violent crime.  Warriors, Akira, Neuromancer, definately A clockwork orange, Robo Cop, add in Judge Dredd if you like.  

They are all 80s and 90s sone even earlier.  In the 80s violent crime was getting really bad (so I have read).  Then it started to drop off in the early 90s.  No one really knows why.  The leading explanation is probably Roe vs Wade.  My favourite explanation is taking the lead out of the gasoline.  Now we have very low, absurdly low, almost supernaturally low levels of violent crime.

Is cyber punk obsolete?  


You can't write any of those stories (Neuromancer possible exception) with out a dread of violent street gangs.  We don't much violent crime, is it still possible to write those stories?

Quote from: Headless;885655New question about cyber punk.

All the important foundational works of cyber punk you have listed on the past couple of pages have a strong element of street violence, hoods, gangs, violent crime.  Warriors, Akira, Neuromancer, definately A clockwork orange, Robo Cop, add in Judge Dredd if you like.  

They are all 80s and 90s sone even earlier.  In the 80s violent crime was getting really bad (so I have read).  Then it started to drop off in the early 90s.  No one really knows why.  The leading explanation is probably Roe vs Wade.  My favourite explanation is taking the lead out of the gasoline.  Now we have very low, absurdly low, almost supernaturally low levels of violent crime.

Is cyber punk obsolete?  


You can't write any of those stories (Neuromancer possible exception) with out a dread of violent street gangs.  We don't much violent crime, is it still possible to write those stories?

If you're up for a bit of reading, I would say go back to Burning Chrome. It's a collection of short stories and essentially lays the foundation for Neuromancer and the Sprawl trilogy. While you had gangs the stories gave a strong sense that street crime was the shallow end of the pool and it was the corporate stuff that doesn't get reported where the real money was. In addition to the horrid adaption of Johnny Mnemonic, this is also the source of the New Rose Hotel if you are more of a movie person.  

More recently Gibson wrote a trilogy of present day novels starting with Pattern Recognition. They are a fun read as well.

Quote from: Headless;885655New question about cyber punk.

All the important foundational works of cyber punk you have listed on the past couple of pages have a strong element of street violence, hoods, gangs, violent crime.  Warriors, Akira, Neuromancer, definately A clockwork orange, Robo Cop, add in Judge Dredd if you like.  

They are all 80s and 90s sone even earlier.  In the 80s violent crime was getting really bad (so I have read).  Then it started to drop off in the early 90s.  No one really knows why.  The leading explanation is probably Roe vs Wade.  My favourite explanation is taking the lead out of the gasoline.  Now we have very low, absurdly low, almost supernaturally low levels of violent crime.

Is cyber punk obsolete?  


You can't write any of those stories (Neuromancer possible exception) with out a dread of violent street gangs.  We don't much violent crime, is it still possible to write those stories?

The Water Knife is the most cyberpunk thing I've read in forever, by Paolo Bacigalupi.  I highly recommend it to, like, everyone.

Honestly, I think Cyberpunk is incredibly alive and vital, it's just set in the modern day or the very, very near future.  Breaking Bad is incredibly cyberpunk, in my opinion, it just doesn't have any cyberwear in it, but the rest of it -- the minimization of the individual in the face of corporate and government power, the underworld, subcultures, drugs, the street finding its own use for things, all of that's there.  Same with The Bridge, both versions.  I could go on, but in general, I think cyberpunk is now.  Gibson proved that, if nothing else, with his last trilogy.

I'm with Future Bond Villain. I think cyberpunk is more relevant than ever. I'd even say it's more relevant *now* than when it was incepted.

I don't think it's hyperbole at all to say we *are* living through the cyberpunk era right now. It's happening. We're on the advent of burgeoning technologies that are impacting our culture even now in tectonic ways. It's easy to lose sight of these things.

We're carrying around mini-supercomputers compared to the desktops that existed back in Gibson's time. Hell I *remember* people still using punchcards back then! Now? We're creating hearts from your own stem-cells, AI has advanced to the point where the idea of "work" is called into question. Driverless cars are a few years away - consider the massive impact that will make. It's like the gap in time between the Wright Bros. taking off at Kittyhawk, and several decades later - we were on the fucking Moon.

It's *bigger* than that.

