Quote from: CRKrueger;886682Actually the worst thing they did was introduce Balance Uber Alles.

Balance might be the life of a system, but it's the death of a setting.

I'd argue that the version of "balance" which became fetishized in 3rd Edition design is the death of the system, too. The game plays best when you don't buy into that crap.

Looking at my house rules document, I think my answer is: Everything except grappling, flying, and the concept of "class skills".

For me, D&D 3.5 was my first RPG ever, and I started playing it when I was thirteen, way back in 2007 when 3e/3.5/D20 was in its death throes and 4e was on the way (although when I started playing, I didn't know that until a few months after 4e came out) and so 3e/3.5 has a special place in my heart.

So, here's my reasons why 3e was a good thing.

1. The OGL

2. Ascending AC

3. More customization

1. It wasn't AD&D

2. Dumb things like racial restrictions based on class were removed.

3. A unified resolution system based on the d20.

4. Feats and Skill idea, though pretty horribly implemented.

5. Character customization and an ease of things like Multiclassing.

6. It made spellcasting fun, though later it became broken

7. It gave us E6

No more THAC0, and no more low/negative armor classes being good.

No more 18/100 strength.

No more attribute requirements for classes.

No more random tables like the 'bend bars/lift gates' table, or that base percent chance to disarm traps or sneak around if you aren't a thief.

Will, Reflex, and Fort. saves instead of abstract-to-the-point-of-meaningless 'save vs. petrification and polymorph' and that sort of crap.

An actual skill system.

universalizing multi-classing across races, instead of humans doing it one way (dual classing) and everybody else doing it another way. No more fixed lists of what multi-class combinations each race could experiment with.

Feats. Especially weapon and armor proficiency feats, which gave some justification to initial gear selection beyond "Your cleric can't swing a short sword because shut up." Combat feats that gave a warrior actual options in combat and build.

Hit dice- combining monster stats with their challenge rating in a way that makes it easy to generate more/less experienced monsters.

Quote from: Agkistro;888014"Your cleric can't swing a short sword because shut up."

It was somewhat explained as that the classes didn't get the training for certain weapons outside of what was allowed in AD&D 2e.

I agree with the rest though.  So many subsystems that really didn't work all that well.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;888017It was somewhat explained as that the classes didn't get the training for certain weapons outside of what was allowed in AD&D 2e.

I agree with the rest though.  So many subsystems that really didn't work all that well.

Yeah, they had their justifications.  Having universalized simple weapon, martial weapon, and exotic weapon feats made it feel a lot less arbitary to me though.

Quote from: Agkistro;888019Yeah, they had their justifications.  Having universalized simple weapon, martial weapon, and exotic weapon feats made it feel a lot less arbitary to me though.

Hmm.  OK, on the surface I agree with you, once you get past the surface you get some oddities, where some weapons get stuffed as an Exotic but isn't in 'real life' but is put there for 'balance' reasons.

Good idea, flawed execution, I'd say.

Character customization. Ability Score Bonus (so much better than an entire chart for each ability score to see how it affected different things). Dropping Exceptional Strength. A fairly universal mechanic (though there were still exceptions).

Unfortunately, I feel like it collapsed under its own weight and fiddliness.

The thing that sucked me into 3ed the most was the chargen mini-game. Spend way to long combing through books to put together combinations of feats to make some goofball character concept actually work. Sometimes they choked in actual play but I got a hugely entertaining quasi-pacifist half-orc character out of it (very good at sundering, non-lethal damage and intimidation).

Not really sure having the stuff that made that mini-game so attractive to me is good for the system in general though.

Oh and ascending AC, I've gotten so used to that that I convert old-style AC in my head to ascending style on the fly when playing stuff older editions.

Quote from: Daztur;888145The thing that sucked me into 3ed the most was the chargen mini-game. Spend way to long combing through books to put together combinations of feats to make some goofball character concept actually work. Sometimes they choked in actual play but I got a hugely entertaining quasi-pacifist half-orc character out of it (very good at sundering, non-lethal damage and intimidation).

Despite never wanting to play it again, or god forbid run it, I actually think 3.x/PF is fun to build characters in in that nuts and bolts way. Its neat to see what you can make. (its even fun to try to make things like Pun Pun, or my, by far, favorite the Psychic Sandwich, just never as an actual exercise in making a real character for play)

It just, as you said, doesn't make for very good IN game play.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;888164Despite never wanting to play it again, or god forbid run it, I actually think 3.x/PF is fun to build characters in in that nuts and bolts way. Its neat to see what you can make. (its even fun to try to make things like Pun Pun, or my, by far, favorite the Psychic Sandwich, just never as an actual exercise in making a real character for play)

It just, as you said, doesn't make for very good IN game play.

Yeah, a lot of the goofball builds are boring one trick ponies in actual play (like the various trip biulds) which is why I liked my min-maxed orc as he could switch between charging, sundering and grappling. Had to squeeze every edge I could out of him to keep him up to par with the party's casters who did stuff like take those racial levels and lose caster levels.

Don't think there would've been so much of a cult of balance if 3ed hadn't borked balance so badly.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;887331But but but ... all the KEWL kids are playing 5E!
(I'm pretty tired of people telling me that I'm playing OD&D for "bad reasons" too.)

I like 5e overall. Just a few oddities that make it stumble. And the designers seem to not even know what they designed... ahem...

What bad reasons? Since B and more or less BX are OD&D, does that mean I am playing for bad reasons too? Can we form a club?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;888164Despite never wanting to play it again, or god forbid run it, I actually think 3.x/PF is fun to build characters in in that nuts and bolts way. Its neat to see what you can make. (its even fun to try to make things like Pun Pun, or my, by far, favorite the Psychic Sandwich, just never as an actual exercise in making a real character for play)

It just, as you said, doesn't make for very good IN game play.

That's hardly surprising. There are plenty of people who enjoy rolling up pre-gameplay character careers for Traveller at least as much as playing Traveller. Or, in an even more extreme case, there's a simple enjoyability to making vehicles using the oft mocked GURPS Vehicles rules. It's just not actually conducive to the game to have to use those rules for every rowboat (or to bring the analogy back, every monster you fight in 3.x).

Quote from: Omega;888296I like 5e overall. Just a few oddities that make it stumble. And the designers seem to not even know what they designed... ahem...

What bad reasons? Since B and more or less BX are OD&D, does that mean I am playing for bad reasons too? Can we form a club?

"Nostalgia" and "hates change" are the two biggies.

The notion that I play the game because, you know, I actually like it is not permitted.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;888332"Nostalgia" and "hates change" are the two biggies.

The notion that I play the game because, you know, I actually like it is not permitted.

I hate change for changes sake. I despise change for supposed marketings sake when its been proven false over and over. I will though at least give a new system a glance over and try. Even ones I have a pretty good idea I am not going to be particularly not fond of. That way I at least have a real basis for why I don't like XYZ game or edition rather than the usual "I hate it because someone told me to." sheep.

Get that in board and even wargaming with the "cult of the new" who freak out at the idea of someone daring to keep playing that dirty old version when theres a shiny new version.