Quote from: thedungeondelver;436063Here's the thing - AD&D already had a "mook" mechanic years before.  Sub 1HD creatures (or it may be 1HD and under) are attacked a number of times equivalent to the attackers level.  8th level fighter v. 8 kobolds = 8 dead kobolds (generally).

The problem to me is that the status of the Sub-1HD creature is a bit too restrictive. It will encompass creatures like kobolds, but when the fighter starts to be like say... 3rd level, the kobold isn't a threat at all in any case (I'm speaking of ONE kobold now, not an entire tribe of them using bows and slings and stuff. I know). So in practice, at most AD&D tables I've played, the multiple attacks of the fighter are rarely useful, more like a funny detail (I remember a fighter at high level years and years ago in a demo game we played for the town that was killing hordes of kobolds with a scythe... yeah... it was really hilarious, really, but it wasn't really useful tactically, if you see what I mean).

My solution would be to give "Sub HD status" to other creatures that would then qualify for multiple attacks. So say to a 5th level fighters, stuff like orcs and gnolls might start to qualify. But it shouldn't be mathematically automatic either (at fighter HD-4 or whatnot, which I thought about, too), otherwise you'd just completely modify the feel of the game.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;436063Here's the thing - AD&D already had a "mook" mechanic years before.  Sub 1HD creatures (or it may be 1HD and under) are attacked a number of times equivalent to the attackers level.  8th level fighter v. 8 kobolds = 8 dead kobolds (generally).

Absolutely.  And it worked pretty well for letting the Fighter do the fighting.  Individual encounters should be along the lines of a dozen and a half kobolds/goblins with one Orc shaman or Gnoll leader driving them towards the party.  Two beholders with six Drow Priestesses and four Stone Giant bodyguards is fairly beyond 'gonzo' and well into 'silly' again.

The downside to the Monster Manuals was that somehow the idea was engendered that adventures should use as many of the creatures across as many different books as possible.  A party really should only run into a few beholders in a lifetime.  Perhaps a dragon or two ever.  90%+ of the time, a party should be running into more or less humanoid opponents.  Fantastic creatures like aboleths and displacer beasts are not hiding around every corner in every fly-speck thorp the characters stumble across.  I think that is where this idea has formed that Fighters need maneuvers and powers like everyone else; as I have mentioned numerous times before, they tried to fix a problem that was entirely created by a lack of understanding previous iterations.

QuoteExactamundo, and I'd like to see DMs take up the banner of no XP for slaying mooks.  And no commensurate adjustment for the XP received from slaying the boss monster to "make up for it".

Totally agree.  I would say the tedium of calculating the piddling XP for 20 goblins and taking the effort to record it would be deterrent enough, but I am well aware of players who like to eke out every last experience point possible.  

Quote from: Benoist;436086The problem to me is that the status of the Sub-1HD creature is a bit too restrictive. It will encompass creatures like kobolds, but when the fighter starts to be like say... 3rd level, the kobold isn't a threat at all in any case (I'm speaking of ONE kobold now, not an entire tribe of them using bows and slings and stuff. I know). So in practice, at most AD&D tables I've played, the multiple attacks of the fighter are rarely useful, more like a funny detail (I remember a fighter at high level years and years ago in a demo game we played for the town that was killing hordes of kobolds with a scythe... yeah... it was really hilarious, really, but it wasn't really useful tactically, if you see what I mean).

My solution would be to give "Sub HD status" to other creatures that would then qualify for multiple attacks. So say to a 5th level fighters, stuff like orcs and gnolls might start to qualify. But it shouldn't be mathematically automatic either (at fighter HD-4 or whatnot, which I thought about, too), otherwise you'd just completely modify the feel of the game.

I was trying to puzzle out some kind of algorithm or chart that would provide for this.  Something like 5th level Fighters get level attacks on 1hd or less, 10th level bumps it up to 2hd or less, 15th goes to 3hd, and 20th gives 4hd.  Just preliminary numbers, they need some tweaking; additionally, the damage output of a 15th level Fighter, which can be impressive, would hardly drop a 4hd creature, even assuming they hit all of them present.  That would have to be addressed, but it provides for a class and genre based boost to Fighters without mucking around in various 'kata' or 'powers' or what-have-you.  It wouldn't necessarily have to be an insta-kill for the Fighter, but they should be doing significant damage without having to rely on a Belt of Giant Strength and massive magic items.

