Quote from: Chris24601;1108076Even ability score increases don't measurably help... each one can net you a grant total of +1 to one save.

You get four and need two of them just to cap your class' key ability score

(This is actually an unstated reason why so many fighters build for Dexterity in 5e instead of Strength... they can use Dex for melee and ranged attacks, for their AC and to boost their non-proficient Dex save... or they can boost STR which has a handful of saves and lets them use weapons that might do 1 extra damage per attack vs. a dex-based weapon).

If feats are the in the game, forget about it, you'll get literally 6 times the benefit from a single feat (giving you proficiency in another save, but still leaving you with one common save that's hosed).

1a: Yes. But that allso applies to spell DCs. And both character bonus from stats for DCs and Saves cap at stat 20/+6. (with one notable exception before we get to any magic boosts beyond that.)

1b: um... you haven't actually played 5e then have you? Every class gets 5 ability score boosts. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 19. Fighters get another at 6 & 14 and Rogues get one at level 10, while Barbarians at level 20 get +4 to STR & CON.

1c: What fighters are these? I have never seen this or heard of it? Who would think something so stupid? Car-oppers? Min-Maxers? Theory-crafters who seem to never actually play? Also... again... you haven't actually played have you? DEX for any class using armour gets increasingly more useless. (could have sworn there was a feat that allowed you to bypass that. But seems not.)

The Rogue for example though does eventually gain proficiency in WIS saves. Some of the other classes get something like this too from class paths.

1d: er... what? Feats in 5e do not all grant stat bonuses or add more save profs. Those that do add a stat bonus tend to only add 1 point to a stat. Resilient allows you to gain a save proficiency if you ass the +1 to a stat you do not allready have a save prof in. You'd have to blow usually 4 of your 5 stat ups to cover every save prof and would gain only 4 more stat points instead of 8. Mage Slayer grants advantage on all saves vs spells cast by creatureswithin 5ft of the character. This is a tradeoff in stats vs feats a player has to weigh. Especially if the stat array is being used. Which is required for Adventurer League play.

There are though some class abilities that grant bonuses to saves. Such as the Bardic Inspiration ability.

x: Really. WTF?

Instead lets look at a real problem here instead of a virtually made up one. That being the ability of some classes or spells to either impose a disadvantage on saves, add a negative to a save (rare) or to bypass resistances. THIS is where some situations arise where things can go wayyyyy off the rails and end possibly badly for monster or PC. Sorcerers come to mind right off. In fact Sorcerers can potentially end up with elements of all the factors depending on how they are set up. Impose disadvantage on the save, bypass any resistance vs certain damage types, add more damage.

Probably some oddballs in the expansion books too.

Quote from: tenbones;1107232So... since you went back to 3.5, based on your response I have to ask - did you consider trying Fantasy Craft?

What's the difference between 1st and 2nd printing?
1st is cheap on Noble Knight.com.

I've run 5e 1-20 twice. Re saves, the thing is that failing a save in 5e is not like failing a save in 1e. It's almost never instant death, in fact it's expected that creatures & PCs will fail a lot of saves. There are a few spells like Hypnotic Pattern & Banishment that remove victims from combat on a failed save; even these have workarounds such as bash the wizard to disrupt, or shake the victim awake. These spells tend to be more powerful in the hands of PCs than NPCs, since NPCs rarely appear in balanced groups of casters & bashers.

My current Epic-20 game, a new player brought in a Paladin, and with CHA now +6 that gives +6 to all ally saves in 30'. The result is that PCs with proficient saves & good attribute tend to be saving on a 2 (I'm using 1 fails & 20 succeeds) and non-proficient with mediocre attribute make their saves around half the time.

Quote from: Aglondir;1108181I've been looking at FC for some time now, since I like VP/WP and the FC classes rock. As soon as I can snag a good copy on Ebay.

It is my opinion that *anyone* that enjoys 3.x/PF as a GM, that pores over the FC tome and actually puts in the effort to let it sink in - will never look back. I wish you luck on your search!

Quote from: Aglondir;1108205What's the difference between 1st and 2nd printing?
1st is cheap on Noble Knight.com.

ALWAYS go 2nd printing. They fixed a lot of the errata that came out after 1st. Also! Purchase The Adventurers Companion too. It's basically a TON of stuff they simply couldn't pack into the main book. And it has about four mini-campaign settings inside it plus a ton of good classes and supporting Feats and gear etc. I rate this book as a *MUST HAVE* alongside the core book.

Those are the only two books you'll ever need.

Quote from: S'mon;1108227My current Epic-20 game, a new player brought in a Paladin, and with CHA now +6 that gives +6 to all ally saves in 30'. The result is that PCs with proficient saves & good attribute tend to be saving on a 2 (I'm using 1 fails & 20 succeeds) and non-proficient with mediocre attribute make their saves around half the time.

