Rogues have always been my favorite class.  So when I converted to D&D 3rd edition (now 3.5) so long ago - I feel my favorite class got the short end of the stick.

I mean - every class has something special about it... wizards & sorcerers: duh.  Fighters: kickin' all that ass.  Everyone.

But all the rogue's abilities have been given up for everyone to have a little of.  My favorite archetype has been watered down.  I've read some of the posts about class balance from WotC... and don't buy it.  If you want some magical abilities - you take levels of Wizard.  If you want to be able to wear some armor and kick a lil butt ya take levels of Fighter.  But anyone who wants to sneak, pick locks, hide, etc. can just spend some of their skill points?  Not fair.

If D&D wanted to abandon some of the archetypes they should have done so by breaking them all down - not my precious Rogue.  :mad:

Anyone else feel this way?  Or am I just being a big baby?

Quote from: CleanCutRogueBut anyone who wants to sneak, pick locks, hide, etc. can just spend some of their skill points?  Not fair.

So?  In practice, it's generally easier to take a few levels of rogue.  Most of the thiefly skills are cross class for most classes.  Plus, most classes don't have the skill points to get more 1-2 thief skills beyond their needed skills.

But the rogue class is somewhat watered down.  Their thing has become lots of skill pts and access to most skills.  It's essentially an expert with sneak attack added on.

Most of the fighterish feats are open to everyone, the main limitation are those with with BAB prerequisites.  It's really only the spell casters who can't be duplicated without taking the class.

You're just being a big baby.  Sure, anyone can pick up a rogue skill or two, but if you aren't a rogue you might have noticed that skill points are a wee bit hard to come by.  Hell, I always gave everyone an extra 2 and people still made rogues.

The great thing now is how well rogues and warrior classes multi together.  Fighter/Rogue is by far my favorite 3e character type - between the skill points and the feats you have all kinds of cool shit to do.  Rogues are one of the best classes in the game.

Goddamn... there's more to rogues than skillpoints and sneak attacks.

Uncanny Dodge, Evasion (and Improved), Crippling strike, Skill Mastery (ONLY high level rogues have the option to pick a bunch of skills and be able to take 10 whenever THEY want)...

Rogues are quite cool.

And there's a few options out there that make a rogue truly shine, such as Staggering Strike. I'm currently building an Invisible Blade, and will take Staggering Strike as soon as I can. My Dm will despise me.

If you're pissed at undead and constructs, you can always take a level of Sorceror and a level of Favored Soul. With the proper swift casting 1st level spells, you'll be able to sneak even these.

Why not post the conversion?

Rogue's in 3.0 or 3.5 kick all kinds of ass they are one of the better classes from start to finish.  Mix in a couple levels of fighter along the way for a little added beef and they are amazing.  Their feats and skill compliment each other perfectly and just keep racking up that Use Magical Device and Rogues are truly kick ass.

Okay okay... maybe I'm being a big baby.  But I haven't made a Rogue in third edition that didn't take a few levels of Fighter for the "added Beef".  I guess my largest complaint is the general breakdown of the classic archetypes.  Other than magic being reserved for wizard spells - anyone can get a little bit of one another's abilities... or a lot of one another's abilities with the ease of multiclassing.  I was a little pissed when our group's wizard (who has such a high Intelligence bonus that she gets plenty of skill points) was able to move silently better than me...

If I could, I would BURN the archetypes to the ground and never let them be rebuilt again!

But after 20 years of playing D&D, there's not much more I can do with any of 'em.  

Quote from: CleanCutRogueI was a little pissed when our group's wizard (who has such a high Intelligence bonus that she gets plenty of skill points) was able to move silently better than me...

Serious how?

First off unless he took Rogue levels his skill cap would be half yours. The wizard also has better Dex than your Rogue? Even with one level of Rogue to get rid of the skill cap, the wizard is paying double for Move Silently.

Cuz I have a rogue with a 15 dexterity and crappy Intelligence score, and I multiclass equally with a Fighter.  The Wizard has an amazing INT and DEX (lucky dice rolling) and is concentrating on stealth (with feats and gear, etc).  At lower levels, the Wiz was better.  Of course as time progressed I became better at it - but no amout of skill points I spend will get me a spell, while he can dabble like mad in what I do.  That's my point.

Quote from: CleanCutRogueI guess my largest complaint is the general breakdown of the classic archetypes.  Other than magic being reserved for wizard spells - anyone can get a little bit of one another's abilities... or a lot of one another's abilities with the ease of multiclassing.

This is a good thing.  Many (possibly most) interesting characters are more complex than one of a dozen archetypes.  In AD&D, it was hard to model.  Only demihumans could multiclass and they had to stay even, not mostly A but a little bit of B.  And the rules for humans (dual class? memory fading) were too clunky to generally bother with.  You could tell there was a problem when half of the characters published in Dragon were not possible to create if you followed the rules.

Rogues don't have to take Fighter levels, but they do well with a bit of multiclassing.  Try taking one level of  wizard or another  spellcasting class.

Oh... YOU  have a crappy rogue.

Well, you could always charge heroically at the next strong foe, die, and roll another one.

So your a fighter/rogue not even a rogue, and you are wondering why you are doing poorly when half your levels you've only been getting 2 skill points and having to pay double to improve you rogue skills. Is that 15 your best attribute? Or could it be because you are part figther your best attribute went elsewhere?

If the wizard has been getting feats like Stealthy and Skill Focus plus dumping skill points at 2 for one into Move Silently, he deserves to be pretty good at it.

If you've be spending half your levels on Fighter, and not favouring that skill with Feats you deserve to be pretty poor at it for a Rogue.

Also if you wanted spell casting nothing stopping you taking a level or so of Sorcerer.

Quote from: CleanCutRogueno amout of skill points I spend will get me a spell, while he can dabble like mad in what I do.  That's my point.

In Complete Arcane, there are a bunch of feats that give you minor spellcasting ability.

Quote from: DackeIn Complete Arcane, there are a bunch of feats that give you minor spellcasting ability.

Yeah, but they're SO minor I wouldn't bother with 'em, myself.  Not really worth a feat.