Quote from: BagpussWhile techically in biology it doesn't mean one thing is better than another, outside of the field it has taken on that implication.

Still if that wasn't your intent I'll let it drop.

Ah, we're actually in agreement, I entirely recognise the general usage which is different to the technical usage and you are correct in your summation of the general usage.  

Being a geek, I use the technical one.

As do I and I'm the one who used it in the first place so...:fu2:

Quote from: BalbinusIt doesn't.

Evolution is the process of random changes being selected for by environmental pressures, leading over time to adaptational changes.

Which specializes you for current conditions. Once those conditions change, you are no longer suited for your environment.

Glad to see how well people stay on topic.


D&D set the ground work for almost all games to come.  It opened the field and pretty much created the market.  It's also regardless of willingess to admit it the standard by which all RPG's are judged - some better, some worse.

So for that I'm greatfull for D&D it opened my young eyes (at the time) to a new world of possibilities.  It's created the spark that started my journey into this wonderful hobby.  It's also responsible for creating the tie into to some excellent friendships that have lasted years.

Now back to your evolution debate.

D&D is still the standard.  It's not for everyone but most rpgs are made largely in emulation of or reaction to D&D.  Rifts and WoD are pretty much the only games I can think of that had large audiences that weren't D&D players as well.  

That hasn't been another rpg that has made such a large chunk of the population look and think "Hey that's different."  But there will probably be something that in the future (1 year or 100 years from now) that will change everyone's perception about what an rpg is.  
That game might already exist, but until more than 1000 people know it exists, it's not a revolution.

You can think of D&D as Ford.  Similar things existed in various ways prior to that point but OD&D and the model T changed perceptions of a large number of people.  But now Ford is just another car company.  D&D still has market dominance comparable to Ford in the 30s. In the future, D&D will probably be more of a slight leader and less of a super market force.

I really have no problem with D&D being labeled neaderthal.  Neaderthals are depicted in the popular media as big stupid guys who spend a lot of time in caves.  They go around hitting things with clubs.  The magic man of the group dresses funny.  That's D&D.

Until recently, I would have said D&D was the gateway through which most gamers enter the hobby.

The new gateway is called World of Warcraft. It seems pretty obvious.

D&D gets credit for being fun as a game first. It isn't big on moralizing or hand-wringing or tackling issues, but then again, none of that is really worth doing anyway.

D&D also does something cool, that not too many other games do: it lets players sorta build up their own kingdoms. At high level you build a stronghold, maybe enchant some stuff, maybe do some crafting. This 'entity construction for it's own sake' is as important a point of play as the commodities trading is for early versions of Traveller.

D&D, AD&D, and RC I give credit to for basically getting a large number of people into playing RPGs. IMO, they also do a better job of getting the feel of adventure. Now, I have been warming up to 3.5 over the last year but it just doesn't seem to give me the adventuring hero feel. It might just be me but the mechanics of the game overshadow the feel of the game. IMO 3.5 is to AD&D what NWoD is OWoD. The feel just isn't there.  OTOH, I think D20Modern is outstanding and superior to D&D as a whole.

I will give 3.5 credit also that it does have easily the most players and thus brings in more new RPGers than any other games do. That it is a huge thing. How can someone hate a game that brings them new players to pithc their game to?

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe new gateway is called World of Warcraft. It seems pretty obvious.

Really? It's been a while since I looked for new players, but the WoW crowd doesn't strike me as ideal candidates. While there's a lot of P&P gamers that play online, too, not anyone playing MMORPG has that much interest in gathering 'round a table and play without advanced technological gimmicks.

This didn't happen with Ultima Online, it didn't happen with Everquest and both those games have a _way_ bigger role-playing aspect than WoW -- which is mostly Diablo III, and has much more common ground with first-person shooters than even old gold-box AD&D games...

I've played with some guys one of my players knows from WoW, and it's been a rather enlightening experience. WoW is _very_ structured play, and most tabletop gaming doesn't run that same way. Yes, from reading some other boards I gather that some D&D 3E rounds play in that alley, but then I'd say that they are crossing out of normal RPG grounds and enter all the way back into tabletop war-gaming.

Yeah, WoW is essentially a squad-based tactical wargame.  The whole point of the game is to build a team with the right tactical balance and then put oneself through increasingly demanding tactical encounters.

Roleplaying simply doesn't enter into it.

QuoteReally? It's been a while since I looked for new players, but the WoW crowd doesn't strike me as ideal candidates. While there's a lot of P&P gamers that play online, too, not anyone playing MMORPG has that much interest in gathering 'round a table and play without advanced technological gimmicks.