I've had 4 paladins out of over 20 characters. That ratio might be why I haven't seen a problem.  There is definitely a "run and hide next to the paladin when the nasty effects start coming out" thing.  Well, except for fireballs and the like, which make such tactics kind of a bad idea.  Then it's scatter and pick up the pieces of the poor character that bravely draws the fire.  Ooh boy did a rogue and barbarian get the short end of that stick last weekend.  First time I've seen a 9th level barbarian lose 2/3 of his hit points in one blast.

Quote from: tenbones;1108274ALWAYS go 2nd printing. They fixed a lot of the errata that came out after 1st. Also! Purchase The Adventurers Companion too. It's basically a TON of stuff they simply couldn't pack into the main book. And it has about four mini-campaign settings inside it plus a ton of good classes and supporting Feats and gear etc. I rate this book as a *MUST HAVE* alongside the core book.

Those are the only two books you'll ever need.

   And there's only one other book available in print. There are some class options and a Hammer Horror-style adventure that are PDF-only.

   I own and have read FantasyCraft and the Adventure Companion, and I respect it as probably the epitome of what 3E and PF tried to be ... but I think it's probably just a bit too rich for my tastes nowadays, and/or I'm too old to internalize it.

yeah, that internalization issue is a thing. Especially these days when from my perspective there are many other ways to skin-that-cat without having to digest FC.

You have to *want* to play 3.x style gaming.

If I ever go back to it - I'll pull FC out. But I don't know the circumstances under which that will happen without my group pushing me for it, for the exact reasons you cited.

Quote from: tenbones;1108273It is my opinion that *anyone* that enjoys 3.x/PF as a GM, that pores over the FC tome and actually puts in the effort to let it sink in - will never look back.

Yeah, FC is legitimately kick-ass. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who lacks a general fondness for D20 games, too.

I honestly wished they would have taken some queues from FC when designing 5e. The reality is the guts of FC is quite small in size (it just looks daunting because it's a PHB/DMG/MM all in one book). But there are mechanical rigor applied to its core elements that would have made 5e *really* shine.

I'll even go on the record to say I prefer FC to 5e if I had to make a choice - and I'd do so without hesitation. The attempts at tossing bones to all of the different editions is what makes 5e weird and less than what it could be. It's probably unavoidable.

Quote from: Omega;11081981b: um... you haven't actually played 5e then have you? Every class gets 5 ability score boosts. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 19. Fighters get another at 6 & 14 and Rogues get one at level 10, while Barbarians at level 20 get +4 to STR & CON.

I have played it actually. It was a year ago though and I don't own the books on account of refusing to pay WotC money so am going off memory. I remembered every four levels but not level 20 so I went off 4, 8, 12, 16 to get four. Forgive me for going from memory instead of handing the SJWs at WotC money to be 100% accurate. The point remains that there's not enough ASIs, particularly if trading them off for feats is an option, to make them a valid alternative to fix the gaping holes in the saving throw math at high levels.

As to the Dex fighters... yeah, they were a thing in my area. Their net AC was 17 (studded leather + Dex 20) vs. an AC 18 for plate armor (and Dex doesn't apply). They also got +5 to their Dex save and +5 to their initiative, acrobatics and stealth checks, ranged weapon attacks/damage in addition to with finesse weapons (which, since they're one-handed by definition, can either be dual wielded with your bonus action or you can carry a shield for +2 AC). Throw in whatever the feat was that gave you proficiency in another save (and choose Wisdom) and you've actually got your bases mostly covered for attacks and defenses. And that's before you add magic into the mix. With the way carry capacity worked in 5e even an 8 Str is enough to carry 120 lb. of gear without being slowed down and your armor is about 50 lb. lighter than the STR fighter's to boot with no disadvantage to stealth.

Putting your best score in Strength meant is wasn't doing double duty covering a common save (Dex, Con and Wis), didn't help with ranged attacks. In exchange you eventually get plate armor for +1 AC over the Dex fighter, a better athletics score, and can wield melee weapons that do about 1 extra damage on average per hit while sucking at ranged attacks.

Quote1d: er... what? Feats in 5e do not all grant stat bonuses or add more save profs.

I never said they did. But to get a feat you have to give up the Ability Score Increase at that level. Which makes more sense? Spend an ASI on bumping an 8 ability score to a 10 (+1 to saves with it) or picking up the feat that gives you proficiency in a save and nets you a +2-6 modifier to the save for one ASI. Or pick something else that useful because you're always going to be hosed on that ability save as it is.

QuoteMage Slayer grants advantage on all saves vs spells cast by creatureswithin 5ft of the character. This is a tradeoff in stats vs feats a player has to weigh. Especially if the stat array is being used. Which is required for Adventurer League play.

Advantage is awesome for certain things... fixing the really poor saves at high levels isn't one of them. If you're only playing the low levels where the save DCs are 11-15 or so then giving advantage to someone with a +0 or even -1 ability score on that save can really help them. If you need to roll a 21 on a 20-sided die with a +0 to the roll, rolling twice isn't going to help at all.

