Quote from: Future Villain Band;827445I strongly suspect, given what I took as the game's intentions, and especially the plot hooks in the Lifepath system, that if the game were done today, there'd be far more mechanical support for things like doomed romances or your girlfriend being turned into an AI.

Maybe, but when it came out the writers of Cyberpunk 2020 chose to allow roleplaying opportunities to be handled by actual roleplaying and not some rules mechanics. I believe that to have been a good choice because it did not actively support reducing roleplaying opportunities to skill checks. Made for a more fun gaming experience.

Quote from: Gabriel2;827453Streets of Fire.

I no longer have Cybergeneration, but I know he says in that book he had wanted CP2020 to be more like Streets of Fire than what it is.

The two mechanics which are in Cyberpunk which could be interpreted as trying to enforce the game type Pondsmith wanted are:

Lifepath.  It was borrowed straight from Mekton, and it works just as well here.  The catch is that RPGers, being what RPGers are, ignored all these charts in favor of their friendless familyless mercenary characters who just killed shit all the time with no emotion.

Empathy.  This one utterly failed.  It was supposed to model characters losing their humanity and falling prey to cyberpychosis.  The third chapter of the original AD Police seems to have directly inspired this one.  However, that's not what it ended up doing.  Instead the cyber-whores maxed out this stat so they could max out their cyberware.  At best, it just put a limit on cyberware.  At worst, it did the exact opposite of it's intended goal.

See, I looked at the lifepath items as hooks for adventures, but I don't find anything beyond that to actually support modeling things like street romance, etc. Most of the modeling mechanics went to fighting and net running.

Edit: And not that you need mechanics for that, but I don't even find enough guidance or advice on how to properly roleplay things of that nature. Not in the core book at least.

Does anyone have info or a link that might shed light on how Mike Pondsmith actually ran his Cyberpunk games? is the "Listen up you primitive screwheads" book the only record?

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827457Does anyone have info or a link that might shed light on how Mike Pondsmith actually ran his Cyberpunk games? is the "Listen up you primitive screwheads" book the only record?

The first two minutes of the video I just linked are what he wanted the 'feel' of the setting to be like, that's all I could find.

Great video. He looks like a really cool guy.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;827454Let me find the Cyberpunk 2077 video that Pondsmith released in conjunction of the video game (and apparent reboot of the pen and paper.)

Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYxt7cwDk4E

That video still seems to be focused on guns, bullets, cyber-implants. I don't see any romance... so if it's representing what the author wants for the game then it looks like 2020 got it right in the first place. Unless you mean the first two minutes implies he wants it to be about a guy wandering around alone at night.

The person who wrote that original post is delusional.  I had a the cyber-gear and hardware splatbooks for Cyberpunk:2020 back in the day both from R.Tal and from 3pp (DP9).  The reality is this: the game has it so you can have your vital, irreplaceable organs and your brain installed into a synthetic body that gives you Olympian abilities, and then you can have that guy drive a (fully statted out, right down to what it costs in euro!) Main Battle Tank, or stroll around wearing powered armor that would make an Appleseed fan green with envy.

If Pondsmith's game was supposed to be all about some narrative story bullshit, the splatbooks would've reflected that.  As it is, the only thing (and it was incredibly thin) between the above scenarios and players was the ridiculous "cyber-psychosis" rules, which kind of put me in the shoes of people who don't like AD&D and especially don't like the alignment system.  I had a supplement around here called Maximum Metal that was nothing but military hardware for Cyberpunk 2020 and it says in the introduction (essentially) that the hardware in the book can turn your game into G.I. Cyberpunk Joe, and if that happens then the fault is with the GM.

The fact of the matter is I've run every type of Cyberpunk game with the 2020 rules from Bladerunner to Bubblegum:Crisis and there's no "right way" and "wrong way" to do it.  The sole question is: are my players and I having fun?  That's it.  That's all.  The OOP is yet another butthurt dramagamer stomping his feet going "GUYS...GUYYYYYYYYYS!  YOU AREN'T HAVING FUN THE WAY I WANT YOU TO HAVE FUN!  STOOOOOOOOOP COMEOOOOOOOOON "

Quote from: CRKrueger;827435...

The game "didn't know how" - Christ what a fucking load of shit.

More like "people didn't want to". And some who did want to probably did. My sessions often involved moral quandaries and romance. I always tried to make the punks fall in love with someone so they could be used against them later. :-)

Quote from: Future Villain Band;827445...

I strongly suspect, given what I took as the game's intentions, and especially the plot hooks in the Lifepath system, that if the game were done today, there'd be far more mechanical support for things like doomed romances or your girlfriend being turned into an AI.

OK. How? What kind of mechanics do you feel help support or represent romance, broken hearts and a sense of longing? Is that not something that emerges out of play? Something the player experiences based on things happening in the game?

