I really, really dislike 4e, I'm not launching into why...but I'd wager fans of 4e are saying "Okay, what are the monsters doing?"

IOW they're gaming.  Why aren't you, scion of 2e fandom?

Quote from: Benoist;434524Gamma World *is* awesome.

I have this recurring nightmare where I go on vacation in France and finally check out Mont St. Michael.  While there I unexpectedly run into Ben.  He points at me and lets out a hue and cry like Donald Sutherland at the end of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.  As I'm dragged down by the pod people I find myself cackling madly as I realize I am out of healing surges.

Yeah I know GW replaced healing surges with a big second wind, just making fun.

Quote from: CRKrueger;434653I have this recurring nightmare where I go on vacation in France and finally check out Mont St. Michael.  While there I unexpectedly run into Ben.  He points at me and lets out a hue and cry like Donald Sutherland at the end of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.  As I'm dragged down by the pod people I find myself cackling madly as I realize I am out of healing surges.

Yeah I know GW replaced healing surges with a big second wind, just making fun.

Since the Mt. Saint Michel is basically what the Black Abbey is based on (at least as far as the surface levels are concerned), and the Black Abbey is basically my megadungeon that exists across planes in different shapes and flavor, you can imagine the sort of awesome gonzo you'd be up against. Oh yeah... this megadungeon is the real deal. Make sure you roll a few characters in advance before sitting at the game table. EVEN if we're playing 4e with HUGE motherfucking surges.

Quote from: Daedalus;434647They aren't accomplishing anything.  They are bitter, ex-gamers who have nothing better to do then insult the games others enjoy.  

People Like 1989 and Jeff aren't gaming and they are bitter to hear that people like you and I are playing D&D 4e and are having fun.  They wish they were gaming and having fun and it burns thems they they cant be.

Perhaps their attitudes is exactly why they arent gaming.  If they act like they do on here, I can only imagine they are just as unbearable in person

Every time a 4venger says that I'm not gaming or that I'm a bitter ex-gamer, it makes me smile since obviously only bitter ex-gamers do not play 4E. :rolleyes:

You see dipshit, I'm not insulting the game, I'm insulting the gamer. There's a difference. If you'll notice, I don't give jgants or Benoist equal amounts of shit about playing 4E and having fun for example because they are not being wankers about playing 4E.

Methinks you doth protest too much.

Quote from: ggroy;434650I'm somewhat agnostic about the choice of game system, if the people playing are relatively pleasant to game with.  4E may not be my first choice of a system, but I'm willing to put that aside to play 4E with some groups of players.

I dont have a problem with people not liking 4e.  I just think that the people who insult 4e are just idiots.  You are not like that, you say why you dislike 4e and are ok with it.  

So just to be clear.  I dont hate the people who dislike it, I hate the haters who have nothing better to do then insult a game.  If you dont like it then dont play it and stay away from it.  That's my feelings on the subject

Quote from: ggroy;434650People come first.  Choice of game system is secondary.

While people come first, game system (at least for me) comes second and is very important.  I believe system matters.

Quote from: two_fishes;434669Methinks you doth protest too much.

Yep, I agree.  If you dont like a game dont play it and don't talk about it.  Instead of wasting time talking about a game you dislike talk about a game you like

Quote from: two_fishes;434669Methinks you doth protest too much.

Shut up AM, and quit hacking this account.

Quote from: Daedalus;434671Yep, I agree.  If you dont like a game dont play it and don't talk about it.  Instead of wasting time talking about a game you dislike talk about a game you like

Bolding mine.

If you do not like what I type, put me on ignore and that will solve your butthurt. Of course, this is an example of the 4venger BS that I am griping about.

And once again, I am bitching here about an annoying segment of the 4E Player base and not the game itself.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw[D&D 4.0 and Essentials] are indeed the exact same game. I think most people recognize this now. Most people who still game, that is.

Quote from: Benoist;434496That's not what I'm seeing on RPGnet, ENWorld, WotC's boards and Circus Maximus, to name a few.

