Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI think it's as much not an RPG as the likes of My Life With Master.

By the way, I happened to learn earlier today that the local library has ordered copies of My Life With Master, Dust Devils, and The Shadow of Yesterday (the Finnish translations of those games, that is). Interestingly, they've never had D&D in their selection: Ars Magica and Pendragon and RuneQuest and MERP, yes, but not D&D.

Quote from: obrynI um.... disagree completely.  I've been playing (usually gamemastering) various iterations of (A)D&D since the mid-Eighties, still have my copies of D123 & T1-4, Keep on the Borderlands, etc. and generally love old-style adventures.  Converting them to 3.x on the fly is not as trivial as you might want to think.

In addition to worrying about NPC stats (which are hugely different in 3.x), the challenges of various encounters are way out of whack.

Converting isn't impossible by any means, and it's less work than creating that much detail from scratch, but to say it's easy ... well, I'd just call that wrong.

-O

I may have to test this. On the one hand, I suspect you are right, but I want to test it anyhow. I have Palace of the Silver Princess from the Basic D&D experiment I did last weekend. I could re-run it with 3.5.

I'm thinking it might not be too different now- they fought goblins, skeletons, zombies. They disarmed some traps, and explored some stuff. They roleplayed with a ghost. I'd just open up the MM and have them fight goblins, skeletons and zombies.. much of the rest of the activity would likely be the same. The only thing I'd have to convert would be the traps, and possibly the ghost. (In the basic module, the ghost is an unstatted plot element that cannot be fought or messed with too much, but in 3.5 the players could use bluffs or diplomacy or what have you against her). The method of roleplay I suspect would be the same.

But I'll do the experiment anyhow.

Quote from: GrimGentBy the way, I happened to learn earlier today that the local library has ordered copies of My Life With Master, Dust Devils, and The Shadow of Yesterday (the Finnish translations of those games, that is). Interestingly, they've never had D&D in their selection: Ars Magica and Pendragon and RuneQuest and MERP, yes, but not D&D.

Which layer of the Nine Hells do you live on?

That is interesting.  MLWM I can kind of understand because to me it feels like a board-less beer and pretzels game.  You don't really need to know much about gaming to play it and there is a clear winner.

I have to echo the cry of "bullshit" when it comes to Settembrini's claim that all the editions of D&D are pretty much exchangeable when it comes to stat-blocks.  I ran AD&D for ages and am still familiar with the rules but I can't make any sense of D&D 3rd edition.

If you were really familiar with all the editions you could probably go "a5HD monster with these powers is pretty much the same thing as X, Y and Z" but that's because you're familiar enough to do the conversion in your head... it's not about the compatibility of the game itself.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWhich layer of the Nine Hells do you live on?

A cold and dark one, according to the common stereotype.

That library does have a fair number of RPGs available, though: Call of Cthulhu, Rolemaster, Dark Conspiracy, Millennium's Edge, Twilight 2000, Cyberpunk...

Quote from: Abyssal MawI may have to test this. On the one hand, I suspect you are right, but I want to test it anyhow. I have Palace of the Silver Princess from the Basic D&D experiment I did last weekend. I could re-run it with 3.5.

I'm thinking it might not be too different now- they fought goblins, skeletons, zombies. They disarmed some traps, and explored some stuff. They roleplayed with a ghost. I'd just open up the MM and have them fight goblins, skeletons and zombies.. much of the rest of the activity would likely be the same. The only thing I'd have to convert would be the traps, and possibly the ghost. (In the basic module, the ghost is an unstatted plot element that cannot be fought or messed with too much, but in 3.5 the players could use bluffs or diplomacy or what have you against her). The method of roleplay I suspect would be the same.

But I'll do the experiment anyhow.

I think Palace of the Silver Princess would probably convert quite easily if you screwed around and made up stats for the Decapus or whatever he's called.  IIRC, that's mostly a maps-and-monsters module...  The Monster Manual should do just fine.  As others mentioned, it's only the classed opponents that get tricky.  (This is why I am fearful of every trying to run D123 under 3e rules...)

-O

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI don't think it's laughable, and I find the assertion that you can't run the likes of G1-3 off the shelf in 3e dubious myself.

Especially beause I've seen it done. That EXACT module, in fact.(Does Leopold or one of his alts hang 'round here anymore? He did it at GenCon a few years back.)

I also have converted Undermoutain, D1-3, and Isle of Dread on the fly.