Sidetrack. I realized something else about CP2020 that made me think of my foray into cyberpunk. Music. When I first read Gibson, I was digging on Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream, and Gary Numan. By CP2020 - I was blasting Front 242, Skinny Puppy, Frontline Assembly. I was also dosing hard on  - Anthrax, Maiden, Black Flag, Metallica, Specimen and even lots of Public Enemy, NWA, Ice T, and other hardcore rap acts. CP2020 embraced all of it.

I had a very diverse group of players - some more into music from one scene to another. But the CP2020 game allowed me to cross-pollinate a *lot* of that music into the game and it felt right. Playing EZ Muthafuckin-E as background music in an area of the CZ controlled by Crips (I used Los Angeles as my primary city) made the soul-crushing menace of 2020 south-central (which we lived on the edge of in real life) seem that much more authentic. While my players that were into doing the Rocker-thing I'd play Queensryche "Rage for Order" in their clubs, and that worked perfectly too.

Even today cyberpunk-style music proliferates. I still find bands that come and go but clearly have their roots in a lot of the music that find a home in the eclectic cyberpunk genre.

Syntax - "Bliss"  (https://youtu.be/uoEf0nuJ73g)

Actually the whole album Meccano Mind is wonderfully cyberpunk.

CP2020 really embraced that I thought, but I think it gets lost in most discussions about it.

You know, Tenbones, it's funny...I was having a conversation with some friends the other night about Cyberpunk culture, Gibson etc. and I was talking about the tonal shift from the Sprawl Trilogy + Burning Chrome to the Bridge Trilogy.  I know the Bridge Trilogy has it's own grit and sorrow and madness but it's cast from a different mold than the Sprawl Trilogy: by the end of the Cold War it was clear that, no, the Soviets weren't going to have all of the oil producing countries in their pockets, Bonn wasn't going to flare and die under a multi-megaton explosion, the US wasn't going to become a Balkanized wasteland of 20th century ruins etc. etc.  Affected by the positive end of the Cold War in which the west "won" (in that we had no global conflagration) and the sudden inrush of peace and prosperity, it really shaped the Bridge Trilogy.

Of course, Gibson couldn't (hell, no-one could) predict 9/11, two (or three depending on who you talk to) economic collapses (the .com collapse, the housing collapse and the general economic crash in 2009-20...well, ongoing again depending on who you talk to), two "endless wars", but assuming those things didn't happen, the slightly brighter future of The Bridge Trilogy becomes a lot more plausible.  Which is not to say that it is entirely desirable either (the Bridge is it's own city because of a post-SF Earthquake humanitarian crisis the type of which we were simply not acquainted with in the US, at least not until Katrina hit NO), but at the same time it is somehow less terrible than the Sprawl.

Of course, we did have 9/11, Katrina, 3 economic collapses, two endless wars that are partially fought by corporate mercenaries (although despite being in force still in Iraq and Afghanistan you'll note that since 2008 the media has had a hell of a lot less to say about Halliburton and Blackwater...I guess once "your guy" is in office what was bad is OK or ignorable) - so, yeah, I think the Sprawl Trilogy is a lot more relevant.

Quote from: Headless;885655Is cyber punk obsolete?

Two words: Johnny Mnemonic.

Definitely!!! While I think the Bridge Trilogy is important to the genre, I don't think in terms of context and timing it matches the Sprawl in terms of overall scope and power.

It's almost precisely because the Bridge Trilogy builds on ideas from the Sprawl (and other genre works) that it can't match it. It's like talking about Rock n' Roll and it's the Beatles... and everyone else, even though there was rock before the Beatles and all the stuff they pulled from.

I also think that George Alec Effinger's 'When Gravity Fails' (and the rest of that series) offers a different, and perhaps (arguably equally) important look at cyberpunk via the lens of Middle-Eastern culture, giving some added gravitas I always felt missing from the "Cold War" influences of early cyberpunk works. Effingers stuff stands out very clearly by its own conceits - which is important because CP2020 glosses the middle-east over by nuking it to glass. Effinger's stance is a bright one in developing a post-American/Russian narrative that while dark, it's not as nihilistic as it's turning into.

Maybe CP2020 is more correct given the current state of things.  LOL sad but possibly true.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827423According to a conversation posted in TBP (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?754612-Cyberpunk-Gaming-Bleeding-Edge-Emergent-Gameplay-and-Eric-Brennan):



I call bullshit. I don't see anything at all in its core about being that. I see rules for firefights, cyberdecking, etc. Hell, I don't even see what is being claimed above in the fluff surrounding it.

