Warlocks are Clerics.

Not really, but there is a similarity in that they get power from a more powerful being.

Quote from: Bill;770891Warlocks are Clerics.

Not really, but there is a similarity in that they get power from a more powerful being.

They are clerics, but clerics of Gods that are pretty weak and desperate for worshipers.

Most gods have so many followers that they only really pay attention to their clerics when they hit level 20. Gods who have Warlocks have so few follower that they are paying attention to them at level 1.

Quote from: jadrax;770897They are clerics, but clerics of Gods that are pretty weak and desperate for worshipers.

Most gods have so many followers that they only really pay attention to their clerics when they hit level 20. Gods who have Warlocks have so few follower that they are paying attention to them at level 1.

Plot hook gold.

Sure your Completely Benevolent God will give you more power.

Strings? I thought those were invisible...Pay no attention to the Puppeteer.

Actually the Boingboing article had a warlock spoiler hidden at the end.

Spoiler

Quote from: jadrax;770897They are clerics, but clerics of Gods that are pretty weak and desperate for worshipers.

Most gods have so many followers that they only really pay attention to their clerics when they hit level 20. Gods who have Warlocks have so few follower that they are paying attention to them at level 1.

Warlocks don't worship their patrons.

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;771513Warlocks don't worship their patrons.

I'm sure some do

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;771513Warlocks don't worship their patrons.

'Sometimes the relationship between a warlock and patron is like that of a cleric and a deity.' - Players Handbook, page 105, pictured in the spoiler quote above.

Quote from: jadrax;771518'Sometimes the relationship between a warlock and patron is like that of a cleric and a deity.' - Players Handbook, page 105, pictured in the spoiler quote above.

This actually makes me less likely to buy this book; blurring the distinction between two classes which should be very different is, to be blunt, piss poor writing. In any event, I've never played a warlock that way, and never will. If I feel like playing a cleric, I'll bloody well put down "cleric" on my character sheet, thank you so much. [/rant]

edited to add: Thanks for pointing out the quote from the PHB.

Warlocks would be great cultists worshipping small gods... spirits hoping for more power, or gods fallen on hard times... and there's nothing more dangerous than a dying god.

Quote from: Will;771646Warlocks would be great cultists worshipping small gods... spirits hoping for more power, or gods fallen on hard times... and there's nothing more dangerous than a dying god.

In 4e that was a Vestige Pact Warlock and from what I hear and see they were quite popular so I assume they will show up soon enough.

Vestiage locks ate the 3.5 binder class. What makes it cool is they collect power from multiple semi divine beings. Like learning half remembered prayers, fragmented sacrifice rituals, etc. Makes them like archeologist casters.

Quote from: jadrax;770897They are clerics, but clerics of Gods that are pretty weak and desperate for worshipers.

I like that idea.

But if this is so, why is the Warlock list so different from the Cleric list?

Quote from: 1of3;771730I like that idea.

But if this is so, why is the Warlock list so different from the Cleric list?

It is due to the rules laid down by the great god 'G'. Only gods with a certain number of worshipers can grant the spells on the cleric list, to preserve the grand harmony. Many of these spells are about keeping there congregations strong.

Forsaken gods can't directly grant spells, so instead teach there followers a few arcane spells they have stolen from sorcerers and other supernatural beings. While these spells are useful for tempting followers away from established churches, if they become established they will want to grant Cleric spells instead.

Quote from: jadrax;771518'Sometimes the relationship between a warlock and patron is like that of a cleric and a deity.' - Players Handbook, page 105, pictured in the spoiler quote above.

I find this interesting because in my campaigns I often approach the whole issue from the other side.

In other words, it's not that some warlocks actually worship their patrons in the same way that a cleric worships their god. It's that the relationship some clerics have to their gods is a "you give me power and I'll be your agent on the Prime Plane" business relationship rather than one of worship.

So for me the big difference between warlocks and clerics is the type of entity that's giving them power rather than the nature of the relationship. Only gods can actually grant clerical spells. Demon worshippers and cultists of extra-dimensional entities are stuck with being warlocks - which is comparable to being a cleric in terms of magical power, but with more strings attached and without the social and temporal power that goes with being a cleric.

(Of course, my campaigns are usually set in Mystara - so for "gods" substitute "Immortals" and for "extra-dimensional" substitute "Nightmare Dimension"...)

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;771636This actually makes me less likely to buy this book; blurring the distinction between two classes which should be very different is, to be blunt, piss poor writing. In any event, I've never played a warlock that way, and never will. If I feel like playing a cleric, I'll bloody well put down "cleric" on my character sheet, thank you so much. [/rant]

edited to add: Thanks for pointing out the quote from the PHB.

It makes sense to me. Some warlocks would worship a Patron in a manner similar to a Cleric worshipping a God. This does not make warlocks and clerics the same. It just means some warlocks would behave similarly to some clerics. Some clerics would act like warlocks.

I really don't see this as a problem. I play a wizard that acts like and looks like, a paladin.