Quote from: Lunamancer;1107478The thing I liked least about 5E from my play experience is character creation. Too many options and page flipping just to make a first level character. This is exacerbated by the philosophical aversion to subtraction the game seems to have. It's like trying to order a meal at a restaurant. That comes with soup or salad. Salad. Ranch of vinaigrette? Vinaigrette. Raspberry or balsamic? Enough with the long form application. I said I wanted a steak, get me a steak.

I can't just say "I wanna play a cleric." I got a sphere, and a background, and a skill selection, et cetera etcetera. Why can't there just be a regular old cleric, and if I want to play some sort of specialty priest or cleric of specific god, the rules can say something like "Okay, you give up the ability to turn undead, but you get three singing chipmunk companions" or whatever. Nope. Can't do that. Can't subtract that turn undead power. We gotta strip down the class to a Mr. Potato Head, and you get to spend a whole ton of time accessorizing it, with a lot of page-flipping if you aren't familiar with the rules.

My next biggest gripe I didn't have to experience first hand, but the special abilities classes acquired at higher levels were cringe-worthy. Level 17 fighters regenerating 10 hp a round is beyond silly.

The lack of differentiation of skill levels bugged me at first. But then I realized, when you account for the fighters weapon specialty, doubling the proficiency bonus, it kind of syncs up loosely with the old 1st Ed hit tables. And that worked really well. And would work well in 5E, too, if it weren't for the aversion to probabilities going close to 1 and 0. It seems like the system is designed around keeping probability of success in the 35-70% range. Whereas in 1E, by 9th level fighters have virtually guaranteed hits against the majority of monsters in the game. And between 1st and 9th the game progresses from being like craps to being like chess. It provides a range of different play styles, and it's not that hard to focus on a level range your group finds the most fun. Or just traverse the full range if you prefer.

That probability you're detecting is 5e's bounded accuracy, where everything is designed to still be a threat throughout the game, instead of goblins basically being literally impossible to hurt you.

Luckily that's easily to fix by just changing what monsters the players face.

I like your idea of a "simple class," kind of like Fighter with the champion subclass, but for every class. A default. It's funny you say this since the recent trend has been people saying 5e is too simple and that Pathfinder 2 offers all the customization 5e is missing.

Quote from: Doom;1107372Some ridiculous here.

1) AD&D didn't have ranged healing at first level, and even the most generous "0 hp" rules allowed a character to die when knocked to -10, whereas in 5e characters don't drop to negative (so even the very weak healing of Healing Word is all you need no matter how much the character got knocked to 0). Yes, there are some coup-de-gras rules, but realistically most monsters simply can't hit hard enough to kill a character past a few levels, only knock him to zero. So, the giant can drop a boulder on a character, who's brought back to 1hp...another boulder, another 1hp. I can see how some might find that silly, though I use exhaustion as a house rule so at least the boulders will eventually tire a character out.

2) Correct, shield only lasts one round. But you have lots of spare spell slots, it's a reaction, and you only get it when you need it or feel like having it. Toss in that you can easily get an AC better than the fighter at low levels and...yeah, that's a bit much. The "only get it when you feel like having it" is the big deal, since you might not use a level 1 spell slot every round (and if you run out, you get the option to use a higher slot) as monsters can miss, or simply give and instead go after targets in chain mail, since they're easier to hit...just use it when you want to. Yes, mages are vulnerable in melee, but only after at least 4 rounds of bad luck...in other words, they aren't vulnerable at all unless the player really works to keep himself in melee round after round after round.

4) I didn't know Disengage lets you automatically escape any grapple. Where does it say that? Note that Disengage will use up your attack (unless you're a rogue), while Misty Step is a bonus action, so you'll get to attack as well. And, again, you only use this when you feel like it, so not exactly a burden to have.

