Quote from: Arry;438665I and my group certainly didn't.  Meh, we still had fun.

It's totally cool, and nobody's discussing that people can't have fun playing without henchmen and hirelings, or that it's somehow impossible to play the game without them - it's wrong, because millions of players didn't use them.

That's not my point. My point is that hirelings and henchmen are part of the game's baseline.

A. Charisma text and table PH 13. Charisma is “the key to leadership.” It is the whole point of the Charisma score in terms of party dynamics.

B. Dwarf description mentioning non-dwarven henchmen related to Charisma restriction. PH 16. Ditto Half-Orc PH 17.

C. Mention of Druids possibly being met with henchmen and hirelings PH 21. Assassin characters do not have access to henchmen and hirelings until he or she attains 4th level. PH 30. This is a significant drawback for the class. Same thing for monks until they attain the level of Master. PH 32.

D. PH 34, Establishing your Character Section:

In any event, your character created, personified, and established will be ready to adventure once equipment is purchased and relations with other player characters are settled. If player characters are not immediately available, or if they are not co-operative, it is advisable that men-at-arms be hired. Hirelings of this sort, as well as henchmen (q.v.), are detailed in the sections entitled HIRELINGS and HENCHMEN.

Note this is regarding hirelings and henchmen as the game starts, right out of the gate after generation, meaning that if there aren’t other PCs to bounce your own character against, it is advised to use hirelings and henchmen right at the beginning of the game.


E. Hirelings and Henchmen sections, PH 39. “At any time, a character may attempt to hire various different sorts of workers, servants, or guards. (…)Note that the number of hirelings is in no way limited by charisma, and hirelings differ considerably from henchmen who are discussed immediately hereafter. The loyalty of hirelings is quite similar to that of henchmen, though, and the discussion of the loyalty of henchmen can be applied to hirelings of all sorts. (See HENCHMEN hereafter.)”

Number of hirelings is not limited by Charisma. If you don’t see the direct correlation between hirelings and survivability at low levels, you’re bad. Note that hirelings are discussed along with weapons, equipment, and various other types of management for PCs.

Same page, regarding henchmen: “As discussed in the preceding section regarding CHARACTER ABILITIES, charisma has a great effect on the number of henchmen a character is able to attract.”

The manual then goes on about the subject for half a page. This is an integral part of the game. DMs may choose to handle it in a variety of ways, but it’s there, and it is directly linked to the raison d’etre of Charisma. There’s no denying it. It carries through the description of classes and races, with specific exceptions to the general baseline, which is that characters will hire people to help them out in campaign play. Which is why it’s a bummer for Assassins and Monks, for instance.

F/ Obedience, PH 106: “This aspect of play has three facets. The leader and caller of a party might order one course of action while various players state that their characters do otherwise. Your DM will treat such situations as confused and muddled, being certain to penalize the group accordingly. Obedience also applies to hirelings and henchmen. Loyalty and morale are factors here, as is the existing situation where obedience is called for. Finally, certain magic items, particularly magic swords, tend to be argumentative and may refuse to obey uncertain, demanding, weak, or foolish masters.”

Ibid, Morale section:

"Morale properly refers to the stote of mind of "troops" during combat or stress situations. Stupid creatures tend to fight to the death. So do creatures with a set purpose in mind - elite, guards, and fanatical creatures. Your character will never have to check morale status, nor will any other player character, for each player provides this personally. Some are brave, some foolish, some cautious, some cowardly. Your character's henchmen will probably have to check morale, so too will hirelings. Powerful monsters will never check morale, and even weak ones will probably not do so as long as they have leadership.

When you require your henchmen and/or hirelings to take risks which your character is not personally taking, or when in hazardous situations with or without your character, or when faced with a defeated and fleeing enemy just overcome, or when given the prospect of rich loot, these are times when the campaign referee will usually require morale checks.

Obedience, actions, reactions, etc. will be decided by such morale checks. In addition to the influence your charocter's charisma has, the loyalty rating of henchmen and hirelings will be influenced by past treatment, current situation, and the behavior of any of their fellows nearby. Your lieutenants, if any, will provide a steadying influence. Higher level characters are unlikely to have poor morale unless they are faced with on obviously hopeless situation (ot least as far as they can see it) and/or when they are low in hit points.

