Quote from: tenbones;883062I don't think there's anything CP2020 does that SR couldn't do. But the primary differences are conceits of the setting not the conceits of themes of the setting.

Now that's a discussion I'd like to have with you, but apparently we're going to have to do it through email, because I guess Pundit's "Batslap Clause" no longer is in effect and pure, smugly and proudly admitted to, thread shutdown is something we can do now.

Or you know, people who can't handle differences like adults can stop acting like children, and stop flaming others for having different opinions. Failing that, these men-children can create their own thread and protect their fee fees from  opinions they don't like. Or maybe just join college, where administrators will coddle you and protect you.

But I've never argued that SR can't do what CP2020 does anyway, so if sensitive types promise not to have a meltdown, maybe the discussion can happen.


Edit:

Quote from: Omega;883078Yeah riiiight.

And of course, Omega admits he can't act like an adult right after this post.

Yeah riiiight.

So we know we can't count on Omega to act like an adult. How surprising.

Quote from: Omega;883078Yeah riiiight.

Why are we engaging him?  It's clear he's a troll (who will use this post and claim I'm some SR fanboi -which is doubly Ironic because I've only played/run SR for about 5? sessions, but that's not important-) who wants to lord over us.  Th infantile crowing he does whenever he gets to post something demeaning about us is all the proof we need.  Just ignore him and move on.

No, what's clear is that you men-children crumble at the sight of a different opinion: that Shadowrun is sci-fantasy. You're very adamant about defending your own opinions on the matter, but god forbid I should, lol.

Also, Christopher Brady is just salty that he can't tell me what's on topic in this thread and what isn't.

If I mock you for acting like shitheads, it's because you deserve it. If you learned how to disagree without throwing hissy fits that wouldn't happen.

I'm going to try and take a thoughtful shot at answering the premise of this thread.

Gonna take read through "Home of the Brave" tonight, which for me, really is a good expansive view of what the world of CP2020 is like - moreso even than the main book which skims the surface of the world while relating the rules.

I'll try and give it a good stab after a fresh re-read and post my thoughts tomorrow.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;882909I am in awe of your campaign, and wish I could have played.

Thank you.  It was, I admit, one of my luckier and more successful campaigns.  One that I sometimes wish I could have kept all my 2020 books.  But alas life, and mice, decided paper was good for the digestion.

Or something.

If I had the money, I'd buy them all back (and I had most of the books) in PDF format.

Man, what a dumpster fire.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;883013so far all that I can find about it is that people classify it as magical realism (a term that has been diluted, some argue) or urban fantasy, and that Gibson wrote a foreword to it saying it's very very good.

They mention moxa land as outright Gibsonian cyberpunk. I would like to read both of them.

Yeah, it's not magical realism. Urban fantasy with a noir/cyberpunk feel would be fair, except it makes it sound shit and it's not.

Moxyland is pure cyberpunk including by the definition you've used here. It's the weaker book so I'd read it first then move on to Zoo City.

Quote from: tenbones;883091I'm going to try and take a thoughtful shot at answering the premise of this thread.

Gonna take read through "Home of the Brave" tonight, which for me, really is a good expansive view of what the world of CP2020 is like - moreso even than the main book which skims the surface of the world while relating the rules.

I'll try and give it a good stab after a fresh re-read and post my thoughts tomorrow.

It's funny, back when I ran cyberpunk 2020 it never occurred to me to use the published setting (which I thought godawful). I took it as a generic cyberpunk rag and made my own settings.

Then again, I did that with Traveller too.

It really surprised me when I found out people thought the setting in 2020 was actually important and key to the game.

One thing I do think the book got really very badly wrong was actually quite central - style over substance. I would say that's about as close to the opposite of cyberpunk as it could be. Cyberpunk is all about utility - the street finds its own uses for things. I can't think of a single cyberpunk source from the period where the characters emphasised stuff looking good over how it worked. It always seemed to me a massive misreading of the genre.

That and the drug rules, which were comical, and the fact hackers had to pay the phone bill. Actually, I don't think it was that great a game. It was just that all the others were total shit.

Gurus Cyberpunk wasn't bad looking back, assuming you were cool with Gurps and Gurps as an engine worked fairly well for a gritty setting where intelligence and speed were key attributes and muscle could be bought. The points system really struggled though with the concept of being able to buy upgrades. Transhumance Space has the same issue.

Transhuman Space I know, autocorrect changed it and transhumance space seemed too good to delete.

Quote from: D-503;883113Transhuman Space I know, autocorrect changed it and transhumance space seemed too good to delete.

Transhumancy?

I think you found the next genre to meld with fantasy. The kvetching will be EPIC.

Now to build the setting...

Quote from: D-503;883113It's funny, back when I ran cyberpunk 2020 it never occurred to me to use the published setting (which I thought godawful). I took it as a generic cyberpunk rag and made my own settings.