7) Eliminate the infinite use spells, eliminate the short rest ability to regain spell slots, and eliminate the free use rituals...and 5e wizards have fewer spells than AD&D wizards. Heh, and? Noting that at level 20 under these assumptions you might sort-of have a weak point...but most of the game is played at levels far below that.  If you eliminate 80% of fighter's HP, they have fewer HPs than any other class...a normal response to such an argument would be "and?" as well.

Really, not much of a counter-argument here at all, sorry.

x: Yes indeed. And you just keep on giving the ridiculous. Bravo.

1: Um. You apparently missed the part where every hit on a downed character counts as a critical hit AND counts as two failed saves didn't you? The lowly bullywug can exterminate a PC.
Lets say a storm giant drops the rock. That is 28 average damage doubled to 56. Which is enough to flat out kill most PCs up to possibly level 10. More or less if you roll the dice.
Instead look at the monsters that cannot either hit more than once a round, or cannot output alot of damage in one go. Which happens to be most low level monsters. Gosh. They are having a hard time killing a high level character? What outrage! hmm. Except they can gang up on the downed character and off them in one to two rounds.

Yes. It is a stupid rule. No one has said it is not. We've bashed it to death right out the gate and even during final playtest.

2: Except your example was for tanking... Not situational one-offs. Different things. Try again please.

4: Nice goal post moving there with your misty step.

7: Oh goodie. You played both the old worn out "But no one plays over level 10!" card and the equally worn out "But these count too!" card. Bravo on your failure. But we can play your game. If cantrips and rituals count then I guess for AD&D throwing darts and resting to recover a few spells counts too? Right? Because combat cantrips are essentially magic darts and crossbows, and you can rest and recover spells in AD&D. It takes longer. But you can recover as many as you are willing to spend time meditating on. Usually a prohibitive maneuver. But totally valid.

Instead lets look at that end game you dismissed. Because here is where the 5e wizard really overtakes the AD&D one. Because at level 18 the wizard gains the ability to cast one signature 1st and 2nd level spell AT WILL. Yes they are at their basic level of power. But a wizard at this point becomes a magic missile chaingun. Name yourself Sandman and blanket a town in sleep by just walking around and casting willy nilly. Or become a living flamethrower casting scorching ray at will. Play spider Man and web a whole city.

x+1: No kidding. You failed at just about every step even when cherrypicking.

Psst! Unconscious condition requires an attack to be within 5 feet before it grants being a Critical. And it is being a Critical hit that grants 2 failed Death Saves. So before you two go at each other in a pedantic grudge match, please reconsider for everyone else here in this topic. Thank you!

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1107460Nowadays you're supposed to only roll perception when you do a deep dive on checking something out, not general awareness.

Exactly! That's why "Find Secret Doors" was the Perception in Old School D&D. It was for finding secret stuff, not noticing stuff in the open.

You tell them there's a letter on the fireplace mantle when they enter the room...because its a trap! Or might be a trap. Or its fun to make players paranoid. Either way, drawing the players attention to the letter on the mantle lets you surprise attack them easier when nobody looks inside the fireplace!

Quote from: Aglondir;1107473You're right! It annoys me to no end, but I can't get them to stop.

There's a simple but not easy fix to this.  I go through it with almost every new players until I break them of the habit.  Don't let them declare the roll, for any skill, ever.  They tell you what they want to accomplish.  You decide who needs to roll, and what roll it is, if any.  If there is a roll, ask them to roll it.  Either way, narrate the results.  

If they persist in rolling first, then do something like:  "That nice.  Now what are you trying to accomplish?  OK, give me a roll for that."  Usually, it doesn't go that far with me.  I merely state to the group that they don't declare the rolls--over and over until it sinks in.

Quote from: Omega;1107493Instead lets look at that end game you dismissed. Because here is where the 5e wizard really overtakes the AD&D one. Because at level 18 the wizard gains the ability to cast one signature 1st and 2nd level spell AT WILL. Yes they are at their basic level of power. But a wizard at this point becomes a magic missile chaingun. Name yourself Sandman and blanket a town in sleep by just walking around and casting willy nilly. Or become a living flamethrower casting scorching ray at will. Play spider Man and web a whole city.

