Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeOr "Angels & Demons"?

100 points for anyone who catches the rather obscure reference.

A really crappy book by Dan Brown? Author of another really crappy, but oddly popular, book about a famous artist gone mad in the old history bit?

Where are me points?

Quote from: SpikeA really crappy book by Dan Brown? Author of another really crappy, but oddly popular, book about a famous artist gone mad in the old history bit?

Where are me points?

Oh. I forgot that this is the original title of the book that is named "Illuminati" in Germany. I even tried to read it but gave up on page ... 30 or so.

No, I had another reference in mind.

Hint: Two brothers, a directional microphone, and (steam?) tunnels...

Quote from: SpikeYou guys must play in radically different games than I ever did if the 'CHANGE OF THE COSMOLOGY" is an earthshattering event.

Seriously.

99% of all my gaming occured in what you lovingly call 'the prime Material Plane', and what my characters always just called 'here'.  If we encountered an elemental we didn't always, or even mostly, know if it was summoned or why, we just knew it had to die now, so we could take it's stuff.

I'm not even sure the homebrew setting I'm playing in now even connects to all that shit, and I KNOW Eberron doesn't use the core cosmology... though those damn charts they lay out are utter ass regardless.  Ooh look, a lot of bubbles and lines... pretty.... what's it all mean???

Maybe I haven't played enough high level shit. Maybe I should be more concerned with HOW the ethereal shifting abilities of certain monsters work, instead of just concerning myself with the mechanic of '50% of all 'hits' actually miss...'.

But y'know? I just don't give a damn. I'm not even sure that cosmology was in place when I started playing. The Abyss was some deep hell-pit where demons came from, and that was about it. Oh, and paladins could fight demons in hell and look badass about it.

But the exact relation of various planes to one another? NOT a 'core concept' of any D&D I've ever played.

Despite my overall dislike for what has come out about 4e, I have to agree with Spike that the cosmology of the world is less than unimportant for me - at least, in and of itself.  And boy am I tired of the WotC "previews" for this material.

Now, the other changes to the implied setting - Tieflings, Warlocks, free multi-classing, fighter magic powerz, etc - those I do hate with a passion and believe are basically killing off the D&D-ness of the game.

But then, I never liked 3e either, and hated the changes it made - so I will agree with Haffrung that 3e made plenty of changes to the implied setting as well.

Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeOr "Angels & Demons"?

100 points for anyone who catches the rather obscure reference.

Love and Rockets?

Quote from: AosLove and Rockets?

Does it feature "two brothers, a directional microphone, and (steam?) tunnels..."?

I am afraid, no. And while I am quite "into" comics, I have to admit that I never got access to Love and Rockets.

Ok, one more try and I'll give the solution...

Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeDoes it feature "two brothers, a directional microphone, and (steam?) tunnels..."?

I am afraid, no. And while I am quite "into" comics, I have to admit that I never got access to Love and Rockets.

Ok, one more try and I'll give the solution...

I meant Love and Rockets the band, which has a song entitled Angles and Demons on some album or other. I have no idea if the band members are brothers or not, nor am I hip to the type of microphone they used.

Quote from: jgantsNow, the other changes to the implied setting - Tieflings, Warlocks, free multi-classing, fighter magic powerz, etc - those I do hate with a passion and believe are basically killing off the D&D-ness of the game.

But then, I never liked 3e either, and hated the changes it made - so I will agree with Haffrung that 3e made plenty of changes to the implied setting as well.

The "fighter magic powerz" is probably the one that would be most edifficult to change. Fortunately for me (and I realize it's not for everyone) I dig what I've heard so far.

But the actual races and classes? I can easily tweak that. In fact, that's what I always did. Never had any Monk in my campaigns and we fitted a Cavalier class in 3e (homebrewed with the help of existing fighter, paladin and noble classes).

Not trying to change your mind. More sharing that what will make or break the deal for me is the way the system works (such as aforementioned figher powers). As well as spellcasting, combat and so on. If this stuff doesn't appeal to me, I'll have to pass. But if it's just stuff like a very few lame side classes, races or odd generic setting choices (like what's a demon/devil or how the gonzo stuff like planes operate) I can live with that.

Of course, even if they are minor details, I could see a point where if there are too many of them not to my liking, I wouldn't be interested anymore. But luckily, I'm not there yet personally. And as I always say, I reserve judgment until I learn more.

