Quote from: Lunamancer on September 07, 2022, 01:02:16 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 07, 2022, 10:30:25 AM
Very astute and insightful, but it is also entirely centered on D&D.

That doesn't make any sense at all, "entirely centered."

Something either is centered or it isn't, entirely doesn't mean anything. And if it's entirely, then it's centered by default, and centered is redundant.

If what you really meant to say is "entirely" you're factually incorrect, as I listed 5 other RPGs by name and alluded to countless others.

And if what you really meant to say is "centered" then I think you're in for a bad time when you realize that D&D was then and is now the center of the entire industry.

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

Core ideas you ask?

Several reasons come to mind. 

1.  Nostalgia.  Some grey haired players want their old games back.

2.  To play those old games, but write them better/clearer than the original authors. Things like the proper use of words like "or" when the writer should have used an "and".   Or even to give a gameplay example.  So, they fixed the ambiguity of certain things to please rules lawyers, or just people who are perfectionists. 

3.  To "fix" the rules by using their own set of house rules instead of the official rules.  A game like Chis Gonnerman's Basic Fantasy is based on Basic/Expert rules, but now using ascending armor class, and the core rulebook splits races and classes.  That used to be a thing. A Dwarf was it's own character class.

4.  To write your own game, but rather than starting from scratch you go with what you know.  Six ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, Wiz, Int, Cha), you have an armor class, combat is a 1D20 roll to beat those armor class, but then we change anything or everything.  RPG Pundit's own games are like this. Star Adventurer is very much a 1D20 vs armor class, but it's space opera, and spells per day are out, and a skill roll for using a psychic power are used instead.  Also, leveling up gives minimal hit points, but you do roll on a random table for your level bonus.  It could be more skills, or improvement to an existing skill, more combat bonuses, or more psychic powers.

Or games like The Black Hack where all dice rolls are under one of your six ability scores.  If you're attacked, roll under an ability score to avoid damage.  If you attack, roll under your ability score to hit the other guy. 

Or Operation White Box.  It's D&D rules, but it's set in Europe during WW-2.  You play soldiers or secret agents trying to defeat the Germans. Supernatural stuff is absent. 

Quote from: Lunamancer on September 07, 2022, 10:00:09 AM
At the time the term "old school" as a colloquialism finally trickled into the unhip RPG community, at least in my region, it was the 2E era, there was some hot edition warring between 1E and 2E. The term then had a very clear meaning. It mainly meant AD&D 1st Ed specifically--OD&D and BECMI was largely ignored in the edition wars--and as far as outside D&D, it referred to out of print RPGs published prior to 2E.

This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.

How can there be core tenants, if no one even agrees on what OSR means any more? I hold a definition for rules systems, can you run B2 - Keep on the Borderlands without modifications?

This does narrow the scope significantly and really is only needed in the context of D&D derivatives since it's the only one that continuously includes breaking compatibility with older editions as a design goal in the last 20 years.

I mean Stars Without Number/ Worlds without Number are both considered OSR but have feats, multiclassing, effectively healing surges, skill lists, races separate from classes, ascending AC, effectively at will/encounter/daily powers, but is favored pretty well.

I mean I love it.

Quote from: Palleon on September 07, 2022, 08:20:32 PM
How can there be core tenants, if no one even agrees on what OSR means any more?

Hint: Nobody ever agreed on what OSR meant speaking as someone involved from before the term was coined.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 06, 2022, 01:24:33 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 06, 2022, 02:31:23 AM

Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR. With new games coming out, I'd say it's significantly more than a nostalgia movement. Also, one could just choose to pare down character classes or ignore the redefining of orcs and what have you, so I don't think it's just those elements either. Just curious what people's thoughts were.

The core idea, IMO anyway, is looking back at early games (especially pre-2nd edition AD&D) and giving "old" ideas a second look. Understanding why they used the rules they did. Ideas like encumbrance, xp for gp, level limits for demihumans, and the modes of play they used.
We had gotten to the point where it was a given that the "old" rules were not-fun, stupid, etc, new players may not have even known about them, and I think they deserved a fair second chance.

Especially if that "fair second chance" is willing to admit that some of the old rules really are still "not-fun, stupid, etc,." and feels comfortable dumping them. Those that blindly clone without doing so get no respect from me.

I think that stuff can be handled with optional rule inclusion.

Quote from: estar on September 07, 2022, 10:07:46 PM

Quote from: Palleon on September 07, 2022, 08:20:32 PM
How can there be core tenants, if no one even agrees on what OSR means any more?

Hint: Nobody ever agreed on what OSR meant speaking as someone involved from before the term was coined.

When was the "OSR" term coined? I don't think it was in widespread use yet in the mid-late 2000s.

"[Certain] old games are good."

Anything beyond that ... three OSR/BrOSR/retro/sympathetic types, six opinions.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.

Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.

I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.

1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.

Games like:
Through Sunken Lands, Beyond the Wall, and Hyperborea pretty much sum up why the OSR is so good and the principles of the movement. YMMV... Of course.

Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.

Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.

I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.

1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.

There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.

I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

Well... There was a release of Runequest two or something relatively recently.

But systems that are D100-based don't apply to the OSR anyway, as it's all about utilizing and adapting the 'post' d20 type mechanics from early D&D.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

Isn't OpenQuest exactly that?

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition

https://openquestrpg.com/srd/

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 12:26:38 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists

Isn't OpenQuest exactly that?

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition

https://openquestrpg.com/srd/

This is it... Also, most of the d100 mechanics have stayed pretty stagnant (and I mean that in a good way).

Open Quest is great, incidentally. There's also 'Magic World' that pretty much stays with the older style too.

And there's also a direct D&D type clone using the D100 mechanics instead, but it's basically a dungeon crawler with the old races elves, dwarves, and what have you. I can't think of the name of it at the mo'.