QuoteD&D 3.0 is a lot like the RC!

Which directly contradicts:

QuoteThey have needed 25 years and a great team of designers to decide that the game could use some... skills. They needed 25 years to incorporate Virtues /Merits /whatever you can call the Feats, while many other games have been doing that for decades.

Take one. The are mutually exclusive.

Quote from: RPGPunditD&D is more creative than anything you could ever make.

depends on who the you are refering to with "you". It might be your opinion that  D&D is the most creative RPG, but in the end I highly doubt that it its.

QuoteD&D is more successful than anything you will ever make.

for sure

QuoteThose of us who have no problem with those two statements appreciate D&D.

sorry buddy, but I appreciate D&D but I don't think it is the most creative game out there. Might be more creative than I can do myself but not by much.

QuoteThose who have a problem with those two statements despise D&D.

good of you to decide how people feel about D&D.

QuoteThere's evolution, but D&D itself has evolved more than any other game. And many other games supposed "evolutions" were actually dead-ends, in some cases dead ends that would lead to extinction should they be followed (ie. story-based gaming, and GNS-based Forge-style "indie" games).

RPGPundit

I'm with you on this until you get to he knock on forge style indie games.  You just need to get over the fact that Forge games have their target market and do well in that market (however small it is). Is their really a need to go after them every chance you get? It's getting old in a hurry.

and before you say it I am not a swine, I never once played a game that you describe as a swine game, though I do own a few.

Hi, Settembrini!

I don't think that they're contradictory, unless taken out of context. You have showed how D&D 3.0 is very similar to the RC, even to the point of concrete rules and tables. I don't see much evolution there, frankly, and I again stand by saying that D&D is an excellent design, both in 3.0 or in RC.

The other point stands by the former: many features of mainstream games that are considered a given, have appeared in D&D 25 - 30 years later. And some other have never appeared.

So, I'v learned a new thing: in Pundit's cave, evolution means to make the same as the others, 30 years later. And that's the best the gaming hobby will ever achieve. Settembrini, don't tell me that's not a bit depressing.

3.5 has the cleanest and most sophisticated interacting array of intertwined rule-based options to further a clean, ever moving, no dull moment, action-adventure awesomeness.

In it's recent adventures it's heavy on the side of "DM throws challenge at you: React with smart ressource use!".

It's the most coherent system for this way of play ever developed. It is also offering all possibilites of the medium rolplaying, thereby having a very healthy "game" at the core, around which great adventures can be .

Quote from: ImperatorThey have needed 25 years and a great team of designers to decide that the game could use some... skills. They needed 25 years to incorporate Virtues /Merits /whatever you can call the Feats,

Not true.  Skills in the form of nonweapon proficiencies appeared in 1e Oriental Adventures, 1985.  Combat feats evolved out of the extra uses for weapon proficiency slots.  

D&D wasn't a leader in these ideas but it wasn't as backward as you imply.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYeah, WoW is essentially a squad-based tactical wargame.  The whole point of the game is to build a team with the right tactical balance and then put oneself through increasingly demanding tactical encounters.

Roleplaying simply doesn't enter into it.

Lots of people play D&D like that to some degree as well. Even folks that enjoy the roleplay side of the game occasionally play like that during the combat part of the game.

Hi, Settembrini!

I disagree wildly with you on the point of D&D (I'll leave other D20 variations for the moment) is the best choice for "intertwined rule-based options to further a clean, ever moving, no dull moment, action-adventure awesomeness." I've found other game systems more convenient on that point.

And, on the other arenas outside the clever resource management and tactical options, it doesn't provide with... well...anything.

Hi, Nicephorus!

I stand corrected. But I doubt very much that the non weapons procifiencies could be compared to the skills usual in most other RPGs. That system was also optional even in AD&D 2e, so I stand by the point that D&D did not have something like skills as a core part of the system until many many years after the rest of the hobby had. And when D&D started having skills... many games are going beyond them

And in any case, "D&D is the most evolved game ever" can kiss my ass.

Quote from: ImperatorI stand corrected. But I doubt very much that the non weapons procifiencies could be compared to the skills usual in most other RPGs.. .

One of the first thing I noticed in reading 3e was "Oh, they finally added a normal skill system."  Proficiencies were pretty much either you had it or you didn't.  Even at the time it was implemented, it was odd and something occasionally houseruled to something more standard.  

I believe Traveller was the first with the now fairly standard ability score + skill ranks + die roll model.

Quote from: ImperatorThere are no mechanics that allow motivations, personality or any desire of the PCs to input into the game.

I have a type one personality and I desire your stuff, I am motivated to steal your stuff. The mechanics handle how my longsword helps me releave you of your stuff.

What more mechanics do you need to input your desires, motivations and personality into the game?

You personality, desires and motivations are expressed via speech and action (all covered by the game), or internalised; just like in life.

Quoteit doesn't provide with... well...anything.

Wrong. Gaming fiction, tons of background, maps, mundane item catalogs, illustrations, music, computer games, atlases, miniatures, dungeon tiles...etc. ad nauseam.

It's the most wholesome adventure gaming experience, when talking about what is available ready-to-use for sale. eMule yourself a recent Dungeon Magazine and take a look.

Quote from: ImperatorAnd in any case, "D&D is the most evolved game ever" can kiss my ass.

*in my gospel voice*          

can I get an amen!:D

Quote3.5 has the cleanest and most sophisticated interacting array of intertwined rule-based options to further a clean, ever moving, no dull moment, action-adventure awesomeness.

In it's recent adventures it's heavy on the side of "DM throws challenge at you: React with smart ressource use!".

It's the most coherent system for this way of play ever developed. It is also offering all possibilites of the medium rolplaying, thereby having a very healthy "game" at the core, around which great adventures can be .

A statement like that would lead me to believe that you have not played many games other thatn D&D. I could be wrong.

D&D does what it does well, but there are always games out there that do one aspect of what D&D does better. Some do mupltiple things better.

Quote from: SettembriniWrong. Gaming fiction, tons of background, maps, mundane item catalogs, illustrations, music, computer games, atlases, miniatures, dungeon tiles...etc. ad nauseam.

It's the most wholesome adventure gaming experience, when talking about what is available ready-to-use for sale. eMule yourself a recent Dungeon Magazine and take a look.

I think the discussion here has been about the game , not the peripheral stuff or add-ons. He is refering to the rules.

QuoteA statement like that would lead me to believe that you have not played many games other thatn D&D.

You are,  let not get into a pissing match, but I've played a lot and still try out new stuff regularly, including thematic games. I'm not even a D&D fan. But I see reality and not emotion and rumours.

Have you played D&D recently?

Quote from: NicephorusI believe Traveller was the first with the now fairly standard ability score + skill ranks + die roll model.

Shame GDWs house system was actually (Ability score + skill ranks)*difficulty modifier, roll D20 under.

QuoteI think the discussion here has been about the game , not the peripheral stuff or add-ons. He is refering to the rules.

That's not how RPGs work, don't you know? The "peripheral" stuff is essential to the experience.