One thing I think most people can agree about 4e is that the way they have "revealed" 4e so far is terribly lame and can be summed up as:

"Oh, we're changing X but don't worry. It will be totally awesome. It will be more detailed, less work and much better than it used to be. And faster too. And it will make more sense. And be cooler. Did we mention that it will be totally awesome? And that we rock? Stay tuned for our next installment, when we will report an actual play session while making sure we don't actually reveal any crunch but instead revel in the awesomeness of the game session, so that you can share with us the joy of knowing what was the general vibe of awesomeness we were into without gaining actual useful information on how the game  operates."

Quote from: Consonant DudeOne thing I think most people can agree about 4e is that the way they have "revealed" 4e so far is terribly lame and can be summed up as:

"Oh, we're changing X but don't worry. It will be totally awesome. It will be more detailed, less work and much better than it used to be. And faster too. And it will make more sense. And be cooler. Did we mention that it will be totally awesome? And that we rock? Stay tuned for our next installment, when we will report an actual play session while making sure we don't actually reveal any crunch but instead revel in the awesomeness of the game session, so that you can share with us the joy of knowing what was the general vibe of awesomeness we were into without gaining actual useful information on how the game  operates."

Ah, yes, the olde tyme fear of Gaming Industry Ninjas... it rears its ugly, yet oddly stealthful, head once more....

Oh, this is cute. This is just DARLING. I never imagined I'd reach a point where I'd be labelled a "grognard". :grumpy:  Hell hath indeed frozen over....

Quote from: obrynYou know, I appreciate that you feel so strongly about a lot of this stuff, but I completely disagree.

I'm not going to go into the specific whys and wherefores - there are about 80 other threads for that here - but the whole "trampling D&D's memory" thing is just too much.

It's the same refrain that we heard when 3e was coming out.  It was bullshit then, and it's bullshit now.  Your criteria for what makes a game D&D are not the same as other peoples'.  (Check the fairly recent poll for why.)  They are trashing nothing except in your head.

Could you stop being so casually dismissive, and accept the POSSIBILITY that there's a difference between the release of 4e and 3e? Just humor me for a minute. This is not the same refrain as seven years ago. You're forcing me to repeat myself, and I hate that. I'll try again. :banghead:

If you DRASTICALLY change BOTH the meta-setting AND game mechanics to Dungeons & Dragons, then what is left of the game?

3e is a very different game from previous editions; this is true. BUT....it's still recognizably D&D. Why? Because most of the meta-setting and cosmology is intact. The meta-setting and cosmology affects how campaigns resolve EVERYTHING. It affects religion, magic, technology, monster encounters, the game's economy, and much more.

Quote from: obrynThey are not calling the game by a new name because (1) it's a direct, evolutionary descendant of 3e D&D, and (2) they own the trademark, and it's a very valuable one.

-O

Forget the trademark for a minute. They could say a lump of shit was D&D, and you roll a d20 to determine what you do with it, but this discussion is not about trademark legal bullshit.

Just because you don't consciously acknowledge the meta-setting and planar cosmology of D&D, doesn't mean it doesn't affect your campaign in ways you're not aware of. The meta-setting influences how religion is handled, how magic is handled, and because of that, how magic influences society. Furthermore, meta-setting influences what creatures we encounter, and where. You can CHANGE your meta-setting for your homebrew campaign, and not bother codifying your meta-setting and planar cosmology, but if you're running a campaign, YOU STILL HAVE ONE. It might be inconsistent, or vaguely defined, but it's still there whether we like it or not. You see what I'm saying?

Furthermore, I'd appreciate it if certain people don't casually shit on concepts like "legacy" or "tradition". These are not dirty words. With each new edition, there have been changes, but most of the core legacy of the game has remained intact. In 4e, it LOOKS like they're gonna strip that legacy away.

Again, I'm willing to be proven wrong, and will pick up the core books. I'm not such a crank that I'm unwilling to at least be open to the possibility that 4e will rock on toast and still be faithful to D&D's legacy. We'll see. :cool:

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb3e is a very different game from previous editions; this is true. BUT....it's still recognizably D&D. Why? Because most of the meta-setting and cosmology is intact. The meta-setting and cosmology affects how campaigns resolve EVERYTHING. It affects religion, magic, technology, monster encounters, the game's economy, and much more.

Apparently, a lot of people (myself included) don't give a shit about the lame cosmology. It's still going to be recognizably D&D because D&D was there before these elements were awkwardly added to it.

