FFG makes wicked awesome boardgames.  That's what this is in fact, and that's how I'll take it.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320691Right now the closest we have to a value for money RPG is Tunnels & Trolls 7.5 which I have never even SEEN in a game store.  I had to preorder the damn thing from the publisher. It was 35 bucks for a complete game with tons of handy spiral bound books and counters in it.

I bought mine at  Bosco's Comics and Games, 2606 Spenard Road, Anchorage, AK... in person. As of two weeks ago, they had another copy on the shelf. Hobbycraft also has had it on the shelves in their Dimond Center location.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320691The only way to grow gaming is to get NEW people.

And that's the one problem with T&T 7.x... Ken doesn't feel it can be an introductory ruleset.

(well, that, and not having Liz Danforth's editorial touches...)

8.0 is likely to be a little bit more newb-friendly (IE, better explained)...

Quote from: RPGPundit;320687This game is meant to sell to EXISTING GAMERS and to Warhammer Fantasy Battle fans who are not RPG gamers. That's the only possible penetration it will have. And I think that it will STILL fail to draw the latter demographic in.

RPGPundit

Hell, as far as I can tell, this game isn't even meant to sell to current WHFRP players.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320691Most boardgames have rather simple rules too.

Well, perhaps.  But FFG games tend not to, for example.

I've recently played A Game of Thrones and Arkham Horror, neither I would call exactly simple.  None would pass your rpg page count tests.  Similarly, 1960 was far from simple.

And that's not getting into the older games I've played like the (admittedly famously complex) Republic of Rome or Kremlin.

I think boardgame simplicity gets overstated.  Most rulesets I have go to about 30 to 40 pages of rules.  Now, that's still a fraction of rpgs, and much of it is examples, so I agree with the essence of your point, but I wouldn't go as far as simple.  It's just that rpgs are hideously complex.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320691Plus most RPG core books are like 40-50 bucks now.  For that price most boardgames can be purchased with neat toys in the box and MUCH less reading.  You get percieved VALUE for your money.  In an RPG you get an expensive coffee table book that usually isn't even convenient for in play use.

You get boardgames way cheaper than I do.  I tend to pay 1.5 to 2 times the price of an rpg for most boardgames.

I do get better value for that spend though.  A fully playable game, rather than a fat book with often doubtfully tested rules.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320691More fast and fun games like D6 Star Wars or Ghostbusters.  Here is an RPG challenge.  Every ESSENTIAL and NEEDED rule for an RPG should be summarizable on a single sheet of paper.  If a player can read this one page and be ready to make their first character and then get into the game, its enough rules.

The GM?  At best, a 48 page booklet which should include everything they need to get going.  And maybe a 12-16 page introductory scenario for teaching them how to run a game.

How many rpgs in history pass that challenge?  Very few I think.

I agree with you that many current games are way too complex, but that's driven by market pressures.  A simple game is hard to pad in such a way you can charge forty bucks for it after all.  But one page?  That's pretty tight, too tight I think.  I would have two to four closer to the mark, and even then I'd note most games fail by a mile.

Great post though, I disagree with you on some details, but not on the essential point.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;320711Hell, as far as I can tell, this game isn't even meant to sell to current WHFRP players.

Correct.

and it's wuffrup. :cool:

Q: If a company want's to make a game for non-gamers they need to:

A. Listen to people who waste hours of their lives on RPG forums masturbating over some stupid fucking game or another.

B. Listen to some twat who gets off on being a "big-man" in our shitty little corner of the ass-hole of the entertainment market.

C. Listen to a bunch of fat-beards, cat-piss men, lawn crappers, spending thousands of dollars and hours upon hours of their time going to Indianapolis.*

What do you think?

Fuck guys, we've established that WE are the fucking problem.

WE are the ass-holes demanding games that are doomed to bore everyone else to fucking tears.

If I were actually trying to make a game to appeal to normal people the last fucking thing I'd do is listen to us.

If you want a game that people are going to like you're going to have to get out of the fucking way OR be content with your hobby and forget it ever being popular again.


*Not everyone who goes to gen-con falls into the above categories but it only takes a handful to out-smell and out-shout and out-loser everyone else.

So Piestrio, who do you think is capable of creating this mythical RPG?

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;320724So Piestrio, who do you think is capable of creating this mythical RPG?

Hell if I know.

I'm part of the problem remember?

Quote from: Piestrio;320725Hell if I know.

I'm part of the problem remember?

We're doomed!

My argument boils down to this:

When RPGs began to tank in the 80's TSR decided to market more and more toward their most dedicated (and highest spending) fans. This locked TSR catering more and more to a smaller and smaller group of people with tastes antithetical to the mass-market.

We are the descendants of that "core" spendthrift market. We are bred and raised on games that most people just plain don't fucking have any interest in. A truly popular mass-market game would probably not sell well or be well liked in the "hobby".

It would be different. We know what we want sure, and if you want to sell to us you should pay attention to us.

But if you don't want to sell to us, the best we will do is poison your game.

Quote from: Piestrio;320721Q: If a company want's to make a game for non-gamers they need to:

A. Listen to people who waste hours of their lives on RPG forums masturbating over some stupid fucking game or another.

B. Listen to some twat who gets off on being a "big-man" in our shitty little corner of the ass-hole of the entertainment market.

C. Listen to a bunch of fat-beards, cat-piss men, lawn crappers, spending thousands of dollars and hours upon hours of their time going to Indianapolis.*

What do you think?

I think we need a D.

You're right, of course.

Quote from: Fifth Element;320741I think we need a D.

You wouldn't know it listening to this crowd.

Company: "How can we stop pandering to "Gamers" and sell our game to more people?"

Gamers: "I know! You could try pandering to us some more!"

So, Piestrio, have you stopped beating your wife? Just curious. :wizard:

Quote from: RPGPundit;320688And the day someone makes an RPG (even just a half-decent one will do) in a boardgame box that sells for $20-40 in regular stores (NOT Comic stores or FLGSes), it will be a spectacular success, like Basic D&D was.

What makes you believe this is true for 2010?

QuoteIf you want a game that people are going to like you're going to have to get out of the fucking way OR be content with your hobby and forget it ever being popular again.

Let me take a wild stab in the dark and guess you're a 4e fan.

I'm sadly a little too familiar with that line at this point.  The irony of it is, it's generally being shouted by people every bit as irrelevant as they claim their opponents are.  Not to mention the usual "less geeky than thou" undertones, particularly popular on RPGnet.  

The general extremism of your posts are just as readily obvious.  You crow a lot about the dangers of hardcoreism, and it's a fair point, but you conveniently ignore the dangers of abandoning the core market entirely.  Not to mention the excluded middle approach of balancing the two to ensure everyone gets to have fun.  No, instead it's just typical technologism and faux populism aimed at a non-existent populace.  

You're boring.  If you don't have anything new to offer than last years 4e talking points and geek hate, save your fucking breath.  

0/10.