I hate to be the guy pointing out the 3.5 rules but the Bull Rush feat is actually "improved Bull Rush" .. Because anyone can do it. The feat just lets you do it without suffering an Attack of Opportunity and gives you like a +4 to the check.

Although, I'm glad they removed such things for 4th edition (they did- anyone can bull rush now and there's no penalty- but all it does is shove the enemy one square) the attack of Opp wasn't that bad. fighter powers like Tide of Iron cover this pretty nicely now.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;437502I hate to be the guy pointing out the 3.5 rules but the Bull Rush feat is actually "improved Bull Rush" .. Because anyone can do it. The feat just lets you do it without suffering an Attack of Opportunity and gives you like a +4 to the check.

I confess to not being particularly well-read in 3.5e, so thanks for the clarification.

Granted, not all 3.5e Feats worked like this, but a handful did (e.g. Power Attack). Which is why I think it would be relatively easy to salvage/reform the Feat system into something more to my taste.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;437502Although, I'm glad they removed such things for 4th edition (they did- anyone can bull rush now and there's no penalty- but all it does is shove the enemy one square) the attack of Opp wasn't that bad. fighter powers like Tide of Iron cover this pretty nicely now.

I do think 4e does Feats (and Skills) better than 3.0e or 3.5e. I'm still somewhat ambivalent on Powers, though.

Quote from: The Butcher;437487My chief complaint with 3.0e and 3.5e is the fiddly record-keeping that falls on the DM's shoulders, especially when managing encounters with high-level characters and/or multiple characters.

I also dislike the structure of the Feat subsystem (I think 4e got it right by downplaying the importance of picking the right Feats).

Hell, I've even adapted concepts (like monster "templates") to the previous editions I usually play.

The "Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard" thing is hardly exclusive to 3.x.

For me though, as far as fiddly record keeping goes 4th edition puts more on the DM's shoulders, not less

Though I do like 4th edition.

Quote from: Daedalus;437536For me though, as far as fiddly record keeping goes 4th edition puts more on the DM's shoulders, not less

Though I do like 4th edition.

The tracking of all the different conditions and/or effects drives me batshit.

So I tend to agree with your assessment.

Quote from: PaladinCA;437570The tracking of all the different conditions and/or effects drives me batshit.

So I tend to agree with your assessment.

/agreed

Tracking who's effect starts at either the beginning or end of who's turn gets convoluted with large groups and big encounters.

Quote from: PaladinCA;437570The tracking of all the different conditions and/or effects drives me batshit.

So I tend to agree with your assessment.

That's why I have ordered Tunnels and Trolls.  While I do like 4e if I can get something a little more rules light and doesnt make the DM's job difficult I will switch to that instead.

Quote from: The Butcher;437493The OSR has been moving from straight retro-clones (OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry) to "tribute games" which experiment with and expand on the "classic D&D" format (Spellcraft & Swordplay, Stars Without Number)

Adventures Dark & Deep (Spin on the 2nd edition that never was), Dragons at Dawn (Spin on "what if Dave Arneson's rules were melted into a coherent whole?"). Even the different versions of Swords & Wizardry can qualify as games that never were (S&W Core rules as OD&D+Supplement 1 as a single book, S&W Complete as OD&D+bits and pieces of the whole Supplement run).

Quote from: Drohem;437572/agreed

Tracking who's effect starts at either the beginning or end of who's turn gets convoluted with large groups and big encounters.

I hate playing any game has more than 5 players or so.

I'm wondering why it is people find condition tracking to be more difficult in 4e than in previous editions. Earlier versions of the game had condition effects and they could last anywhere from a few rounds, to a few minutes, to whenever the creature saves. In 4E, conditions essentially last either one round or until the target makes a save. There were even more conditions in 3.x than in 4th edition.

Still, the system could stand to be more streamlined. If it were up to me, I would have a different condition track (ala' Star Wars Saga Edition) for each attribute. Instead of stacking different conditions, the target gets bumped farther down the track they were already on. Buff spells and such would move characters to the + end of the track. Detrimental effects all end on a save, whereas beneficial effects require the caster to spend an action to sustain.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;437502I hate to be the guy pointing out the 3.5 rules but the Bull Rush feat is actually "improved Bull Rush" .. Because anyone can do it. The feat just lets you do it without suffering an Attack of Opportunity and gives you like a +4 to the check.

Although, I'm glad they removed such things for 4th edition (they did- anyone can bull rush now and there's no penalty- but all it does is shove the enemy one square) the attack of Opp wasn't that bad. fighter powers like Tide of Iron cover this pretty nicely now.

Well, in 3.x you had one combat maneuver everyone could attempt, and one feat to improve your chances at succeeding. The distance you pushed your opponent dependend on the degree of that success, determined by a single die roll. That's it though. One maneuver, one feat.

Then 4E PHB 1 appears and codifies 32 possible outcomes of such a maneuver - do X damage and push target 1-3 squares - into individual powers. I must say, I find the 3.x version more elegant.

I'm serious here. I appreciate that PHB 1 did not give us three different write-ups for each at-will, depending on the increase in its efficiency as you level up. Could as well have done the same for Tide of Iron (referring here to Silverstep and Mountain Breaking Blow).

Quote from: Shazbot79;437601I'm wondering why it is people find condition tracking to be more difficult in 4e than in previous editions.

Maybe they track players' conditions, too?

But I do agree with them to a degree. I do think it's easier to apply a condition to an opponent, above and beyond Bloodied, which is a new condition that can be laid at everyone's door.

Seanchai

Quote from: Shazbot79;437601I hate playing any game has more than 5 players or so.

I'm wondering why it is people find condition tracking to be more difficult in 4e than in previous editions. Earlier versions of the game had condition effects and they could last anywhere from a few rounds, to a few minutes, to whenever the creature saves. In 4E, conditions essentially last either one round or until the target makes a save. There were even more conditions in 3.x than in 4th edition.

Still, the system could stand to be more streamlined. If it were up to me, I would have a different condition track (ala' Star Wars Saga Edition) for each attribute. Instead of stacking different conditions, the target gets bumped farther down the track they were already on. Buff spells and such would move characters to the + end of the track. Detrimental effects all end on a save, whereas beneficial effects require the caster to spend an action to sustain.

Personally, it has to do with when these conditions start and stop because you can have multiple conditions that either start or stop on either the start or end of either your round or your opponent's round.  In 3.x D&D, the conditions were tracked in whole round units which could easily be ticked off on a scratch sheet.  Now, you have to verify the condition at the start of a round for your character(s) or the affected opponent(s), and at the end of round for your character(s) or the affected opponent(s).

Egads, I hope that makes sense.

Give em some jelly beans, for tracking different 4E conditions.  Once they save, they can eat the particular jelly bean.  

Quote from: ggroy;437630Give em some jelly beans, for tracking different 4E conditions.  Once they save, they can eat the particular jelly bean.  

Well, if I wanted to play Chinese Checkers, I'd play Chinese Checkers!

Quote from: ggroy;437630Give em some jelly beans, for tracking different 4E conditions.  Once they save, they can eat the particular jelly bean.  

Hey, a color-coded scheme like that might actually work!

I plunked down $70 or so for Aleatools, a big set of magnetized disks that you can stack under a figure.

Even when it became common for 4+ disks to get stacked under a monster (slowed, dazed, poisoned, on fire, marked, radiant vulnerable, etc), the disks stacked well. I don't see how you can do that with jelly beans rolling around.

But keeping track of all that crap, along with all the other +1/-1/+2/-2 stuff that went on that didn't have labeled effects since it was situation dependent, was a mess.