I imagine that what tends to happen is that a large number of people who claim that the current edition of any game is fine and that they hate the mere possibility of a new version actually find the new version quite appealing when it comes out. They don't buy it because they feel compelled, they buy it because, by and large, they realise that all of their prior objections were knee-jerk, reactionary whining and they have more sense than to feel bound by them. The real question is how many of them will have the balls to admit this after the fact, how many people will refuse to play a game that they might enjoy on siome twisted principle, and how many people will try a new edition with an openmind and genuinely find that it doesn't suit them?

Quote from: jgantsClearly there are a not-insignificant number of people out there who feel compelled to buy the new edition, regardless of whether or not they actually think they'll like it or really even want it right away.

At least part of what makes people compelled to upgrade is the same thing that makes people feel compelled to upgrade various software that they use.  First, when a new version comes out, the old version eventually loses support.  Second, as other people start to use the new version that is incompatible with the old version, a person with the old version will become cut off from the people using the new version (the whole "network externality" thing).  So even someone who is quite happy with 3.5 might feel compelled to upgrade if they want to use the new source material and adventures coming out for 4E and to play with other people in their area who have switched.  Further, if the DM of a group insists on going 4E, they can often drag their players along for the ride, even if they are pretty happy with what they have.

Quote from: TrevelyanI imagine that what tends to happen is that a large number of people who claim that the current edition of any game is fine and that they hate the mere possibility of a new version actually find the new version quite appealing when it comes out. They don't buy it because they feel compelled, they buy it because, by and large, they realise that all of their prior objections were knee-jerk, reactionary whining and they have more sense than to feel bound by them. The real question is how many of them will have the balls to admit this after the fact, how many people will refuse to play a game that they might enjoy on siome twisted principle, and how many people will try a new edition with an openmind and genuinely find that it doesn't suit them?

Fuck you too.

Quote from: jgantsThat said, I think Drew's point was there are a lot of people who say things like "Well, I don't really like the direction they are heading but it's the new edition of D&D so I'll probably still buy the core books"  OR  "I just spent a ton on 3.5 and am still having fun with it, but now that 4e is coming out I guess I'll have to re-buy everything".

Clearly there are a not-insignificant number of people out there who feel compelled to buy the new edition, regardless of whether or not they actually think they'll like it or really even want it right away.

The main thrust of my point was criticizing the people whom complain about being strongarmed into updating and then go ahead and get it anyway.

Personally I'll be buying 4E, mainly because I really like what I've heard of it so far. If others dislike like the stuff outlined in the previews and decide not to purchase then I can respect that. Just don't whine about being coerced. There's always a choice, especially when it comes to something as ephemeral as what games you decide to play.

Quote from: jgantsI'm sure there are plenty of people liking the products, and that will like the new product.

That said, I think Drew's point was there are a lot of people who say things like "Well, I don't really like the direction they are heading but it's the new edition of D&D so I'll probably still buy the core books"  OR  "I just spent a ton on 3.5 and am still having fun with it, but now that 4e is coming out I guess I'll have to re-buy everything".

Clearly there are a not-insignificant number of people out there who feel compelled to buy the new edition, regardless of whether or not they actually think they'll like it or really even want it right away.

Define "not-insignificant" and I might agree.

My opinion: the vast majority will switch to 4.0 because that's where the action will go, support for 3.5 will instantly fall to insignificant, the local stores will quickly jump ship to stay with the gravy train, and those left will either fall away from the community (if not the hobby) or suck it up and switch to stay in the game.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerMy opinion: the vast majority will switch to 4.0 because that's where the action will go, support for 3.5 will instantly fall to insignificant, the local stores will quickly jump ship to stay with the gravy train, and those left will either fall away from the community (if not the hobby) or suck it up and switch to stay in the game.

Alternatively a small but thriving 3.5 community may spring up, keeping the home fires burning with sites similar to Dragonsfoot.

Quote from: DrewAlternatively a small but thriving 3.5 community may spring up, keeping the home fires burning with sites similar to Dragonsfoot.

