After the WotC fiascos, many companies decided to develop their own in-house alternative D&D 5e rulesets that are based on the skeleton of D&D 5e.  I recently picked up Tales of the Valiant by Kobold Press, formerly known as Project Black Flag, but haven't gotten to read it yet.

I am curious what alternative 5e rulesets have my fellow gamers looked at out there and/or ran or played and what ones you think are best.  I am also going to include a few OSR adjacent rulesets that interest me as viable alternatives to D&D 5e to get your thoughts as well.

Tales of the Valiant
Level Up: Advanced 5th. Edition
Nimble
13th. Age 2e
Cubicle 7 D20 (C7D20)
Pathfinder 2e

Dragonbane

Castles & Crusades
Dungeon Crawl Classics
Hyperborea 3e
Worlds Without Number
Old School Essentials

Shadowdark

My table likes both 5e and old school systems, and Shadowdark is a really nice mix of both.  Its pretty much our go-to system right now.

Quote from: Batjon on July 26, 2024, 05:59:00 AMLevel Up: Advanced 5th. Edition
Pathfinder 2e

Dungeon Crawl Classics
Worlds Without Number
Old School Essentials

For me:

• 5e still works fine at my table, if I limit it, particularly if I also houserule it heavily. I'm chuffed with how Beyond-the-Wall semi-random character building / lifepaths rewritten into 5e gave my current party of players choice of race, class, and homeland, and only limited ability to choose beyond that. Last campaign had slow resting; this one doesn't; we'll see how that goes.
• Level Up: A5E - I own it and it feels like a hard no. The sample adventure was a contrived, poorly-written railroad.
• Pathfinder 2e - hard no, I want to get away from that kind of long-term character progression planning and the kitchen-sink anachronistic worldbuilding. Bring simple characters into a complex world and don't get attached to your plans for their life stories before their lives even start.
• DCC - I got rid of my hardcopy in a move; I found it 'cool' but not meeting the needs of any group I'm likely to be able to get to the table or world I'm keen to explore. If it vibes, run with it.
• Hyperborea - I got rid of my hardcopy of 1e in a move; again 'cool', in theory I love the setting, but the ruleset is not to my taste. I'm not keen to go back to 1e even if I still have the original DMG on my shelf. (This has always left me wondering about running Primeval Thule, which I think S'mon does?)
• WWN - I could see running or playing this but I'd rather lean towards either 5e or OSE/ACKS unless I had a reason. I briefly participated in a play-by-post but would have needed to spend more quality time with it to internalise the rules.
• OSE - I'd rather run ACKS 1 for both rules & setting (I'm really uncertain about ACKS 2) but most of my playerbase would be turned off if they became aware of the politics & controversies, so this can serve quite nicely for OSR games.

Quote from: Crusader X on July 26, 2024, 06:33:31 AMShadowdark

My table likes both 5e and old school systems, and Shadowdark is a really nice mix of both.  Its pretty much our go-to system right now.

Is Shadowdark completely built for dungeon crawls, or can you do outdoor adventuring all types of fantasy with it?

Quote from: Naburimannu on July 26, 2024, 06:44:06 AM

Quote from: Batjon on July 26, 2024, 05:59:00 AMLevel Up: Advanced 5th. Edition
Pathfinder 2e

Dungeon Crawl Classics
Worlds Without Number
Old School Essentials

Some good feedback here, thanks!

I wasn't aware of any overt political leanings with OSE or controversies.

For me:

• 5e still works fine at my table, if I limit it, particularly if I also houserule it heavily. I'm chuffed with how Beyond-the-Wall semi-random character building / lifepaths rewritten into 5e gave my current party of players choice of race, class, and homeland, and only limited ability to choose beyond that. Last campaign had slow resting; this one doesn't; we'll see how that goes.
• Level Up: A5E - I own it and it feels like a hard no. The sample adventure was a contrived, poorly-written railroad.
• Pathfinder 2e - hard no, I want to get away from that kind of long-term character progression planning and the kitchen-sink anachronistic worldbuilding. Bring simple characters into a complex world and don't get attached to your plans for their life stories before their lives even start.
• DCC - I got rid of my hardcopy in a move; I found it 'cool' but not meeting the needs of any group I'm likely to be able to get to the table or world I'm keen to explore. If it vibes, run with it.
• Hyperborea - I got rid of my hardcopy of 1e in a move; again 'cool', in theory I love the setting, but the ruleset is not to my taste. I'm not keen to go back to 1e even if I still have the original DMG on my shelf. (This has always left me wondering about running Primeval Thule, which I think S'mon does?)
• WWN - I could see running or playing this but I'd rather lean towards either 5e or OSE/ACKS unless I had a reason. I briefly participated in a play-by-post but would have needed to spend more quality time with it to internalise the rules.
• OSE - I'd rather run ACKS 1 for both rules & setting (I'm really uncertain about ACKS 2) but most of my playerbase would be turned off if they became aware of the politics & controversies, so this can serve quite nicely for OSR games.

