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What would you recommend of tactical and narrative combat?

I`m new to pen and paper roleplaying and picked up WFRP 2e.
Any tips on how to execute combat without innterrupting the flow of the game? Seems a bit stupid to tell my PCs to sit back and wait for 15 minutes while I set up a "chess board" with figures for them to play out combat.
Any other tips on executing combat and creating a live atmosphere around it would be much appreciated.

Almost all RPGs have that disconnect between the Talking part and the Gaming part.   It's not new to our hobby, but it gets more pronounced with the introduction of maps and minis.  I first encountered the "full stop" to the game with Champions and The Fantasy Trip in the early 1980s.

How much this "interrupts" the game really depends on your players.   Many players love the miniatures skirmish wargame aspect of RPG battles.  Many players love the switch to the boardgame aspects of the rules - its why D&D 3e was such a hit.   For many players, they play RPGs to experience their hero doing kewl stuff on the board.

I personally prefer WFRP 1e, but you can run 2e easily without minis or just use minis for "relative distance" which is a good compromise.   In gaming parlance, its called "hand waving" and you just eyeball distances and give the players the benefit of the doubt in regards to any rules that require exact placement.

Of course, you are running Warhammer so that's an unusual case with fans.  Since Warhammer is famous for its miniatures, many fans are drawn to the RPG with the expectation of playing with those figures.   That's not an issue when dealing with fans of an RPG without any established miniatures line.

Most importantly, TALK to your players.  

Even back in the 1970s, it was common for the Dungeon Master to announce "3 Trolls charge into the room" which caused the game to stop, the room get drawn out on the graph paper, everyone then placed their minis and then the game resumed.

However, this wasn't always the case even in 1978.  For many groups, they never bothered with the map or the minis.  They talked and diced it completely, perhaps with the occassional quick sketch just in case anyone was confused about the setup of the scene.

Quote from: jirisan;440833What would you recommend of tactical and narrative combat?

I`m new to pen and paper roleplaying and picked up WFRP 2e.
Any tips on how to execute combat without innterrupting the flow of the game? Seems a bit stupid to tell my PCs to sit back and wait for 15 minutes while I set up a "chess board" with figures for them to play out combat.
Any other tips on executing combat and creating a live atmosphere around it would be much appreciated.

Battlemat + requisite markers + a handful of minis to start with (DDMs, chess pieces, dice with the number facing = to the players starting on your left and going counter clockwise, whatever).  It won't take you 20 minutes to set up a combat scene like that, more like 30 seconds.  Less if you have the mat already unrolled.  They're pretty resilient so you won't have to worry about spills, etc. (unless your scenery is predrawn).

We use miniatures in our (not WFRP) battles when things start to get complex... over a wide area, lots of combatants. There's always a battlemat on the table in case that becomes necessary... but we're not going for precision... we don't use rulers or get picky about the coverage of AOE spells/weapons... it's still primarily narrative.
If I were doing a straight up dungeon-type adventure I might get a lot more elaborate with it... or maybe not.

If you're good at drafting or freehand drawing, you can use a whiteboard and markers, and then coins or thread spools for characters.

One thing we often do is that the DM describes the scene to the guy who did engineering in university and therefore knows drafting. While he draws up the scene, someone else grabs all the minis we'll need, and someone else draws up a list of initiatives. Once the drawing's done, the DM adds any changes he wants, and determines the starting positions of everyone. It works surprisingly well, and everyone's doing something, so set-up goes quickly and no one's sitting around doing nothing while it happens.

I prefer tactical combat, but I do not mean "chessboard square counting" by it. That's not tactics, that's playing a mini-game of rules bullshit within the game. Tactical management can happen in character, as you choose how you are confronting your enemies, choose the highground to throw that bucket of oil in the middle of the pack of orcs, use the doors to leverage exit points from a location, create a bottleneck with a set of crates to confront your enemies one by one, etc. All this stuff is actual tactics, and it has nothing to do with square-counting metagame bullshit.

To encourage this sort of game play, you need to leave choices open to the players, provide them with interesting combat situations, combat set up, terrain elements, tools and people to use against each other, etc etc.

You need to be ready for anything, and answer in kind.

Keep the game engaging, encourage people to describe what they do, describe cool results to their actions, do the same for NPCs, and let the ball roll from there.

Try The Pool (http://web.archive.org/web/20041012080435/www.randomordercreations.com/thepool.html).

Don't get out minis or a battlemat/grid at all. Don't even draw up stuff behind the screen. Have a rough idea of what's happening, winge the rest. You, the GM, and the players need to be comfortable though with you winging it. Winging it means that lots of rules get glossed over (nearly all of timing and positioning), and that you've gotta make the calls by yourself. Your players need to trust you (especially if there are PC casualties, which there inevitably will) and you need to trust your own capacity.