Like...say...//www.d20haven.com - or something.

Man I wish I didn't have so much work so I could get back to that site and finish up the unification process....

"So, you can be a half-demon ninja warlock or a swashbuckling hobbit chaos druid"

"What, is this Rifts? Can't I just be a fighter ?"

"Sorry but that's not k3wl or buffed enough for 4e - you'll be up against dragon-blooded half-orc spider-cultists with obsidian apocalypse knives. It's totally hardcore."

"Does this mean I have to read stuff?"

"Don't be silly, there's a podcast. Oh and by the way the other players are online, so you can stay at home. They're in Sardinia, Ramsbottom and Belize"

"Oh"

That staying at home part is a big turn-off right there.
Can't get a back rub from nice looking gamer girl if she is at a different location.

Quote from: Sean"So, you can be a half-demon ninja warlock or a swashbuckling hobbit chaos druid"

"What, is this Rifts? Can't I just be a fighter ?"

"Sorry but that's not k3wl or buffed enough for 4e - you'll be up against dragon-blooded half-orc spider-cultists with obsidian apocalypse knives. It's totally hardcore."

"Does this mean I have to read stuff?"

"Don't be silly, there's a podcast. Oh and by the way the other players are online, so you can stay at home. They're in Sardinia, Ramsbottom and Belize"

"Oh"

that's it!  that's what was bugging me about 3.x, reading dungeon adventures!  it came off as rifts-esque, with all the templates and huge statblocks, and k3wl p0w3rz that required tons of books to understand!

thank you, sean!

one rifts in the gaming world is quite enough, thank you very much.

Quote from: Sean"So, you can be a half-demon ninja warlock or a swashbuckling hobbit chaos druid"

I bet the adventures written for such characters don't take the badass beginners into consideration:-

"So my psionic Eladrin battlemage enters the cavern"

"Whereupon an Ogre, 4 Orcs and a Chaos Smurf burst from the shadows from different directions. You are surrounded. "

"Big deal, I draw the fabled fiery runesword of Minguz while summoning the demon bound within my mithril codpiece to add his blessing. Potentially how much damage would I do if I attack."

"Er, anyone got any more dice ?"

(or maybe the published adventure will require your character to be a total full-metal badass at Level 1 in order to play it)

Hell, with a bit of thought you can probably do a servicable job of converting Rifts to D&D 3.5.  (Lots of templates and use of corner-case materials like Magic of Incarnum required.)

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerHell, with a bit of thought you can probably do a servicable job of converting Rifts to D&D 3.5.  (Lots of templates and use of corner-case materials like Magic of Incarnum required.)

nah, i'd convert it the other way, keeping things all old-school with obscure tables and arbitrary power delineations.  balance schmalance!

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI love the Warlock, and think it fills the Sorcerer's role better than the Sorcerer.

Lots of people love the Warlock, just like lots of people loved playing superheroes, psionics, Jedi, etc. for decades before the Warlock came to D&D.

The pop-culture notion of a paranormal power is something that doesn't run out of ammo in the first five minutes and leave the user useless and bored for sixteen hours.  The pop-culture notion of a wizard is not somebody who's useful from 09:00 to 09:05 and a burden on his friends for the rest of the day.

Gygax had unusual talent to be able to sell people on glass-cannon, low-ammo wizards, but the basic idea is quite contrary to the general notion of a wizard.  As long as people have known about Gygaxian wizardry, most of them have been trying to get away from it, back to something that resembles folklore and fiction.

The trick is that as long as 3.x has existed, I've been interested in how to fix the problem, how to make wizards useful.  The Warlock and the reserve spell feat both do a lot.  If they had given me the reserve spell feat in 2000, I'd still be playing 3.x and teaching it to others.  They didn't, I got GURPS in the meantime, and it's easier to emulate any fun aspects of D&D in GURPS than it is to buy D&D books and figure out how to use them and teach them to my players.