Twilight:2000, The Morrow Project, Recon!, Aftermath all spring to mind.
Quasi-military games that are fantasy-in-military-clothing like the various mecha games do too.
I love me some Twilight:2000. The Morrow Project seems interesting (and indeed there's no reason you can't blend the worlds of Twilight:2000 and TMP).
However I wonder if there's a place for them any more.
T2k was as successful as it was because the immediacy of the game seemed ripped from next week's headlines : Nuclear war with the USSR in Central Europe. As the 80s wore on and we found out the USSR was a paper tiger (although thanks to their wildly successful espionage, a conventional war in Europe would have been pretty much up for grabs), and then Gorbachev brought Perestroika and Glasnost and so on, and US military concerns shifted far southeast, the folks at GDW tried to keep the timeline "current" (and the game got worse for it, and less interesting as well).
However now that it's been almost 25 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall, the game's over-plot looks positively inviting with its retro-ness. But again, I wonder if there's any real appeal to it any more. I certainly love it and I'd jump at the chance to play some T2k (or Morrow Project, etc.) - but just those. I was never a huge fan of Gamma World nor "suddenly: radioactive mutants!" type apocalypse-fantasy games.
To be sure, I'm not a fan of misery tourism in general; the thing I like about T2k is that if you look closely enough and GM it properly there is a silver lining and there is hope for the future (the various modules linked in "The Last Sub" series involve rescuing environmental scientists who can at the very least help mitigate some of the long term damage to the earth, for example; there are other things, too, like "Satellite Down" which involves pursuing data tapes from the last functional weather satellite which crashed in Baja, Mexico, after the war and using that data to help the US forecast rain and drought cycles and relocate people and plant crops accordingly).
Unless you happen to come from a state with a tradition of military enlistment, the average American is more divorced from the military experience then ever before. The lack of a draft and actual declared wars means you don't have a case where everyone knows someone who might die tomorrow in a foreign land.
This disconnect from the military life is one of the reasons I think there is a lack of modern military RPGs, the other is that when you get pissed and want to set the world to rights by lighting someone up with a M249 SAW, you play a videogame, you don't roll dice.
Quote from: CRKrueger;564738. . . the other is that when you get pissed and want to set the world to rights by lighting someone up with a M249 SAW, you play a videogame, you don't roll dice.
yeah, i think that's the case, the FPS has replaced it. if anyone wants to do the mil-rpg thing, there already are plenty out there, in varying degrees of crunch. there just isn't the demand or need for a new product in that genre.
Gosh, I sure hope not. I'm currently working on Bleeding Sky, a modern/post apoc game ;)
Granted, it's designed to be played at varying tech levels. The whole thing is post-apocalyptic, but depending on where you are in the world, you could have a western-themed game, a modern military game, or even a near future game.
*Edit* alright, photobucket is being a dick. I'll have to sort it out when I get home.
I would have argued that having two actual active theaters (read:warzones) with troops in them may have dampened the spirits of game designers for their war porn games.
That and they are competing with Call of Duty and Modern Warfare for fans... hard sell.
Quote from: Spike;564748I would have argued that having two actual active theaters (read:warzones) with troops in them may have dampened the spirits of game designers for their war porn games.
That and they are competing with Call of Duty and Modern Warfare for fans... hard sell.
That might have some merit, but I wonder how much. That's like saying that people aren't playing fantasy rpgs because they could just play Skyrim. I HATE CoD and similar games, but I like to play all kinds of genres in rpgs. So I think they are completely different mediums.
Actually: I was thinking out the popularity of CoD and MW disproves that war porn demands drop off during times of actual conflict....
I'm sure an interesting sociological (anthropological?) analysis of the different subcultures cross referenced with the sales figures from Cod vs Skyrim could be interesting... but I actually, honest to dog, have a headache and can't be bothered to think of how to approach it, or why.
Well considering I alone have designed and published 6 military RPGs in the last decade, and have another coming out this week, I don't think this is a problem.
-clash
I think they'll come around again if they're not doing well now. A lot of times society gets gung-ho about war and patriotism and fighting bad guys, then gets disillusioned by the horrors of battle a years down the road, and then gets gung-ho again several years later.
man, i hope so. I'd love to see the new Morrow Project actually get released.
also, Sacrosanct i just realized who you were! (duhh yeah i'm that slow...)
