Quote from: FunTyrant;436153My, what a well thought-out and persuasive argument! It must have taken you a long time to put that counter-argument together!

1989 has an ax to grind with 4e so thats all you are going to get from them.  I would ignore them, you arent going to get anything of value from them

Technically a Heinsoo 4E minion's "hit points" is actually indeterminate.  (ie. The "no damage on a miss" clause).

Wonder if they changed this over the last year or two.  (Looks up 4E Essentials RC).

Blah.  The 4E Essentials "Rules Compendium" book says very little about minions.

Will need to see the 4E Essentials "DM kit" and "Monster Vault" instead.  (Don't have either box set).

Quote from: FunTyrant;436161What mental gymnastics? They're mooks. Their whole purpose in the fight is to get in the PC's way and get mowed down. Like, well, pretty much every action movie ever made.

D&D isn't an action movie.  D&D is a game.  Die Hard is an action movie.  And there are no mooks.

QuoteIs it really that hard to say some critters are just "Imperial Stormtrooper" style combatants?

Is it really that hard to add another monster that doesn't pop on the first successful attack?

QuoteI also don't remember there being 1-hp dragons, anyway. I might be misremembering though.

If it is a minion dragon, it has one hit point.

QuoteHey, at least I'm actually contributing to the conversation rather than just saying "you're stupid".

In this instance, the first part does not follow from the second part.

QuoteAnd besides, why on earth would you need to come up with some convoluted rules and mechanics to have what amounts to the same outcome as 1 hp minions? Why make things that complicated?

If 'complicated' concerns you, I would suggest finding a different hobby.

Quote from: ggroy;436184Technically a Heinsoo 4E minion's "hit points" is actually indeterminate.  (ie. The "no damage on a miss" clause).

True, but it is easier to talk about if you look at it from the 'one hit defeat' standpoint.  Otherwise, you are stuck with Schrödinger's minions.

You keep saying "invalid". I don't think it means what you think it means.

Quote from: Doom;436182Because it completely contradicts what you just said was the reason for them. So, invalid response.

Contradicts how? You're the one who doesn't get how minions work.

QuoteExactly! I'm betting you're a little suprised, too. Pretty much invalid.

No, I know where "level 0" came from. It doesn't exist in 4e (and I don't think it should have existed in previous editions either, but that's a different topic). Since there's no "level 0" in 4e, how it would interact with existing mechanics is a bit of a pointless question. So...I guess that makes your argument invalid then.

QuoteBut "Armor of Agathys" and "Armor of Agathys" look like the same thing to me. Also, you can meet the goblins in one room, and the 1hp cyclops in the next, and the characters might well have not leveled up between rooms. So, invalid, again.

Well, yes, you could have that set-up if your GM had no idea how to put encounters together. Kobold minions and cyclops minions wouldn't be fighting the same PCs because they're designed to go up against PCs of different level tiers. It'd be like saying the "in 2e, I could have 1 HD goblins in one room and a 15 HDred dragon in the next, therefore the mosters in that edition are broken".
Besides, why would minions try to get close to the guy who's clearly killing them just by standing next to them? They'd hang back and used ranged attacks, or deal with other targets.

QuoteBecause they're not being mowed down, they've being removed as part of a bookkeeping actions. So, invalid. Again.

Unlike every other monster who's being removed by bookkeeping actions? It's not like minions take different kinds of damage from other monsters. ANY damage being dealt to ANYTHING in ANY game is bookkeeping.

[/quote]
Great in theory, and certainly for low levels. But in actually, no, this doesn't happen, and can't happen, as explained earlier due to the preponderance of area effect spells. So, invalid, again.[/quote]
That's assuming that a) the minions group into convenient groups to get fireballed, b) they don't use any type of strategy, and c) it would be impossible to miss a minion. Minions still have defenses appropriate to their level, so it's not like you can just cast the big boom and automatically clear the room.

QuoteMany times, trying many things to make minions relevant. I finally gave up when I pitted 80 level 12 minions (grimlocks) as well as 5 'normal' monsters against a level 12 party (something like a level +16 encounter, if I recall correctly)....they were irrelevant and the party was hardly challenged (one player used one daily), there are too many book-keeping auto-damage effects at that level to make them work in an exciting way, even if they even made any sort of sense at all. I'm guessing you haven't actually tried, which is why your counters are so obviously invalid to me and anyone else who has played. Go and try using minions as you've mentioned here, against live human beings, preferably in a level 10 or so party, and you'll see how the theory you've presented is meaningless in practice.