If you treat your henchmen and hirelings fairly, pay them well, and give them arms and equipment which allow them to effectively engage in combat by maximizing their protection and offensive potential, their morale base will be good. Furthermore, if you do not require them to take risks which your character does not take, if their mortality is not high, and their "master" does not abandon them to their fote os long as another course is possible, the "troops" will be likely to be firm in the face of nearly any threat. Lack of action, setbacks, and similar things reduce morole. A good player pays strict attention to these considerations."

OK. That’s for the PHB.

Quote from: Benoist;438604Well now, you can look at some other components of the game and wonder how henchmen and hirelings fit into the picture, and what sort of entertainment you get as you play the game by using them. Henchmen and hirelings actually have a deep impact on game play, from the game's lethality to the multi-layers of resource management it implies, the tactical resources available to the party, the characters that can be promoted PCs upon the death of other characters, how your retinue plays into the campaign's continuity up to name level when you create your fief/tower/whatnot, and so on, so forth.

So, sure, you can discard this aspect of the game and play it any way you want. But the inclusion of henchmen and hirelings into the game does bring a different type of entertainment to it, and alters its game play in ways that some might find interesting. Which happens to be my case now, as opposed to twenty years ago.

I totally get what you are saying, and agree with it. Things is, I do not see how anyone can make a flamewar out of discussing minutiae like how many times does the word hireling appear in the original edition of Blue Box, and stuff like that. That is what baffles me.

Discussing about use and enjoyment of hirelings = awesome.

Flaming about the exact page in which they appear = lame.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;438626But, as you say, the LBBs are, in fact, the first of their kind. And that makes them interesting documents, in part because they're confusing, contradictory, and vague.

You will find no argument against that on my side. I can see how some interesting debates can be had, and I also think that trying to approach an old game with an open mind (I've done the same with RQ 3 recently) can be awesome.

I guess I have less and less patience for ridiculous flames about non-issues, because this is a topic that does not merit such angry discussions.

What Benoist is missing is just how many people never read the rules.  This is a big fault in the thinking of many designers, including the people behind Essentials.  I gave my 13 year old son the book to see if he could figure out character creation.  He gave up, it was too much reading and he couldn't find the equipment list.  Most people don't read all the big blocks of text.  At best they skim them.

A visual flow chart would have served essentials better than a programmed adventure.

Quote from: Benoist;438674It's totally cool, and nobody's discussing that people can't have fun playing without henchmen and hirelings, or that it's somehow impossible to play the game without them - it's wrong, because millions of players didn't use them.

Exactly, so it cannot possibly be a baseline, in the usual definition of the word.

Quote from: David Johansen;438677What Benoist is missing is just how many people never read the rules.  This is a big fault in the thinking of many designers, including the people behind Essentials.

Exactly, again, which is why actual examples of play are so useful in figuring out how the game is played. I'm sorry to hear your son couldn't wade through the Essentials rules. I personally think Essentials didn't catch on because of the 'new edition' issue, as opposed to still being too hard for a new player to pick up.

Essentials may be the same game in some sense, but the simple fact that many don't believe it makes it different. I simply didn't want to buy into it because it reminded me of 3.5--basically the same game, but you need to buy all the new rulebooks.

DMG 2, Use of Miniatures With the Game: The special figures cast for ADVANCED DUNGEONS 8 DRAGONS add color to play and make refereeing far easier. Each player might be required to furnish painted figures representing his or her player character and all henchmen and/or hirelings included in the game session.

Same topic, DMG 11: "It is suggested that you urge your players to provide painted figures representing their characters, henchmen, and hirelings involved in play."

It is assumed the PCs are using hirelings and henchmen when discussing the topic of using miniatures in the game.

Subject of Spies: DMG 18-19 as it relates to the Assassin.

Player character Expenses, DMG 25: "Each player character will automatically expend not less than 100 gold pieces per level of experience per month. This is simply support, upkeep, equipment, and entertainment expense. These costs are to be deducted by the Dungeon Master automatically, and any further spending by the PC is to be added to these costs. Such expense is justified by the "fact" that adventurers are o free-wheeling and high-living lot (except, of course, for monks). Other miscellaneous expenditures by player characters encompass such things as additional equipment expense for henchmen or hirelings, costs of hirelings, bribes, costs of locating prospective henchmen, and so on. To such costs are to be added: [goes on with the actual costs of henchmen and stronghold maintenance]"

This too shows that henchmen and hirelings are thought to be in use as a default assumption of the game.

