Quote from: Omega;1108645At what point. And why more HP at the start when in 5e the PCs allready start out with more? I mean the recurring bitching across fora has been that there is too much HP. Adding another bonus early on is just going to throw it off kilter. Even more hilariously pathetic is that the PCs have more HP because you the players bitched that they did not have enough HP!

It's right there in the posts, not too far up.  I know you can do the math.  The one I suggested has hit points matching the standard somewhere between 3rd and 5th level, depending upon what options are selected, and then rapidly declining thereafter.  Tenbones version is much the same.  In the exact same posts are discussions of some of the things you think you are telling us about as if we didn't know.

It is as if you read the words we wrote, but the thoughts in them made no impression on your brain.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1108651More whiff and less HP? Alter the Ability Modifier Progression, unequally even!, with larger gaps of no bonus.

And then we are tight back to the incessant bitching about "oh noes! I missed three times in a row! END OF THE WORLD!" and "Oh noes! I got killed by a kobold with a dagger! END OF THE WORLD!"

So we'll have to fix the fix which fixed the fix that these morons demanded be fixed.

So fuck you all. Im just going to roll on the Wandering Damage Table instead! :cool:

It occurs to me that you could tweak it slightly so that Strength adds to Max HP mod but Con adds to HP recovery mod.

So a Level 2 Fighter with 18 Str + 10 Con would have 24 total hps but would only gain 1d10 back for each hit dice rolled during a short rest.

If doing this I would probably use the rules variant that you can only recover HP by rolling Hit Dice.

This is the minimalist approach that requires the least maths changes.

Quote from: TJS;1108676If doing this I would probably use the rules variant that you can only recover HP by rolling Hit Dice.

This is the minimalist approach that requires the least maths changes.

That one change, if you're referring to LR not topping off the HP tanks, has been enough for me. I'm OK with the idea of lots of hit points and of whittling them down, but I'm not OK with the idea that all damage disappears after every LR.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1108601I think we can talk good point here, bad point there with just about any system, but most of that gets dwarfed by what happens when that good group and/or good GM get annoyed as hell by something in the system.  After that, we are headed for the exits.  Might be a slow exit, but it is coming.  

I can intellectually talk about pros and cons of all versions of D&D, but when I'm going to pick the thing that I'll put the effort into running, I'm forced to admit that there are raw edges to 2E, 3E, and 4E that just rub me the wrong way, even out of proportion to what it takes to run them.  Though I've never been a perfect for for any version of D&D--merely close enough to bend them to a game I'll run.

Yes true the only way you'll get your perfect game is to make it yourself. And even then, you'll probably change your mind about something a couple years later.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1108677That one change, if you're referring to LR not topping off the HP tanks, has been enough for me. I'm OK with the idea of lots of hit points and of whittling them down, but I'm not OK with the idea that all damage disappears after every LR.

This is me too. Lots of hp isnt a problem (it's just an indicator you are playing an attrition style game, with regular moderate threat fights, as opposed to say a shadowrun kill or be killed firefight which happens once/session). The problem with 5e is that if you actually get reduced to zero hp, it's meaningless. Pop healing word or a potion and its like it never happened. Or indeed if you die pop revivify. Takes all the danger (and consequently the fun) out of the game. And yeah the standard long rest is ridiculously generous, making it even more difficult to sap the party's resources.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1108689This is me too. Lots of hp isnt a problem (it's just an indicator you are playing an attrition style game, with regular moderate threat fights, as opposed to say a shadowrun kill or be killed firefight which happens once/session). The problem with 5e is that if you actually get reduced to zero hp, it's meaningless. Pop healing word or a potion and its like it never happened. Or indeed if you die pop revivify. Takes all the danger (and consequently the fun) out of the game. And yeah the standard long rest is ridiculously generous, making it even more difficult to sap the party's resources.

Common house rule for this is:
- Get reduced to 0hp, gain a level of exhaustion.
- Failed a Death Save, gain another.