Sure, you find some people who think like you do, that 4e and Essentials are the exact same game, but by and large, there are many, many people who do not think they are the same, and are still gaming, incidentally. Furthermore, from what I'm seeing, there are more people who actually like 4e that are peeved about Essentials than people who didn't like 4e to begin with on the message boards I read. Just my observation.

Unless you're saying you're like the last person on all these mentioned message boards that is actually truly gaming, or that people who do not think like you do are de facto non gamers, which honestly wouldn't make any sense.

* I've read that some 4.0'ers don't like Essentials in their games because the new feats introduce power creep and make some of the core feats obsolete. As in, crazily so.

* Others really don't like Essentials because it undermines the idea of uniform class progression (with respect to allocation of powers); the same crowd, consistently, rejects Player's Handbook 3, which predates Essentials and introduced the same departures from the PHB 1 design.
(I stared in disbelief when Rob Heinsoo, in a recent interview at Kobold Quarterly, said that this rejection was intended out of the gate with 4.0, but they simply didn't have the time to do it back then - so he's very happy with post PHB 2-developments. I side with ggroy, though, in terming pre-Essentials D&D "Heinsoo D&D", though that's for the reason just stated not called for.)

*The DDI fuck up is a different story, as the switch from off- to online-only had nothing to do with Essentials, but aggravated existing concerns.

Edit. And the one big, glaring thing Benoist is absolutely right about is, that Essentials simply failed to re-invigorate 4E. But laying that aside, how do you guys like the Monster Vault? Next to the tiles, that's about the only thing I'm thinking of buying.

I'm not sure 4e needed "reinvigorating". Essentials was shown to us at DDXP last year. It only started coming out on shelves in like.. September.

The problem is, I really do think it slowed things down and made everyone confused. (Do I go ahead and get Dark Sun? Or should I wait for the Essentials version?" Which of course there will never be an essentials version, since it is a freaking beginners supplement...)

I don't think there's "Power Creep" in Essentials really*. The Essentials thief and slayer and scout... do a ton of damage.. but ..they're kinda one-trick ponies. I concede that it is a bit like an earlier game- in that all they do is attack and do damage. But.. they're just additional character classes. It isn't like the way the game is played changed in any way.

There's power creep in Divine Power. Have you seen Blood of the Mighty?

I haven't picked up the Monster Vault yet. I plan on getting it eventually.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;434632It's not a burden at all, I really like D&D. It's really too bad we cant talk about it here.

Yeah there's no special safe room for you here and no mods to ban people for calling you on your bullshit.  Whatever will you do.

Frankly I suspect that 5e will suffer from horrible nerd rage from guys like you when, you know, it's actually a version of Dungeons & Dragons.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;434306So sales are an indication of the relative quality of a game?

Sales are not a measure of quality (neither is a flop for what matters). "Transformers" makes billions even if it is an embarassment for the human race. Lars von Trier puts out very good movies aimed at a very small slice of public.

The problem with 4E is that they got the public of Lars von Trier with the quality of "Transformers". I don't think you can dig deeper than that :rolleyes:

Quote from: Daedalus;434671Yep, I agree.  If you dont like a game dont play it and don't talk about it.  Instead of wasting time talking about a game you dislike talk about a game you like

I don't agree with this, even though I'm a fan of 4E.

I think it's a great game, even though it has a lot of flaws. Recognizing and discussing a game's various blemishes is the best way to brainstorm improvements. I don't know about you, but I haven't found a game yet that I didn't want to houserule in some manner or another.

Look at it this way, people here complain because the various powers of 4E can sound like a litany of numbers recited back and forth between players and DM's, which in turn lessens the immersion of players who enjoy the more narrative qualities of combat in TSR D&D. What if you could find a way to implement class powers in a way where the actual mechanics are largely behind the screen? I think that something like that would be worth discussing.

Quote from: David Johansen;434698Yeah there's no special safe room for you here and no mods to ban people for calling you on your bullshit.  Whatever will you do.

Frankly I suspect that 5e will suffer from horrible nerd rage from guys like you when, you know, it's actually a version of Dungeons & Dragons.

I would be very happy to have a version of D&D that was instantly recognizeable as such, but managed to escew all the crap that I hated about previous editions.