Quote from: Peregrin;435939Yeah.  I was torn, as AD&D has a special sort of feel about it

Well there you go, OD&D and AD&D, my two favorite versions of the game right there.

Quote from: CRKrueger;435950Question Randall, did you ever run a Hill Giant adventure with Hill Giant minions who had only 1hp per die, or a demonic adventure with one Type-IV "Nalfeshnee Leader" and 12 "Nalfeshnee minions"?

Hill Giants, no. I've never had enough hill giants in one battle to need minions. Demons, yes, but not really like your example.  I've had parties traveling through the Abyss where most of the randoms demonic hordes were 1 hp per die minions. There's millions and millions of them after all.

Quote from: Reckall;435935The problem I have with this kind of 4E terminology ("leaders", "strikers" etc. included) is that it is the pinnacle of meta-gaming. The characters, both PCs and NPCs, are just that: fictional living beings. "Send Joe the Tank forward!" or "Let's mop the floor with these minions" should be things said by *the characters* not by the rulebook.

My usual example is that in a party composed only by clerics (sent by their Church to find an holy artifact) the one played by Brian Blessed could very well be "The Tank" (or "The Bull") - for sure, they will not consider each others all "leaders". What does even it means?

And I doubt that two orcs who *want* to survive will see themselves as "minions". Just play your characters and let their personalities and the dice decide who they are.

Here's the thing though...

Joe the Fighter and Bob the Fighter want to have different toys to play with, and more than just another hit die to look forward to at each level. Gamers have always loved having little customizable widgets for their characters...that's why splatbooks are so popular.

I don't think that it's a mistake to design classes to be good at specific things. I think that the idea behind roles in 4E was a sound one, even if it wasn't implemented as well as it could be. While this can bleed into metagame territory, but it doesn't necessarily have to if you accept that your cleric is probably going to be keen on healing and bolstering allies and the rogue is more apt to strike from the shadows. Also, as someone pointed out before, a Kobold or a goblin with 2hp is a minion in any edition of D&D, whether they have it under their name in the MM or not. There's no reason that any of them shouldn't want to survive whatever genocidal cavern cleansing the PC's are on. That's up to the guy in the viking hat.

Quote from: RandallS;435961Hill Giants, no. I've never had enough hill giants in one battle to need minions. Demons, yes, but not really like your example.  I've had parties traveling through the Abyss where most of the randoms demonic hordes were 1 hp per die minions. There's millions and millions of them after all.

Ok, because that's not the 4e version of minions at all.  Your version is Stone Giants having some stooge orc and ogres around.  The 4e version is having a couple full hp stone giants and a group of 1hp stone giants.

Quote from: CRKrueger;436012Ok, because that's not the 4e version of minions at all.  Your version is Stone Giants having some stooge orc and ogres around.  The 4e version is having a couple full hp stone giants and a group of 1hp stone giants.

I may have brought this up when Randall first posted his blog entry, but I was going to bring it up now had you not beaten me to the punch.    We are in complete agreement here.

I fully and whole-heartedly endorse goblins, orcs, kobolds, and even possibly hobgoblins having "1hp" en masse, especially if the players have reached fifth level, or possibly name level or some other marker like that.

But regardless of level, players really should not be hewing their way through dragon or demon shaped balloons on their way to Orcus' lair.  That isn't 'cinematic', it isn't 'epic', it ends up being just plain silly.

Quote from: StormBringer;436029I may have brought this up when Randall first posted his blog entry, but I was going to bring it up now had you not beaten me to the punch.    We are in complete agreement here.

I fully and whole-heartedly endorse goblins, orcs, kobolds, and even possibly hobgoblins having "1hp" en masse, especially if the players have reached fifth level, or possibly name level or some other marker like that.

But regardless of level, players really should not be hewing their way through dragon or demon shaped balloons on their way to Orcus' lair.  That isn't 'cinematic', it isn't 'epic', it ends up being just plain silly.

