Indeed, minions just don't work as written; I've systematically tried a number of things, thnking something might work since my players only seldom used a Wizard/controller in the party.

In theory, a bunch of ranged minions should work, but in practice, no, not one bit, unless you go totally over the top like "20 minions, each 6 spaces apart, each in a private 30' by 30' cage"...in theory that might work, but you've still got the low damage problem that in practice would make it irrelevant (and ranger's twin strike thins them out soon enough, if nothing else). But you really need to separate them in such a way that there's no way to get them bunched together, and that's difficult at best, impossible on WoTC's maps.

That's the thing, almost every class has plenty of AoE/multi-attack abilities of one sort or another.

Another theory that's quickly blown out of the water is the supposedly awesome 'overwhelming' players, but the weak "+2 from flanking" is more than offset by how trivially they are destroyed if they try such a tactic.

And, again, I'm not talking about level 1 characters here (i.e., where 4e was playtested, and where it works well), it's once you hit past around level 5 that minions don't work as claimed.

Quote from: Doom;436268Indeed, minions just don't work as written; I've systematically tried a number of things, thnking something might work since my players only seldom used a Wizard/controller in the party.

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Another theory that's quickly blown out of the water is the supposedly awesome 'overwhelming' players, but the weak "+2 from flanking" is more than offset by how trivially they are destroyed if they try such a tactic.

I don't get it. Why do you want minions to overwhelm PCs? They're not supposed to be a serious threat. They're supposed to be enough of a threat that they demand the PCs' attention, but they're not the really important issue. They're meant to force one or more of the PCs to spend a round or two dealing with them rather the real threat at hand. Every point of damage that is spent on a minion is a point of damage not spent on the boss, and gives the boss another moment of life to hurt the PCs.

I agree that dragon and giant and lich minions is silly. I wouldn't use them in a game I was running. I'd give the lich, dragon, or giant minions of a different type. So there's the rules contain an application of a mechanic that doesn't make sense. Big deal. The solution is easy: don't use that application of the mechanic. It doesn't mean the mechanic itself is worthless, just that it isn't appropriate for every situation.

Quote from: two_fishes;436274I don't get it. Why do you want minions to overwhelm PCs? They're not supposed to be a serious threat. They're supposed to be enough of a threat that they demand the PCs' attention, but they're not the really important issue. They're meant to force one or more of the PCs to spend a round or two dealing with them rather the real threat at hand. Every point of damage that is spent on a minion is a point of damage not spent on the boss, and gives the boss another moment of life to hurt the PCs.
.

Hey, I agree the overwhelming isn't necessarily something you want...it's just another flawed thing 4rries bring about how minions should work. But they don't work that way.

Yes, in theory, minions SHOULD be something the players waste time on. But, they don't work that way, either, since the preponderance of AoE/multi attack powers means minions are almost always trivially destroyed as collateral damage of 'real' attacks, not slowing down the players in any way.

Quote from: Doom;436278Hey, I agree the overwhelming isn't necessarily something you want...it's just another flawed thing 4rries bring about how minions should work. But they don't work that way.

Yes, in theory, minions SHOULD be something the players waste time on. But, they don't work that way, either, since the preponderance of AoE/multi attack powers means minions are almost always trivially destroyed as collateral damage of 'real' attacks, not slowing down the players in any way.

Are you clumping all the minions together with the boss-men?

They really should be arrayed so that PCs can't hit minions and a boss at the same time with an AoE. Someone usually has to deal with the minions specifically. Often a bunch of them are packed around a fighter, say, while the boss busies itself with someone else. The fighter might have to expend an AoE attack to get rid of them. Or the wizard might want to, but have to worry about hitting the fighter as well. Also any one AoE spell doesn't usually get rid of all the minions--each one requires a separate attack roll, after all, giving them the opportunity to attack again and whittle down the PCs resources before they're snuffed.

Also, we don't see minions showing up in every fight. Maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of fights have minions.