Quote from: TJS;1108692Common house rule for this is:
- Get reduced to 0hp, gain a level of exhaustion.
- Failed a Death Save, gain another.

Yes.  Some variation of that, coupled with scaling the default rests back a bit (either in frequency or effect) and/or mixed with no natural healing except via hit dice--and you are most of the way to something close to BECMI/RC with a small chunk of bonus hit points at level 1.  It's not as if you even need to house rule to get most of it.  The DMG options aren't perfect, but they'll do most of the heavy lifting.  Then slab a little house rule on top of that to get closer to perfect.

It is far easier to fix this in 5E than it is to make early editions less deadly.  Not that the early editions were all that terrible, though some of the options were clunky.  Rather, the scaling of danger via options is one of things that 5E got right in the design.

Quote from: TJS;1108692Common house rule for this is:
- Get reduced to 0hp, gain a level of exhaustion.
- Failed a Death Save, gain another.

I mentioned that earlier. Exhaustion would be a good fit for being taken to 0hp and it has a built in stacking system even so you can only go down and pop up so many times.

Quote from: Omega;1108734I mentioned that earlier. Exhaustion would be a good fit for being taken to 0hp and it has a built in stacking system even so you can only go down and pop up so many times.

Seems like a good fix.

The problem with hitting them with Exhaustion is that (and I've used this before) it encourages the 15 minute adventuring day.

Went down once? Time to camp!

If the player characters get exhausted at 0 HP, but their enemies die at 0 HP; that's too fake for me.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1108842The problem with hitting them with Exhaustion is that (and I've used this before) it encourages the 15 minute adventuring day.

Went down once? Time to camp!

That's circular logic.  If you have the 15 minute adventuring day, then it is because you are running the type of game where it would have also been a problem using AD&D.  Either characters have some means to partially bounce back from being hurt, or they don't.  To the extent that they don't, they'll want to get somewhere safe and cope with it when they are hurt enough.  Once you move the game towards "depleting resources over time" (whatever version of the game and whatever house rules you use), then the responsibility moves back on you as the GM to set up situations where the characters will want to continue while so depleted.

A GM can pull some stunts to set up the illusion of being depleted without them actually being depleted, and thus escape that circle.  At least for a little time.  Eventually, as with all illusionism techniques, you'll drop the ball and the whole thing will splatter.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1108871That's circular logic.  If you have the 15 minute adventuring day, then it is because you are running the type of game where it would have also been a problem using AD&D.  Either characters have some means to partially bounce back from being hurt, or they don't.  To the extent that they don't, they'll want to get somewhere safe and cope with it when they are hurt enough.  Once you move the game towards "depleting resources over time" (whatever version of the game and whatever house rules you use), then the responsibility moves back on you as the GM to set up situations where the characters will want to continue while so depleted.

A GM can pull some stunts to set up the illusion of being depleted without them actually being depleted, and thus escape that circle.  At least for a little time.  Eventually, as with all illusionism techniques, you'll drop the ball and the whole thing will splatter.

I feel the same about "long rest = 1 week" "short rest = 1 day", it doesn't really solve the problem.

Kevin Crawford's systems seem to handle this well, you can be brought back from 0 HP, but if you get knock down there again before a long rest, you die. The exact details change from system to system but one example is in Stars Without Number, healing is pretty easy to do but eats system strain, which recharges at a rate of 1 per day. He seems to be of the logic that your Party can have high action days if they plan for them but it will have a strategic cost.

The reason that the 5E design has hit points, hit dice, two types of rests, and exhaustion, is that no one of those things can solve all the problems for everyone.  In fact, if you analyze what most groups are trying to achieve, you'll need at least 3 of them, and often all of them.  

So no, applying one tweak here or there will not make the game magically do exactly what you want. All of those things together are a subsystem that has to be considered in its entirety.  Granted, 5E does a lousy job of making that clear, scatting it all over the place, and setting the defaults near one of the extremes.  But it isn't rocket science.