Compact Heroes is awesome, and i can't wait to see what you do with Bleeding Sky! :D i'm a fan of the genre so count me in.
Quote from: kregmosier;564831Compact Heroes is awesome, and i can't wait to see what you do with Bleeding Sky! :D i'm a fan of the genre so count me in.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. That's really all I ever wanted to do--create a game that people actually have fun with. Not to derail or pimp myself, but right now I have an expansion in the mail coming to me, and if you PM your details, I'll work out a good discount with you if you're interested. I always want to support the people who help support me.
Our game Terror Network isn't exactly a military RPG but a lot of our players use ot for military campaigns and it attracts a lot of military rpg fans (also it's our biggest seller).
Quote from: CRKrueger;564738Unless you happen to come from a state with a tradition of military enlistment, the average American is more divorced from the military experience then ever before. The lack of a draft and actual declared wars means you don't have a case where everyone knows someone who might die tomorrow in a foreign land.
I'm sure my experience of the US is skewed since my wife is Tennessean, but from this side of the pond the US seems far more 'military' in culture than any other First World nation.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;564745Gosh, I sure hope not. I'm currently working on Bleeding Sky, a modern/post apoc game ;)
Granted, it's designed to be played at varying tech levels. The whole thing is post-apocalyptic, but depending on where you are in the world, you could have a western-themed game, a modern military game, or even a near future game.
*Edit* alright, photobucket is being a dick. I'll have to sort it out when I get home.
I don't know I think a good military game might do very well. The more important part is the complexity. Alot of those old military games were very complex much like alot of the games in that era. Today's playerbase seems to prefer simplicity the most. I would think this is because of family commitments, job commitments, and the general aging of the hobby more than anything else.
Quote from: S'mon;564846I'm sure my experience of the US is skewed since my wife is Tennessean, but from this side of the pond the US seems far more 'military' in culture than any other First World nation.
Oh yeah, we are, big time, however, most of us are chickenhawks. We love war but very few of us actually have family members or friends who are servicemen.
As a result we load of Call of Duty and bust some ass with a rocket launcher, but aren't into RPGs where our character's best friend just took a random round in the brainpan.
Quote from: Marleycat;564853I don't know I think a good military game might do very well. The more important part is the complexity. Alot of those old military games were very complex much like alot of the games in that era. Today's playerbase seems to prefer simplicity the most. I would think this is because of family commitments, job commitments, and the general aging of the hobby more than anything else.
Oh come on, you know it's because the kids these days are uneducated, with no attention span, little math skills and can't read more then a McDonalds wrapper. :D
Feeling my Old Bastard oats today.
I have a half baked theory that the internet is partially responsible for the decline of the military rpg genre.
If memory serves, hardware porn was part of the appeal for many. I can recall numerous rpg books filled with descriptions, illustrations and stats for a whole galaxy of weapons & vehicles.
Maybe the web provides an alternative means to scratch that particular itch?
Quote from: Dimitrios;564864I have a half baked theory that the internet is partially responsible for the decline of the military rpg genre.
If memory serves, hardware porn was part of the appeal for many. I can recall numerous rpg books filled with descriptions, illustrations and stats for a whole galaxy of weapons & vehicles.
Maybe the web provides an alternative means to scratch that particular itch?
I think you're on to something. One of the things I liked were the vehicle and weapon blueprints and pictures. Now those are super easy to get online.
The guys behind Morrow Project keep threatening to put out a new edition, but they've been saying that for years. So if it ever actually happens, I'll be surprised.
I don't think there's much call for a good military game in our current culture at least online (which for the most part looks down upon the military). In tandem with that issue is that a good military game (i.e. one that shows the characteristics of weapon systems and their tactics in detail) are too complex for the tastes of players today (again, in reference to online opinion, which I feel has too much influence these days over game design).
All which I think is a pity. I love a good military game, and in fact just finished a two year Morrow Project campaign of our own (using HERO for the rules). My kids (both active duty military) love those campaigns as well.
Quote from: CRKrueger;564857Oh yeah, we are, big time, however, most of us are chickenhawks. We love war but very few of us actually have family members or friends who are servicemen.
I think my wife's brother is the first man in her family not to have served in the military. But Tennessee is very much 'Born Fighting' Scots-Irish country.