Quote from: two_fishes;436274I don't get it. Why do you want minions to overwhelm PCs? They're not supposed to be a serious threat. They're supposed to be enough of a threat that they demand the PCs' attention, but they're not the really important issue. They're meant to force one or more of the PCs to spend a round or two dealing with them rather the real threat at hand.

If that's the sole design goals of minions, they're colossally overdesigned. A small skill challenge inside an encounter which requires three successful skill checks (each requiring a standard action) accomplishes the same in three lines of text. Instead of a whole effing stat block with damage, defense, attack values, base stats, and what have you. Traps would be another good mechanism, to stay within the realms of 4E'isms, to draw a small number of PC standard actions.

Seriously, I'd rather use the mook rules of FFG's Deathwatch which has you track ONE hit point number for ONE swarm of mooks. Rather than this excessive book keeping of six stat blocks ("oh, so minion 3 goes down, while minion 4 gets a +2 thanks to flanking, and ...").

Edit. That FFG thing got me thinking - design 4E mook swarms like 4E traps and you'd be done. Just pretend the trap can move and disperse.

Quote from: Windjammer;436288If that's the sole design goals of minions, they're colossally overdesigned. A small skill challenge inside an encounter which requires three successful skill checks (each requiring a standard action) accomplishes the same in three lines of text. Instead of a whole effing stat block with damage, defense, attack values, base stats, and what have you. Traps would be another good mechanism, to stay within the realms of 4E'isms, to draw a small number of PC standard actions.

4e traps have a stat block as big as a minion.

And, god, the whinging about minions is bad enough. Can you imagine what it would be like if WotC had reduced a subset of monsters to a skill challenge? Boards would have immolated themselves with the self-righteous indignation of the grognards.

Other than that, I don't think it's a half-bad idea. A friend of mine in Toronto is trying something similar--making a quick combat system for 4e that looks something like a more-complex skill-challenge.

Quote from: Doom;436257Wow, now I strongly believe you're trolling.

Why? Because I'm disagreeing with you? I know this may be hard to believe, but people with opposing opinions are not trolls.

QuoteOk, so we're both in agreement they make no sense and are silly and ridiculous.

No, they make perfect sense. They're the faceless bad guys you see in every action movie ever made.

It doesn't matter what they're doing when the PCs are level zero because there is no level zero. You can't say something is bad because it doesn't do something it's not trying or built to do. It's like saying my car is terrible because it doesn't function as a boat.

You keep focusing on this "well, what level are 1st level minions a full-on threat", when again I state it doesn't matter. When you get right down to the basic point, they're just minions. They exist to "fill in the gaps" in the fight scenes (so to speak). It doesn't matter what they do when they're off the clock, or what they do when the PCs are in the next town over. Are you incapable of suspending your disbelief?

I know a lot of people around here like to focus on "verisimilitude" and worrying about what happens "off-screen", but when you get right down to it it doesn't matter what NPCs or monsters or whatever do when the PCs aren't around, because they don't exist when the PCs aren't around. What are they doing when off-screen? Who cares? They only matter when the meet up with the PCs in a role-playing scene or fight or whatever. I mean, do you watch movies or read books or whatever and actually care about what the secondary characters do on their days off? Do you care where they go shopping or how they spend a rainy afternoon?

You don's seem to have noticed my question, FunTyrant, so I'll ask again: are you Professor Cirno?

Quote from: two_fishes;4362904e traps have a stat block as big as a minion.

And, god, the whinging about minions is bad enough. Can you imagine what it would be like if WotC had reduced a subset of monsters to a skill challenge? Boards would have immolated themselves with the self-righteous indignation of the grognards.

Other than that, I don't think it's a half-bad idea. A friend of mine in Toronto is trying something similar--making a quick combat system for 4e that looks something like a more-complex skill-challenge.

Ah, but I'm taking it the other way round. Traps, right there in 4E DMG 1, already ARE mini skill challenges inside a combat - with clear failure conditions (you get hit by damage). Modelling any mechanic (like that of mooks) on FULL skill challenges, otoh, is a bad awful idea, I agree.