Quote from: Reckall;435935My usual example is that in a party composed only by clerics (sent by their Church to find an holy artifact) the one played by Brian Blessed could very well be "The Tank" (or "The Bull") - for sure, they will not consider each others all "leaders". What does even it means?

I submit that in a party formed of clerics, the player wanting to create Brian Blessed (and it's always good to have someone at the table bellowing every line) could just as easily use the 4e mechanical rules for a "Paladin" without ever referring to himself as anything other than a humble cleric.

Quote from: StormBringer;436103Absolutely.  And it worked pretty well for letting the Fighter do the fighting.  Individual encounters should be along the lines of a dozen and a half kobolds/goblins with one Orc shaman or Gnoll leader driving them towards the party.  Two beholders with six Drow Priestesses and four Stone Giant bodyguards is fairly beyond 'gonzo' and well into 'silly' again.

The downside to the Monster Manuals was that somehow the idea was engendered that adventures should use as many of the creatures across as many different books as possible.  A party really should only run into a few beholders in a lifetime.  Perhaps a dragon or two ever.  90%+ of the time, a party should be running into more or less humanoid opponents.  Fantastic creatures like aboleths and displacer beasts are not hiding around every corner in every fly-speck thorp the characters stumble across.  I think that is where this idea has formed that Fighters need maneuvers and powers like everyone else; as I have mentioned numerous times before, they tried to fix a problem that was entirely created by a lack of understanding previous iterations.


Totally agree.  I would say the tedium of calculating the piddling XP for 20 goblins and taking the effort to record it would be deterrent enough, but I am well aware of players who like to eke out every last experience point possible.  


I was trying to puzzle out some kind of algorithm or chart that would provide for this.  Something like 5th level Fighters get level attacks on 1hd or less, 10th level bumps it up to 2hd or less, 15th goes to 3hd, and 20th gives 4hd.  Just preliminary numbers, they need some tweaking; additionally, the damage output of a 15th level Fighter, which can be impressive, would hardly drop a 4hd creature, even assuming they hit all of them present.  That would have to be addressed, but it provides for a class and genre based boost to Fighters without mucking around in various 'kata' or 'powers' or what-have-you.  It wouldn't necessarily have to be an insta-kill for the Fighter, but they should be doing significant damage without having to rely on a Belt of Giant Strength and massive magic items.

...or you could just make them 1 hp minions, thus saving a ton of math and unnecessary difficulty.

4e minions are stupid. That's all that needs to be said.

Quote from: 1989;4361424e minions are stupid. That's all that needs to be said.

My, what a well thought-out and persuasive argument! It must have taken you a long time to put that counter-argument together!

Quote from: FunTyrant;436115...or you could just make them 1 hp minions, thus saving a ton of math and unnecessary difficulty.

Yes, and all that requires is Olympic level mental gymnastics.  Plus, as previously mentioned, a 1hp Dragon is ridiculous.

Quote from: FunTyrant;436153My, what a well thought-out and persuasive argument! It must have taken you a long time to put that counter-argument together!

I presume it took a good deal longer than 'just use 1hp minions'.

Quote from: StormBringer;436156Yes, and all that requires is Olympic level mental gymnastics. Plus, as previously mentioned, a 1hp Dragon is ridiculous.

What mental gymnastics? They're mooks. Their whole purpose in the fight is to get in the PC's way and get mowed down. Like, well, pretty much every action movie ever made.

Is it really that hard to say some critters are just "Imperial Stormtrooper" style combatants?

I also don't remember there being 1-hp dragons, anyway. I might be misremembering though.

QuoteI presume it took a good deal longer than 'just use 1hp minions'.

Hey, at least I'm actually contributing to the conversation rather than just saying "you're stupid".