Frank falls in love with Doll, and later Doll is kidnapped and turned into a Ghost, and now Frank carries her around in a "walkman" player so he can talk to Her (like the movie) but misses the physical relationship. Do you give him a penalty to all interaction rolls to represent his melancholy?

Wouldn't it be more compelling if the player just brings it? The person playing Frank decides NOT to pursue a physical relationship with the detective he's been working with even though spurring her advances are going to cause Frank complications in the adventure. That makes for a compelling game IMHO.

Not sure if we could or would want to represent that somehow mechanically. Maybe a disadvantage (ala GURPS)? Even then, that stuff has to be brought into the game via the GM or player.

Quote from: trechriron;827471OK. How? What kind of mechanics do you feel help support or represent romance, broken hearts and a sense of longing? Is that not something that emerges out of play? Something the player experiences based on things happening in the game?

*Cough, cough* Monsterhearts *Cough, cough*

Quote from: trechriron;827471And some who did want to probably did. My sessions often involved moral quandaries and romance.

Me too, and not an OOC metagame mechanic in sight, whodathunk it?

Quote from: trechriron;827471Is that not something that emerges out of play? Something the player experiences based on things happening in the game?

If you're roleplaying, it certainly can.

Quote from: trechriron;827471Wouldn't it be more compelling if the player just brings it?

Of course.

Quote from: trechriron;827471The person playing Frank decides NOT to pursue a physical relationship with the detective he's been working with even though spurring her advances are going to cause Frank complications in the adventure. That makes for a compelling game IMHO.

I agree, but like you, I prefer roleplaying to scriptwriting.

Quote from: trechriron;827471Even then, that stuff has to be brought into the game via the GM or player.

and the Money Quote.  If the players are gonna bring it, they don't need mechanical help.  If the players aren't gonna bring it, mechanical help won't do it.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;827443Now, butthurt overly defensive gamers who don't know their shit may choose to argue with me because they perceive some kind of new front opening in their timeless bullshit battle against storygamers, but since that is largely something occurring in their imaginations,  I don't need to respond to it, anymore than I'd want to address somebody else's tinfoil hat paranoid fantasies.

FVB, those are dark and difficult times. WotC just released an edition of D&D that made a good chunk of RPGnet and ENWorld angry, GW seems to be bleeding money, TSR and oWoD stuff is back in print, and even Kevin Siembieda has licensed a Rifts conversion. A grognard can feel lost and confused in such trying times. Calling for more genre-emulation in a classic game is a great opening for us to fling excrement and call names and generally party like it's 2005.



On a more serious note — I've only played CP2020 once and I've read precious little cyberpunk. Regardless of what one perceives as authorial intent, what sort of genre-emulation mechanic would you have appended to the game?

Because, broadly speaking, I'm in trechriron's "let players roleplay" camp.

But then my 2nd-level paladin just walked into a portal to the Gray Wastes yesterday, so WTF do I know.

Quote from: The Butcher;827484On a more serious note — I've only played CP2020 once and I've read precious little cyberpunk. Regardless of what one perceives as authorial intent, what sort of genre-emulation mechanic would you have appended to the game?

I have not the faintest idea.

The only suggestion I'd venture is perhaps some kind of bennies for characters who do things in line with the desired behaviour.  I guess something like Karma in MSH, but applied to CP situations instead of spandex heroes.

Quote from: The Butcher;827484On a more serious note — I've only played CP2020 once and I've read precious little cyberpunk. Regardless of what one perceives as authorial intent, what sort of genre-emulation mechanic would you have appended to the game?

One of the projects I'm currently working on with another writer focuses on incorporating these genre elements in the game. There are several things that we are doing mechanically to encourage the fast and hard action of cyberpunk both in and out of combat. Characters have motivations they are rewarded for playing out or by manipulating other characters. Being able to run something like the New Rose Hotel with every player walking away form the table happy was a big factor, even if one character is dead, another too paranoid to leave his room and another having completely screwed over the party.

Here are a few articles from the development blog.

Under the Hood: Handlers and Operators

One Size Does Not Fit All – Multiple Characters in Glass Shadows

Handler Spotlight 2: Lector Jones

Operator Spotlight 2: Red

Quote from: Certified;827488Being able to run something like the New Rose Hotel with every player walking away form the table happy was a big factor, even if one character is dead, another too paranoid to leave his room and another having completely screwed over the party.

All that can be accomplished through roleplaying without dramatic genre mechanics.

Quote from: CRKrueger;827493All that can be accomplished through roleplaying without dramatic genre mechanics.

While it might not be your style of game, I was addressing the question that was asked.

Quote from: Certified;827494While it might not be your style of game, I was addressing the question that was asked.

Fair enough, you may not consider those mechanics necessarily essential to your goal, but simply prefer them due to playstyle.  This is a thread, however, where in the OP it's strongly implied the lack of such mechanics made Cyberpunk 2020...well, lacking, so I just thought I bring up the point that such mechanics aren't necessarily essential to achieving that goal.