Quote from: S'mon;564846I'm sure my experience of the US is skewed since my wife is Tennessean, but from this side of the pond the US seems far more 'military' in culture than any other First World nation.
We're a strange country in that regard, with a lot of mixed messages.
We have a bizarre mix of military worship that is just this side of ancient Sparta combined with a complete apathy towards actually serving ourselves, paying soldiers a living wage, the horrific treatment towards female soldiers, or even providing proper medical care for veterans.
Back on topic, I tend to lean to the side that says that the FPS video games cater better to that market. There is also the problem of RPG players tending to hate any kind of chain-of-command thing in-game (even RPG players who are veterans, IME).
I've been considering a post-apocalyptic military RPG heavily inspired by Twilight: 2000 (which I picked up in PDF on TDD's advice, a few months back), using... Mongoose Traveller. What better way to generate both combat veterans and civilians, than Traveller's lifepath? All that would be necessary would be to switch out the starfaring-specific skills.
My block is with the base geopolitical scenario. What sort of development could cause the world to go kaput? I've been thinking of a Middle East meltdown followed by a rearmed, expansionist Russia under a crazy right-wing government a la Tom Clancy's Endwar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy%27s_EndWar#Background). Hell, I could even slavage much of Twilight: 2000's scenarios by keeping Russkies the main antagonists.
d101 games put out The Company (http://d101games.co.uk/books/the-company/), which is a great game IMO, but as far as I can tell has not taken off like it should (also IMO).
It's current, it's versatile in the types of characters one can make and run (full-on military all the way to body-guards and spies), and it's BRP-based. What more could ya want? :D
Quote from: jgants;564907We're a strange country in that regard, with a lot of mixed messages.
We have a bizarre mix of military worship that is just this side of ancient Sparta combined with a complete apathy towards actually serving ourselves, paying soldiers a living wage, the horrific treatment towards female soldiers, or even providing proper medical care for veterans.
Compared to Britain, probably the secondmost warlike First World nation (I say First World rather than Developed nation to exclude Russia), Americans:
1. serve more often in the military, from a wider social range
2. Pay soldiers better
3. Possibly do treat female soldiers worse, but US culture has a lot of inter-sex hostility generally
4. Treat veterans *FAR* better.
The last point is most notable. We have no Veterans Administration or military hospitals. It often seems like most of our ex-squaddies can be found sleeping rough on the streets. Our treatment of them is absolutely appalling.
Quote from: The Butcher;564911My block is with the base geopolitical scenario. What sort of development could cause the world to go kaput? I've been thinking of a Middle East meltdown followed by a rearmed, expansionist Russia under a crazy right-wing government a la Tom Clancy's Endwar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy%27s_EndWar#Background). Hell, I could even slavage much of Twilight: 2000's scenarios by keeping Russkies the main antagonists.
Ask and ye shall be answered (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=562713#post562713), I've even got maps.
Quote from: The Butcher;564911My block is with the base geopolitical scenario. What sort of development could cause the world to go kaput? I've been thinking of a Middle East meltdown followed by a rearmed, expansionist Russia under a crazy right-wing government a la Tom Clancy's Endwar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy%27s_EndWar#Background). Hell, I could even slavage much of Twilight: 2000's scenarios by keeping Russkies the main antagonists.
In the backstory of the Judge Dredd character, the Great Atom Wars were started by the USA acquiring what President Booth thought was an impregnable anti-missile shield and going on a worldwide bout of regime change to make the world safe for democracy/get all the oil. The shield turned out not to work as well as they thought. Some kind of strategic miscalculation like that would seem necessary for a nuclear holocaust; I'd suggest that with China rising, a China-US struggle over control of the western Pacific combined with a big miscalculation by one side or both would be the likeliest source of a nuclear holocaust in the next century.
Eg: China might move to invade Australia to protect Chinese immigrants/secure all the minerals & farmland - China has already been buying up swathes of Australia using State-owned corporations, and might not tolerate a white-Australia populist government nationalising those resources. The US might intervene as 'peacekeepers', and end up in a war with the Chinese without intending it.
Quote from: gleichman;564874I don't think there's much call for a good military game in our current culture at least online (which for the most part looks down upon the military). .