Quote from: FunTyrant;436291Why? Because I'm disagreeing with you? I know this may be hard to believe, but people with opposing opinions are not trolls.

Simple disagreement isn't trolling. What you're doing, is.

We are, in fact, in agreement that minions don't make any sense, past that, I'm mostly just trying to help you a bit to understand problems in this game you've read about, perhaps.

QuoteIt doesn't matter what they're doing when the PCs are level zero because there is no level zero.

Ok, maybe we've made some progress here, and you finally understand why your earlier assertion doesn't make sense. Finally.

QuoteYou keep focusing on this "well, what level are 1st level minions a full-on threat", when again I state it doesn't matter. When you get right down to the basic point, they're just minions. They exist to "fill in the gaps" in the fight scenes (so to speak). It doesn't matter what they do when they're off the clock, or what they do when the PCs are in the next town over.

Again, we're in complete agreement that they don't make any sense. Not sure why you keep hammering the point home. You're right, you're right, you're absolutely right that they don't make any sense. Whether or not it matters, is a personal thing.

But, back to the point: they don't work in the rules, either, above and beyond whether they make any sense, above and beyond whether they SHOULD make any sense.

QuoteAre you incapable of suspending your disbelief?

Absolutely, do it all the time. But, back to the point, minions don't actually work in the rules.

QuoteI know a lot of people around here like to focus on "verisimilitude" and worrying about what happens "off-screen", but when you get right down to it it doesn't matter what NPCs or monsters or whatever do when the PCs aren't around, because they don't exist when the PCs aren't around.

Again, agreed, they don't make any sense at all. But, back to the point, minions don't actually work in the rules.

QuoteWhat are they doing when off-screen? Who cares? They only matter when the meet up with the PCs in a role-playing scene or fight or whatever.

Again, agreed, they don't make any sense at all. But, back to the point, minions don't actually work in the rules.

The part I care about, is whether they actually work in the rules...which they don't, as discussed.

Are we done here now, or do you wish to expound more on minions not making any sense? I don't really see the need, because, honest, I agree with you. In any event, I do appreciate you finally not feigning familiarity with the game as it is actually played.

Quote from: two_fishes;436280Are you clumping all the minions together with the boss-men?

Again, classic. Minions can't be near the other monsters....or far away from them. Or near the players. Or far away from them.

Exactly the point, they just don't belong.

QuoteThey really should be arrayed so that PCs can't hit minions and a boss at the same time with an AoE.

Heh, again, in theory, sure. But in practice? Extraordinarily difficult to pull off, and really only possible with ranged minions, in special circumstances.

Hey, prove me wrong, here. Can you cite one (1) encounter in any published 4e adventure where "minions attacking in melee" to your specs there is actually a credible possibility past a single round?

Just one. Please. Show me wrong. I dare you.

QuoteOften a bunch of them are packed around a fighter, say, while the boss busies itself with someone else.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...didn't you just a little earlier say they weren't supposed to swarm? If they do that, then they're near the fight, so they're going to be near the bossman.

QuoteThe fighter might have to expend an AoE attack to get rid of them.

Maybe, maybe not. Realistically, he'll 'expend' one of his AOE encounter powers to get rid of them, hitting an actual monster in the process. Worst case, cleave as an at-will...really minions are not even speed bumps in actual practice.

QuoteOr the wizard might want to, but have to worry about hitting the fighter as well.

Or he'll just use an AOE that only affects enemies. Or he'll just use the AOE on one side, taking out a few minions at no risk to his friend. Or his friend will simply shift/move away on his turn, totally negating that alleged 'worry'. Oopsie, another hypothetical that doesn't work in practice.

QuoteAlso any one AoE spell doesn't usually get rid of all the minions--each one requires a separate attack roll, after all, giving them the opportunity to attack again and whittle down the PCs resources before they're snuffed.

