Quote from: Abyssal Maw;438127It's not an unwinnable battle is all I am saying.

Not if the players are smart and somewhat lucky. If they are down a bit and/or are taken by surprise, it becomes much harder.  It's not unwinnable, but it is a likely loss.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;438119I was hoping to get the answer from the guy who had never played 4e, not the guy who just played it incompetently. Ok. If you are doing it this way, you are doing it wrong.

Sorry, my bad, no need to be needlessly insulting, much less introduce the goblin strawman.

I didn't mean to confuse you, though, and was using "shifty" as an adjective. I was referring to the Kobold Dragonshield, as opposed to all the other random kobolds with random powers that must be memorized since the names of things often have nothing to do with what they do. It's certainly understandable how someone without much competence could get confused like you just did (see how pointlessly annoying that is?).

Anyway, the Kobold Dragonshield has a randomly named power called Dragonshield Tactics. Since nobody could possibly know what that power does from its name, I'll let you know that it does, indeed, let it shift as an immediate reaction when a player moves adjacent, exactly like I said (I reckon you're randomly referring to someone else as incompetent, and will take it as such). I apologize for confusing immediate reaction with interrupt. Or are those the same? I guess I could look it up to make sure they're not (and I'm sure you're whipping out your books right now to flip through and see), but that's rather the point: even with many hours of play it's pretty tough to get all the precise variants of the timing rules down with perfect precision off the cuff.

In this case the player's move action would trigger an immediate reaction by the kobold which would trigger a special attack of opportunity  action by the fighter which would not be an opportunity attack action but would still trigger a free action by the warlock if successful and fatal, even though it's before the move, but after the attack and before the immediate reaction but after the move.

And that's just using 'vanilla' 4e rules, from the very first book, using a low level monster and inherent powers that characters will be using every round of every encounter of their career.

So, back to the point, yeah, there are alot of interactions there.

Quote from: RandallS;438129Not if the players are smart and somewhat lucky. If they are down a bit and/or are taken by surprise, it becomes much harder.  It's not unwinnable, but it is a likely loss.

Or, as AM says, happen to have a dozen soldiers ready to fanatically die against much tougher creatures.

For what it's worth, even basic D&D gave ogres bonuses to damage due to strength and size in the adventures (eg, Keep on the Borderlands).

Anyway, low level characters marching around with a troop of soldiers, much less fanatical ones, was pretty rare in my games of D&D. Never had any such situation in 4e. How about you?

Quote from: Doom;438133For what it's worth, even basic D&D gave ogres bonuses to damage due to strength and size (eg, Keep on the Borderlands).

Ogres using weapons get a +2 to weapon damage in 1e as well. It's just not mentioned in the stat block, but in the descriptive text. Ogre leaders get +3 (or better).

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;438127They can only attack once per round. In AD&D they do 1d10 or "by weapon". You could probably count on a squad of 10 light footmen (or even heavy footmen) with a sergeant..augmenting the party as the front line.  That's 3 rounds at least where you don't even break a sweat, firing arrow after arrow, just enough to do 4d8+1 hp (let's say 21 hp per ogre)  of damage, and your front line is probably landing a few blows of their own.

It's not an unwinnable battle is all I am saying. plus we don't really have to change the rules (not a very common thing to start suddenly giving Ogres the bonuses that aren't part of their stat block).. that's not really how AD&D was supposed to work, is it? DMs don't need to change the stat block, they could just roll behind the screen and make everything up. Do you know the gygaxian riddle "Why does a DM roll dice?"

Even so. Not unwinnable.

Curious as to where the squad of 10 guys comes from??? I just said that 3 ogres could take 5 th level PCs not 5 5th level PCs with a squad of guys in a defensive position.....

So yes you are right if you have a defensive position with a squad of 10 guys protecting your PCs and they are armed with bows and the ogres have to charge them to get to the party you are pretty safe..... not sure if that sounds anything like 3 ogres could take a bunch of 5 5th level PCs if they caught them unawares mind ...(or much like any AD&D game I ever played...)