Hirelings section DMG 28 – 34.
Henchmen section DMG 34 – 37.

These speak for themselves.

DMG 39, Spells beyond those at the start, talking about the attitudes of henchmen and hirelings regarding the exchange of spells.

Effects of Polymorph, which hirelings/henchmen will generally refuse to be subjected to.

Morale section, DMG 67.

DMG 91, Monster population and placement: "Certain areas will be filled with nasty things due to the efforts of some character to protect his or her stronghold, due to the influence of some powerful evil or good force, and so on. Except in the latter case, when adventurers (your player characters, their henchmen characters, and hirelings) move into an area and begin to slaughter the creatures therein, it will become devoid of monsters."

Another point of context that shows hirelings and henchmen are part of the baseline assumptions of the game.

Special Roles of the Dungeon Master very first paragraph DMG 102: As the DM you are game moderator, judge, jury, and supreme deity.  You are also actively engaged in actual role playing throughout the course of the campaign, from game to game, as you must take the Persona of each and every henchman and/or hireling involved. (See olso Monsters, here-after.) To play such roles to the hilt, it is certainly helpful to the DM if he or she has player characters of his or her own in some other campaign.

Immediately followed by:

Henchmen: Regardless of their loyalty, henchmen are individuals. Play them for their liege just as if they were your player characters, modified by whatever circumstances and special characteristics are applicable. Begin creating the persona of such a non-player character as soon as he or she appears on the scene, without recourse to the book characteristics. It will thereafter become easier and more natural for you to re-assume the persona as needed. The most important rule to remember is that the henchman is an individual, with likes, dislikes, feelings, and so on. The henchman is likely to aspire to greater things too, and he or she will tend to look out for personal interests. Bullying, duping, cheating, and similar maltreatment will certainly be resented. The henchman will talk about it with others of his class and fellow henchmen and hirelings. Henchmen will never loon out money or valuables without security - particularly if one instance of failure to repay or loss has occurred previously. Loyalty will certainly drop in this case, and if such action is repeated, loyalty will be lost in most cases. If their liege is so bold as to suggest that the henchmen should make loans to other characters, there will be flat refusal in all likelihood. The key here is playing the henchman as if he or she were an actual person - better still if the character is somewhat greedy and avaricious. Interest should be paid on loans. Use of a henchman's valuables, such as a magic item, should be based on the holding of some equal or better object of similar nature, certainly one usable by the henchman, and the promise of some payment in addition - such as a minor item of magic! (See also ACQUISITION OF MAGIC-USER SPELLS.)

Some few players will actually play their henchmen as individual characters, not merely as convenient extensions of their main player character. In these rare cases, your involvement with these henchmen will be minimal. It is far more probable that the players will attempt to manipulate their henchmen, and you will counter all such attempts by active assumption of the role or roles. You will keep low-intelligence characters behaving accordingly, clever ones possibly tricking their master, and so on.

Hirelings: As these characters serve strictly as employees, they should be played as such - mercenaries interested in doing their job and collecting their pay. Unusual indeed will be circumstances which see a hireling volunteering for extra work/service. Rather, a hireling seeks to do only as much as is absolutely minimal to fulfill terms of employment. If more is desired, more must be offered. Playing such roles is relatively easy, and if groups are involved, concentrate on the personae of the leaders. Otherwise, hirelings can be treated as henchmen as far as involvement is concerned.

These are the first two special roles mentioned, before monsters, other non-player characters. It is part of the base assumptions of the game.

Effects of using hirelings/henchmen as cannon fodder when trying out magic items. DMG 156.

Conflicts of personality between a character and an intelligent sword having impact on hirelings/henchmen DMG 168.

My point: Hirelings and henchmen are not thought of as an optional rule, or some side-dish in the game. They are an integral part of the game play that deserves multiple mentions, specific corner cases, extensive discussion throughout the rule books.

Yes you can totally play the game without them, but ignoring them entirely is a choice, a choice which does not happen to be the default assumption of the corpus of rules.

Quote from: Benoist;438674It's totally cool, and nobody's discussing that people can't have fun playing without henchmen and hirelings, or that it's somehow impossible to play the game without them - it's wrong, because millions of players didn't use them.

That's not my point. My point is that hirelings and henchmen are part of the game's baseline.