Oopsie, effects like stinking cloud or flaming sphere don't actually require attack rolls, and take them out automatically, round after round. And it isn't really an 'any one AoE' situation, since just about ALL classes have area effects or multi-target abilities, anyway.

QuoteAlso, we don't see minions showing up in every fight. Maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of fights have minions.

True that, if you only use minions every once in a while, they're even more worthless, since players will definitely have their minion slaughtering/monster hurting dailies available.

Quote from: Doom;436306Again, classic. Minions can't be near the other monsters....or far away from them. Or near the players. Or far away from them.

Exactly the point, they just don't belong.

You're exaggerating. It's tactical game. Players have to make good tactical decisions. This includes the DM. The DM has to make smart tactical decisions to play the game well.

Quote

QuoteThey really should be arrayed so that PCs can't hit minions and a boss at the same time with an AoE.

Heh, again, in theory, sure. But in practice? Extraordinarily difficult to pull off, and really only possible with ranged minions, in special circumstances.

Hey, prove me wrong, here. Can you cite one (1) encounter in any published 4e adventure where "minions attacking in melee" to your specs there is actually a credible possibility past a single round?

Just one. Please. Show me wrong. I dare you.

Is it really so difficult to pull off? DM that I've played with have managed to make it happen. Maybe we're crap players? I haven't partaken in published modules in quite a while, so I can't speak to that, but as I said, more than one DM I've gamed with has managed to pull off this oh-so-difficult manoeuvre. Maybe you have really awesome players, or maybe they're just smarter than you.

 

QuoteWhoa, whoa, whoa...didn't you just a little earlier say they weren't supposed to swarm? If they do that, then they're near the fight, so they're going to be near the bossman.

Wow that's a pretty liberal interpretation of what I wrote, isn't it? I didn't say they weren't supposed to swarm, I said they should be separated from the bossman, a separate threat. Some minions are better when the swarm as a group, some are better when they spread out. Play the game tactically to the strengths of the particular monster you are using. Seriously, you are truly unable to accomplish this? How big are the spaces you're playing in? Most AoE attacks only affect 3x3 squares (yes, I know there are larger ones, but they're far less common). You're really unable to get the minions 3 squares away from a boss critter? How about interspersing them with the PCs so that AoEs affect the PCs, too? I'm starting to suspect a PEBKAC problem here.

QuoteMaybe, maybe not. Realistically, he'll 'expend' one of his AOE encounter powers to get rid of them, hitting an actual monster in the process. Worst case, cleave as an at-will...really minions are not even speed bumps in actual practice.

Your actual practice clearly differs from mine!

QuoteOr he'll just use an AOE that only affects enemies. Or he'll just use the AOE on one side, taking out a few minions at no risk to his friend. Or his friend will simply shift/move away on his turn, totally negating that alleged 'worry'. Oopsie, another hypothetical that doesn't work in practice.

Oopsie, effects like stinking cloud or flaming sphere don't actually require attack rolls, and take them out automatically, round after round. And it isn't really an 'any one AoE' situation, since just about ALL classes have area effects or multi-target abilities, anyway.

Oh my god! The players have sound tactical choices that you have to respond to! Oh, the horror! The DM has to be clever!

Quote from: two_fishes;436307.
Is it really so difficult to pull off? DM that I've played with have managed to make it happen. Maybe we're crap players? I haven't partaken in published modules in quite a while, so I can't speak to that, but as I said, more than one DM I've gamed with has managed to pull off this oh-so-difficult manoeuvre. Maybe you have really awesome players, or maybe they're just smarter than you.

Disregarding the insults and irrelevant hyperbolem, I'll again ask for just one example. Please, prove me wrong. I dare you. Please, just one example, one published module. If it's so easy to have a bunch of minions and a boss monster melee the party in such a way that no aoe can affect boss and minions as you claim regardless of what the players do. Surely WoTC would have one example by now.

Failing that, one encounter using only published rules. Show me the map and monster mix, and I'll see if I can't trivially move my characters in such a way as to make what you claim is so easy, is in fact actually impossible.