It works wonders when it does, and works regardless of which game system you use.

The Laptop is your friend.

Draw your Dungeon out on a spread sheet and use letters to represent minis.

So much quicker.

Quote from: Windjammer;440935Don't get out minis or a battlemat/grid at all. Don't even draw up stuff behind the screen. Have a rough idea of what's happening, winge the rest. You, the GM, and the players need to be comfortable though with you winging it. Winging it means that lots of rules get glossed over (nearly all of timing and positioning), and that you've gotta make the calls by yourself. Your players need to trust you (especially if there are PC casualties, which there inevitably will) and you need to trust your own capacity.

It works wonders when it does, and works regardless of which game system you use.

+1

the most we ever used was a piece of scratch paper and a quick sketch of any notable objects/obstacles.  learning to wing stuff is the most important skill of any ref, IMO.  after all, a ref's plan + players' actions almost always = not what the ref thought of :jaw-dropping:

I've never used minis in WFRP. The important thing is to keep a general mental track of where people are in the action.  I mean, obviously you can use minis, but I don't think its particularly necessary in that game.

RPGPundit

I should note that I have no idea if the above holds true in the grotesquerie that is the alleged "3rd edition" WFRP game.

RPGpundit

I must be some kind of weirdo because I think WHFRP goes hand-in-hand with minis like politics and corruption.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;441000I must be some kind of weirdo because I think WHFRP goes hand-in-hand with minis like politics and corruption.

I think the same way, but I also started playing Games Workshop stuff with the likes of Blood Bowl and Space Hulk.

Thanks for good advice, and thanks for the pool. I`ll try the pool out this weekend and give you some feedback.

When it comes to combat in WFRP I`ll try a combination of narrative and minis. None of the PCs are warhammer miniature fans/experienced. I`ll print out maps over combat areas when they are presented in the scenario (town square in "through the drakwald" campaign), and make simple drawings of terrain layouts when a map is not already included. I`ll use an approximate yard/inch to measure distance (not using a tape measure, rather go for eye-measure), not a square grid (thats too much board game for us I think).

It sounds best to use coins n other small items to represent heroes and monsters. I have plenty of plastic figures from Descent - journeys in the dark boardgame. But Im afraid too detailed figures will ruin the imaginative part of play.

So again, thanks for all the advice, and I hope to contribute more in the forum once Ive got some experience.

Quote from: Windjammer;440935Don't get out minis or a battlemat/grid at all. Don't even draw up stuff behind the screen. Have a rough idea of what's happening, winge the rest. You, the GM, and the players need to be comfortable though with you winging it. Winging it means that lots of rules get glossed over (nearly all of timing and positioning), and that you've gotta make the calls by yourself. Your players need to trust you (especially if there are PC casualties, which there inevitably will) and you need to trust your own capacity.

It works wonders when it does, and works regardless of which game system you use.

This. No minis, no grids.

At most, we'll have a simple sketch of the layout, if the layout is complex enough. But the sketch has to be completed extremely quickly, and even it comes out only if the players appear to be having problems visualizing the layout.

But minor details really don't matter. There's no reason to make sure everyone is picturing the cashbox on the same end of the bar, or whatever. It doesn't even really matter that you mention it's there. It's a bar, people probably know what those look like, and if a PC has an idea that requires a cashbox nearby, just say yes when they ask if there is one.

Quote from: RPGPundit;440994I should note that I have no idea if the above holds true in the grotesquerie that is the alleged "3rd edition" WFRP game.

RPGpundit

3rd edition supports minis if you want or works equally well just narratively describing the scene.

But even when using mini's the general method is to just use them as place holders and as a rough interpretation of keeping track of what's going on.

So in a typical encounter where the combat is spread out and with multiple things going on, more so then I can easily just sketch out on paper.  I'll grab a handful of stand-ups.  And basically just drop them around the 'area'.  So there's a group of beastmen over here.  They are long range from this group over here.  There's a building in the middle, the forest fringe is here and you guys are here - about long range from either group.

That's actually a fairly simple setup that you could do narratively but you get the point.  No tactical battle maps.  No range rulers, no counting off squares of movement.  Just sweet simple counters to ground the narrative a bit.  Then you just start calling out what your doing knowing it'll take you one round to get to position x.  There's no debate on only moving 5 squares instead of 6 because of some ranged attack or because you know your opponent can move 7 and catch you off guard.