Okay, I was engaging in a bit of hyperbole.  

I can see how one can either: (a.) run a 'monster-heavy' AD&D module with a copy of the 3e MM (assuming that there are no monsters in that module that have not been converted to 3e) 'on the fly'; or (b.) be so familiar with both rule systems to be able to do this (such mastery is rare).

Of course, given the different power levels of different monsters in different editions of D&D, one would have to be careful.

My main disagreement with Settembrini was his claim that D&D remains 'essentially the same game'.

Quote from: SettembriniPoint one: I have actually run Slavelords directly. It is possible.

Point two: Even if you would change all the stats, the actual adventure, the mode of play, the stuff you do, does not change.

So if I pull the 'Slavelords' off my shelf, convert all the stats to GURPS, and run it as a fantasy adventure with a dwarven fighter, human priest, halfling thief, and elven wizard, is GURPS essentially the same game as 1e AD&D?
:stick:

QuoteSo if I pull the 'Slavelords' off my shelf, convert all the stats to GURPS, and run it as a fantasy adventure with a dwarven fighter, human priest, halfling thief, and elven wizard, is GURPS essentially the same game as 1e AD&D?

No, it would be a weak emulation, cause GURPS doesn't have the same magic items and monsters and classes. But former incarnations of D&D have.

QuoteSettembrini's claim that all the editions of D&D are pretty much exchangeable when it comes to stat-blocks.

I never said that. I said the game is the same, not the rules. You do the stuff you did in the olden days. Just with sophisticated rules.

Quote from: AkrasiaSo if I pull the 'Slavelords' off my shelf, convert all the stats to GURPS, and run it as a fantasy adventure with a dwarven fighter, human priest, halfling thief, and elven wizard, is GURPS essentially the same game as 1e AD&D?
:stick:

This is a good question. I suspect what people do in a game (talking in character, getting into battles, etc) is much the same across many RPGs -- and that in itself should invalidate the lion's share of RPG fandom wank criticism.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThis is a good question. I suspect what people do in a game (talking in character, getting into battles, etc) is much the same across many RPGs -- and that in itself should invalidate the lion's share of RPG fandom wank criticism.

  It also invalidates Settembrini's claims because it reduces them to the banal and vacuous truism "Well... it's all roleplaying isn't it?"  in fact, if that's true then it means that there's no point in choosing one RPG over another as they're all essentially the same.

  So the rules light/rules heavy thing would be a distinction without a difference.

Quote from: SettembriniNo, it would be a weak emulation, cause GURPS doesn't have the same magic items and monsters and classes. But former incarnations of D&D have.

This is a non-starter.   I'm sure that you could construct GURPS 'templates' to correspond to D&D classes, and items that have the properties of 'magic items'.  It shouldn't be too hard to come up with GURPS versions of monsters as well.

But consider a system like Rolemeaster or HARP, which does have classes and magic items.  If I convert 'Slaverlords' to HARP, does HARP thereby become a version of D&D?

Quote from: AkrasiaThis is a non-starter.   I'm sure that you could construct GURPS 'templates' to correspond to D&D classes, and items that have the properties of 'magic items'.  It shouldn't be too hard to come up with GURPS versions of monsters as well.

You could construct them, but this is the same sort of effort that you decry when discussing statting out templated creatures for the game -- it's not nearly as straightforward as simply pulling a stock creature or magic item out of the book. Further, as there are some fundamental differences in the underlying rules assumptions between D&D GURPS, pertaining to things like character power vs. creature power, lethality, etc., I would expect the experience to be very different, moreso than I would 1e vs. 3e.


I should note, in all fairness, that there are some differences that DID make a fundamental approach when I converted isle of dread as compared to the Expert set... having skills not be class specific and not limiting climbing the theives changed the possible strategy. While different, I don't consider this a bad thing.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt also invalidates Settembrini's claims because it reduces them to the banal and vacuous truism "Well... it's all roleplaying isn't it?"  in fact, if that's true then it means that there's no point in choosing one RPG over another as they're all essentially the same.

  So the rules light/rules heavy thing would be a distinction without a difference.

Beyond personal preferences, 'what this game is about', and comfort zones of mechanics- they are all pretty much the same. In other words, as long as you can find people to play, the mechanics are reliable and the setting elements are agreeable, the system does not matter.

Vacuous and banal though it may be!

People don't game because they like to roll dice in new ways, they get together to do all of that other stuff.