80 minions? How the hell does that work on the map? Were they all bunched up in "please nuke me" groups? If they were, of course they would be ineffective, they'd be in each other's ways and not be able to do anything strategic. Sounds more like GM failure to me, really.

Quote from: FunTyrant;436195Well, yes, you could have that set-up if your GM had no idea how to put encounters together. Kobold minions and cyclops minions wouldn't be fighting the same PCs because they're designed to go up against PCs of different level tiers. It'd be like saying the "in 2e, I could have 1 HD goblins in one room and a 15 HDred dragon in the next, therefore the mosters in that edition are broken".

Except that a 1HD goblin and a 15HD dragon have different hit points.  A kobold minion and a Cyclops minion do not.

IIRC, I vaguely remember there was a minion monster in this season's 4E Encounters "Keep on the Borderlands" game, which had something like resist 5 to certain types of damage.  How the DM played it, was that the player had to do at least 6 hit points of damage to kill this particular minion.

With the "no damage on a miss" and resist 5, it just made things look more weird.

Quote from: FunTyrant;436195You keep saying "invalid". I don't think it means what you think it means.

You're confused.

QuoteContradicts how? You're the one who doesn't get how minions work.

You're confusing yourself here. Go back and reread the posts.

QuoteNo, I know where "level 0" came from. It doesn't exist in 4e (and I don't think it should have existed in previous editions either, but that's a different topic). Since there's no "level 0" in 4e, how it would interact with existing mechanics is a bit of a pointless question. So...I guess that makes your argument invalid then.

No, you're confused. Again.

I'll go over it more carefully. You said "at that level" the monsters would no longer be a threat as in, characters eventually gain levels so that "lower level" monsters turn into minions.

But "level 1 minions" contradicts this assertion. They're minions. At level 1. Character that are level 1 have gained no more levels, and yet, by your logic, have gained enough enough levels so that the monsters have turned into minions.

But you're also saying they didn't get levels. So you're saying the levels not gained are the ones that when gained make the monsters turn into minions when the adventurers gain the levels they could not have gained.

You're not making much sense here. I'm not supposed to pit, say, a level 20 minions against a level 1 wizard, since the wizard hasn't gained enough levels for the level 20 monsters to really be minions. Presumably the wizard would need to be level 16 or more before that would happen? Fair enough, so here's my question for you:

At what level, lower than level 1, do you think the adventurers need to be so that a level 1 goblin cutter, for example, would not be a minion?

Since you've now learned "level 0" doesn't make any sense in 4e, your answer needs to be a positive integer lower than 1. I'll be impressed to see it.

QuoteWell, yes, you could have that set-up if your GM had no idea how to put encounters together.

Again, you don't understand the problem. It's so weird to have this conversation again, it was gone over in detail in late 2008, WoTC themselves acknowledged minions don't work, and there were many threads on how to 'fix' minions in the official forums.

QuoteKobold minions and cyclops minions wouldn't be fighting the same PCs because they're designed to go up against PCs of different level tiers. It'd be like saying the "in 2e, I could have 1 HD goblins in one room and a 15 HDred dragon in the next, therefore the mosters in that edition are broken".

Now you're confused, AND misquoting me. Let's try it more carefully, with precise examples. Consider a level 5 Warlock. One day, he  meets goblin warriors, and his Armor of Agathys barely scratched them. The next day, he meets orc warriors, and his Armor of Agathys slaughters them in droves, and they have no chance at all against him. As both these monsters are within 4 levels of the level 5 character, it's perfectly within the written guidelines.

So, yeah, "makes no sense" is a pretty good 3 word description, above and beyond the serious design flaws.

QuoteBesides, why would minions try to get close to the guy who's clearly killing them just by standing next to them? They'd hang back and used ranged attacks, or deal with other targets.

A classic response from someone unfamiliar with the game. It turns out, characters can move. So yeah, the minions can 'hang back', but this doesn't prevent the character from moving. I note you're also indicating here that you think maps are really large...very few published encounters are on maps much over 36 x 36, which is what would be necessary for your (assumed) archers to (assumed intelligently) hang back effectively for more than 2 rounds, (assuming, in violation of guidelines) that the players start on one edge, monsters on the other. In practice, of course, maps are much smaller, and the monsters start out much closer, and line of sight necessitates smaller distances in general. I'm guessing you've never played any modules or encounters, since otherwise you'd know this. Again, if you'd just play the game you'd stop arguing from theory like this, and see how in practice these concepts actually work.