Alright let's optimize properly. Your 1st level spell is shield and your second level spell is Misty Step. You now have +5 AC and teleport at will.

Now the best Wizard actually starts out as a fighter then takes 18 levels of Wizard and then one more of fighter. See the fighter action surge bypasses the one spell per turn limit, which makes it a far better capstone.

Now you start fighter to have con save Prof, plate, defense style, and a shield. Which all stacks with the shield spell. Before even magical items your at-will shield spell buffs your AC to 26. That's before layering any other buff spell.

Huh, and I thought optimized at-will 1st & 2nd Lvl is Charm Person & Suggestion... Silly me! (Eh, once you are over 10th lvl D&D got habitually unwieldy over the editions. )

Quote from: Opaopajr;1107610Huh, and I thought optimized at-will 1st & 2nd Lvl is Charm Person & Suggestion... Silly me! (Eh, once you are over 10th lvl D&D got habitually unwieldy over the editions. )

Depends on your DM, oddly all the high level challenges are where no other mortal is willing to go.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1107501Psst! Unconscious condition requires an attack to be within 5 feet before it grants being a Critical. And it is being a Critical hit that grants 2 failed Death Saves. So before you two go at each other in a pedantic grudge match, please reconsider for everyone else here in this topic. Thank you!

Hush you. I am waiting for his next bout of pedantry so I can spring my next trap. :cool:

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1107490That probability you're detecting is 5e's bounded accuracy, where everything is designed to still be a threat throughout the game, instead of goblins basically being literally impossible to hurt you.

Yeah, I get what it's doing. I've even had people tell me how this is scientifically more fun and linked me to psychology research, and further argue if this is what casinos do. And I'm like, meh. There's just a lot of stuff that's left out of this equation. Like the context. A hail Mary pass at the end of a football game is exciting. Only 2.5% of them result in a touch down. But they're still attractive because they are used in situations where there is nothing left to lose yet offer that small probability of winning. Players certainly can make similar decisions throughout the game.

A lone goblin may launch a hail mary strike at an armored knight. A goblin (19 THAC0) with a short sword (-3 vs plate & shield) versus a 0th level human in plate and shield (AC 2) needs a 20 to hit. Suppose the human has 4 hp. The goblin then needs a 4 or better on the d6 damage roll. That puts the odds at about 2.5%. If the goblin is cornered and has nothing to lose, why not go for a hail Mary strike.

The 5E motif is something like, make that hit probability a lot more common, to say 30%, just within that 30-70 zone. Now adjust the knight's hit points upwards 6-fold (or have a really generous negative hit point system that has similar effect) to counter the goblin's 6-fold hit probability increase. So all told, in terms of the "expected number" of attacks the goblin will need to take to fell the fighting man will be roughly the same. It's just that now there is zero chance of coming up with a one-hit-kill hail Mary strike. That's the excitement that gets lost in the science. And it's not something that can be fixed by adding a Hail Mary Strike feat.

QuoteI like your idea of a "simple class," kind of like Fighter with the champion subclass, but for every class. A default. It's funny you say this since the recent trend has been people saying 5e is too simple and that Pathfinder 2 offers all the customization 5e is missing.

One inescapable fact is, the more detail and more options you have, the more time it takes to plan and create your character. And that's time that could be spent playing the game.

Some people really just would rather plan to play RPGs, think about playing RPGs, or talk about playing RPGs than actually play RPGs. As a life long DM, I fall prey to this myself often. Of my entire game group, for instance, I'm the only one who posts on any internet forum anywhere about RPGs. Most real gamers will never grace these or any other pages, never let their opinions be known, and WotC doesn't know the first thing about them. And I don't think the opinions or preferences of me or anyone else necessarily syncs up with them.

Most of what i consider big problems with 5th edition can be house ruled away easily. Even the DMG has optional rules for using ability checks over skill checks.