Just one example. Please. Just one. Just one. Please.

Thanks.

Quote from: two_fishes;436307You're exaggerating. It's tactical game. Players have to make good tactical decisions. This includes the DM. The DM has to make smart tactical decisions to play the game well.

Yes, but that's besides the point. Minions don't work.

QuoteIs it really so difficult to pull off? DM that I've played with have managed to make it happen. Maybe we're crap players? I haven't partaken in published modules in quite a while, so I can't speak to that, but as I said, more than one DM I've gamed with has managed to pull off this oh-so-difficult manoeuvre. Maybe you have really awesome players, or maybe they're just smarter than you.

Quote from: two_fishes;436307.
Is it really so difficult to pull off? DM that I've played with have managed to make it happen. Maybe we're crap players? I haven't partaken in published modules in quite a while, so I can't speak to that, but as I said, more than one DM I've gamed with has managed to pull off this oh-so-difficult manoeuvre. Maybe you have really awesome players, or maybe they're just smarter than you.

Disregarding the insults and irrelevant hyperbolem, I'll again ask for just one example. Please, prove me wrong. I dare you. Please, just one example, one published module/encounter. If it's so easy to have a bunch of minions and a boss monster melee the party in such a way that no aoe can affect boss and minions as you claim regardless of what the players do for turn after turn, that the players are incapable of getting within 3 spaces of each other, bare minimum. Surely WoTC would have one example by now.

Failing that, one encounter using only published rules. Show me the map and monster mix and sane conditions (eg, no "only one player in party" or "all players have no equipment, permanently blinded, hanging from ropes 50' away from each other"...just 'typical' dungeon conditions), and I'll see if I can't trivially move my characters in such a way as to make what you claim is so easy, is in fact actually impossible.

Just one example. Please. Just one. Just one. Please.

Thanks.

 

QuoteWow that's a pretty liberal interpretation of what I wrote, isn't it? I didn't say they weren't supposed to swarm, I said they should be separated from the bossman, a separate threat.

Again, just one example of what you claim is so easy?

QuoteYou're really unable to get the minions 3 squares away from a boss critter? How about interspersing them with the PCs so that AoEs affect the PCs, too? I'm starting to suspect a PEBKAC problem here.

Well, um, how do you keep the players more than 2 squares away from the boss critter, especially with the boss in melee? Oopsie, theorycraft destroyed by application, again. Yes I suppose you could put a moat or something down, or force only one player to teleport in to fight the boss singlehanded...but that's well outside the published rules, and doing that for every. single. minion. fight. would be be stupid. Just one example. Please. I do believe you are between your keyboard and chair...sitting at the gaming table would help clear things up, honest.

QuoteYour actual practice clearly differs from mine!

I'm so glad to hear this, since that means you'll now have no trouble providing 2 examples. Care to boast more? If you really had had so many such fights, you could have trivially given an example long before now, eh?

QuoteOh my god! The players have sound tactical choices that you have to respond to! Oh, the horror! The DM has to be clever!

Again, just demonstrating, as you now acknowledge, that minions don't work if the players are able to make even minimally sane tactical choices. There's really no GM response to "one player shifts, the other activates AoE power, monsters die"...other than to include more monsters or something. This is a turn-based game, even if I guess maybe it reads differently in the rulebooks. Anyway, that we've agreed on that, I'm still eager to see that example on the one situation where, maybe, they might work in exactly one case. But I'd like to see that example. Well, two examples as per published rules, since you assert that it's so trivial.

Thanks!

Quote from: Doom;436314Failing that, one encounter using only published rules. Show me the map and monster mix and sane conditions (eg, no "only one player in party" or "all players have no equipment, permanently blinded, hanging from ropes 50' away from each other"...just 'typical' dungeon conditions), and I'll see if I can't trivially move my characters in such a way as to make what you claim is so easy, is in fact actually impossible.

Just one example. Please. Just one. Just one. Please.

Here ya go.