Am I blind?

No, you aren't


Other than the color pallet I don't see why Street of Fire is Cyberpunk in the least. Its exactly what it says on the tin, a rock and roll fable.

As you can tell Streets of Fire is one my favorite movies

 In no way shape or form is Tom Cody a Street Samurai and while yes McCoy could be subbed in for Molly she is really just a down on her heels  opportunist. Its not her regular job.

I'd describe McCoy as the RPG character who was made by a dude, his player didn't make it so a girl played him. Which is basically how it happened in casting. McCoy was originally cast as a middle aged overweight guy.

Even Billy Fish the manager is honorable and tough  he is not a Mr. Johnson, its personal not corporate and he actually cares about Ellen.

As for Ellen, yes technically she a Rocker in Cyberpunk but she is a  musician and apolitical , unlike the games version.


The Cyberpunk RPG as written  models action, fantasy shopping for boys as there are like 7 or more books of nothing but gear I can name off hand  (Chrome 1-4, Blackhand and Maximum Metal and Brainware blowout) all the other books are as crunchy as pea gravel. Yes its set in a Cyberpunk inspired setting but that is really closer to Post Apocalypse at least  in the US .


The US sourcebook Land of the Free and Home of the brave are basically very plausible Mad Max

You can play political rabble rousing which makes sense given the games authors grew up in the 60's early 70's and in a different culture than most White Middle class gamers at the time but I've never seen anyone interested. Its certainly supported, heck you could play a band if you wanted

CP is  ideal for kinetic action and while you can play coffin motel dystopia or Case in Molly in a tree k.i.s.s.i.n.g. you can do that with any game. Its not a supported playstyle.

Honestly neither is it a permanent  dystopia  , the crowding situation in Night City is temporary do to civic collapse and pretty much everyone male and female uses cheap birth control implants.It sucks but people are dealing.

It only becomes a true dystopia with the Cybergeneration which in its own way is kind of modern with a sort of late cyberpunk meets divergent meets doug-locke from new mutants vibe.


Also I don't think any RPG can model passionate relationships like Tom Cody and Ellen Aim  very well. Almost all the players are men, at the time young, now young and middle aged

At the time the game was popular it was more likely to have people with military experience or combat skills   or actual combat experience from the Gulf War  than who had had passionate love affairs.

Even more modern games like Mosterhearts or Swine games don't model romance  well as it  a player base issue, mostly men, many with eccentric personalities or aspies and even many gamer women are odd ducks.

Also the GM + players model is not good for this. C+M or T+E is about passion, intimacy and maybe lust this is not a group activity and its not that great for gaming. Even adult games, typically sexy time card games aren't exactly a regular thing and they are not RPG's in any case,

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782Other than the color pallet I don't see why Street of Fire is Cyberpunk in the least. Its exactly what it says on the tin, a rock and roll fable.

As you can tell Streets of Fire is one my favorite movies

But see? Cyberpunk isn't self-referential. Rock-n-roll fables are absolutely part of cyberpunk. Streets of Fire is not, itself, strictly speaking, cyberpunk. But cyberpunk definitely has "Streets of Fire" in it.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782I'd describe McCoy as the RPG character who was made by a dude, his player didn't make it so a girl played him. Which is basically how it happened in casting. McCoy was originally cast as a middle aged overweight guy.

Even Billy Fish the manager is honorable and tough  he is not a Mr. Johnson, its personal not corporate and he actually cares about Ellen.

As for Ellen, yes technically she a Rocker in Cyberpunk but she is a  musician and apolitical , unlike the games version.

Cyberpunk is just the setting. You're applying the game roles to the characters of a movie that isn't strictly cyberpunk, how it's expressed of course is up to you as the GM - for example, a rocker doesn't *have* to be political. It's the setting of cyberpunk as a social dystopia that makes the power of the Rockerboy an obvious political tool. Let's face it, they have a lot to be angry about. There are rules for a class variant "Rabblerouser" - or something, where you're a political activist. Same ability.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782The Cyberpunk RPG as written  models action, fantasy shopping for boys as there are like 7 or more books of nothing but gear I can name off hand  (Chrome 1-4, Blackhand and Maximum Metal and Brainware blowout) all the other books are as crunchy as pea gravel. Yes its set in a Cyberpunk inspired setting but that is really closer to Post Apocalypse at least  in the US .

