What are the essential elements of the most generic of D&D settings? You can, of course, dump just about anything and everything to create your own setting. But what I'm looking for here are the elements that scream D&D -- things you must have in a setting to have the D&D feel to it. Simultaneously, I'm interested in what things could be dumped without hurting the feel of D&D. What could you rip out and still have something that feels like D&D?
Here are some of my thoughts:
Dungeons -- while they don't necessarily have to be underground, you really need to have locations filled with monsters that the PCs can kill and take their loot.
Dragons -- one problem I had with 2e and now with 3e is that dragons have become unstoppable killing machines. (At least if the DM runs them right.) Whilst they were far too wimpy in 1e, I think it's a bit much. I hardly ever run a dragon in an adventure because I don't do TPKs. I think D&D needs more dragons back in the setting.
Adventuring parties -- there needs to be some reason for wildly disparate individuals to get together, go into dungeons, fight dragons, and take their phat loot.
Humanoids & demihumans -- D&D wouldn't be the same without dwarves, elves, halflings, orcs, and goblins, at least, as annoying as some of the racial stereotypes are. Not all of them are necessary -- who needs gnomes when you have halflings, or kobolds when you have goblins? -- but the concept of multiple humanoid races is pretty essential to D&D.
As for something that I think could (and should) be ripped out are all the zillion types of magic. Cleric, wizard, druid, bard, psionics -- one spell list would be much better. I'm not 100% satisfied with Arcana Evolved, 'cause I like the more bad-assed magic of the standard rules, but I think it is essentially a step in the right direction. D&D spells are complicated enough without the added, and to me unnecessary, complication of different spell lists.
So, what do y'all think? What would YOU say is absolutely necessary to a generic D&D setting?
the thing about AE is that the spell lists are really simplified, when compared to d&d.
AE: Exotic, Complex, simple.
D&D: Assassin, Bard, Blackguard, Cleric, Cleric Domains, Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer/Wizard. and that's just the core books... try throwing psionics and all of the extra base classes from the complete series in there, and shit gets REALLY complicated.
I think there is value when it comes to simplifying the spell lists, and I like what AE did. I'm not sure that theres a way to simplify it any further without making it honestly more complex.
I think dragons should be damn near unstoppable. My thinking is that dragons should be something out of Tolkein or the like, in that it should dominate an area for a hundred square miles, and everybody knows where it is and it should scare the piss out of them. Thus, it should be a serious challenge, and it should be planned out. Dragons shouldn't be a random encounter; they should be a major event.
Quote from: Lisa NadazdyI think dragons should be damn near unstoppable. My thinking is that dragons should be something out of Tolkein or the like, in that it should dominate an area for a hundred square miles, and everybody knows where it is and it should scare the piss out of them. Thus, it should be a serious challenge, and it should be planned out. Dragons shouldn't be a random encounter; they should be a major event.
Point noted and taken. That would be much better than a lot of modules where you have no idea you're about to run into a dragon until half the party is dead from its breath weapon. Something that bad-assed should be KNOWN to one and all.
Okay, if I were to build a core system of D&D:
Races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling. Other races can be intoduced through other books.
Classes: Fighter, Wizard, Thief, Cleric, with plenty of options to customize them into more special types (Ways to build a fighter type into something like a Barbarian or Ranger or something else out of the players imagination).
Controlled hit point gain, with a more consistant approach to healing and damage (so that magical healing falls in line with natural healing).
Armor as DR rather than AC.
Make it a base assumption characters will have no magic items throughout their entire career, and then base character strength in a campaign as character + magic items vs. monster CR. This will allow DMs to customize the level of magic in the game far more easily. The current assumption is that players will have X amount of magic items by L 20, and if they don't, they're usually gimped compared to the monsters they fight. It also makes it hard to strip out magic items and properly gauge character strength without them.
Find a way to merge skills and Feats into a unified system. Simpler is better.
Of course, I'd reather use HERO for fantasy, as it works better at simulating book fiction, but that's just me. :)
Quote from: AelfinnI think there is value when it comes to simplifying the spell lists, and I like what AE did. I'm not sure that theres a way to simplify it any further without making it honestly more complex.
I'm prolly going to have to get their spell treasury book. It has all the OGL PHB spells, so it might give me at least a strong lead on a unified spell list for D&D.
Quote from: CyberzombieI'm prolly going to have to get their spell treasury book. It has all the OGL PHB spells, so it might give me at least a strong lead on a unified spell list for D&D.
only has most of them, actually - still no magic missile, and a few others are still missing.
It's a pretty good book, though. overall, i'm pleased with the purchase.
also, if you're just looking for the AE/spell treasury consolidated list, it's on the malhavoc site for free...
http://www.malhavocpress.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Treas_enhance (http://www.malhavocpress.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Treas_enhance)
Actually, it does have Magic Missile, as a 1st-level Exotic spell. You need to roll to hit with the missiles (though they ignore cover and concealment of less than total value), it does 1d6 damage, and gives +1 to hit and damage. Same progression as D&D's magic missile (+1 per 2 levels, up to 5 missiles).