Or are you saying that OD&D isn't recognizable D&D?

Quote from: Consonant DudeApparently, a lot of people (myself included) don't give a shit about the lame cosmology. It's still going to be recognizably D&D because D&D was there before these elements were awkwardly added to it.

Or are you saying that OD&D isn't recognizable D&D?

I'll be honest with you. I don't remember OD&D very well. I haven't looked at OD&D in decades, but if I recall correctly, the game suggested resolving combat using Chainmail's rules. That sounds more like a "proto-rpg" than a full-fledged rpg to me. Anyway, you can drastically change the rules or drastically change the meta-setting of D&D and still call it D&D, but you can't do both, or it becomes something else. There's no getting around that. :pundit:

Furthermore, while you "don't give a shit about the lame cosmology", that doesn't really matter. Your campaign (if you have one) has a cosmology ANYWAY. It might be inconsistent or it might be vague because you haven't bothered to codify it, but it still exists.

Does your campaign have spells that allow you to travel to the Astral or Ethereal Planes? There's a component of the D&D cosmology right there. Do your wizards summon fire elementals? If so, they come from somewhere, like the Elemental Plane of Fire. If you have demons and devils, they probably reside on some hellish dimension from beyond, and come forth when summoned by a magic-user wanting to make some sort of infernal pact.

If you play D&D, then your campaign also has a "lame cosmology". What you do with it is up to you.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambI'll be honest with you. I don't remember OD&D very well. I haven't looked at OD&D in decades, so I got nothing. You can drastically change the rules or drastically change the meta-setting of D&D and still call it D&D, but you can't do both, or it becomes something else. There's no getting around that.

Furthermore, while you "don't give a shit about the lame cosmology", that doesn't really matter. Your campaign (if you have one) has a cosmology ANYWAY. It might be inconsistent or it might be vague because you haven't bothered to codify it, but it still exists.

Yeah, I could buy that, I suppose. Just so you know, I'm also pointing out that I don't give a shit about it as a sort of disclaimer. Obviously, since I don't care about it, it's not much of a shock if they change it. Just like I never used Monks. I'll be happy if it is true that they are gone.

Someone who appreciates the cosmology is obviously not going to view 4e from the same angle as me. That's the thing with D&D. Everybody that has played it over time has its own references when it comes to it (me included, of course).

Earlier in the thread, pointed out that they were removing the Gnome as an example that 4e was messing up with the legacy in a way never seen before and I thought that was interesting. Because Gnomes weren't originally in there. That person may see Gnomes as prototypical but I don't. I was playing the game before there were Gnomes. They were what I considered an awkward addition. Plus, other editions have removed or added races and classes so there's nothing groundbreaking about 4e doing the same.

Anyway, I want to point out again I'm not saying 4e will be for everybody but I haven't seen indications that it will not be recognizable as D&D for me.

Oy vey.

The "it is/is not D&D" argument is absolute wankery if you expect it to have any merit beyond trademark. Beyond that, what each of us cares to define as "D&D" is purely a matter of personal experience and opinion.

That doesn't, however, mean I'm not going to make decisions based on that opinion.

Sorry about my edited post, Consonant Dude. I couldn't make up up my mind on what I wanted to say, and kept editing it like a dipshit. So what you quoted from me is slightly different from what I finally posted because I suddenly remembered stuff about OD&D (after I posted). That's all. Carry on...

Quote from: Sacrificial LambSorry about my edited post, Consonant Dude. I couldn't make up up my mind on what I wanted to say, and kept editing it like a dipshit. So what you quoted from me is slightly different from what I finally posted because I suddenly remembered stuff about OD&D (after I posted). That's all. Carry on...

No problem, man!

While I still find the concept of the importance of the cosmology alien, I think I'm starting to understand what you mean, even though I still don't care. But anyway, I think you said yourself that you weren't exactly sure how much they were changing it. I can only hope it won't fuck up your campaign or that, barring that, you'll be able to revert to 3e's cosmology without much trouble. From what little I know, it's not like the Manual of the Planes is very rules heavy. Or am I wrong.

On the subject of the actual rules going through significant changes: again, a matter of opinion but the changes seem light. I was hoping for a revamped AC system but I don't think it I'm even going to get that.

Hopefully the changes end up being to your (and my) taste. Unless your wallet is thin. In that case, might be preferable for the game to suck

Myself, I really can't say one way or another yet. Although I remain optimistic from what I have seen so far.