Quote from: Justin Alexander;438234... a statement that has literally jackshit to do with anything discussed in this thread. Congratulations on posting such a completely idiotic non sequitur.

So, what do you call a quantity of extras that amounts to a squad of soldiers or two modern fire teams?

QuoteI wrote out a reply detailing how you misquoted me multiple times, engaged in mindless sophistry, practiced a laughable series of ad hominem attacks, and refused to answer the very simple question of "What, exactly, would it take to convince you that you're wrong about this?" while pretending to have some secret answer tucked away that you refuse to share with the world.

Perhaps you should stick to writing semi-coherent blog entries, because this is the first time you responded to my post.  You seem to have a difficult time following a conversation, especially one that questions your 'transmitted wisdom'.

QuoteBut then I realized that I was just feeding the troll.

When you have an answer to that question, though, feel free to try again.

If you are defining 'troll' as someone who doesn't instantly offer a drolling confirmation of your opinion, then you are going to have one hell of a hard time out here where the walls of your whited sepulcher don't protect you.

How about this?  How about you offer some definitive proof regarding the hiring of troops outside of your fevered imaginings on how vague passages scattered across several rule books are obviously only interpreted in the way you think they are?

I am definitely turning the comments off on my blog, it always seems to lead to exactly this kind of prima donna behaviour.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;438237...

Yes. I would think that. Which is I said that. In the message that you quoted.

... are you really this stupid?

Then, it would be unusual for a later module series to have such tidbits, right?  So, the A series of modules would be completely mundane in their lack of further rules tutorials?  It would, in fact, be wholly unremarkable to find a passage making some sort of claim about wandering monsters and assume that it only applies to that module?

Except, it doesn't even say that.

Quote from: Intro to A2A Wandering Monster Table with attached explanations is included before the keys for the fort and dungeon levels. The table is used only for the campaign adventure.  There are no wandering monsters in the tournament dungeons.

Disingenuous, then, or outright fabrication?

QuoteOh. I see. You really are that stupid.

Good luck with that.

My copy must be faulty, then.  Perhaps you could point me to the section that has the area for detailing the routine and expected dozen or more extra members of the player's retinue?  If it was such an expected and regular feature of play, like AC or Hit Points, there must be a section in the DM's Adventure Log to keep track of them, right?

It's fun when they eat their own...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;438317It's fun when they eat their own...

Seanchai

You mean, when there is an honest and open discussion instead of just repeated echo chamber zombie regurgiquoting of transmitted knowledge?

Quote from: StormBringer;438288Except, it doesn't even say that.


Disingenuous, then, or outright fabrication?

Wow, you flat out caught him in the lie. Well done, indeed. I'm really starting to believe Alexander's account has been hacked. It really is more credible than believing these posts are his.

QuoteMy copy must be faulty, then.  Perhaps you could point me to the section that has the area for detailing the routine and expected dozen or more extra members of the player's retinue?  If it was such an expected and regular feature of play, like AC or Hit Points, there must be a section in the DM's Adventure Log to keep track of them, right?

Seems fair to me. You have a link to that Adventure Log, so everyone can see just how standard it was for 10 soldiers and a sergeant to be with the adventuring group?

This flamewar inspired me to look up the examples of play in the LBB, Holmes, Mentzer, and 1e DMG (melée and dungeon exploration examples) books. There is no mention of any henchmen, retainers, men at arms, or even bearers in the samples, for whatever that's worth.

Quote from: Doom;438330Wow, you flat out caught him in the lie. Well done, indeed. I'm really starting to believe Alexander's account has been hacked. It really is more credible than believing these posts are his.

I was going to ask him directly before, but it seemed to preposterous to consider.  Like you, I am not so sure anymore.  I know Mr Alexander is a big 3.x fan, but he always seemed to have a pretty good grasp on older editions, too.

QuoteSeems fair to me. You have a link to that Adventure Log, so everyone can see just how standard it was for 10 soldiers and a sergeant to be with the adventuring group?

I have it on a pdf, unfortunately, and being out of print and no longer available from Wizards...

Quote from: TAFMSV;438360This flamewar inspired me to look up the examples of play in the LBB, Holmes, Mentzer, and 1e DMG (melée and dungeon exploration examples) books. There is no mention of any henchmen, retainers, men at arms, or even bearers in the samples, for whatever that's worth.

Another good point, I hadn't even thought to look at those.  I recall every edition has an example of play included, which is far more indicative of the expected play than vague throw-away lines about successful parties hiring scads of mercenaries.

Let's get the thread back on track.

Minions are just one example of lameness in 4e.

What other items of lameness have helped contribute to 4e's floundering?

Indeed, we've been pulled off track.

I think the long combats, even if filled with incredibly deeply interlaced abilities, in extensively overamplified options, were another strong factor in people walking away from the game. Minions are bad, mind you...but easily discarded. Someone who doesn't like blowing 2 hours every time combat music plays just doesn't have much choice about it.

It's really tough to throw out combat, especially when combat is the 'strength' of the system.

Quote from: 1989;438375Let's get the thread back on track.

Minions are just one example of lameness in 4e.

What other items of lameness have helped contribute to 4e's floundering?

Boring modules.

Quote from: 1989;438375Let's get the thread back on track.

Minions are just one example of lameness in 4e.

What other items of lameness have helped contribute to 4e's floundering?

Define floundering, and provide data.

Otherwise we're just masturbating here.

Quote from: Peregrin;438386Define floundering, and provide data.

Otherwise we're just masturbating here.

It's floundering because 1989 doesn't like it.

The way the game sells at my FLGS and as much as it is played tells me something totally different then it is floundering

Quote from: ggroy;438382Boring modules.

One thing I did like about the modules was the pictures of the rooms, etc. to show the players.

Quote from: Peregrin;438386Define floundering, and provide data.

Otherwise we're just masturbating here.

NO, YOU'RE masturbating!