As for ogres and Str Bonus the ruels say 1d10 or by weapon if you play them as with weapon they get Str bonuses just like giants. I assume that an Ogre sized sword would count as a 2 hander for weapon damage so ...um .... +3/+6 and a d10 ?? You do remember AD&D right .... crappy picture of a demon on the front cover, spine used to go, cover picture got really worn and Pgs 73 & 74 (or was it 74 75????hmmm...) used to go kind of brownish cos that was where the combat tables were.....?

Quote from: Doom;438132Sorry, my bad, no need to be needlessly insulting, much less introduce the goblin strawman.

I was referring to the Kobold Dragonshield, as opposed to all the other random kobolds with random powers that must be memorized since the names of things often have nothing to do with what they do.

Anyway, the Kobold Dragonshield has a randomly named power called Dragonshield Tactics. Since you're probably too incompetent to know what that power does from its name (see how pointlessly annoying that is?) , I'll let you know that it does, indeed, let it shift as an immediate reaction when a player moves adjacent. I apologize for confusing immediate reaction with interrupt. Or are those the same? I guess I could look it up to make sure, but that's rather the point: even with many hours of play it's pretty trivial to get all the precise variants of the timing rules down with perfect precision off the cuff.

In this case the player's move would trigger an immediate reaction by the kobold which would trigger a special attack of opportunity by the fighter which would not be an opportunity attack but would still trigger a free action by the warlock if successful and fatal, but after the attack but before immediate reaction but after the move.

And that's just using 'vanilla' 4e rules, from the very first book.

So, back to the point, yeah, there alot of interactions there.

All right, well, the issue is this:

Dragonshields aren't minions, first of all. They are level 2 soldiers.

Reactions are not interrupts. Reactions occur after the action. Interrupts interrupt the action.

Immediate anythings can only take place when it is not on your turn.  

So if the fighter moves adjacent on his turn.. and the kobold shifts as a reaction, the fighter does not get an interrupt, because he's still on his own turn.

Also, this whole thing only happens once per round, not once per turn.

You are making the timing needlessly complicated. If the fighter kills the kobold (and it's cursed) the warlock gets to do whatever his curse effect is, but that's really his problem. If he's not paying attention, don't sweat it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;438135Curious as to where the squad of 10 guys comes from??? I just said that 3 ogres could take 5 th level PCs not 5 5th level PCs with a squad of guys in a defensive position.....

It's AD&D. You get hirelings. Don't leave home without em!

Quote from: RandallS;438134Ogres using weapons get a +2 to weapon damage in 1e as well. It's just not mentioned in the stat block, but in the descriptive text. Ogre leaders get +3 (or better).

Okay Randall me bad but I am on the right track I think we upped to 18(00) as default ogre strength when we allowed the dubious half-ogre race as a PC (84?)

Quote from: Doom;438133Or, as AM says, happen to have a dozen soldiers ready to fanatically die against much tougher creatures.

This is one of the baseline assumptions of older editions of D&D.

QuoteAnyway, low level characters marching around with a troop of soldiers, much less fanatical ones, was pretty rare in my games of D&D. Never had any such situation in 4e. How about you?

You don't really need them in 4th edition, because that particular edition of the game isn't about managing a squad of troops.

However, if you played the final two or three battles in this season of D&D encounters, you did indeed end up with a squad of hirelings- Restwell Keep's town guard.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;438139This is one of the baseline assumptions of older editions of D&D.

Interesting...every module I have that has a list of pregenerated party members doesn't have anything at all on "by the way, add a dozen soldiers, as per the usual".

Can you give me a page listing on the AD&D DMG where it says something like this? Using the book alot right now, so I have it handy. Thanks!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;438137It's AD&D. You get hirelings. Don't leave home without em!

Nah hierlings are shit. Totally break immersion and genre emulation to me.

