Quote from: Seanchai;434402Because the combats are more fun with 4e.

Seanchai

I will freely admit that it's fun to be able to force movement on your target.  I love GURPS combat but damnit that's an option that needs implemented.  It wouldn't be so appropriate for Rolemaster which is still a long round (regardless of the time frame set, the amount that is accomplished in a round...), multi blow system where moves can cross the table in a round.

The big problem is the implementation.  The powers system and advanced combat as an option would have been brilliant.  As the system core it's just far more than most people want or need.  One of the reasons I run Rolemaster over GURPS is the combat still boils down to rolling to hit.

Quote from: Seanchai;434402Because the combats are more fun with 4e.

Seanchai

When the majority of your game is combat, you might be right.

Quote from: JasperAK;434421When the majority of your game is combat, you might be right.

I'd say it a bit differently:

When the majority of your game is combat and that's what you want from a tabletop RPG, you might be right.

The majority of our 4e sessions are combat, and I'm pretty happy with that for D&D, especially when it's as dynamic and fun as 4e combat. If that were the only game in town, I might be upset, but it's not--tonight for e.g. we got some Lacuna. 4E is a great game. It's not all things for all people but so what?

Quote from: Benoist;434413It's like saying that kraft dinner is better than pasta with crème fraiche, mushrooms, gorgonzola and a nice chianti. I mean sure, sometimes. But always better, all the time? Yeah. No.

You've misunderstood. With 4e, I can have great exploration, great roleplaying, great mysteries, great political dramas, et al., AND great combat.

I don't need much in the way of mechanics for exploration. I don't need mechanics for roleplaying, mystery, etc.. In terms of these things, BD&D, AD&D, second edition, 3e, and 4e all work equally well.

However, I, personally, have found that combats in 4e are fun and engaging. It's a time to lean forward over the game table to see what's going to happen, not lean back and wait for your turn.

So I'm happy with 4e because it adds something to the game that wasn't there, not because I'm going to run a lot of combats (so far, we've had three combats - only one of which was major - in the course of four six-hour sessions).

Seanchai

Despite the sociopathic obsessional rantings of the haters, 4e fans still seem to be enjoying the game, and we now have over 150 people signed up for the meetup I kinda manage. I know I am still enjoying it. 4E is still the best version of D&D ever published (I guess that's what we call "an opinion" type statement). But really, it's been a great year- launched my own campaign world, ran the all-drow campaign, My GF and I went to GenCon.. completed the Raven's Bluff series..once as a player and then as a DM. Ran several sessions of Gamma World. I've been having a great time. Why would that be "brutal"? Personally speaking, this has been the greatest year of gaming I can remember.

Oh wait- that wasn't what you were asking, really. You were asking if constant obsessional ranting against WOTC by fucking mongoloid ex-gamers has impacted my ability to enjoy a game.. and the answer is.. nope. Didn't stop any of us at all.

I'm trying to imagine the levels of self-hatred that spurred this thread.

I thought he was talking about sales, not personal enjoyment by individual players.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;434429Despite the sociopathic obsessional rantings of the haters, 4e fans still seem to be enjoying the game, and we now have over 150 people signed up for the meetup I kinda manage. I know I am still enjoying it. 4E is still the best version of D&D ever published (I guess that's what we call "an opinion" type statement). But really, it's been a great year- launched my own campaign world, ran the all-drow campaign, My GF and I went to GenCon.. completed the Raven's Bluff series..once as a player and then as a DM. Ran several sessions of Gamma World. I've been having a great time. Why would that be "brutal"? Personally speaking, this has been the greatest year of gaming I can remember.

AM, I always love hearing you talk about your games and associations and involvement with organized play.

Serious questions here:

Have you seen any division, or clear lines drawn, between 4e D&D and 4e Essential players in the organized play arenas?

Are groups sticking to one or the other?  Or are they freely mixing it up together?

Quote from: David Johansen;434335What 4e did was shift the focus to detail freaks and wargamers.  It's not a bad game, just one that utterly misunderstood why D&D has been so popular for so long.

Excellent insight.  I think that is the underlying irritant for many so-called grognards, and even a number of 3.x fans.  Although I would argue that 3.x was already headed this way to a great extent, it was still possible to muscle the game in other directions, if desired.

Quote from: Drohem;434432AM, I always love hearing you talk about your games and associations and involvement with organized play.

Serious questions here:

Have you seen any division, or clear lines drawn, between 4e D&D and 4e Essential players in the organized play arenas?

Are groups sticking to one or the other?  Or are they freely mixing it up together?

It gets mixed up.

For D&D Encounters, it's meant to be Essentials only- for simplicity purposes. However, people frequently break this rule, as soon as they figure out that there isn't any consequence.  Early on in Keep on the Borderlands- there was no support in the builder for Essentials (there is now- we are on week 18 of a 20 week program).

 If you look on the Facebook "what are you planning to play for next season?" question (which is set in the Ghost Tower of Inverness, btw) a lot of people are talking about playing psions or warforged or whatever else that is definitely not in Essentials. So there's a lot of people playing core stuff.

On the other hand I think there is a noted advantage to playing some Essentials stuff- Essentials Thief and the Essentials Scout do a ton of damage and hit very consistently. The Essentials Mage is a much more reliable controller. Still- I'd rather play an Invoker, I'd rather play just about any fighter than a Knight. The Hexblade is kinda interesting but nowhere near as cool as the 4 or 5 flavors of Warlock you can get from core The Cavalier is cool because it gets some mounted stuff.. so.. short story: Essentials isn't really an identity in itself.

For the Monday "my own world" campaign- I have a Hybrid Invoker/Shaman (core, obviously), a Kenku Assassin (core race), a dwarf Slayer (that's an Essentials PC- in fact, it's based on the pregen of the dwarf slayer from Keep on the Borderlands, just leveled up), and an elven rogue (core type). So purely by those numbers core still has a bit of a lead.

I'm agnostic on it. I think Essentials characters are for beginners- they have most of the interesting choices made ahead of time in order to be easy to predict.

One thing I find annoying about Essentials: You can't use the builder to make an unexpected choice. Like- by the book- halflings can be wizards, but if you load up the builder and pull down the D&D Encounters campaign.. halflings won't get the choice to be a Mage.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;434431I thought he was talking about sales, not personal enjoyment by individual players.

Why would "4e fans" be concerned about sales? Are we getting a cut?

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;434431I thought he was talking about sales, not personal enjoyment by individual players.

Book sales or sales?

Seanchai

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;434429Despite the sociopathic obsessional rantings of the haters

Are you threatening me?

I am cornholio!

Quote from: Drohem;434432Have you seen any division, or clear lines drawn, between 4e D&D and 4e Essential players in the organized play arenas?

Are groups sticking to one or the other?  Or are they freely mixing it up together?

I allowed the use of Heinsoo 4E characters (ie. non-Essentials) in my 4E Encounters game this season, whenever I was DMing.  Though technically I probably wasn't suppose to be doing this.

4e combat is shitty combat.

Take your grids and tokens, and f*ck off.

Give me pre-3e-era combat any day of the week.