A. Charisma text and table PH 13. Charisma is "the key to leadership." It is the whole point of the Charisma score in terms of party dynamics.

B. Dwarf description mentioning non-dwarven henchmen related to Charisma restriction. PH 16. Ditto Half-Orc PH 17.

C. Mention of Druids possibly being met with henchmen and hirelings PH 21. Assassin characters do not have access to henchmen and hirelings until he or she attains 4th level. PH 30. This is a significant drawback for the class. Same thing for monks until they attain the level of Master. PH 32.

D. PH 34, Establishing your Character Section:

In any event, your character created, personified, and established will be ready to adventure once equipment is purchased and relations with other player characters are settled. If player characters are not immediately available, or if they are not co-operative, it is advisable that men-at-arms be hired. Hirelings of this sort, as well as henchmen (q.v.), are detailed in the sections entitled HIRELINGS and HENCHMEN.

Note this is regarding hirelings and henchmen as the game starts, right out of the gate after generation, meaning that if there aren't other PCs to bounce your own character against, it is advised to use hirelings and henchmen right at the beginning of the game.


E. Hirelings and Henchmen sections, PH 39. "At any time, a character may attempt to hire various different sorts of workers, servants, or guards. (...)Note that the number of hirelings is in no way limited by charisma, and hirelings differ considerably from henchmen who are discussed immediately hereafter. The loyalty of hirelings is quite similar to that of henchmen, though, and the discussion of the loyalty of henchmen can be applied to hirelings of all sorts. (See HENCHMEN hereafter.)"

Number of hirelings is not limited by Charisma. If you don't see the direct correlation between hirelings and survivability at low levels, you're bad. Note that hirelings are discussed along with weapons, equipment, and various other types of management for PCs.

Same page, regarding henchmen: "As discussed in the preceding section regarding CHARACTER ABILITIES, charisma has a great effect on the number of henchmen a character is able to attract."

The manual then goes on about the subject for half a page. This is an integral part of the game. DMs may choose to handle it in a variety of ways, but it's there, and it is directly linked to the raison d'etre of Charisma. There's no denying it. It carries through the description of classes and races, with specific exceptions to the general baseline, which is that characters will hire people to help them out in campaign play. Which is why it's a bummer for Assassins and Monks, for instance.

F/ Obedience, PH 106: "This aspect of play has three facets. The leader and caller of a party might order one course of action while various players state that their characters do otherwise. Your DM will treat such situations as confused and muddled, being certain to penalize the group accordingly. Obedience also applies to hirelings and henchmen. Loyalty and morale are factors here, as is the existing situation where obedience is called for. Finally, certain magic items, particularly magic swords, tend to be argumentative and may refuse to obey uncertain, demanding, weak, or foolish masters."

Ibid, Morale section:

"Morale properly refers to the stote of mind of "troops" during combat or stress situations. Stupid creatures tend to fight to the death. So do creatures with a set purpose in mind - elite, guards, and fanatical creatures. Your character will never have to check morale status, nor will any other player character, for each player provides this personally. Some are brave, some foolish, some cautious, some cowardly. Your character's henchmen will probably have to check morale, so too will hirelings. Powerful monsters will never check morale, and even weak ones will probably not do so as long as they have leadership.

When you require your henchmen and/or hirelings to take risks which your character is not personally taking, or when in hazardous situations with or without your character, or when faced with a defeated and fleeing enemy just overcome, or when given the prospect of rich loot, these are times when the campaign referee will usually require morale checks.

Obedience, actions, reactions, etc. will be decided by such morale checks. In addition to the influence your charocter's charisma has, the loyalty rating of henchmen and hirelings will be influenced by past treatment, current situation, and the behavior of any of their fellows nearby. Your lieutenants, if any, will provide a steadying influence. Higher level characters are unlikely to have poor morale unless they are faced with on obviously hopeless situation (ot least as far as they can see it) and/or when they are low in hit points.

If you treat your henchmen and hirelings fairly, pay them well, and give them arms and equipment which allow them to effectively engage in combat by maximizing their protection and offensive potential, their morale base will be good. Furthermore, if you do not require them to take risks which your character does not take, if their mortality is not high, and their "master" does not abandon them to their fote os long as another course is possible, the "troops" will be likely to be firm in the face of nearly any threat. Lack of action, setbacks, and similar things reduce morole. A good player pays strict attention to these considerations."