Yes and no. It can be any and all of these things. It's designed that way. If it were truly post-apocalyptic you wouldn't have the massive megaplexes that exist in the US. But you could certainly play it that way in between the cities.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782The US sourcebook Land of the Free and Home of the brave are basically very plausible Mad Max

You can play political rabble rousing which makes sense given the games authors grew up in the 60's early 70's and in a different culture than most White Middle class gamers at the time but I've never seen anyone interested. Its certainly supported, heck you could play a band if you wanted

In hindsight you might have an interesting point... KINDA. The assumptions of CP2020 are, at least in the Land of the Free, that the government is kinda trying to work its way back. There are still elections - but only for those with SIN cards. What I'm getting at is it depends entirely on you as the GM what you want to emphasize. It's not *just* post-apocalyptic. It's whatever serves your needs.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782CP is  ideal for kinetic action and while you can play coffin motel dystopia or Case in Molly in a tree k.i.s.s.i.n.g. you can do that with any game. Its not a supported playstyle.

Honestly neither is it a permanent  dystopia  , the crowding situation in Night City is temporary do to civic collapse and pretty much everyone male and female uses cheap birth control implants.It sucks but people are dealing.

It only becomes a true dystopia with the Cybergeneration which in its own way is kind of modern with a sort of late cyberpunk meets divergent meets doug-locke from new mutants vibe.


Also I don't think any RPG can model passionate relationships like Tom Cody and Ellen Aim  very well. Almost all the players are men, at the time young, now young and middle aged

At the time the game was popular it was more likely to have people with military experience or combat skills   or actual combat experience from the Gulf War  than who had had passionate love affairs.

I disagree with most of this. It's not the job of a game to force a behavior upon players that have no interest in doing them. These are elements of a game that exist if your players and GM want it to. To the point that this kind of play might not have existed in your anecdotal experiences - obviously I won't dispute. I won't even dispute that your experience wasn't the norm.

But in my experience it wasn't. My PC's had lovers, they had meaningless sex with NPC's. The game doesn't *need* to model this stuff but it's there. It may not be front-and-center because it doesn't need to be. That you, and many others, may not have engaged in those kinds of things is irrelevant to the system. That said - they even had a skill that covered your use for it: Seduction. So in this regard they modeled it as much as they modeled your ability to do Athletics.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;885782Even more modern games like Mosterhearts or Swine games don't model romance  well as it  a player base issue, mostly men, many with eccentric personalities or aspies and even many gamer women are odd ducks.

Also the GM + players model is not good for this. C+M or T+E is about passion, intimacy and maybe lust this is not a group activity and its not that great for gaming. Even adult games, typically sexy time card games aren't exactly a regular thing and they are not RPG's in any case,

I think you're projecting a lot of different stuff here. I generally play with adults, and our games have adult content, I've had women play - and do adult content, CP is no different than *any* other RPG in how much it emphasizes (it probably emphasizes it more - Hello Mr. Studd/Midnight Lady). It most certainly is about the GM + Player dynamic in these regards. Just like I've seen gaming groups that highly emphasize RP over being Murdersquads.

I'm not sure what you're overall point to this is. Are you saying the game should emphasize and model it more for some reason because clearly the emotional immature/incapable aren't getting it? I'm not clear on this.

I think it's unfair to hold CP2020 - or even Shadowrun to this standard as problem of the system/setting itself. I know of very few RPG's that do it overtly. Just like D&D doesn't go into in-depth modeling about where Half-Elves and Half-orcs come from...

Quote from: tenbones;885801But see? Cyberpunk isn't self-referential. Rock-n-roll fables are absolutely part of cyberpunk. Streets of Fire is not, itself, strictly speaking, cyberpunk. But cyberpunk definitely has "Streets of Fire" in it.

SNIP
I'm not sure what you're overall point to this is. Are you saying the game should emphasize and model it more for some reason because clearly the emotional immature/incapable aren't getting it? I'm not clear on this.

SNIP

I think it's unfair to hold CP2020 - or even Shadowrun to this standard as problem of the system/setting itself. I know of very few RPG's that do it overtly. Just like D&D doesn't go into in-depth modeling about where Half-Elves and Half-orcs come from...