Beyond that, the biggest problem I've personally had with 5th Edition is the culture of its players and the unyielding attitude many have on maintaining balance, fairness, and a dependence on rules as written. I much prefer a game where the GM can be adaptable by making informed rulings based on the situation and use house rules that help to portray a certain setting or style of play.

Secondary, I just don't like the class system, because I feel wotc has taken lengths to ensure every class is competent in combat. I prefer classes that have a specific role in the game. You need the Rogue to explore safely. You need the Magic User to have spells  that create on the spot solutions through preparedness. You need a fighter to crush some skulls when things get violent. You need a cleric for support, and to be the face of the party when alignment becomes a factor for the purposes of social encounters. Everyone gets to shine and each class' function is baked into the system.

All this can be fixed with the right group, which is easy to say if you live in the Americas or Europe. In my timezone (Oceania), it's not easy to find groups that play anything outside of mainstream games. Even when you check roll20, or other VTTs, rarely do you see games listed using anything but pathfinder or 5th edition. The occasional PbtA, Genesis, Vampire, or Cypher System game might pop up but I'm not fond of story games too much. I like the OSR style and it just isn't a thing here, though perhaps I'm not looking hard enough.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1107691The 5E motif is something like, make that hit probability a lot more common, to say 30%, just within that 30-70 zone. Now adjust the knight's hit points upwards 6-fold (or have a really generous negative hit point system that has similar effect) to counter the goblin's 6-fold hit probability increase. So all told, in terms of the "expected number" of attacks the goblin will need to take to fell the fighting man will be roughly the same. It's just that now there is zero chance of coming up with a one-hit-kill hail Mary strike. That's the excitement that gets lost in the science. And it's not something that can be fixed by adding a Hail Mary Strike feat.

The equivalent of the 1e F0 with 4 hp is a 5e Guard with 11 hp, while the equivalent of a 1e Goblin doing d6 is a 5e Goblin doing d6+2 damage. 5e Goblin ATT +4, vs 5e Plate & Shield AC 20. So hit on a 16+, or 1 in 4. But 1 in 20 chance of a crit doing 2d6+2. The chance of an immediate kill is a bit lower, but the chance of killing in 2-3 rounds is much higher.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1107478The thing I liked least about 5E from my play experience is character creation. Too many options and page flipping just to make a first level character. This is exacerbated by the philosophical aversion to subtraction the game seems to have. It's like trying to order a meal at a restaurant. That comes with soup or salad. Salad. Ranch of vinaigrette? Vinaigrette. Raspberry or balsamic? Enough with the long form application. I said I wanted a steak, get me a steak.

I can't just say "I wanna play a cleric." I got a sphere, and a background, and a skill selection, et cetera etcetera. Why can't there just be a regular old cleric, and if I want to play some sort of specialty priest or cleric of specific god, the rules can say something like "Okay, you give up the ability to turn undead, but you get three singing chipmunk companions" or whatever. Nope. Can't do that. Can't subtract that turn undead power. We gotta strip down the class to a Mr. Potato Head, and you get to spend a whole ton of time accessorizing it, with a lot of page-flipping if you aren't familiar with the rules.

This. I don't want to build-a-character at the Character-Building-Buffet, I want to roll up a few stats, think about what that suggests and go forward, you know with my imagination. I can do that with 5E I expect but too much mucking about to get there.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;1107702This. I don't want to build-a-character at the Character-Building-Buffet, I want to roll up a few stats, think about what that suggests and go forward, you know with my imagination. I can do that with 5E I expect but too much mucking about to get there.

Rolling stats in order solves many problems.

Quote from: Omega;1107688Hush you. I am waiting for his next bout of pedantry so I can spring my next trap. :cool:

Heh, like the trap where you claim a level 20 wizard has fewer spells, which you reinforce as true by pointing out a level 18 wizard has more? Damn, dude, I know better than try to pierce that logic. You've humiliated yourself sufficiently, I'll let you go though if Rhedyn wants to embarrass you some more, I have popcorn.