OK. That's for the PHB.

Ben,

You have way too much free time .....

Doesn't this line

Quote... If player characters are not immediately available, or if they are not co-operative, it is advisable that men-at-arms be hired. Hirelings of this sort, as well as henchmen (q.v.), are detailed in the sections entitled HIRELINGS and HENCHMEN.

put lie to a big chunk of your post? The clear suggestion is that if you can't find any other PCs then get some hirelings but if you can get PCs take them....

Now I am going to take a liberty and project a bit but the quotes you have here kind of make me think that there was a strong 'wargamer' ethos around the game at this point and they wanted to keep some of that in although the game had been departing from it. That may well just be my projecting again though.

The classes that can't hire hirelings are merely confusing. An assasin can't hire a guy to carry his luggage because Everyone knows he is an assasin?? A monk can't because of some unspoken philosophical code?

Conflating Hirelings and henchmen is confusing. You can hire as many Hirelings as you can afford so Charisma is irrelevant. To us Henchmen were NPCs you met in the game or followers you attracted at name level (we did the castle building thing once or twice). At low levels you won't have henchmen. At high levels you will be unlikely to reach henchman limits. Charisma is much more important for reaction adjustment.

Morale is a hark back to the wargame. It's so essential to wargames a game coming from that background can't ignore it. And we used it for monsters etc ..

So I agree you have found a deal of evidence that the designers thought that lots of players would hire folk. I don't think you have found any evidence that states that hirelings are considered the normative form for most parties and as I noted above that certainly wasn't my reading of the book (or any of the people I knew). So if that is the message is badly delivered.

What I did like though is

QuoteF/ Obedience, PH 106: "This aspect of play has three facets. The leader and caller of a party might order one course of action while various players state that their characters do otherwise. Your DM will treat such situations as confused and muddled, ....

 I had totally forgotten about group leaders and callers heheheh how funny. Now that really dates 1E  

Good research Ben. Shows commitment

Quote from: Doom;438678Exactly, so it cannot possibly be a baseline, in the usual definition of the word.

Now THIS mate is shifting the goalpost right here.

Henchmen and hirelings are part of the baseline of the game as they are an integral part of the game itself, as mentioned multiple times specifically as they relate to other specific rules, from races to classes, to specific in-game situations to subjects that would simply not exist if they weren't used like Loyalty, Morale, automatic expenses from the Player Characters, and so on.

They're not covered in some Appendix like Psionics and whatnot. They are integral to the game.

They are part of the game, I've never, ever, denied this. Just like leprosy and buying a pig and the Censor. Absolutely, part of the game.

But, I humbly ask you to look up the definition of what a 'baseline' is. I'm not the one calling it a baseline, you are. You used that word, and it doesn't apply. If you, and others, hadn't used that word, it would be goalpost moving on my part, I admit.

But, you used the word, and I'm just saying I don't tink it means what you tink it means. You can't have a 'baseline' that doesn't apply to large, quite possibly majority, proportion of the population. Your own words said "millions didn't" use these things, and I agree with you. But that large a number, in reference to old D&D players, means a 'baseline' that doesn't include them is missing an awful lot of the base, above and beyond this baseline not being represented in the actual play.

This is such a great quote:

Quote... If player characters are not immediately available, or if they are not co-operative, it is advisable that men-at-arms be hired. Hirelings of this sort, as well as henchmen (q.v.), are detailed in the sections entitled HIRELINGS and HENCHMEN.

"advisable"...The reason why it's adviseable is because many modules, for example, had a baseline of a number of characters (more or less) playing. This is where our idea of what an adventuring party looks like comes from--not a group of guys, plus their army. Just a group of guys. The baseline isn't henchman or hirelings, obviously. The baseline isn't "10 footmen" accompanying the party at all times (go and look at those dungeon wandering monster charts to see for yourself that 10 footmen would often pretty much make such things meaningless at first level). The baseline is a handful of characters adventuring, usually in dungeons.

Note: characters. Ideally, they should be players, as this quote represents. But, since the baseline is a certain number* of characters, it is adviseable that if you can't get enough players, to meet that baseline with hirelings and henchmen.

So, yeah, absolutely, such things are a necessary part of the game. But to say they're the baseline is putting the cart before the horse. In any event, the rules very, very, very, clearly indicate this is not a sure thing.