I don't see much or any  SoF in CP2020 YMMV of course. Heck I don't see anyone remotely heroic. Most PC's I've seen are low empathy (3-4 is very common) heavily chromed killers with wired reflexes and cyborg eyes ,

Even in Shadowrun the PC's typically were as amoral as the Mister Johnsons that employed them

Again YMMV

This actually makes perfect sense from a system POV (both systems by default support this kind of game) and from a cultural view.  I tend to agree with Free Northerner  (http://freenortherner.com/2016/03/18/the-high-iq-homo-economicus/)We live in a system that set up for the  benefit of rootless sociopaths . Cyberpunk just blows up some real world trends, add in bionics (and  magic in case of Shadowrun) and lets  the PC's operate outside the law where the players operate within it.  

Its close to wish fulfillment in some ways. Cyberpunk is thoroughly modern

My feeling is that most RPG's, pretty much all of them  are played for action and  combat and sometimes other sorts of conflicts like stealth and entry  almost always with small units

If you  want other types of gaming  if they are the preferred authorial style, the rules ought to support it and if you want Case and Molly making out in a coffin motel or Tom Cody and Ellen Aim relationships the rules need to push that behavior. Give XP, give a refresh reward whatever,

The modern system Blades in the Dark tries to do  this, lets PC indulge a vice which could be "family time" or whatever to reduce stress

Even then it might not happen but if you make a book full of cyberware, guns, and combat rules, since people usually want them expect those things and not much else,


CP2020 hints at social rules  but doesn't really do it well  and while there is a Rockerboy splatbook with interesting rules  , its still not  a common playstyle


Heck even though Cp2020 and Shadowrun  have tons of vehicles  I rarely see anything other than small units of men doing action things just as I rarely see starship combat in Traveller even though its has a lot of support

They do happen but GM's are often afraid of PC power and unwilling to step outside that mode and the players don't seem to mind either. YMMV but I've never had a request for more vehicle action or more relationship stuff or more hacking

I do get regular requests for more combat

So in the end ,I suspect  its going to be a slog to get much more than small unit games and if you want them, it pays to select ones group carefully if you can and to use a system that backs that up.

A much better cyberpunk rock and roll fable is Little Heroes by Norman Spinrad.  Shamefully underrated book.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;885640The book Speed Tribes (which correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's a loose translation of the term bosozoku) gives a little bit of insight into the Speed Tribes mindset, although it is very dated now (1993-ish, I think).

sorry a little late here but thanks for bringing up that book its still helpful even if out dated much like how you still can learn about medicine watching an episode of emergency

Quote from: Headless;885655New question about cyber punk.

All the important foundational works of cyber punk you have listed on the past couple of pages have a strong element of street violence, hoods, gangs, violent crime.  Warriors, Akira, Neuromancer, definately A clockwork orange, Robo Cop, add in Judge Dredd if you like.  

They are all 80s and 90s sone even earlier.  In the 80s violent crime was getting really bad (so I have read).  Then it started to drop off in the early 90s.  No one really knows why.  The leading explanation is probably Roe vs Wade.  My favourite explanation is taking the lead out of the gasoline.  Now we have very low, absurdly low, almost supernaturally low levels of violent crime.

Is cyber punk obsolete?  


You can't write any of those stories (Neuromancer possible exception) with out a dread of violent street gangs.  We don't much violent crime, is it still possible to write those stories?

Cyberpunk isn't really about street crime so much as it is about inequality, I think - it's about globalisation and technological improvements serving the rich but harming the poor. A very 1980s set of themes, but also one which is very much in the zeitgeist nowadays. So to that extent I don't think it has gone away or will do.

As an aside, Roe v Wade or legalised abortion can't be the explanation for the reduction in violent crime because (apart from it being far too simplistic an explanation anyway) the phenomenon exists across the developed world. As with all these things it is down to a vast and complex set of different factors but big and plausible ones would seem to be ageing populations, the tendency for young men to be inside playing video games rather than being outside causing trouble, and the rise of CCTV and other technological advances in security.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;885847A much better cyberpunk rock and roll fable is Little Heroes by Norman Spinrad.  Shamefully underrated book.

I loved Little Heroes.  Still have my copy floating around in a box downstairs. I'd agree that it's an unsung cyberpunk gem.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;885847A much better cyberpunk rock and roll fable is Little Heroes by Norman Spinrad.  Shamefully underrated book.

If we are talking Cyberpunk Rock Fables can I just say ...