Yes, Really! I truly believe that those guys (and girls) are gamers. I further posit that the extent that those folks can be lured into trying tabletop games will be the extent to which tabletop gaming survives and grows at all.

I think in general, WoW is such an uber successful game because it gives people what they want.

What people seem to enjoy:

they like to explore.
they like to hang out and talk (perhaps not often in character).
they like to make stuff (crafting)
they like to collect items and build characters
they like to fight stuff, especially a wide variety of interesting stuff
they like to strategize using their abilities
they like classes, races, and levels
They like to level up.
they can handle hit points and spells.
they like quests of all sorts
they like fantasy

Are they big 'roleplayers' as in 'is there a lot of talking in character'? I would say no. But I think that has to do with it being such a large dynamic- it's hard to be a roleplayer in public. But I've been to guild rituals that were all in character and I can tell that people do it.

As for the gimmick stuff- I think tabletop is more visual and more imaginative. I think we can beat the computer on pure color just using our unlimited imaginations.

D&D introduced the method of roleplay to the realm of pastimes.
D&D created the Adventure Roleplaying Hobby.

D&D is more creative than anything you could ever make.
D&D is more successful than anything you will ever make.

Those of us who have no problem with those two statements appreciate D&D.  Those who have a problem with those two statements despise D&D.

There's evolution, but D&D itself has evolved more than any other game. And many other games supposed "evolutions" were actually dead-ends, in some cases dead ends that would lead to extinction should they be followed (ie. story-based gaming, and GNS-based Forge-style "indie" games).

RPGPundit

Wow, there are compliments in here, but I'd say most of them are back-handed.

Let's break it down...

Quote from: Dominus NoxOk, dumping on D&D is so chic with people who aren't into it, and I'm not a big fhan of it myself, but I think it's getting more abuse and less respect than it really deserves.

So in my role as a certified Amanojaku(Japanese term that essentially means devil's advocate) I have to point out that D&D deserves a lot of credit.

Intro... So far, kind of good.  Apart from the weirdass Japanese thing.  WTF?

QuoteIt may not have singlehandedly created the RPG market, and traveller would have come along without it, but it did really become the first star of the field,

"It really didn't do anything apart from get really popular"

Quoteit introduced the majority of gamers to the concept of role playing

OK, genuine compliment here.

Quoteand it served as a lightning rod for anti-gamers, allowing other games to remain unmolested byu the jack Chicks of the world.

"It took all the heat, so other, better games could just keep trucking a long."

QuotePlus it inspired a lot of people to look at it and say "Hmmm, good idea, this role playing, but I think I can do better..." which lead to a lot of better games being written.

"It was popular, but it sucked badly enough that a lot of other games - which are actually good - got written."

QuoteYeah, D&D has it's warts and sordid history, but it did a lot for gaming and deserves some respect.

okay...

Quoteit's kind of like the homo habilis that modern gaming evolved from, so have a little respect for it as gamers.

"It's a primitive, evolutionary dead-end, useful for historical value only."

-O

Love is a many splendored thing, dude. Is good to see someone who loves a game. I also think that you greatly underestimate the creativity of people around, but hey, nobody forces you to leave your cave. I'm sure that there was people that said that the railways were the utmost perfection in land travels, and would never be bested. Shine on, you crazy diamond.

About the evolution of D&D... well, you owe me a new keyboard, Pundit. That's good for a laugh.

No basic conception in the game has changed in more than 30 years (and that's good, of course, as it makes it recognizable as D&D). They have needed 25 years and a great team of designers to decide that the game could use some... skills. They needed 25 years to incorporate Virtues /Merits /whatever you can call the Feats, while many other games have been doing that for decades. The spell and magic system has changed very little. There are no mechanics that allow motivations, personality or any desire of the PCs to input into the game.

Man, your very own Settembrini said that D&D 3.0 is a lot like the RC! And that's cool, as RC is a superb design. But there's no evolution in there.

I think that the reasons of the success of D&D are others than it being the most evolved system out there .

Quote from: RPGPunditD&D is more creative than anything you could ever make.
D&D is more successful than anything you will ever make.

Those of us who have no problem with those two statements appreciate D&D.  Those who have a problem with those two statements despise D&D.

There's evolution, but D&D itself has evolved more than any other game. And many other games supposed "evolutions" were actually dead-ends, in some cases dead ends that would lead to extinction should they be followed (ie. story-based gaming, and GNS-based Forge-style "indie" games).

RPGPundit