Occassionally in play we would collect a group of guards or something but we would never actively hire folks.

Reasons -
i) They distract from the role play as they are either played for laughs or are cardboard
ii) They fail to emulate any of the fiction we were aspiring to. 'Aragron drew his blade as the orcs came over the hill toward the hobbits... get um boys he cried as the 15 soldiers he hired in Bree charged forward.....'
iii) They totally break the concept that the PCs are the exceptional adventurers because they represent a subcategory of the general populace who are just as brave as the party only 4 levels lower...
iv) They drag out combats and turn an exciting battle against 3 ogres into a 45 minute chore.
v) They are rarely played realistically as a bloke on 1sp a day + a 1% cut of loot will be unlikely to lay down his life for a bloke he met in the pub.
vi) They are shit --- did i mention that?

Quote from: Doom;438141Interesting...every module I have that has a list of pregenerated party members doesn't have anything at all on "by the way, add a dozen soldiers, as per the usual".

Can you give me a page listing on the AD&D DMG where it says something like this? Using the book alot right now, so I have it handy. Thanks!

It's near the beginning of the book in the first 50 pages. Look for expert hirelings.

Quote from: jibbajibba;438142Nah hierlings are shit. Totally break immersiona nd genre emulation to me.

Occassionaly in play we woudl colelct a group of guards or something but we would never actively hire folks.

Reasons -
i) They distract from the role play as they are either played for laughs or are cardboard
ii) They fail to emulate any of the fiction we were aspiring to. 'Aragron drew his blade as the orcs came over the hill toward the hobbits... get um boys he cried as the 15 soldiers he hired in Bree charged forward.....'
iii) They totally break the concept that the PCs are the exceptional adventurers because they represent a subcategory of the general populace who are just as brave as the party only 4 levels lower...
iv) They drag out combats and turn an exciting battle against 3 ogres into a 45 minute chore.
v) They are rarely played realistically as a bloke on 1sp a day + a 1% cut of loot will be unlikely to lay down his life for a bloke he met in the pub.
vi) They are shit --- did i mention that?

I actually agree on all points. But they do represent how the game is played.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;438136All right, well, the issue is this:

Dragonshields aren't minions, first of all. They are level 2 soldiers.

Reactions are not interrupts. Reactions occur after the action. Interrupts interrupt the action.

Immediate anythings can only take place when it is not on your turn.  

So if the fighter moves adjacent on his turn.. and the kobold shifts as a reaction, the fighter does not get an interrupt, because he's still on his own turn.

Also, this whole thing only happens once per round, not once per turn.

You are making the timing needlessly complicated. If the fighter kills the kobold (and it's cursed) the warlock gets to do whatever his curse effect is, but that's really his problem. If he's not paying attention, don't sweat it.

You're blatantly misquoting me, and your confusion arises entirely for your inability to read what I actually wrote. I never said anything about minions in reference to interactions these last few posts. I never said it was the fighter that moved initially. Are you being deliberate in these repeated misreads? Your games must be even more complicated if you follow what your players say as well as you follow what I submit in print. Please, take a few moments and actually read what I wrote.

But, going by what I actually said, then, yes, the interactions get pretty sticky pretty fast in 4e, and a single kobold can trivially set off a chain of interractions (and can do so every round) unlike anything in low level D&D.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;438143It's near the beginning of the book in the first 50 pages. Look for expert hirelings.

Sure, players can get such things. They can also get +5 Holy Longswords. Doesn't mean the game is expected to be played with every character in every party to have a +5 Holy Longsword. The game also gives rules for connective tissue disorders such as leprosy, on page 14. Using your logic, every character of every campaign should get leprosy, too, right?

Do you have anything better than this? Something along the lines of what you've actually said, that "the game is played" with parties routinely having a troop of suicide soldiers with them?

It's just so hard to believe that everyone I know has been playing the game totally wrong all the time. But, hey, it's possible. One more chance to back up what you say. Please?