Quote from: Benoist;439482Told you, thedungeondelver hacked my account.

I knew it!

Quote from: CRKrueger;439502The idea that 1-3 ogres isn't a challenging encounter for a first-level party because they are assumed to have hirelings and henchmen with them is just crazy.

That's not what AM said! He did NOT say that the encounter would "not be challenging." He said it would not be unwinnable. With or without hirelings, and especially with hirelings.

All of which is true.

Quote from: Aos;439380Did you know in the Weismuller Tarzan movies they attached prosthetic ears to Indian elephants to make them look like African elephants?

How strange.  Were they worried about offending all those pre-teen elephant experts in the audience?  

Quote from: Aos;439345Especially once i found myself in the ghost mall.

Ghost mall!!!  I must find a way to use this concept.

Quote from: Seanchai;439317I don't think Encounters will end up having much of an impact on D&D.

For many gamers with limited time, I suspect Encounters is becoming their RPG-time.  And since it is a regular time at a regular place, that allows for easier scheduling...and habit building.  It becomes the equivalent of poker night or the bowling league but with less commitment.

Quote from: jgants;439390Furthermore - the Men and Magic book actually discusses capturing monsters, breaking their morale, and getting them to join your forces (sort of a stockholm syndrome deal I guess).  It's very clear that one of the original assumptions of how D&D was to be played involved large groups of people moving around the countryside.

No doubt.  You have 6 stats and one of them is all about the henchmen.  In OD&D, AD&D, Blue Book, Red Book, 2e (and their clones) every player section has a CHA section devoted to henchmen.

"Classic D&D = Henchmen as SOP" is very clear.

Quote from: jgants;439390D&D kept changing to adapt to how people actually liked to play instead of how the rules assumed they would play.

Very true.   It's one of the reasons I prefer 4e to 3e...and why I prefer OD&D to AD&D.

Quote from: Benoist;439505That's not what AM said! He did NOT say that the encounter would "not be challenging." He said it would not be unwinnable. With or without hirelings, and especially with hirelings.

All of which is true.

Yeah, but that's not the part anyone was bitching about,  I took out an Ogre single-handed with a 0-level Dwarf.  The issue was the implication that hirelings were going to be there.

Quote from: AM in post 373You could probably count on a squad of 10 light footmen (or even heavy footmen) with a sergeant..augmenting the party as the front line.

Quote from: AM in post 380It's AD&D. You get hirelings. Don't leave home without em!

Quote from: AM in post 382This is one of the baseline assumptions of older editions of D&D.

Thinking that a party may have a squad of 10 hirelings is one thing, thinking that encounter tables were written assuming they would be there, is, as I said, just fucking crazy.  (Actually it wasn't crazy, it was very well done.)

Quote from: CRKrueger;439509Yeah, but that's not the part anyone was bitching about,  I took out an Ogre single-handed with a 0-level Dwarf.  The issue was the implication that hirelings were going to be there.

Thinking that a party may have a squad of 10 hirelings is one thing, thinking that encounter tables were written assuming they would be there, is, as I said, just fucking crazy.  (Actually it wasn't crazy, it was very well done.)

YUp that was why I got my heckles up. Quite why I have hung round for 98 trillion posts is of course open to question.

Quote from: CRKrueger;439509The issue was the implication that hirelings were going to be there.

Which is why we were having the discussion:

   Is the use of hirelings/henchmen part of the AD&D baseline?

Which to me is a definite yes, with the particulars being entirely up to the way the campaign milieu is set up and the players choose to handle it.

AND

   Were people actually playing that way?

Which to me is a definite yes for many (among which the very people who actually designed the game, like EGG playing multiple characters with retinues with Rob Kuntz, or Rob Kuntz and his orcs trying to get in the Tomb of Horrors), and a definite no for many others.

Quote from: CRKrueger;439509Thinking that a party may have a squad of 10 hirelings is one thing, thinking that encounter tables were written assuming they would be there, is, as I said, just fucking crazy.

Did anybody explicitly say "the encounter tables were written assuming you'd have 10 spearmen?" I don't think so. I think they were designed with both contingencies in mind (i.e. not "10 spearmen" exactly, but with both parties with and without hirelings in mind), personally.

Quote from: CRKrueger;439502I'm not pointing this out because I want to stick it to AM, I point it out because that's what he was doing.  Doom's the one who wants to stick it to AM.

See, if Ben had said THAT, instead of it being about 4e, I'd be hard pressed to deny it. Anyone else spew such crap, I probably would have let it go with just a few posts...and hopefully no fool white knights would have shown up to defend the indefensible.

I'm still a little vague on how Gygax not expecting Kuntz to show up with an army is proof that Gygax was expecting Kuntz to show up with an army because such was something to count on, but I have to admit some fatigue here.

Gee whiz. The hirelings/henchmen won't die. Isn't there another thread for this?

Quote from: 1989;439517Gee whiz. The hirelings/henchmen won't die. Isn't there another thread for this?

At least you have established that the probem with 4e is that there aren't enough hirelings

Quote from: Doom;439515See, if Ben had said THAT, instead of it being about 4e, I'd be hard pressed to deny it. Anyone else spew such crap, I probably would have let it go with just a few posts...and hopefully no fool white knights would have shown up to defend the indefensible.

I'm still a little vague on how Gygax not expecting Kuntz to show up with an army is proof that Gygax was expecting Kuntz to show up with an army because such was something to count on, but I have to admit some fatigue here.

Apparently being a tool is fatiguing.  You should probably give it up, and it might improve your overall health.

Quote from: Doom;439515I'm still a little vague on how Gygax not expecting Kuntz to show up with an army is proof that Gygax was expecting Kuntz to show up with an army because such was something to count on, but I have to admit some fatigue here.

What?! Dude. The orcs didn't even make it after the entrances of the Tomb. It's just what people remember of the story, that Rob made it through the Tomb because of the orcs, which is actually incorrect, as far as I can tell. Rob making it through the Tomb had more to do with him having brains that just the orcs. Quit shifting goalposts YET AGAIN.

Quote from: Drohem;439519Apparently being a tool is fatiguing.  You should probably give it up, and it might improve your overall health.

Seriously, asshole: shut the fuck up.

Thanks.

Quote from: Benoist;439521What?! Dude. The orcs didn't even make it after the entrances of the Tomb. It's just what people remember of the story, that Rob made it through the Tomb because of the orcs, which is actually incorrect, as far as I can tell. Rob making it through the Tomb had more to do with him having brains that just the orcs. Quit shifting goalposts YET AGAIN.

Uh, that's not shifting goalposts. You're confused what that phrase means. Well, one of the people running your account.

Anyway, do you have a place with the link?

Still, it's weird how this everyday thing is actually memorable so.

Quote from: Doom;439523Seriously, asshole: shut the fuck up.

Thanks.

Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing about you.

Quote from: Drohem;439525Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing about you.

Seriously, asshole: shut the fuck up.

Thanks!