QuoteUnlike every other monster who's being removed by bookkeeping actions? It's not like minions take different kinds of damage from other monsters. ANY damage being dealt to ANYTHING in ANY game is bookkeeping.

Again, your lack of familiarity with the rules exposes itself. Auto damage is a very different thing than "swing and hit" damage in terms of keeping track, and minion 'damage' is also very different than damage as it applies to other monsters (eg, many area effect damaging powers hurt "normal" monsters, always, but can quite conceivably do absolutely nothing to a minion, as one example among many...you'd know this stuff if you played). Others in this very thread have commented, you should read the other posts.

QuoteThat's assuming that a) the minions group into convenient groups to get fireballed, b) they don't use any type of strategy, and c) it would be impossible to miss a minion. Minions still have defenses appropriate to their level, so it's not like you can just cast the big boom and automatically clear the room.

Sigh. No, again. No. Double no, since Fireball is a stupid spell in 4e, and nobody uses it...you'd know if you played. Please, review the PHB, I think it would help you alot in formulating arguments that aren't so clueless. Honest, there are 'auto damage' effects that can hit minions in great quantity, and strategy doesn't even come into the picture.

Quote80 minions? How the hell does that work on the map? Were they all bunched up in "please nuke me" groups? If they were, of course they would be ineffective, they'd be in each other's ways and not be able to do anything strategic. Sounds more like GM failure to me, really.

Again, no, you're clueless, and, most amusingly, shameless about demonstrating it. While earlier you argued that maps are really big, now you're arguing that they're very small (a 10x10 map would be sufficient, after all). You're fascinating, really. Are your posts intended to be a practical joke?

In this case, I did use a big map, and trickle in 16 in at a time from 4 different directions, over the course of rounds....again, if you actually played the game, you'd be able to do more than just spew the pablum that was quite common when the game first came out. Actual players of the game (in the complement of your set) posted many suggestions, many of which appeared in later/more recent versions of minions.

Perhaps you should go play for a few months and then we can have this conversation on a more equal footing?

Quote from: Doom;436210I'll go over it more carefully. You said "at that level" the monsters would no longer be a threat as in, characters eventually gain levels so that "lower level" monsters turn into minions.

But "level 1 minions" contradicts this assertion. They're minions. At level 1. Character that are level 1 have gained no more levels, and yet, by your logic, have gained enough enough levels so that the monsters have turned into minions.

Where did I say they "gained levels" at level 1? You start at level 1, and at that level, minions are no longer threats.

QuoteBut you're also saying they didn't get levels. So you're saying the levels not gained are the ones that when gained make the monsters turn into minions when the adventurers gain the levels they could not have gained.

...what? I said nothing of the sort. Monsters don't suddenly "transform" into minions. They're minions. Period. It's not like they exist before they meet the PCs.

[/quote]
You're not making much sense here. I'm not supposed to pit, say, a level 20 minions against a level 1 wizard, since the wizard hasn't gained enough levels for the level 20 monsters to really be minions.[/quote]
Right.

QuotePresumably the wizard would need to be level 16 or more before that would happen?

Right. That's why monsters have levels.

QuoteFair enough, so here's my question for you:

At what level, lower than level 1, do you think the adventurers need to be so that a level 1 goblin cutter, for example, would not be a minion?

What the hell kind of question is that? A level 1 goblin cutter is a minion, balanced against level 1 characters. Who cares what happens with the combat abstractions before the campaign even starts? Abstraction, remember?

In other words, the answer is "Who fucking cares? It's irrelevant to what's going on in the game."

QuoteSince you've now learned "level 0" doesn't make any sense in 4e, your answer needs to be a positive integer lower than 1. I'll be impressed to see it.

No, because the question you're asking makes no sense. Why are you trying to do this scale-below-level-one thing? There's no level below one, so you're just...actually, I have no idea what you're trying to prove. Who cares how a goblin cutter compares to a level that doesn't exist? What would that accomplish?

[/quote]
Again, you don't understand the problem. It's so weird to have this conversation again, it was gone over in detail in late 2008, WoTC themselves acknowledged minions don't work, and there were many threads on how to 'fix' minions in the official forums.[/quote]
Link?

QuoteNow you're confused, AND misquoting me. Let's try it more carefully, with precise examples. Consider a level 5 Warlock. One day, he  meets goblin warriors, and his Armor of Agathys barely scratched them. The next day, he meets orc warriors, and his Armor of Agathys slaughters them in droves, and they have no chance at all against him. As both these monsters are within 4 levels of the level 5 character, it's perfectly within the written guidelines.

Not seeing the problem here. The goblins were trained in their specialties, the orcs are faceless mooks. 4e is not trying to establish some type of "rule are physics" setup, it's trying to create a "cinematic" reality.

QuoteA classic response from someone unfamiliar with the game. It turns out, characters can move. So yeah, the minions can 'hang back', but this doesn't prevent the character from moving. I note you're also indicating here that you think maps are really large...very few published encounters are on maps much over 36 x 36, which is what would be necessary for your (assumed) archers to (assumed intelligently) hang back effectively for more than 2 rounds, (assuming, in violation of guidelines) that the players start on one edge, monsters on the other. In practice, of course, maps are much smaller, and the monsters start out much closer, and line of sight necessitates smaller distances in general. I'm guessing you've never played any modules or encounters, since otherwise you'd know this. Again, if you'd just play the game you'd stop arguing from theory like this, and see how in practice these concepts actually work.

Again, your lack of familiarity with the rules exposes itself. Auto damage is a very different thing than "swing and hit" damage in terms of keeping track, and minion 'damage' is also very different than damage as it applies to other monsters (eg, a fireball hurts "normal" monsters, always, but can quite conceivably do absolutely nothing to a minion, as one example among many...you'd know this stuff if you played). Others in this very thread have commented, you should read the other posts.

No, I'm quite familiar with the rules, thank you very much. I think your problem is that you don't seem to approach the game in cinematic terms. So a minion isn't crisped by a fireball if it misses? So what?

Like, for the fireball example? The minions ducked and covered. See how simple that was?


[/quote]
Sigh. No, again. No. Double no, since Fireball is a stupid spell in 4e, and nobody uses it...you'd know if you played. Please, review the PHB, I think it would help you alot in formulating arguments that aren't so clueless. Honest, there are 'auto damage' effects that can hit minions in great quantity, and strategy doesn't even come into the picture.[/quote]
First of all, my fire mage disagrees with the fireball thing there.

QuoteAgain, no, you're clueless, and, most amusingly, shameless about demonstrating it. While earlier you argued that maps are really big, now you're arguing that they're very small (a 10x10 map would be sufficient, after all). You're fascinating, really. Are your posts intended to be a practical joke?

I was about to ask you the same question. Where did I say maps were big?

[/quote]
In this case, I did use a big map, and trickle in 16 in at a time from 4 different directions, over the course of rounds....again, if you actually played the game, you'd be able to do more than just spew the pablum that was quite common when the game first came out. Actual players of the game (in the complement of your set) posted many suggestions, many of which appeared in later/more recent versions of minions.[/quote]
Says the guy who's making the "minions make no sense" stance that's been around since 4e came out.

QuotePerhaps you should go play for a few months and then we can have this conversation on a more equal footing?

We are on equal footing.

Hey Fun Tyrant. Is your handle on ENWorld Professor Cirno?

My issue with minions is that they're only as tough as cracked lightbulbs because they're facing the PCs.

We're meant to assume that before the 4E party turned up at the dungeon those minion orcs were as mean as usual, fighting and bullying each other for status and chopping up human villagers in combat.  But once the characters arrive, those tough-as-nails orc warriors gain the durability of a toddler on chemotherapy.  It kicks verisimilitude in the balls.

Quote from: ggroy;436175Better yet.

A minion Orcus.

A minion Lolth.

:rolleyes:

Minion Lich and Minion Vampire were in the 4E Monster Manual IIRC, which is why I use them as examples.

Quote from: FunTyrant;436212...what? I said nothing of the sort. Monsters don't suddenly "transform" into minions. They're minions. Period. It's not like they exist before they meet the PCs.

Wow, now I strongly believe you're trolling.

QuoteWhat the hell kind of question is that? A level 1 goblin cutter is a minion, balanced against level 1 characters. Who cares what happens with the combat abstractions before the campaign even starts? Abstraction, remember?

In other words, the answer is "Who fucking cares? It's irrelevant to what's going on in the game."

Ok, so we're both in agreement they make no sense and are silly and ridiculous.