Spoiler

(http://www.chud.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Rock-and-Rule-Poster.jpg)

OK. I just was shocked and awed by watching Nemesis for the first time with friends. It is the pinnacle of fantabulous bad-great movies, achieving sublime apotheosis for one's inner 14 year old boy starved of sex & violence. I wander about in a daze even now, a day after, as if I have watched G-d and all I witness now are pale reflections of Its Majesty.

But this is on the heels of absolute disgust with Shadowrun as a functioning system for our play needs. The latest in a string of doomed campaigns recently came to the oft experienced realization that "the system doesn't deliver its promised setting." It's a chunky, clunky, contested, bested, munchkin front-loaded, ass-mined equip list, garbled, time sink of a no-climax whiskey-dicked frotage mess — and we've just had enough. So, if you got a defense for Shadowrun germinating now, I don't wanna hear about it. "Because I am not one of your fans!" -- Mommie Dearest

I want to trod the road to anything approaching the rapid fire glory that is Nemesis, which means Real Time combat speed resolution is at a premium. In fact, Real Time resolution of absolutely everything, social, decking, etc., is now at a premium. Also, functional weapon & armor equip lists, sane "edge rules," less obfuscated pass/fail probability, etc. all of it, is at a premium — if it is at least functional at a less than crunchier than "Jif crunchy, now with Quarry Gravel!" level.

So, how strong is Cyberpunk's chassis to replace wholesale Shadowrun's? What are Cyberpunk's major system quirks, pitfalls, and failures? Can I run a minute long combat in anything less that an hour? Where does the game grind its momentum to a halt and where does it sing?

I'll fuckin' port this movie bad boy into OD&D if I have to, but don't make me go there yet. I'll even whip out the Jenga Dread if need be. (I'll do it motherfuckers, don't you think I'm messin' 'round here, you suckheads! State of the Art!)
:mad:

— with love, ever your friend,
opaopajr :p

What do you mean by "sane 'edge rules?'" I don't know the term "edge rules."

Making a new thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?34789-Opa-s-Shadowrun-Breakdown), because
1. This will turn out to be an epic threadjack.
2. The farthest we get this away from the OP idea of how CP2020 should have modeled Case and Molly's romance, the fucking better.

Nemesis is a great movie. Was what I envisioned Cyberpunk 2020 must play out like.

Quote from: CRKrueger;908692Making a new thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?34789-Opa-s-Shadowrun-Breakdown), because
1. This will turn out to be an epic threadjack.
2. The farthest we get this away from the OP idea of how CP2020 should have modeled Case and Molly's romance, the fucking better.

Quoth for veracity. I respect your better judgment.

Quote from: Opaopajr;908562OK. I just was shocked and awed by watching Nemesis for the first time with friends. [...]

I want to trod the road to anything approaching the rapid fire glory that is Nemesis, which means Real Time combat speed resolution is at a premium. In fact, Real Time resolution of absolutely everything, social, decking, etc., is now at a premium. Also, functional weapon & armor equip lists, sane "edge rules," less obfuscated pass/fail probability, etc. all of it, is at a premium — if it is at least functional at a less than crunchier than "Jif crunchy, now with Quarry Gravel!" level.

Your repeated use of the phrase "real time" reminded me of a free rpg by that name. Its webpage is long gone, but I'll attach it. No gear lists to speak of, sorry. If you want that kind of detail things slow down.

[ATTACH]255[/ATTACH]

Also, this thread seems the right place to link to this movie. What happens when your cyberware company issues a product recall?

[video=youtube;DD9X0dtPLww]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD9X0dtPLww[/youtube]

Quote from: thedungeondelver;885566I've wanted to run a Cyberpunk-set Outland campaign for a long time now.  It's got it all: corrupt cops, a corrupt corporation, synthetic super-drugs, grubby, worn-out, lived-in tech, all set on an airless moon half a billion miles from Earth...

The campaign is called the Third Imperium, 1105. Early Traveller adventures, 76 Patrons/Johnsons, 'nuff said.

Quote from: Omega;908712Nemesis is a great movie. Was what I envisioned Cyberpunk 2020 must play out like.

It really is underrated, mostly because of who the director is, and because it is low budget. I recognized some beats from Gibson's stuff, I thought; particularly the beginning of the movie and the main character's background. Reminded me of Count Zero and the 'solo' character named Turner.

Looks like part of the cyber aspect of cyberpunk might become reality after all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkNeVBaRjag