Quote from: jibbajibba;439473Hey where are those goalposts going

I am changing the topic with this post to address jgants' post, with which I agree. I'm not shifting goalposts, here: if you want to go back to the subject of the AD&D baseline, I'm fine with it. I don't see any agreement emerging any time soon, though, because it seems that each one of us seems quite certain of his or her definition of that baseline, and just as I'm unlikely to move from that position at this point, so are you, or the Lamb, for that matter - seems to me. I'm addressing the 3 Ogres scenario vs. 1st level PCs some people have asked us to consider. And I'm just saying: well, a close comparison can actually be found in the first encounter of the game I'm running here on the RPG Site, and none of the PCs were taken out during at that moment (though a few of them were later).

Quote from: jibbajibba;439469So like I said a while back 3 ogres could easily wipe out a party of 5 5th level PCs in AD&D especially if they were unprepared or just got out of a combat

And that TOO is possible, given specific circumstances, by the way.

Quote from: Doom;439477There are two people on the account, at least as near as I can tell.

Told you, thedungeondelver hacked my account.

Quote from: Benoist;439478I am changing the topic with this post to address jgants' post, with which I agree. I'm not shifting goalposts, here. I'm addressing the 3 Ogres scenario vs. 1st level PCs some people have asked us to consider. And I'm just saying: well, a close comparison can actually be found in the first encounter of the game I'm running here on the RPG Site, and none of the PCs were taken out during at that moment (though a few of them were later).

I know but I would much rather you address the scenario that started this debate ................. post 389

point is a group of 3 ogres could easily kill 5 5th level PCs especially if the PCs are recently out of a combat and are not fully healed or the wizardy-wiz has used up a couple of spells.

Quote from: jibbajibba;439484I know but I would much rather you address the scenario that started this debate ................. post 389

Wait. I have a look now.

Quote from: Benoist;439485Wait. I have a look now.

The whole thing kicked off in 372

Quote from: jibbajibba;438147Well not by anyone I have ever actually met in a con at a game table or anywhere else. Although I have heard dungeondelver refer to using teams of hirelings, in reference to where to get repalcement PCs from after player death, on this forum.

And me, now.

Quote from: jibbajibba;438147But lets not bitch ... point is a group of 3 ogres could easily kill 5 5th level PCs especially if the PCs are recently out of a combat and are not fully healed or the wizardy-wiz has used up a couple of spells.

There are plenty of possible scenarios under which 3 ogres could TPK a group of five 5th level characters, yes.

Quote from: Benoist;439488And me, now.


There are plenty of possible scenarios under which 3 ogres could TPK a group of five 5th level characters, yes.

See there we go Agreement breaks out and all is well.

Ben we have an appointment with President Mubarak, meet you at Cairo airport at 9am.

Quote from: RandallS;438111In dungeons that's true. However, it was was easy to end up with far more than that as the noise of battle brought other monsters. Also, it might not be 1d4 monsters you can beat but 1d4 monsters well over your level. For example, you could -- by the tables in the 1e DMG -- encounter 1d3 Ogres on the first level of a dungeon.  In the wilderness, the numbers encountered were often far larger and they could be anything as the wilderness wasn't divided into "levels".

True.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;438121True in all editions.

I don't think 1d3 ogres would be an unwinnable encounter for low level PCs in AD&D, either. Especially if they had hirelings to absorb the brunt of battle while the PCs stayed in the rear firing arrows or set up a fighting retreat.

Also true.

Quote from: jibbajibba;438123De[pends how you ruled Ogre Strength and Damage. I figured that if Ogres are inteligent-ish they woudl use wepaons and they really should have 18 (00) strength so they all get +3 to hit and somthing like a d10 + 6 damage.

At those rates 3 ogres can kill a party of 5 5th level PCs if they come across them unawares (an average 5th level wizard has 12 hp remember and an average 5th level figther only has 27)

Just sayin.

It's true though: 1d3 Ogres are not an unwinnable encounter for a group of first level characters, and especially so with the help of hirelings.

It is ALSO true that 3 Ogres can kill a party of five 5th level PCs if they come across them unawares, after a bunch of other combats, whatnot.

One proposition is not the other's opposite, and does not negate it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;439492See there we go Agreement breaks out and all is well.

Yes. Agreement.

Quote from: jibbajibba;439492Ben we have an appointment with President Mubarak, meet you at Cairo airport at 9am.

Bring a large blunt instrument with you. That seems to be the only thing the old man is willing to listen to at this point.

Quote from: Benoist;439494Yes. Agreement.


Bring a large blunt device with you. That seems to be the only thing the old man is willing to listen to at this point.

Don't worry mate I have 10 hirelings with spears

Heck, a few kobolds can beat level 5 characters in the right situation.

Am I the only one here that played through Dragon Mountain?

Quote from: jibbajibba;439496Don't worry mate I have 10 hirelings with spears

Even better. We can beat the crap out of him until he leaves Egypt for good, now. And Suleiman, too.

Quote from: Doom;439497Heck, a few kobolds can beat level 5 characters in the right situation.

Am I the only one here that played through Dragon Mountain?

Actually as I said in the 2e love thread that is possibly my favourite dungeon type. 20 kolbold wipe out a party of 5 7th level guys. Hysterical.

Point here is though they are just ogres doing ogre stuff I swing hit you for 8 etc etc

Quote from: Benoist;439456What seems obvious to me is that AM actually had a salient point, and that people who have a grudge with him seem to be willing to bend over backwards to stick it to him somehow. That, I'm not going to do, I'm sorry. I'm not going to say counterfactual stuff just because people want to stick it to AM.

That's bullshit.

The idea that 1-3 ogres isn't a challenging encounter for a first-level party because they are assumed to have hirelings and henchmen with them is just crazy.  Sure hirelings and henchmen were in the game, sure the PCs may have had retainers of some kind or just pure NPCs with them.  However, to claim, out of context of any specific setting or campaign that a squad of them was standard issue is just silly, which is what AM was doing.  I'm not pointing this out because I want to stick it to AM, I point it out because that's what he was doing.  Doom's the one who wants to stick it to AM.  

Err, that sounded bad, well, whatever.