So, now we just need to you to understand they don't even work as written. Please go back and reread the posts, avoiding the temptation to say things that have been proven wrong.

QuoteNo, because the question you're asking makes no sense. Why are you trying to do this scale-below-level-one thing? There's no level below one, so you're just...actually, I have no idea what you're trying to prove. Who cares how a goblin cutter compares to a level that doesn't exist? What would that accomplish?

Simple question for you: Identify a positive integer below 1. This would be the level you're basing your argument, such as it laughably is, around.

QuoteLink?

WotC changed the minion rules in DMG2, from 4/level to 6/level. Note how they didn't even try the 'baby step' of 5, because at that point it was obvious that they were not working as a set of game rules. They also upped the damage dramatically. Not just a single point, but lots, because it was clear that minions did not work as a set of game rules. Later versions of minions had a variety of powers (like damage resistance, "tough minion", etc), because it was clear that when the game came out the minions did not work as a set of game rules.

A google search of "minions 4e" reveals 852,000 hits. A great number of those are people talking about how to fix the minion rules, on many levels. I'm hard pressed to find anyone who's played the game any length of time indicating the minion rules are satisfying as written.

QuoteNot seeing the problem here. The goblins were trained in their specialties, the orcs are faceless mooks. 4e is not trying to establish some type of "rule are physics" setup, it's trying to create a "cinematic" reality.

"Goblin warrior" (p137, MM1)), "orc warrior" (p203, MM1). If you played the game, you'd know I was referencing specific monsters by the names I specifically mentioned. There's no 'specialty', neither are described a 'faceless mooks', and you certainly can't tell from the names that the goblins are (LOL) 'specialized', while the orcs go to a special camp to get their hit points drained to 1.

I made no assertion of 'rule are physics'...but quite a number of people feel that a small flame is a small flame, a dagger is a dagger, an arrow is an arrow, and so forth, and the minion rules simply don't work for those people.

QuoteLike, for the fireball example? The minions ducked and covered. See how simple that was?

Why do the faceless mooks duck and cover, but the tougher, 'better' monsters not do so? We're already in agreement minions make no sense at all from a 'thinking' standpoint, so not sure why you're trying to hammer the point home.

QuoteFirst of all, my fire mage disagrees with the fireball thing there.

Your mage, assuming you've actually played 4e which is highly in doubt, is an idiot. Stinking Cloud persists, and can move around, allows for control of the battlefield, and does MUCH more damage when you factor in that it deals auto-damage every round, above and beyond the comparable damage it deals when first cast. Why didn't the other players at the table laugh at you when your (alleged) mage activated his daily Fireball power? I know, because you never have.

QuoteI was about to ask you the same question. Where did I say maps were big?

Back where you said the hypothetical archer minions could 'hang back' to fire arrows...simply not possible if you actually played the game, because then you'd know players move more than sufficiently to cover the maps in a turn or two.

QuoteSays the guy who's making the "minions make no sense" stance that's been around since 4e came out.

I didn't know you've been saying it that long, but I do agree with you. Trouble is, you keep saying alot of other stuff that's been around since 4e came out, and it's patently untrue.

Personally, I don't much care whether they make sense (it'd be nice, mind you)...the fact that the rules don't really work with them is a far more serious problem.

QuoteWe are on equal footing.

No; you've demonstrated time and again that you've barely played the game, at absolute best, and quite possibly have never actually played. You've been humiliated repeatedly with your ostentatious displays of ignorance of practical game play. Your theorycraft has been shredded consistently, and you are uniformly being pointed at and laughed.

At this point, you're either simply trolling, or posting as some sort of practical joke.

Quote from: Doom;436257Back where you said the hypothetical archer minions could 'hang back' to fire arrows...simply not possible if you actually played the game, because then you'd know players move more than sufficiently to cover the maps in a turn or two.

I tried this encounter scenario before.

At best, a group of ranged attack minions can try dogpiling all their attacks on one player character in the first round (such as dogpiling arrows onto a ranger or rogue, with less AC).  But as soon as the players put two and two together, they realize the dogpiling attacks are just from minions.  What ends up happening next is the wizard just sends an at-will "scorching burst" (or another ranged area attack power) at the minons, and kills most of them in one swoop.

I found it was better to just use a generic archer or spellcaster monster, instead of several minion versions.  They can get off numerous attacks before the players eventually kill them.