Quote from: Phillip;652686When they respond with wailing and gnashing of teeth, it will be only fair to replay their own quip: "Who came and confiscated your books?"

The funny part about this bit is all the crowing that was going on when 4E was still fully supported, from fans who were proud to announce that they didn't have to buy many books because they had DDI to fill thier needs.

When the plug on the electronic feed gets pulled, all those who lived by DDI will actually have thier "books" confiscated unless they purchase them.

Not to mention there are probably some 4E fans that won't actually keep playing thier favorite system without the electronic support. IMHO any tabletop rpg that is THAT reliant on software to play is made of fail.

Quote from: Phillip;652686The way WotC screwed up was by pitting people against each other in an emotionally charged zero-sum 'game' of fighting to claim the name of D&D. TSR published a wide variety of different games, enabling it to sell to people with different tastes at the same time.

If there were enough people who actually liked 4E for its own sake, not for the title on the cover of the books, then they could have bought it under another title without causing any ruckus among fans of the more familiar D&D -- which Hasbro could continue to sell!

It was purely a financial decision. WotC does not want to split the already small (and probably shrinking) D&D market. This isn't 1983, when TSR was growing by leaps and bounds and could support Top Secret, Gamma World, etc. The split between B/X D&D and AD&D is widely regarded today as a mistake for the company.

Quote from: Phillip;652686Instead, Paizo is the one profiting by filling the demand, while Wizards backpedals to try to find a winning product -

WotC clearly miscalculated the loyalty to 3.x D&D, and the ability of Paizo to support that market. But they have a business model where they rely on a lot of people switching to the latest edition of D&D just because it's the latest edition of D&D. And they're right to a point - a lot of people will play only the latest, supported edition of the game. And a lot of people will buy at least if the core books of the latest edition, even if they go back to an earlier favourite.

Quote from: Phillip;652686- which will probably leave 4E devotees in much worse straits than 3E fans.
When they respond with wailing and gnashing of teeth, it will be only fair to replay their own quip: "Who came and confiscated your books?"

It's impossible not to appreciate the ironic justice of the termination of 4E. Did the fans think it really couldn't happen to them?

My essentials:

Classes that include the core four
Races that cover traditional fantasy
Levels
d20 resolution mechanism
HP (though I'd prefer to rename them 'vitality' and integrate them with a wound system)
Magical healing (though not only magical healing)
Classic D&D monsters, such as ropers, mind flayers, oozes, umber hulks, etc.
Gridded combat is optional

I'd say everything that's in 1e, 2e AND 3e. All the things that can be found in all three editions constitute the essential core of D&D.

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;654642I'd say everything that's in 1e, 2e AND 3e. All the things that can be found in all three editions constitute the essential core of D&D.

RPGpundit

Psionics? Upteen prestigue classes? Daft treeman rangers with 3 arms? The Sha'ir? Wild Magic?

He means a logical AND.  In other words, only those concepts which exist in all three editions.  So classes and hit points, yes; those exist in 1e, 2e and 3E.  CR and ECL, no, because those only exist in 3E.

Quote from: daniel_ream;654647He means a logical AND.  In other words, only those concepts which exist in all three editions.  So classes and hit points, yes; those exist in 1e, 2e and 3E.  CR and ECL, no, because those only exist in 3E.

Okay that makes sense.

Leaves a bit stuck on ascending vs Descending AC (do we have no AC? ), ditto for Saves, Thaco, skills, proficiencies but its a reasonable answer.

Quote from: jibbajibba;654646Psionics? Upteen prestigue classes?

"Umpteen"? 782, actually!

Quote from: Premier;654673"Umpteen"? 782, actually!

Jesus.

Quote from: Benoist;654712Jesus.

There's a Jesus class, Christ....

Quote from: Premier;654673"Umpteen"? 782, actually!

If only they were all fleshed out classes and not there to cherrypick for uber  builds.

Quote from: Bill;654725If only they were all fleshed out classes and not there to cherrypick for uber  builds.

That is my only problem with Prestige Classes, indeed. It could be however, "easily" fixed, if GMs would take care to enforce the Roleplaying restrictions on those classes, as I feel they should have - those classes existed to denote people in special groups, that received some very specific training.

Quote from: Rincewind1;654797That is my only problem with Prestige Classes, indeed. It could be however, "easily" fixed, if GMs would take care to enforce the Roleplaying restrictions on those classes, as I feel they should have - those classes existed to denote people in special groups, that received some very specific training.

If only players chose prestige classes with roleplay as a goal.

If I was motivated enough; ie, running a 3X game, I would consider making prestige classes full classes from level one.

I don't dislike multiclassing at all, but I loathe cherrypicking levels for a 'build'

Quote from: RPGPundit;654642I'd say everything that's in 1e, 2e AND 3e. All the things that can be found in all three editions constitute the essential core of D&D.

RPGpundit

I'd say B/X, 1e, 2e and 3e.

Quote from: Rincewind1;654797That is my only problem with Prestige Classes, indeed. It could be however, "easily" fixed, if GMs would take care to enforce the Roleplaying restrictions on those classes, as I feel they should have - those classes existed to denote people in special groups, that received some very specific training.

Roleplaying restricts are no restriction.

If you are in a group that roleplays then every PC from the lowliest 9 Str fighter to the most divine Paladin comes with roleplay restrictions. Their character.
In this case if you want to play a Dwarven Hex-forger or some such the role play will be a reason you chose it because you like the idea of the class and the characters behind it.

If you are not in a group that roleplays then the restrictions are obviously meaningless.

So playing a paladin character with a normal fighter with no special powers, that is a challenge to be good and pure and honest and selfless without getting a magic pony, and healing fingers. there is a challenge. Now if you wanted to play that character all the extra powers you get are basically just extra power for no cost.

The same is true of every prestige class even the ones back from AD&D (Ranger, Paladin, Monk, Druid, Assasin).