5e's math is entirely held together by spit, bailing wire and the goodwill of the players/DMs.

Quote from: Chris24601;1108452I have played it actually. It was a year ago though and I don't own the books on account of refusing to pay WotC money so am going off memory. I remembered every four levels but not level 20 so I went off 4, 8, 12, 16 to get four. Forgive me for going from memory instead of handing the SJWs at WotC money to be 100% accurate. The point remains that there's not enough ASIs, particularly if trading them off for feats is an option, to make them a valid alternative to fix the gaping holes in the saving throw math at high levels.

As to the Dex fighters... yeah, they were a thing in my area. Their net AC was 17 (studded leather + Dex 20) vs. an AC 18 for plate armor (and Dex doesn't apply). They also got +5 to their Dex save and +5 to their initiative, acrobatics and stealth checks, ranged weapon attacks/damage in addition to with finesse weapons (which, since they're one-handed by definition, can either be dual wielded with your bonus action or you can carry a shield for +2 AC). Throw in whatever the feat was that gave you proficiency in another save (and choose Wisdom) and you've actually got your bases mostly covered for attacks and defenses. And that's before you add magic into the mix. With the way carry capacity worked in 5e even an 8 Str is enough to carry 120 lb. of gear without being slowed down and your armor is about 50 lb. lighter than the STR fighter's to boot with no disadvantage to stealth.

Putting your best score in Strength meant is wasn't doing double duty covering a common save (Dex, Con and Wis), didn't help with ranged attacks. In exchange you eventually get plate armor for +1 AC over the Dex fighter, a better athletics score, and can wield melee weapons that do about 1 extra damage on average per hit while sucking at ranged attacks.


I never said they did. But to get a feat you have to give up the Ability Score Increase at that level. Which makes more sense? Spend an ASI on bumping an 8 ability score to a 10 (+1 to saves with it) or picking up the feat that gives you proficiency in a save and nets you a +2-6 modifier to the save for one ASI. Or pick something else that useful because you're always going to be hosed on that ability save as it is.


Advantage is awesome for certain things... fixing the really poor saves at high levels isn't one of them. If you're only playing the low levels where the save DCs are 11-15 or so then giving advantage to someone with a +0 or even -1 ability score on that save can really help them. If you need to roll a 21 on a 20-sided die with a +0 to the roll, rolling twice isn't going to help at all.

5e's math is entirely held together by spit, bailing wire and the goodwill of the players/DMs.

I've made heavy armor (and thus Strength) more attractive by ruling that magic armor (unless it specifies otherwise) is 50% heavy armor, 30% medium armor, and 20% light armor. I let my players know this up front.

It's a bit depressing how good the combo of Rapier with Dueling style and Shield is for the sword and board style fighter.

Because it doesn't feel like it's meant to work that way.

But of course if you have the system knowledge to know that you're probably going to be bored playing the Fighter anyway.

Quote from: Chris24601;1108452Advantage is awesome for certain things... fixing the really poor saves at high levels isn't one of them. If you're only playing the low levels where the save DCs are 11-15 or so then giving advantage to someone with a +0 or even -1 ability score on that save can really help them. If you need to roll a 21 on a 20-sided die with a +0 to the roll, rolling twice isn't going to help at all.

5e's math is entirely held together by spit, bailing wire and the goodwill of the players/DMs.

1: True. The bigger the margin for error, the more oomph you get out of advantage or disadvantage. But that is one more chance to roll a 1 which is allways a fail. Also note I underlined the "within 5 ft" part to emphasize just how little this feat does. Not that it is a great feat.

But as noted there is bardic inspiration which does add numbers to the save roll. a d6 and growing slowly from there to a d12.

2: Not quite. But it overfocuses on balancing one thing and misses other elements.

x: Looking at it is may be that the problem is not that saves scale poorly. They scale fairly well. But that they scale really fast!
Right out the gate a caster using array and taking a standard human will have a save DC of 13 (8+2+3). By level 5 that has likely jumped to 15 (8+3+4) At level 10 its probably creeping up to 17 (8+4+5). The PCs save rolls may be climbing as well. Or not.

I understand what you are trying to get at. That without a prof save bonus or stats, a PC or monsters saves drop off. But it seems to be intentional. And others did point this issue out during late playtest.

One suggestion was removing the stat bonus on the save DC. Looking back. That might have been what needed to be done. And/Or at say level 10 add another save prof.

On the other hand it can lend some role play elements. Studying a foe to try and figure out what their weaknesses may be and then hammering them with spells they will have the hardest time resisting.

Quote from: TJS;1108460It's a bit depressing how good the combo of Rapier with Dueling style and Shield is for the sword and board style fighter.

Because it doesn't feel like it's meant to work that way.

But of course if you have the system knowledge to know that you're probably going to be bored playing the Fighter anyway.

Maybe it's just my game, but I find that front line fighters who dump STR for DEX are really regretting it when they're rolling -1 on Athletics checks vs being grappled, shoved, knocked prone et al.