DCC combat too absurd?

Simlasa · June 22, 2017, 09:51:16 PM

Quote from: DavetheLost;970826Interesting math fact. In DCC combat if you roll an Attack Die larger than a d20 your chance of scoring an automatic hit goes down!

Warriors' Mighty Deed dice goes up as well though... meaning that at higher levels they're more likely to pull off combat stunts as well as adding that dice result to their attack and damage.
I'm not sure how that all balances out though...

Larsdangly · June 23, 2017, 10:44:12 AM

Quote from: DavetheLost;970826Interesting math fact. In DCC combat if you roll an Attack Die larger than a d20 your chance of scoring an automatic hit goes down! The highest number possible on Attack Dice of d20 and larger is always the highest number on the die... So a d20 will score an automatic hit 1 in 20, a d24 will score 1 in 24, and a d30 will score an automatic hit only 1 time in 30.

Granted a fighter probably has a greater chance of scoring a critical because all they need to do is beat their critical threat range, and they will probably be scoring high enough to hit their for anyway at 24 or 30, but against those rare high armor class foes their chances of an automatic hit decrease as the dice get "better".

This is correct, and one of those almost perfectly stupid rules that make me wonder whether some game designers use their skulls to store leftover oatmeal. Come on, people, we should be better than this after 43 years of roleplaying games!

Willie the Duck · June 23, 2017, 11:55:25 AM

Quote from: Larsdangly;970905This is correct, and one of those almost perfectly stupid rules that make me wonder whether some game designers use their skulls to store leftover oatmeal. Come on, people, we should be better than this after 43 years of roleplaying games!

And yet, although the d24 or d30 makes less likely a certain hit, it also allows you to roll 21-24 or 21-30 on your to-hit roll, right? So the movement from d20 to d24 or d24 to d30 has both positives and negatives? Is that oatmeal-headed stupidity or the game working exactly as intended?

Baulderstone · June 23, 2017, 12:34:10 PM

Quote from: Willie the Duck;970925And yet, although the d24 or d30 makes less likely a certain hit, it also allows you to roll 21-24 or 21-30 on your to-hit roll, right? So the movement from d20 to d24 or d24 to d30 has both positives and negatives? Is that oatmeal-headed stupidity or the game working exactly as intended?

My rationalization is that an automatic hit from the highest number on the die reflects dumb luck. As your combat die increases, you are more likely to hit based on skill and rely less on luck.

If a high-level warrior is fighting something with enormous AC and wants to rely on reckless luck, they can always choose to roll a d20 if they genuinely feel that will improve their chances. I'm guessing fights where this is actually the case will be very rare.

AsenRG · June 23, 2017, 03:16:46 PM

Quote from: Incantatar;9706181. I just did the math on fumbles and a lvl 1 fighter in banded mail or plate with a two-handed weapon will kill himself every 164 swings, due to combined self inflicted damage.
This is assuming the average hp of 9 and average stats all around. (A flimsy fighter with 2hp and average stats will kill himself after 36 swings)

If a ruler is sending a bunch of heavy armored fighters to kill defenseless peasants and a bunch of lightly armored fighters, the lightly armored ones would return victorious and the armored ones would have all suicided themselves in the process.

I know the rule set isn't supposed to be simulationist but don't you think this is ridiculous?

Except no fighter ever perishes due to fumbles, because of a class skill.

Quote2. Doesn't it make combat a bit ludicrous when fighters use deeds in every single attack? They don't have any reason not to. The rules even say, if the player doesn't specify the deed his signature deed can be assumed.

First, the ridiculous notion is that a high-level fighter wouldn't do that every round.
Second, not even a high level Warrior achieves a Deed every time, and a first level one gets a Deed only a quarter of the time even against unarmoured rabble.

Simlasa · June 23, 2017, 03:37:09 PM

The Deeds in DCC are pretty much just the combat maneuvers of RQ6/Mythras and the Feats of D&D... but less codefied, more reliant on Player imagination. You use them whenever you can, which isn't on every attack.

AsenRG · June 23, 2017, 03:57:43 PM

Quote from: Simlasa;971004The Deeds in DCC are pretty much just the combat maneuvers of RQ6/Mythras and the Feats of D&D... but less codefied, more reliant on Player imagination. You use them whenever you can, which isn't on every attack.

Yes, that's exactly why I said it's ridiculous if a high-level Warrior doesn't get one of those on most successful attacks.

Edgewise · June 24, 2017, 12:23:31 AM

Quote from: Incantatar;9706181. I just did the math on fumbles and a lvl 1 fighter in banded mail or plate with a two-handed weapon will kill himself every 164 swings, due to combined self inflicted damage.
This is assuming the average hp of 9 and average stats all around. (A flimsy fighter with 2hp and average stats will kill himself after 36 swings)

As Baulderstone points out, this isn't strictly true, since warriors can negate fumbles with Luck.

Incidentally, Baulderstone, you must be the same guy from AVC and a couple other places, I think. You always seem to be on the money.

Quote from: Incantatar;970618I know the rule set isn't supposed to be simulationist but don't you think this is ridiculous?

Gonzo is, by definition, somewhat ridiculous.

Quote from: Incantatar;9706182. Doesn't it make combat a bit ludicrous when fighters use deeds in every single attack? They don't have any reason not to.

No - this is one of the things that makes DCC the best FRPG of all time. Let me put it to you this way: ever see Venture Bros? To me, the DCC warrior let's you play as Brock Samson. Here's Brock demonstrating a Mighty Deed:

(Note: advance to 45s - not supported in the embedded link)

[video=youtube_share;91-GfPYRvYs]https://youtu.be/91-GfPYRvYs?t=45s[/youtube]

Baulderstone · June 24, 2017, 01:45:31 AM

Quote from: Edgewise;971077As Baulderstone points out, this isn't strictly true, since warriors can negate fumbles with Luck.

Incidentally, Baulderstone, you must be the same guy from AVC and a couple other places, I think. You always seem to be on the money.

Thanks. That is indeed me.

QuoteGonzo is, by definition, somewhat ridiculous.

You make an excellent point here yourself.

Lynn · June 24, 2017, 02:07:53 AM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;970704"In a thirty minute Runequest battle (Chaosium) involving 6000 armored, experienced warriors using Great Axes, more than 150 men will decapitate themselves and another 600 will chop off their own arms or legs."

Try running that combat in 30 minutes with one character per player.

RPGPundit · June 26, 2017, 05:33:29 PM

I've been running a fortnightly DCC game for five years now, and not only has no one ever killed themselves with a fumble, but there's never even been a situation where a fighter has had to spend a luck point to save themselves from a fumble.