Interestingly, it's listed as a 2nd level spell in the list, but 1st level in the description.
Quote from: Lisa NadazdyRaces: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling. Other races can be intoduced through other books.
That definitely appeals to the OD&D in me. :D
Quote from: Lisa NadazdyClasses: Fighter, Wizard, Thief, Cleric, with plenty of options to customize them into more special types (Ways to build a fighter type into something like a Barbarian or Ranger or something else out of the players imagination).
I'd go one simpler and dump the cleric, personally. I'd have each roll be customizable and I'd allow full multiclassing.
Quote from: Lisa NadazdyControlled hit point gain, with a more consistant approach to healing and damage (so that magical healing falls in line with natural healing).
D&D character creation either needs to be entirely point buy, or a whole lot more random. Having only ability scores and hp random makes all attempts at game balance silly.
Quote from: Lisa NadazdyArmor as DR rather than AC.
I like the half AC half DR idea, but I agree in general. :)
Quote from: Lisa NadazdyMake it a base assumption characters will have no magic items throughout their entire career, and then base character strength in a campaign as character + magic items vs. monster CR. This will allow DMs to customize the level of magic in the game far more easily. The current assumption is that players will have X amount of magic items by L 20, and if they don't, they're usually gimped compared to the monsters they fight. It also makes it hard to strip out magic items and properly gauge character strength without them.
That's one of the nice features of Iron Heroes.
Quote from: Lisa NadazdyFind a way to merge skills and Feats into a unified system. Simpler is better.
Only one I don't like. Of course, if you showed me a way it would work, I might change my tune. :)
Quote from: Lisa NadazdyOf course, I'd reather use HERO for fantasy, as it works better at simulating book fiction, but that's just me. :)
I've only ever seen an early edition of Champions and it didn't grab me at all. :)
Quote from: DackeActually, it does have Magic Missile, as a 1st-level Exotic spell. You need to roll to hit with the missiles (though they ignore cover and concealment of less than total value), it does 1d6 damage, and gives +1 to hit and damage. Same progression as D&D's magic missile (+1 per 2 levels, up to 5 missiles).
Interestingly, it's listed as a 2nd level spell in the list, but 1st level in the description.
First: thanks, Aelfinn! I'll have to take a look at that link. :)
I knew magic missile would be exotic if it was there at all. Fortunately, I'm not compelled to pay attention to that part at all. If magic missile is too powerful compared to the other 1st level spells, THEN MAYBE THE OTHER SPELLS SHOULD SUCK A LITTLE LESS ASS!!!!!
Ahem. :) EXACTLY as with the "harm" spell, I don't buy that something that was fine for 25 years suddenly became "broken" in 3e. But that's all I'll say on that subject, to avoid us ENWorlding all over this poor thread of mine.
Quote from: CyberzombieI've only ever seen an early edition of Champions and it didn't grab me at all. :)
The 4e version of HERO was.... okay. The 5e version of Fantasy HERO blows it out of the water. Even if you aren't a HERO gamer, it's worth having.
For instance, it has a dozen different magic systems, and guidelines to create your own, depending on what kind of magic you're trying to simulate.
It also has mass combat rules details on weapon and armor construction (like how long it would take to make a suit of plate and chain).
There's basic templates for dozens of different, racial, social, enviromental, and profession types.
If you like Feats, most professions have various specialized talents and 'super-skills', not to mention a whole section on misc. talents.
It just has tons in it. More importantly, I can tweak and construct characters to my design, not to what the game designers think I should. I could design a warrior that's so-so with swords and daggers, is a crack shot with a bow or crossbow (is dead eye with a long bow), and is skilled with assassinating from behind using a dagger (a cut-throat). While you might get something close to that with D&D, it won't be exactly the same design, and you have to use clumsy cross-classing just to shohorn your character into an aproximate mold of your design.
Quote from: CyberzombieAhem. :) EXACTLY as with the "harm" spell, I don't buy that something that was fine for 25 years suddenly became "broken" in 3e. But that's all I'll say on that subject, to avoid us ENWorlding all over this poor thread of mine.
I think the main reason Harm "became" broken was instituting touch ACs. In AD&D, you needed to HIT the opponent to harm him, and getting off a 6th level cleric spell in melee wasn't all that easy (especially one with a full-round casting time). In 3e, casting Harm is just a standard action, an 11th level cleric can easily avoid the AoO for doing so (concentration DC 21, the cleric has +14 for skill ranks alone, plus Con bonus and assorted other stuff), and if he misses he can just "hold the charge" and try again.
Plus, magic was more powerful in 2e in general.