I agree with this as well.  The base concept for minions isn't bad (as chopping through hordes of weak enemies is a big staple of the fantasy genre), but 4e's implementation was weak and not thought out very well.

Nope, half die type minimum.  Sure there will be instant kills for characters with Strength bonuses but a Strength 8 Magic User shouldn't be insta killing anything bigger than a rat.

Mind you, I generally dislike Strength bonuses in D&D.  They really should shift up the die type.  No I didn't do that in Dark Passages, I was trying very, very, very hard to stick to D&D's core mechanics.

Quote from: CRKrueger;436012Ok, because that's not the 4e version of minions at all.  Your version is Stone Giants having some stooge orc and ogres around.  The 4e version is having a couple full hp stone giants and a group of 1hp stone giants.

I admit that I've only read the original 3 4e books and played in only 4 4e sessions, but I was under the impression that when to use minions was a decision for the GM to make. I don't remember anything about only being allowed a couple of non-minion monsters in a group.

Assuming my memory is correct on actual DM advice given, I suspect the high ratio of minions to monsters you see is simply an attempt to shorten 4e's very long and drawn out combats.

Quote from: CRKrueger;436012Ok, because that's not the 4e version of minions at all.  Your version is Stone Giants having some stooge orc and ogres around.  The 4e version is having a couple full hp stone giants and a group of 1hp stone giants.

Uh, you do realize that hit points are, and always have been, abstractions and not a hard representation of health, right? Just because something has 1 hp doesn't mean that it dies when it stubs their toes any more than a 1 hp wizard PC would die if he walked into a door. Hit points only mean anything in a fight, and being a minion means that this creature is there to be a faceless guy who gets killed by the hero as said hero works his way to the real threats.

The whole point of minions/mooks/Imperial Stormtroopers/whatever is that, at the level the PCs are at when they fight them they're not even a serious threat. They're there to fill in the scene, and can still be dangerous if there are enough of them or if the PCs ignore them.

As for the inevitable question "well, what happens when a level 1 PC fights a level 20 minion?", then then answer is "they don't, because they're not supposed to". To a level 1 character, a higher-level minion would be represented by a normal creature of that type.

Quote from: StormBringer;436029I may have brought this up when Randall first posted his blog entry, but I was going to bring it up now had you not beaten me to the punch.    We are in complete agreement here.

I fully and whole-heartedly endorse goblins, orcs, kobolds, and even possibly hobgoblins having "1hp" en masse, especially if the players have reached fifth level, or possibly name level or some other marker like that.

Here's the thing - AD&D already had a "mook" mechanic years before.  Sub 1HD creatures (or it may be 1HD and under) are attacked a number of times equivalent to the attackers level.  8th level fighter v. 8 kobolds = 8 dead kobolds (generally).

QuoteBut regardless of level, players really should not be hewing their way through dragon or demon shaped balloons on their way to Orcus' lair.  That isn't 'cinematic', it isn't 'epic', it ends up being just plain silly.

Exactamundo, and I'd like to see DMs take up the banner of no XP for slaying mooks.  And no commensurate adjustment for the XP received from slaying the boss monster to "make up for it".

Unfortunately, FunTyrant's argument breaks down on a few levels.

What do you do about level 1 minions? When the PCs are level 1, the level 1 minions are not a serious threat....so the monsters were never a serious threat? Do they gain more hp if the players go to level 0? That defeats the whole purpose of what an 'encounter' is.

Now crank it up to high level, and those 1 hp cyclopses. The same "armor of agathys" that scratches up goblins utterly destroys an infinite number of 10' tall hulking brutes. And why are such brutes "not a threat"? They can literally drop houses on you...that's threatening under most definitions of the word.

This is over and above the simple fact that minions can never work as intended, past a few levels. Once players hit level 5, nearly every class has 1 or more area or bust effects capable of taking out minions in quantity, and usually they are encounter powers to boot (so that the minions can never be useful even in a long workday). The only way minions can be more than completely irrelevant at this point is to increase their numbers hugely (i.e., the math doesn't work), and even then they're still just goofy.

