Ok, dumping on D&D is so chic with people who aren't into it, and I'm not a big fhan of it myself, but I think it's getting more abuse and less respect than it really deserves.

So in my role as a certified Amanojaku(Japanese term that essentially means devil's advocate) I have to point out that D&D deserves a lot of credit. It may not have singlehandedly created the RPG market, and traveller would have come along without it, but it did really become the first star of the field, it introduced the majority of gamers to the concept of role playing and it served as a lightning rod for anti-gamers, allowing other games to remain unmolested byu the jack Chicks of the world.

Plus it inspired a lot of people to look at it and say "Hmmm, good idea, this role playing, but I think I can do better..." which lead to a lot of better games being written.

Yeah, D&D has it's warts and sordid history, but it did a lot for gaming and deserves some respect. it's kind of like the homo habilis that modern gaming evolved from, so have a little respect for it as gamers.

Man, I got nothin' but respect and love for the game.

The game.  Maybe not the systems...but the game.  Even now that Iron Gauntlets and I are in love, I'm dressing it up to look like D&D, because damnit I LOVE BOG-STANDARD FANTASY.

Umn...the whole dressing up IG thing.  Er...look, can we just get my drift and not infer too much...?  Please?

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Man, I got nothin' but respect and love for the game.

The game.  Maybe not the systems...but the game.  Even now that Iron Gauntlets and I are in love, I'm dressing it up to look like D&D, because damnit I LOVE BOG-STANDARD FANTASY.

Umn...the whole dressing up IG thing.  Er...look, can we just get my drift and not infer too much...?  Please?

's OK, dude. I try not to judge other gamers much.

I don't think it's fair to compare it to homo habilis, it's more of a neanderthal really from my point of view.  Perfectly respectable intelligent species but it's just not the kind of thing that I am

That's at least partly because I think bog-standard fantasy makes baby Jesus cry.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI don't think it's fair to compare it to homo habilis, it's more of a neanderthal really from my point of view.  

Successful in its day, but surpassed by better adapted species?  Sounds about right to me.

This thread will not end well.
Just to keep misunderstandings at a minimum:

3.5 is a Neandertaler?

QuoteSuccessful in its day, but surpassed by better adapted species?

That's what you are saying?
Or talking about OD&D?

Quote from: SettembriniThis thread will not end well.
Just to keep misunderstandings at a minimum:

3.5 is a Neandertaler?  
That's what you are saying?
Or talking about OD&D?

Dude, it's a joke.  I wouldn't take it too seriously.

I don't like 3.5, but I regard it as a very well designed system and have said so many times.  I think ADnD was complete shite, I think RC is rather good.  My views change according to the edition.

That said, I have no personal interest in illogical trad fantasy, which is what most published DnD stuff looks like to me.  It doesn't have to be run that way, but tends to be.

I do think there are far better designed systems about though than the various iterations of DnD, save maybe 3.5 which I think is at the top of its game for a style of play I have no interest in, I think that brand familiarity is a huge part of its success.

Quote from: Settembrini3.5 is a Neandertaler?  That's what you are saying? Or talking about OD&D?

I suppose tehy're talking about OD&D. Which could be quite true. Now, D&D 3.5 is an state-of-the-art of design.

Actually I just meant that my tastes have evolved away from that kind of play.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalActually I just meant that my tastes have evolved away from that kind of play.

Interesting choice of words.

Quote from: BagpussInteresting choice of words.

Evolution doesn't imply progress, simply change.

What's interesting about it?  there's no such thing as being more or less evolved so it's not a value judgement.  It's just a reflection of the fact that over time my personality has shifted as have my creative interests and my influences.

The D&D meme would find it very hard going to implant itself in my mind.  Even when I make a conscious effort to get excited about old school gaming or tactical play it generally withers after a few days once the reality of the situation hits home and I remember how much I hate coming up with combat set-pieces.

Quote from: BalbinusEvolution doesn't imply progress, simply change.

Actually it does.

While it means change most often into a more complex or better form, or it can mean development. Development also implies improvement.

While techically in biology it doesn't mean one thing is better than another, outside of the field it has taken on that implication.

Still if that wasn't your intent I'll let it drop.

Quote from: BagpussActually it does.

While it means change most often into a more complex or better form, or it can mean development. Development also implies improvement.

While techically in biology it doesn't mean one thing is better than another, outside of the field it has taken on that implication.

I strongly disagree. When I studied Developmenta Psychology, the first notion my teachers destroyed was just that.

As humans develop, we pass from babies to child to adolescent to adults... and we get elder and die. Hardly an improvement, but is development nonetheless.

Quote from: BagpussActually it does.

While it means change most often into a more complex or better form, or it can mean development. Development also implies improvement.

It doesn't.

Evolution is the process of random changes being selected for by environmental pressures, leading over time to adaptational changes.  It does not have an implicit value, and the term better is meaningless save in the context of better adapted to prevailing environmental conditions (which may of course change, and often do).

I appreciate people tend to use it loosely as if there were some purpose or as if evolution was a process of development, but it isn't, it is a process of adaptation through selection of beneficial traits by environmental pressure.  If environmental conditions changed so as to no longer reward sentience, evolutionary pressures would be against sentience, that does not mean becoming stupider is progress any more than becoming smarter was.  It simply is what it is, value neutral.

The satirical novel Galapagos illustrates the point rather well IMO, for a non-academic treatment.