The only one of these I have a lot of time in is Hyperborea (2nd edition, but almost nothing changed for 3rd). Extremely solid game. The only real issue with it is that it's very much meant for being run in it's own setting. It's not that you couldn't run something else with it, but you'd have to do a lot of re-flavoring.

I've played a bit of Stars Without Number, and it seemed to run well. I do very much appreciate the effort involved in mixing the OSR base with the Traveller/Cepheus style skill resolution. Looked at Worlds Without Number, but I really don't like games where weapons attacks are guaranteed to do damage.

I use a lot of DCC modules for my OSR games, but I will probably never run Dungeon Call Classics itself. Wacky dice are a deal breaker for me.

The best D&D alternative as always is Dragon Warriors, but I'd say it's more of an old school D&D alternative than a 5e one. If you want an alternative to run the same kind of high-magic, high power modern fantasy that 5e does, but under better rules, I think your best bet is the "Pathfinder for Savage Worlds" rules.

I picked up Tales of the Valiant and am liking what I see there. I was hoping to mine it for some house rule ideas, but I may try to get my group to just switch over. It's like 5E but they have adjusted a few things to make it its own game. For example, the battle magic Wizard subclass seems to combine evoker and abjurer so that a Wizard can sculpt and build a magic armor around self. (I've hardly ever found anyone who wants to play an abjurer, so pulling some of those abilities into another subclass seems like a good move to me. If you like the abjurer then it probably loses some of its advantages.) The other Wizard subclass is a cantrip adept, and I love to play Wizards with a lot of cantrips so this seems to fit the style of play that I have anyway. I haven't looked at the entire Player's Handbook, but what I have seen so far I like a lot more than WotC 5E.

Quote from: Batjon on July 26, 2024, 07:23:03 AM

Quote from: Naburimannu on July 26, 2024, 06:44:06 AM

Quote from: Batjon on July 26, 2024, 05:59:00 AMLevel Up: Advanced 5th. Edition
Pathfinder 2e

Dungeon Crawl Classics
Worlds Without Number
Old School Essentials

Some good feedback here, thanks!

I wasn't aware of any overt political leanings with OSE or controversies.

For me:

• 5e still works fine at my table, if I limit it, particularly if I also houserule it heavily. I'm chuffed with how Beyond-the-Wall semi-random character building / lifepaths rewritten into 5e gave my current party of players choice of race, class, and homeland, and only limited ability to choose beyond that. Last campaign had slow resting; this one doesn't; we'll see how that goes.
• Level Up: A5E - I own it and it feels like a hard no. The sample adventure was a contrived, poorly-written railroad.
• Pathfinder 2e - hard no, I want to get away from that kind of long-term character progression planning and the kitchen-sink anachronistic worldbuilding. Bring simple characters into a complex world and don't get attached to your plans for their life stories before their lives even start.
• DCC - I got rid of my hardcopy in a move; I found it 'cool' but not meeting the needs of any group I'm likely to be able to get to the table or world I'm keen to explore. If it vibes, run with it.
• Hyperborea - I got rid of my hardcopy of 1e in a move; again 'cool', in theory I love the setting, but the ruleset is not to my taste. I'm not keen to go back to 1e even if I still have the original DMG on my shelf. (This has always left me wondering about running Primeval Thule, which I think S'mon does?)
• WWN - I could see running or playing this but I'd rather lean towards either 5e or OSE/ACKS unless I had a reason. I briefly participated in a play-by-post but would have needed to spend more quality time with it to internalise the rules.
• OSE - I'd rather run ACKS 1 for both rules & setting (I'm really uncertain about ACKS 2) but most of my playerbase would be turned off if they became aware of the politics & controversies, so this can serve quite nicely for OSR games.