Quote from: CyberzombieHumanoids & demihumans -- D&D wouldn't be the same without dwarves, elves, halflings, orcs, and goblins, at least, as annoying as some of the racial stereotypes are.
I'd suggest that the racial stereotypes themselves are an essential part of a typical published D&D setting.
Quote from: CyberzombieQuote from: Lisa NadazdyFind a way to merge skills and Feats into a unified system. Simpler is better.
Only one I don't like. Of course, if you showed me a way it would work, I might change my tune. :)
When I laid my grubby paws on Oblivion, I saw it featured an old idea of mine, which they called "skill perks." Essentially, they're feats that are acquired when your skill reaches a high enough score. In Oblivion you do not have a choice which perk you get, but you could imagine multiple perk trees for each skill. For inspiration, Modern's feat and talent trees could be looked at.Now, on to the setting proper. Some considerations. D&D usually features these elements:- A pseudo-medieval and pseudo-European society
- Polytheism mixed in with chivalry
- Open practice of flashy magic
- All sorts of undead
- Cyclopean underground complexes
- An impressive level of cosmopolitism, even if still mostly human-centric
- One or two elven kingdoms where non-elves are forbidden to enter on pain on death
- One or two copies of the Moria
- Most real monsters belonging to one of these groups: undead, fiends, aberrations; humanoid monsters are usually simply fireball-fodder for one of these masterminds or wandering monster encounters.
Quote from: Lisa NadazdyI think dragons should be damn near unstoppable. My thinking is that dragons should be something out of Tolkein or the like, in that it should dominate an area for a hundred square miles, and everybody knows where it is and it should scare the piss out of them. Thus, it should be a serious challenge, and it should be planned out. Dragons shouldn't be a random encounter; they should be a major event.
I reckon i like the way you talk, mmm hmm.
there shouls still be some room for younger dragons being weaker, but the older ones should always be a serious challenge. i mean, DR/magic as standard for dragons? a lowly sword +1 overcomes a great red wyrm's DR?
Quote from: CyclotronI'd suggest that the racial stereotypes themselves are an essential part of a typical published D&D setting.
I was thinking more of the cheesy stereotypes a lot of people bring to their characters. I've seen the stereotypes done well -- one of my former players, Dunar Lightfoot, plays great dwarven warriors. Before LotR came out, he was basically doing Gimli. But he's an exception -- I've seen way more people who suck at roleplaying any demihuman race.
That said, it is essential to D&D, which is just weird if you read the books that were *most* influential to the game.
Quote from: Ottomsoh the ElderlyA pseudo-medieval and pseudo-European society
This, I think, is the thing that causes me the most brain damage. It wasn't so bad in a setting like 1e AD&D, where you could assume that the players were part of a very rare breed. In 3e, you trip over NPCs with class levels, so the whole pseudo-medieval thing just doesn't work any more.
Quote from: Ottomsoh the ElderlyAn impressive level of cosmopolitism, even if still mostly human-centric
And when you add *this* into the mix, my brain really starts hurting. Pseudo-medieval and cosmopolitan? Ack!
As essential as these elements are to most generic D&D worlds, they offend my logical tendancies. :)
Quote from: BOZI reckon i like the way you talk, mmm hmm.
there shouls still be some room for younger dragons being weaker, but the older ones should always be a serious challenge. i mean, DR/magic as standard for dragons? a lowly sword +1 overcomes a great red wyrm's DR?
That's a game mechanics thing that could be fairly easily fixed. Thinking upon all this, I think what I'd like is to have powerful DRAGONS that the PCs might fight at high levels if they're really feeling lucky. But I'd also like to have more smaller dragons -- wyverns and such -- at all levels, just to keep the feeling of a world with dragons as a major player in it.
Sci-fi around the edges.
Every classic 70s era D&D setting had this. Tekumel, Wilderlands, Blackmoor, Greyhawk.
A real D&D setting that embraces the sword & sorcery stylings of Vance and Burroughs has stuff like crashed spaceships filled with robots and laser guns and "magical" races that are actually from Alpha Centauri.
Quote from: YamoSci-fi around the edges.
Every classic 70s era D&D setting had this. Tekumel, Wilderlands, Blackmoor, Greyhawk.
A real D&D setting that embraces the sword & sorcery stylings of Vance and Burroughs has stuff like crashed spaceships filled with robots and laser guns and "magical" races that are actually from Alpha Centauri.
Yay...Expedition to the Barrier Peaks! Woot!
:verkill:
Of stuff not mentioned:
BIG stuff in the past: Legendary mages of extreme power, associated with one or more physical locations, fights amongst gods altering the landscape, races that were totally wiped out by war, that sort of thing.
Each race or group needs to have their thing, something they do a little better than everyone else, that helps define them.
Historical and current change is the result largely of powerful or dynamic individuals rather than changes in attitude or behavior amongst the general population.