Well if you look at the general books of the world: Main book (which is just a very high-overview) - but the real regional stuff:

Home of the Brave: United States - does a good job of setting up a U.S. sandbox. PUH-lenty of room to toss in your own stuff. It covers the general history of how the US got to it's current state, and how the government finally attempted to fight back against corporate corruption. Has lots of rules on the military with new military life-paths for all the different services including rules for Spec-ops. But on the fluff side it does a good job, as I recall, of explaining what life is like in America for the average person (shi-tpa-town)

Eurosource - High-level view of Europe. It's okay. I prefer to do my own thing and pick it apart. Glaringly missing is information on the Euro-solo agencies and the Angels they touted in CP2013. They do give some really powerful options for Bioware... which definitely puts it apart from the US in terms of what kinds of lifestyle people can enjoy.

Pacific Rim - It's a big book, goes fairly deeply (as far as CP books are concerned) into Asian nations. The *big* thing they introduce is a new more involved Martial Arts system that is... pretty technical. I hated it at first... then I assimilated it and came to kinda like it. It's still a bit janky and you don't TECHNICALLY need it... but it has its uses. The ninja-class (yeah... /wank wank) is the anti-solo. I don't think it's broken, but it's kinda silly. I'd rather just call it "the commando" but they tie it to these Japanese jack-off fantasies that everyone nowadays makes fun of (OOO NINJUTSU!!!) - and I'm part Japanese so yeah, it's a little thick even for me. But fuck it - it's CP2020. It does a decent job giving you the CP2020 Imaginary Version of Asia in context with the rest of the world - and you can take it or leave it without much worry. It'll give you more than enough fodder for some quick jobs to do in these nations without getting too bogged down.

Near Orbit/Deep Space - Okay now this is where CP2020 really shines imo. They did a good job of making you feel your PC's are going to space for the first time and what to expect. It really was a treat for my players who suddenly found a lot of their hardware didn't work normally (word of warning - your smuggle your sub-machinegun into space, you're likely going to kill yourself and possibly everyone else around) It truly is an alien place for the uninitiated. And the rules were clear and concise on how to handle things. It's a great place to visit with TONS of RP opportunities but I wouldn't wanna live there.

When Gravity Fails - if you don't want to pretend the Middle-East destroyed itself you can use this book based on Effinger's novel. It introduces new-tech that might be a bit like "Artifacts" for your CP2020 game (relative to D&D) - so be cautious (Chipped skills up to +7 anyone? Beam lasers? oh my!) But it's got a really good vibe for doing runs in the Middle-East.

Overall - the CP2020 world is spread out enough to where you can piecemeal it all you want with little issue. I took what I liked from the books, sprinkled some Gibson, some Effinger, some Steven Barnes, a dash of Apocalypse Now and the Road Warrior, and Kentucky Fried Movie with some Seven Samurai, and I was good to go.

It really surprised me when I found out people thought the setting in 2020 was actually important and key to the game.

Quote from: D-503;883113One thing I do think the book got really very badly wrong was actually quite central - style over substance. I would say that's about as close to the opposite of cyberpunk as it could be. Cyberpunk is all about utility - the street finds its own uses for things. I can't think of a single cyberpunk source from the period where the characters emphasised stuff looking good over how it worked. It always seemed to me a massive misreading of the genre.

Let me re-frame that for you. IT IS those things you cited. Utility. However, the game's assumptions is that YOU are different. After all, like all the heroes of the cyberpunk books you're going off the rails, while the sheep of society are lulled into ever more decadent pursuits and distractions. It's the world itself that has become a pop-culture commercial nightmare *by design*. The erstwhile heroes of our game, just live in it.

That's why you have wageslaves, and urban tribalists, and everything inbetween rubbing elbows to get their next buck for the next bag o' kibble.

It's a reflection of the world the PC's inhabit not necessarily of the PC's themselves, though it's probable they might on some level. My games in particular tended to be dark affairs. Where the questions of life, liberty and pursuit of whatever gets you off often were at odds with one another. So pick two, you poor fuckers, and get ready for the backlash.

Quote from: D-503;883113That and the drug rules, which were comical, and the fact hackers had to pay the phone bill. Actually, I don't think it was that great a game. It was just that all the others were total shit.

I dunno about that. I pushed a lot of drug-use in my games among my NPC's to desensitize my PC's to the fact that it was common. But I have some experience in that arena, so I tried to make it alluring, but obviously I'd never force my PC's to do it. I adjusted the drug rules to better represent the realities of the Drug War (which was a big thing in the CP2013 game and the Chrome Berets - it set the stage for cyberlimb proliferation - silly I know) but it was their way of changing the drugs of choice to resemble more synthetic origins. Which is understandable - if you accepted that. I just tweaked it.

As for hackers paying for phone bills. Well... sure. Of course nothing stops you from hacking that within the game. While not implicit - you certainly could do it.

Quote from: D-503;883113Gurus Cyberpunk wasn't bad looking back, assuming you were cool with Gurps and Gurps as an engine worked fairly well for a gritty setting where intelligence and speed were key attributes and muscle could be bought. The points system really struggled though with the concept of being able to buy upgrades. Transhumance Space has the same issue.

Transhuman Space I know, autocorrect changed it and transhumance space seemed too good to delete.

the conceits of GURPS Cyberpunk were solid. I just didn't care for the system much. But the book was outstanding, as most GURPS books are.

Near Orbit/Deep Space frankly desrved its own game line it was (they were) so good.

Quote from: D-503;883127Near Orbit/Deep Space frankly desrved its own game line it was (they were) so good.

That is true.