Quote from: J ArcaneIt's essentially a very simple AI system designed to make up for not having a real GM at the table.  

Sounds like WotC's ideal D&D system is a game that plays without a DM.

Quote from: HaffrungSounds like WotC's ideal D&D system is a game that plays without a DM.

As I've said before, I think that's true from the perspective that 4e is a step in a long process wherein the end result is a computer-facilitated game (not MMO, people).

To do that, you have to start considering the parts of the game that are, in play, still DM controlled - like how opposition will react. In the end, the GM will set up the adventure/setting and let the software do the rest (refereeing when necessary).

IMHO, YMMV, etc.

You know what I'm actually pretty bothered by?

Eladrin as a playable race. Why? I mean... what does an Eladrin bring to the table? "I'm an elf, only elfier!" I dunno... just kinda bugs me.

Quote from: RPGPunditAt first glance, it appears that 4e's intended "solution" for this will be that they'll have a class called "Fighter", but it will feature spell-like attacks and superpowers at higher levels. So, not really a fighter at all.

As long as they stick to maneuvers instead of spells (and in more than just name), they'll be fighter enough for me. I love Tome of Battle, so won't be in the slightest bit upset to see ideas from there pour into the core rules.

Quote from: RPGPunditDude, exactly. This is what I already despised about 3.x, and its only been ramped up to 11 with the new edition.  Nothing is just a fighter anymore; no, a fighter has to have psionics, cast "battle spells" and eventually must multiclass as a Ninja-warlock or something or else he'll get his ass kicked.

That's why my own FtA! is archetypal. Classes are classes. I'm SICK TO FUCKING DEATH of prestige classes and of classes being ramped up.

To me, the minute that D&D started to suck was when some fuckface decided that every class had to have magic (or spell-like abilities, or combat maneuvers that worked like spells), and that every class had to get some kind of kewl power at every single level.  That immediately meant the death of the regular thief, the regular fighter, and even the regular wizard.

RPGPundit

I don't like most prestige classes. The whole point of taking one for most people is so they can be more powerful than a "non-prestige" character of equal level, and yet only pay the same amount of xp when leveling up.

Also, I'm fine with warrior-type character classes having supernatural powers, as long as it's understood that said characters with such classes are rare as NPCs. As far as I'm concerned, most sword-jockeys should be renegade fighters, rogues, and barbarians with NO supernatural powers.

Paladins, rangers, monks, and psychic warriors should be rare. That's the way I see it.

Quote from: beejazzYou know what I'm actually pretty bothered by?

Eladrin as a playable race. Why? I mean... what does an Eladrin bring to the table? "I'm an elf, only elfier!" I dunno... just kinda bugs me.

What are eladrin? I googled it, and I'm still confused. I probably read about them in some sourcebook somewhere, but I'm just not remembering....:confused:

Quote from: Sacrificial LambWhat are eladrin? I googled it, and I'm still confused. I probably read about them in some sourcebook somewhere, but I'm just not remembering....:confused:

Thus far they've been celestials on the CG planes, and kinda elf-themed. Now they're in the feywild, might be fey, and are a playable race. I'm just stuck wondering why, myself.

"Aggro" is short for "aggression".  It's a term of jargon meant to succinctly say that a given MMO player is the target of a NPC.  As noted above, this is due to technical difficulties in current MMO design--things that also include players and NPCs being to run through each other, making area denial tactics or terrain control tactics difficult or impossible to implement--and the use of this mechanic is a means to work around the issue.

When in combat, a NPC maintains a Threat Table.  This is a dynamic table and on that list are enemy NPCs and players; the character at the top of the list is also the NPC's target.  Different actions generate different threat values; in WOW (and other MMOs) this can be tracked through a third-party UI add-on.  For WOW, various classes have class abilities that can directly alter the place on the threat table for that character; this can be up or down, permanent or temporary.  Warriors have Taunt, meant to take the warrior to the top of the table immediately--"gaining Aggro"--and thereby attract the NPC's attention; other Warrior abilities can then come into play to build on this quickly so that others don't supplant the warrior (i.e. "rip Aggro").  Priests have Fade, which removes the priest entirely from the table for a few seconds before return to his former position; this is meant to allow a Warrior, Druid (Bear form only) or Paladin to move in and supplant the priest on the table quickly.  There are also modifiers to threat generated (+ or - X%, innate to the class or gained by Talent point expenditure).

This sort of thing is entirely unnecessary for a tabletop RPG, which is why I do not expect that such a thing would ever become part of 4.0's final version.

In fact, they rejected an aggro system for 4e rather quickly. And referred to it as an 'aggro system' in direct response to someone asking about 'aggro systems'.

Now, don't let me interrupt you gentlemen describing the elephant or anything.

Quote from: Christmas ApeIn fact, they rejected an aggro system for 4e rather quickly. And referred to it as an 'aggro system' in direct response to someone asking about 'aggro systems'.

Got a link? I'd be interested to see how that discussion went.

Quote from: beejazzThus far they've been celestials on the CG planes, and kinda elf-themed. Now they're in the feywild, might be fey, and are a playable race. I'm just stuck wondering why, myself.

probably to balance against the tieflings.

Quote from: beeberprobably to balance against the tieflings.

Tieflings I'm meh about*, but if you wanted to counterbalance them, why not use aasimar?

I'm just kind of nonplussed by their selection of new races overall, now that I think of it.

*"Evil" PCs that aren't really evil? Don't we now have the warlock as core already? Wouldn't drow have more appeal to fans? Wouldn't eschewing half-orcs in favor of... you know... orcs be a better idea overall? Hell, instead of a new goodie and a new baddie, let's just include the warforged... coolest playable race added to 3.x that didn't appear previously.

I suppose that I'm one of those gamers who likes shiny and new regardless of past preferences.  I just don't have any game loyalty even if I've invested lots into a particular game.  I am really looking forward to what the designers are talking about delivering.

It's not like the mass of 3.5 is just going to disappear.  The game is incredibly successful - I would guess that it's one of the most, if not the most, successful incarnation of the game yet.  Do you really need WotC's constant support to have fun with it?

That being said, I still picked option number 2.  Overall I'm optimistic, but I have this funny feeling that they're going to do something that'll turn me off of the game.  Don't know what, but there's been that something in every incarnation of DnD that eventually gets my dander up and I'm off looking for a game more to my tastes and I don't expect that to change.  But you never know... this could be the DnD that actually gets me to play DnD for a long period of time.

Bring on 4e!  Bring on the new blood.

i don't mind the shiny and new thing.  i guess i'm just being cranky.  to me, and some very important formative memories in gaming, d&d means certain things, relating to moldvay B/E and later ad&d 1.  i skipped 2e, and played other games like traveller.  when 3.0 came out, i tried it.  it was neat, but to me it was "like" d&d.  there were similarities to stuff i remembered, some neat new stuff, some "i don't know. . . :raise: " stuff.  as i migrated to .5, i became more disillusioned with the whole thing.  it was a new thing, a game called "d20" that i could follow, and "get," but it wasn't d&d to me, so i stopped.  

this new version is appearing to be even less like d&d to me.  no one in my group is expressing any interest, so it's highly likely that i won't play it either.  hell, if i end up leaving borders, i probably won't even buy the new PH, even if they do the $20 intro version like they did with 3.0.  

that said, i hope it does well.  i hope it brings new folks into the hobby.  i hope it brings new blood to gaming tables, face to face.  but if someone wants to play D&D, they'll have to go back many years.  i'll pull out my moldvay stuff, and we'll do it the old way.

So, eladrin are High Elves and elves are Wood Elves now?