I don't think he meant that toward OSE.  I think he was talking about ACKS 1 & 2, and their creator.  I am not throwing shade at either.  I'm just trying to help clarify.

None.

Most either bloat the rules with needless fiddly bits.

Or needless new classes instead of subclasses or backgrounds. Do we really need a damn Cheff class? No.

Or make the game even more complex trying to fix something that was not broken.

I love and run OSE and while I an still running some 5e, I am eventually going to move to run OSE for my fantasy needs.

It's the B/X system cleaned up and clarified, and easy to learn.

There is a lot of material out there and all of the OLD b/x adventures work with it so there are mountains of material out there for cheap (or free).

Quote from: Batjon on July 26, 2024, 07:20:08 AM

Quote from: Crusader X on July 26, 2024, 06:33:31 AMShadowdark

My table likes both 5e and old school systems, and Shadowdark is a really nice mix of both.  Its pretty much our go-to system right now.

Is Shadowdark completely built for dungeon crawls, or can you do outdoor adventuring all types of fantasy with it?

I would say the primary focus is on dungeon crawls, but the rules don't exclusively focus on them.  The main rulebook does have a section on overland travel, as well as rules for the creation of overland hex maps and settlements.  And there are multiple outdoor random encounter tables for different types of outdoor terrain in the book as well.

Kelsey has also said that she's working on expanded wilderness rules, and rules for city-based adventures.  I believe she's going to release a wilderness-based Shadowdark zine, a city-based Shadowdark zine etc.  She definitely wants to keep creating expanded content for the game.

Quote from: Batjon on July 26, 2024, 07:20:08 AM

Quote from: Crusader X on July 26, 2024, 06:33:31 AMShadowdark

My table likes both 5e and old school systems, and Shadowdark is a really nice mix of both.  Its pretty much our go-to system right now.

Is Shadowdark completely built for dungeon crawls, or can you do outdoor adventuring all types of fantasy with it?

There is a lot of focus on DCs but you can do anything with it to be fair (I personally don't like DCs at all). Great system as far as I'm concerned.

There was a thread on "Tales of Argosa" just a while ago:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/tales-of-argosa-looks-kind-of-promising/

I consider everything to be an alternative to D&D 5e.  That is how dominant D&D is in this hobby.

However, if I had to pick just one game to replace 5e, then its a really tough choice.  I have a couple of games I like.  In my case I have never been a D&D player.  I'm not a hipster who bucks the trend and acts superior because of that.  I just happened to have been one of those guys who got an alternative game first, then stuck to it. 

In this case, Palladium Fantasy 1st edition is the game I would suggest. 

It uses a more logical combat system of 1D20 Strike vs 1D20 Parry, defender wins ties.  As you go up in level, your hit points go up a tiny bit.  In reality it is your Strike and Parry skill numbers that get better, not your toughness. That just makes more sense to me.

Armor is both a savings throw and extra hit points.  The "throw" part is a bit of a misnomer, because various armor have a fixed armor rating of 9 to 17 or so depending on how crummy/excellent your armor is.  Then the armor has its own hit points.  After 50% and 33% of that armor HP is gone (called SDC in Palladium), the armor rating also goes down by 2 after each of those.

Spell casting is spells per day, even if those are all the same spell over and over.  The 2E game switches to magic energy points, but I still think the old spells per day system is fine.

What I also love is that the game has more logical classes.  You're not a fighter.  You can be a mercenary, a soldier, an archer, a knight, a paladin (slightly better knight with stricter requirements, and only ever gets one mystic ability: extra damage to supernatural evil), a thief, or an assassin.  Those are all separate classes.

Palladium 1E is a great alternative to D&D.  Also, all the talk about Palladium rules being janky at times is the newer games set in time and places that use guns.  Fantasy, especially 1E isn't like that.  It is pretty easy to play.

If you want a Better version of 5e, then go with Tales of the Valiant. We had a thread here on it a week ago and I shared some info on a few of the class differences (Like Warlock being a 4 slot Caster). It's 5e but improved with better rules, options and Monsters that are actually fun.

If you want a tactical game with tons of support that's entirely free online go with Pathfinder 2e. It's a mathematically precise system, combat requires real teamwork and smart play, and there's a ton of really cool content. Plus, like I said, all of it is free on the Archives of Neythest.

Personally, I like ToV but I've begun to lean away from 5e style of play and more into Pathfinder 2e because it's a more challenging game for players while also having a ton of cool options at every single level.