No basically if you are in long range - your opponent is in long range and it takes you the same time as it does your opponent to close the gap.  The question then is do you want to close it quicker and fatigue yourself or march forward and risk being peppered with arrows.

Because I'm already on the pedestal after playing WFRP 3 for over a year now it's a much better experience then both previous editions of WFRP in every way.  Which isn't to say that I don't have fun with the past game.  But the times I've been playing them or Dark Heresy I can't help but constantly find myself thinking - how much more I'd rather being playing WFRP 3 rules.

Quote from: jeff37923;441003I think the same way, but I also started playing Games Workshop stuff with the likes of Blood Bowl and Space Hulk.

Yeah I just can't get my head around the "no minis" thing - in, of all places, Warhammer FRP.

Quote from: jirisan;441011Thanks for good advice, and thanks for the pool. I`ll try the pool out this weekend and give you some feedback.

When it comes to combat in WFRP I`ll try a combination of narrative and minis. None of the PCs are warhammer miniature fans/experienced. I`ll print out maps over combat areas when they are presented in the scenario (town square in "through the drakwald" campaign), and make simple drawings of terrain layouts when a map is not already included. I`ll use an approximate yard/inch to measure distance (not using a tape measure, rather go for eye-measure), not a square grid (thats too much board game for us I think).

It sounds best to use coins n other small items to represent heroes and monsters. I have plenty of plastic figures from Descent - journeys in the dark boardgame. But Im afraid too detailed figures will ruin the imaginative part of play.

So again, thanks for all the advice, and I hope to contribute more in the forum once Ive got some experience.

I bought a big plastic bag full of 6-sided dice in varying sizes and colors at my local gameshop for less than $20. This really works well for positioning markers, etc. Yours might have something like this.

is a must for all newbie roleplayers out there. I finally got to try it out. it works great. nice way of introducing people to roleplaying without too many rules too worry about.

Quote from: jirisan;441011It sounds best to use coins n other small items to represent heroes and monsters. I have plenty of plastic figures from Descent - journeys in the dark boardgame. But Im afraid too detailed figures will ruin the imaginative part of play.

Tokens vs. Minis is six versus half dozen.   The Descent minis are pretty cool and translate nicely to Warhammer.   If you are going to use some physical representations, I think you gain more from minis than coins and brickabrak.

The big advantage of the Descent minis is knowing which one is You and which one is The Monster so you avoid "Is the Cheeto the Troll?  No, the crunched up tissue is the Troll.  The Cheeto is the Chaos Warrior. Oh crap, I meant from my Trollslayer to attack the tissue."

Quote from: thedungeondelver;441000I must be some kind of weirdo because I think WHFRP goes hand-in-hand with minis like politics and corruption.

I wouldn't say "you're doing it wrong" or something; minis in this case can add to the detail of combat, and perhaps in that way to the action and the grittiness.  But I think that WFRP combat, even minis combat, is best done "fast and loose".  Often, the moment you put minis on the table, you're pulling out rulers or counting squares, and the whole flavour gets killed in the process.

RPGPundit

I agree with you RPGPundit, I tend to play my WFRP combat "fast and loose"

my powergamer player sometimes has issues with this but a bit of heavy dice rolling and he is happy.

used miniatures with 1e but for 2e just draw on my maps and describe the scene

Quote from: RPGPundit;442627even minis combat, is best done "fast and loose".  Often, the moment you put minis on the table, you're pulling out rulers or counting squares, and the whole flavour gets killed in the process.

That mirrors my experience.

When there were miniature demos and tournaments in the game store I was wondering what exactly it might be that drove all those customers to the diorama boards. It couldn't be the diorama/minis themselves because more than half of them played with unpainted minis.

I was looking at all those Confrontation skirmishes, thinking "I've had better, more fluid, more exciting combats in more involved scenery in my AD&D and Midgard campaigns"...

I like miniatures skirmish games like Confrontation quite a lot... but that's definitely something different from what I want in RPG combat.  
Sometimes I think a lot of RPG players would be happier with skirmish wargames though.

I like using minis to give more of an overall view of what's happening.  It cuts down on a lot of questions involving distance, time, cover, who's standing where when X happens, prevents the "I'm always in the center of whatever's happening, except when it's a grenade" syndrome and basically helps make sure that the little movie playing in everyone's head is roughly the same.  As far as counting squares, etc... goes, we don't usually play to that detail unless we are playing a game that has rules to along with that level of tactical detail.

For WFRP 1 and 2 we used minis, but for basic purposes, a lot of the old WFRP stuff came with such cool area maps, it would have been too hard not to use them as actual battlemaps.  :D