Similarly, when you look at hirelings. "If groups are involved, deal with the leader". If. If. If. 'Nuff said, because how much effort we're putting on the obvious here is getting beyond silly.

*For what it's worth, the baseline for the number of characters? Probably 9, to judge by p175 of the DMG, when it talks about rolling up a 'typical' adventuring party. I still don't see how to fit 10 footmen in that number, however.

Quote from: jibbajibba;438681Doesn't this line...put lie to a big chunk of your post?

No. There's an "or" in there.

Seanchai

Quote from: jibbajibba;438681Doesn't this line

put lie to a big chunk of your post?

It doesn't, because it specifically relates to the very start of the game, the point at which you just finished creating your character, just equipped him/her, and are about to set forth adventuring. What this basically means is that if you're adventuring solo, you'll want to start the game right out of the gate with henchmen and hirelings. It doesn't mean that otherwise you don't or can't, just that it's particularly advised in that specific circumstance. See what I mean?

Quote from: David Johansen;438677What Benoist is missing is just how many people never read the rules.

I didn't miss it, and this is very true. The fact is that many people played the game by sort of picking what looked cool and completely discarding other stuff because it seemed uncool, or they had no idea it was there, didn't see the point of it, or whatnot. Most people have not read the AD&D books cover to cover. I think that's a fact. Doesn't mean that the game breaks if you don't use WP/AC, henchmen or hirelings, segments in combat, initiative rules, and about a zillions of other parts of the game (and it is a testimony to the adaptability of the game and why so many people liked it, by the way). After, each particular individual will have an idea of what AD&D is or is not based on how they played or whatnot, but that's not the point at all. The point is whether hirelings and henchmen are part of the default assumptions of the game, and there I answer "yes, sure - they are!"

Quote from: Benoist;438680DMG 2, Use of Miniatures With the Game: The special figures cast for ADVANCED DUNGEONS 8 DRAGONS add color to play and make refereeing far easier. Each player might be required to furnish painted figures representing his or her player character and all henchmen and/or hirelings included in the game session.

Same topic, DMG 11: "It is suggested that you urge your players to provide painted figures representing their characters, henchmen, and hirelings involved in play."

It is assumed the PCs are using hirelings and henchmen when discussing the topic of using miniatures in the game.

Subject of Spies: DMG 18-19 as it relates to the Assassin.

Player character Expenses, DMG 25: "Each player character will automatically expend not less than 100 gold pieces per level of experience per month. This is simply support, upkeep, equipment, and entertainment expense. These costs are to be deducted by the Dungeon Master automatically, and any further spending by the PC is to be added to these costs. Such expense is justified by the "fact" that adventurers are o free-wheeling and high-living lot (except, of course, for monks). Other miscellaneous expenditures by player characters encompass such things as additional equipment expense for henchmen or hirelings, costs of hirelings, bribes, costs of locating prospective henchmen, and so on. To such costs are to be added: [goes on with the actual costs of henchmen and stronghold maintenance]"

This too shows that henchmen and hirelings are thought to be in use as a default assumption of the game.

Hirelings section DMG 28 – 34.
Henchmen section DMG 34 – 37.

These speak for themselves.

DMG 39, Spells beyond those at the start, talking about the attitudes of henchmen and hirelings regarding the exchange of spells.

Effects of Polymorph, which hirelings/henchmen will generally refuse to be subjected to.

Morale section, DMG 67.

DMG 91, Monster population and placement: "Certain areas will be filled with nasty things due to the efforts of some character to protect his or her stronghold, due to the influence of some powerful evil or good force, and so on. Except in the latter case, when adventurers (your player characters, their henchmen characters, and hirelings) move into an area and begin to slaughter the creatures therein, it will become devoid of monsters."

Another point of context that shows hirelings and henchmen are part of the baseline assumptions of the game.

Special Roles of the Dungeon Master very first paragraph DMG 102: As the DM you are game moderator, judge, jury, and supreme deity.  You are also actively engaged in actual role playing throughout the course of the campaign, from game to game, as you must take the Persona of each and every henchman and/or hireling involved. (See olso Monsters, here-after.) To play such roles to the hilt, it is certainly helpful to the DM if he or she has player characters of his or her own in some other campaign.

