(Edit: cross-posted with other Traveller chat.)

My little black books are at home but original Traveller definitely didn't require use of anything other than d6's.

D&D was wildly innovative for its time. Why? Not because of what was in the rules, but what wasn't. It was the first widely disseminated "wargame" to use a GM, so that situations and player-options could be literally "anything you can imagine" while maintaining a consistent and coherent experience.

Other games caught up quickly, though. After the initial innovation I think D&D wasn't just conservative but retrograde in its AD&D incarnation, particularly with respect to craft. I can't really judge modern D&D.

Quote from: McrowYeah, good one.

I have played D&D 3.0 & V3.5 since they came out. In fact I had a stretch of a few years where I did no gaming, but I saw the new D&D books in the store and picked them up. D&D 3.0 is what got me back into gaming.  Now, I prefer to play other games than D&D, but I will not turn down playing with a group if they only play D&D. As I have stated I think D&D is fun (its a decent RPG), I just prefer other games.

I'm not accusing you of it, but I have noticed the phenomena elsewhere. (Often it starts with discussions of "what game got you into roleplaying")

What do you mean by retrograde with respect to craft?

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI mean, really, all the "less evolved" and "neanderthal" comments are trite and boring.

Remember "less evolved" doesn't mean worse and a neanderthal is not any better or worse than a modern human. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Dominus NoxOk, dumping on D&D is so chic with people who aren't into it, and I'm not a big fhan of it myself, but I think it's getting more abuse and less respect than it really deserves.

I don't think it gets more abuse than it deserves, but I do think it gets less respect than it deserves.

Quote from: Dominus NoxSo in my role as a certified Amanojaku(Japanese term that essentially means devil's advocate) I have to point out that D&D deserves a lot of credit. It may not have singlehandedly created the RPG market, and traveller would have come along without it, but it did really become the first star of the field, it introduced the majority of gamers to the concept of role playing and it served as a lightning rod for anti-gamers, allowing other games to remain unmolested byu the jack Chicks of the world.

More to the point, it provided years of great gaming for a lot of people, continues to do so and shows every sign of doing so for some time yet to come.

Quote from: Dominus NoxPlus it inspired a lot of people to look at it and say "Hmmm, good idea, this role playing, but I think I can do better..." which lead to a lot of better games being written.

True, but I think that's irrelevant to respect.  I don't regard the Model T as a good car, even though without it things would have been very different.  DnD stands on its own merits, the fact other games were created in reaction to it is a reason to be glad DnD happened, but not a ground for respect.

Quote from: Dominus NoxYeah, D&D has it's warts and sordid history, but it did a lot for gaming and deserves some respect. it's kind of like the homo habilis that modern gaming evolved from, so have a little respect for it as gamers.

I think the habilis analogy is wrong, because it's not outmoded.  I don't like it personally but it is undeniable that it has been and is tremendously successful at giving a lot of fun to a lot of people.  I struggle to see it as something that's time has passed, it's time is now and the foreseeable future.

On a personal level the habilis thing works for me, in that my personal tastes changed and I left it as something that didn't really do what I wanted from an rpg.  But at the broader level of the hobby I am in the minority, and I think it's important to remember that and that accordingly my tastes are not a matter of objective truth but simply personal preference.

Objectively, it's hard to see it as anything other than a great game, albeit a great game I don't personally enjoy.

Quote from: BalbinusI think the habilis analogy is wrong, because it's not outmoded.

Yeah, a bit more like a shark. It existed in ancient times, it persists today.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI'm not accusing you of it, but I have noticed the phenomena elsewhere. (Often it starts with discussions of "what game got you into roleplaying")

Ok, no problem then.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonWhy not at least try to keep to the thread topic without making backhanded swipes?

Dude, the original post was a bunch of backhanded swipes.

-O

Quote from: obrynDude, the original post was a bunch of backhanded swipes.

-O

I re-read it, and it seemed pretty fair and well-reasoned to me :shrug:

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhat do you mean by retrograde with respect to craft?

I mean it was a very poorly developed game (lots of ideas, little attention to playability) and very poorly presented, compared to many of its contemporaries or near-contemporaries.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI re-read it, and it seemed pretty fair and well-reasoned to me :shrug:

I have to admit, it may not have been intended that way but the original post read to me as basically saying "hey, DnD is crap, but at least people produced some good games to get away from it and it distracted the moral majority guys from going after the decent games".

But your reading may be more correct.

Quote from: BalbinusI have to admit, it may not have been intended that way but the original post read to me as basically saying "hey, DnD is crap, but at least people produced some good games to get away from it and it distracted the moral majority guys from going after the decent games".

That's how I read it too.

-O

Quote from: SettembriniThat's not how RPGs work, don't you know? The "peripheral" stuff is essential to the experience.

Strictly speaking, all that an RPG session requires is a group of people who agree on the basic rules of the game and have a suitable setting in mind. Dice, character sheets, even rulebooks... None of those are absolute necessities.

Quote from: BalbinusI have to admit, it may not have been intended that way but the original post read to me as basically saying "hey, DnD is crap, but at least people produced some good games to get away from it and it distracted the moral majority guys from going after the decent games".

But your reading may be more correct.

I dunno. It read to me like "OK, let's be realistic. D&D isn't the be-all and end-all of RPGs as its most ardent fans profess, but neither is it the albatross around the neck of the RPG hobby its detractors say it is. Let's sift through the bullshit on both sides and get right to the truth - D&D deserves credit for a lot of things, so what are they?"

But if others didn't read it that way, it might explain the contentious nature of this thread.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonBut if others didn't read it that way, it might explain the contentious nature of this thread.

Probably so.

That said, people respond to controversy.  My critical comments got responeded to, my positive post above where I talk about it providing years of fun and still being a game for now and the future got no response at all.