Quote from: Doom;436065What do you do about level 1 minions? When the PCs are level 1, the level 1 minions are not a serious threat....so the monsters were never a serious threat?

QuotePretty much, yeah. Why is that so bad? I don't see how a 1 hp minion at first level in 4e would be much different than a 1 hp kobold at first level in earlier editions.

QuoteDo they gain more hp if the players go to level 0? That defeats the whole purpose of what an 'encounter' is.

Uh, there is no "level 0".  :confused:

QuoteNow crank it up to high level, and those 1 hp cyclopses. The same "armor of agathys" that scratches up goblins utterly destroys an infinite number of 10' tall hulking brutes. And why are such brutes "not a threat"? They can literally drop houses on you...that's threatening under most definitions of the word.

Because at that level the players are more capable, and are stronger. As the characters level up, everything scales up with them. A huge brute isn't as much of a problem anymore since the PCs have grown. Abstraction, remember?

QuoteThis is over and above the simple fact that minions can never work as intended, past a few levels. Once players hit level 5, nearly every class has 1 or more area or bust effects capable of taking out minions in quantity, and usually they are encounter powers to boot (so that the minions can never be useful even in a long workday).

And since one of the main purposes of minions is to get mowed down in a dramatic fashion, I'm still not seeing the problem.

QuoteThe only way minions can be more than completely irrelevant at this point is to increase their numbers hugely (i.e., the math doesn't work), and even then they're still just goofy.

Two minions are quite capable of flanking and tying up one PC. Three or four can slow PCs enough for the bigger monsters to do some serious damage.

I'm wondering (and I'm not asking this to be rude, I'm actually curious), have you actually tried using 4e minions in a fight, or been in a 4e combat involving minions?

Quote from: RandallS;436048I admit that I've only read the original 3 4e books and played in only 4 4e sessions, but I was under the impression that when to use minions was a decision for the GM to make. I don't remember anything about only being allowed a couple of non-minion monsters in a group.

The DM uses whatever he or she would like. Minions are an option, not a requirement. In fact, many of the fights in the Encounters programs don't use Minions at all.

Quote from: RandallS;436048Assuming my memory is correct on actual DM advice given, I suspect the high ratio of minions to monsters you see is simply an attempt to shorten 4e's very long and drawn out combats.

Have you thought about the logic (or lack thereof) behind that statement? Adding combatants and spreading out the damage the PCs are doing is supposed to shorten a fight?

Minions serve two purposes: They allow a DM to be a bit gonzo without going overboard and they provide something for Controllers (characters who do area attacks) to go nuts on.

Seanchai

Quote from: FunTyrant;436062The whole point of minions/mooks/Imperial Stormtroopers/whatever is that, at the level the PCs are at when they fight them they're not even a serious threat. They're there to fill in the scene, and can still be dangerous if there are enough of them or if the PCs ignore them.

Because even though they have one Hit Point, they still do damage, have abilities, etc..

Seanchai

Quote from: FunTyrant;436067I don't see how a 1 hp minion at first level in 4e would be much different than a 1 hp kobold at first level in earlier editions.

It's different - Minions are more effective because they can do more. For example, Kobolds and their damn Shifting. It's irritating and effective.

Quote from: FunTyrant;436067Two minions are quite capable of flanking and tying up one PC. Three or four can slow PCs enough for the bigger monsters to do some serious damage.

And if you're attacking Minions, you're not attacking non-Minions. As the latter tend to be more damaging, that's not exactly beneficial.

Quote from: FunTyrant;436067I'm wondering (and I'm not asking this to be rude, I'm actually curious), have you actually tried using 4e minions in a fight, or been in a 4e combat involving minions?

Actual knowledge of how 4e works is considered a detriment.

Seanchai