Immediately followed by:

Henchmen: Regardless of their loyalty, henchmen are individuals. Play them for their liege just as if they were your player characters, modified by whatever circumstances and special characteristics are applicable. Begin creating the persona of such a non-player character as soon as he or she appears on the scene, without recourse to the book characteristics. It will thereafter become easier and more natural for you to re-assume the persona as needed. The most important rule to remember is that the henchman is an individual, with likes, dislikes, feelings, and so on. The henchman is likely to aspire to greater things too, and he or she will tend to look out for personal interests. Bullying, duping, cheating, and similar maltreatment will certainly be resented. The henchman will talk about it with others of his class and fellow henchmen and hirelings. Henchmen will never loon out money or valuables without security - particularly if one instance of failure to repay or loss has occurred previously. Loyalty will certainly drop in this case, and if such action is repeated, loyalty will be lost in most cases. If their liege is so bold as to suggest that the henchmen should make loans to other characters, there will be flat refusal in all likelihood. The key here is playing the henchman as if he or she were an actual person - better still if the character is somewhat greedy and avaricious. Interest should be paid on loans. Use of a henchman's valuables, such as a magic item, should be based on the holding of some equal or better object of similar nature, certainly one usable by the henchman, and the promise of some payment in addition - such as a minor item of magic! (See also ACQUISITION OF MAGIC-USER SPELLS.)

Some few players will actually play their henchmen as individual characters, not merely as convenient extensions of their main player character. In these rare cases, your involvement with these henchmen will be minimal. It is far more probable that the players will attempt to manipulate their henchmen, and you will counter all such attempts by active assumption of the role or roles. You will keep low-intelligence characters behaving accordingly, clever ones possibly tricking their master, and so on.

Hirelings: As these characters serve strictly as employees, they should be played as such - mercenaries interested in doing their job and collecting their pay. Unusual indeed will be circumstances which see a hireling volunteering for extra work/service. Rather, a hireling seeks to do only as much as is absolutely minimal to fulfill terms of employment. If more is desired, more must be offered. Playing such roles is relatively easy, and if groups are involved, concentrate on the personae of the leaders. Otherwise, hirelings can be treated as henchmen as far as involvement is concerned.

These are the first two special roles mentioned, before monsters, other non-player characters. It is part of the base assumptions of the game.

Effects of using hirelings/henchmen as cannon fodder when trying out magic items. DMG 156.

Conflicts of personality between a character and an intelligent sword having impact on hirelings/henchmen DMG 168.

My point: Hirelings and henchmen are not thought of as an optional rule, or some side-dish in the game. They are an integral part of the game play that deserves multiple mentions, specific corner cases, extensive discussion throughout the rule books.

Yes you can totally play the game without them, but ignoring them entirely is a choice, a choice which does not happen to be the default assumption of the corpus of rules.

I cann't not comment

An outstanding peice of work

Shows some ludicrous rules (100GP per month minimal living expenses because you have to be high living ... um ... where is the role play .....)

I would still argue that the writers are covering for those Players that they know will still use Hirelings etc due to Wargame roots. Again there is no direction to the DM that players should be encouraged to recruit hirelings to help them through low levels there is no explicit direction of this sort at all. There is a definite difference between knowing some of your players want rules for hirelings and establishing that as the standard play format.

So either hirelings should be assumed to be part of the game and the rules are even more badly written than I recall or the rules are written to accomodate those players who like to use hirelings.

(wow I am watching a documentary on Lincoln ... not quite a saint after all ...)

Quote from: jibbajibba;438681Ben,

You have way too much free time .....
(...)

Good research Ben. Shows commitment

Thanks mate, by the way. I really don't mean to say that people can't enjoy the game the way they want, the way they did, or do now. That's totally cool. I just find it such a source of renewed fun to play this game now that I feel I can actually understand it, as opposed to twenty years ago where we just did it kind of cherry picking through stuff without knowing what we were doing. I love this game. I just enjoy reading through the books now. It's so awesome.

Quote from: Seanchai;438684No. There's an "or" in there.

Seanchai

um but it says "or they are not co-operative ....." so a bunch of co-operative PCs ?

Quote from: jibbajibba;438690um but it says "or they are not co-operative ....." so a bunch of co-operative PCs ?

Yeah. I'm not absolutely sure what is meant by that. I guess it addresses groups where characters are not necessarily cooperating with each other, as in, not so much with an actual group dynamic, but more of a free-for-all game play.