And besides, why on earth would you need to come up with some convoluted rules and mechanics to have what amounts to the same outcome as 1 hp minions? Why make things that complicated?

FunTyrant's varied responses illustrate the whole issue I have with minions.  Like many of 4e's rules, they are not there for any real reason other then to make an interesting or challenging encounter.  Now interesting and challenging encounters are good, however I would prefer them in a fashion not based in MMOG theory.  I've played many games where I walked through yard trash, to get to the "boss room" and there have to figure out the "strat" needed to defeat the encounter.  I can do that online whenever I want in a host of different MMOGs.

One encounter has real 18th level Wights, the room next door has 18th level Minion wights.  Why did it take 30 minutes to kill the other Wights and these dropped in one hit?  Because the Spectre was the guy it was supposed to take 30 minutes to kill.  No monster actually means anything, they are all just skins full of powers.  Mix and match to make an interest collection of abilities to present a tactical challenge.  A badass tactical game? Sure.  I prefer roleplaying in immersive worlds.

Quote from: 1989;4361424e minions are stupid. That's all that needs to be said.

No, it should be pointed out that when you have iconic badass monsters reduced to 1hp minions it is just plain ridiculous. Minion Vampire or Minion Lich anyone?

Quote from: FunTyrant;436161Hey, at least I'm actually contributing to the conversation rather than just saying "you're stupid".

This is theRPGSite. Sometimes the most appropriate thing to say is "you're stupid".

Quote from: jeff37923;436171No, it should be pointed out that when you have iconic badass monsters reduced to 1hp minions it is just plain ridiculous. Minion Vampire or Minion Lich anyone?

Better yet.

A minion Orcus.

A minion Lolth.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: FunTyrant;436067I'm wondering (and I'm not asking this to be rude, I'm actually curious), have you actually tried using 4e minions in a fight, or been in a 4e combat involving minions?

Many times, trying many things to make minions relevant. I'm guessing you haven't actually tried, which is why your counters are so obviously invalid to me and anyone else who has played.

Quote from: FunTyrant;436067Pretty much, yeah. Why is that so bad? I don't see how a 1 hp minion at first level in 4e would be much different than a 1 hp kobold at first level in earlier editions.

Because it completely contradicts what you just said was the reason for them. So, invalid response.

QuoteUh, there is no "level 0".  :confused:

Exactly! I'm betting you're a little suprised, too. Pretty much invalid.

QuoteBecause at that level the players are more capable, and are stronger. As the characters level up, everything scales up with them. A huge brute isn't as much of a problem anymore since the PCs have grown. Abstraction, remember?

But "Armor of Agathys" and "Armor of Agathys" look like the same thing to me. Also, you can meet the goblins in one room, and the 1hp cyclops in the next, and the characters might well have not leveled up between rooms. So, invalid, again.

QuoteAnd since one of the main purposes of minions is to get mowed down in a dramatic fashion, I'm still not seeing the problem.

Because they're not being mowed down, they've being removed as part of a bookkeeping actions. So, invalid. Again.

QuoteTwo minions are quite capable of flanking and tying up one PC. Three or four can slow PCs enough for the bigger monsters to do some serious damage.

Great in theory, and certainly for low levels. But in actually, no, this doesn't happen, and can't happen, as explained earlier due to the preponderance of area effect spells. So, invalid, again.

QuoteI'm wondering (and I'm not asking this to be rude, I'm actually curious), have you actually tried using 4e minions in a fight, or been in a 4e combat involving minions?

Many times, trying many things to make minions relevant. I finally gave up when I pitted 80 level 12 minions (grimlocks) as well as 5 'normal' monsters against a level 12 party (something like a level +16 encounter, if I recall correctly)....they were irrelevant and the party was hardly challenged (one player used one daily), there are too many book-keeping auto-damage effects at that level to make them work in an exciting way, even if they even made any sort of sense at all. I'm guessing you haven't actually tried, which is why your counters are so obviously invalid to me and anyone else who has played. Go and try using minions as you've mentioned here, against live human beings, preferably in a level 10 or so party, and you'll see how the theory you've presented is meaningless in practice.