If the rpg culture in general is anything like TBP, then this is true. Over there, you can pretty much call soldiers paid murderers and hardly anyone bats an eye. There is definitely a culture of disdain towards military servicemen and women there. And that being with Cessna being a vet himself too.
So it very well could be that a lot of gamers hate the military, unless it's being run by elves and dwarves. It would also be tied into the jock hate that most nerds have. In general, we all can agree that geeks don't like jocks. And there's an impression that most military people are jocks (I imagine because the atmosphere in the military and a football team have a lot of similarities).
So there you go.
Quote from: The Traveller;564923Ask and ye shall be answered (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=562713#post562713), I've even got maps.
That pretty good, and comprehenisve. I'm almost embarassed that I've missed it. Thanks!
Quote from: S'mon;564925In the backstory of the Judge Dredd character, the Great Atom Wars were started by the USA acquiring what President Booth thought was an impregnable anti-missile shield and going on a worldwide bout of regime change to make the world safe for democracy/get all the oil. The shield turned out not to work as well as they thought. Some kind of strategic miscalculation like that would seem necessary for a nuclear holocaust; I'd suggest that with China rising, a China-US struggle over control of the western Pacific combined with a big miscalculation by one side or both would be the likeliest source of a nuclear holocaust in the next century.
Interesting; I didn't know that. Thanks!
Quote from: Sigmund;564913d101 games put out The Company (http://d101games.co.uk/books/the-company/), which is a great game IMO, but as far as I can tell has not taken off like it should (also IMO).
It's current, it's versatile in the types of characters one can make and run (full-on military all the way to body-guards and spies), and it's BRP-based. What more could ya want? :D
The only problem with all these BRP games is that they use Openquest, which, God Bless Newt, pales in comparison to MRQII/RQ6.
After RQ6, any d100 without combat maneuvers is empty.
Quote from: S'mon;564919Compared to Britain, probably the secondmost warlike First World nation (I say First World rather than Developed nation to exclude Russia), Americans:
1. serve more often in the military, from a wider social range
2. Pay soldiers better
3. Possibly do treat female soldiers worse, but US culture has a lot of inter-sex hostility generally
4. Treat veterans *FAR* better.
The last point is most notable. We have no Veterans Administration or military hospitals. It often seems like most of our ex-squaddies can be found sleeping rough on the streets. Our treatment of them is absolutely appalling.
All correct except we aren't the second most warlike nation. We get into the most wars but that is because we liek to think we still have an empire and have an actual place in global politics.
The Swiss still have national service, likewise the Isrealis, who seem to be 1 step down from a fully mobilised population.
We do treat our veterens really really badly though.
The JD exampels are good.
I think there is space for a SciFi Military game as its far enough away from reality and has enough toys. A Drenai/VCs/Starship Troopers. Warhammer kind of has it covered but something with a less extreme background, more a Browncoats vs The Alliance type of deal migh have some legs.
Quote from: jibbajibba;564937All correct except we aren't the second most warlike nation. We get into the most wars but that is because we liek to think we still have an empire and have an actual place in global politics.
The Swiss still have national service, likewise the Isrealis, who seem to be 1 step down from a fully mobilised population.
We do treat our veterens really really badly though.
The JD exampels are good.
I think there is space for a SciFi Military game as its far enough away from reality and has enough toys. A Drenai/VCs/Starship Troopers. Warhammer kind of has it covered but something with a less extreme background, more a Browncoats vs The Alliance type of deal migh have some legs.
Switzerland doesn't fight wars, and I don't think Israel fights 'wars of choice' the way the US & Britain do. IMO choosing to fight wars when you don't have to makes you more warlike than having national service in order to avoid having to fight. BTW I once got threadbanned on ENW by Plane_Sailing for quoting historian John Keegan in describing the UK & US as warlike nations! :D
Agree about Alliance/Browncoats, I dislike WH40K but something less extreme, with a human enemy -
Rogue Trooper not
Starship Troopers - might be good.
Quote from: S'mon;564941Switzerland doesn't fight wars, and I don't think Israel fights 'wars of choice' the way the US & Britain do. IMO choosing to fight wars when you don't have to makes you more warlike than having national service in order to avoid having to fight. BTW I once got threadbanned on ENW by Plane_Sailing for quoting historian John Keegan in describing the UK & US as warlike nations! :D
Agree about Alliance/Browncoats, I dislike WH40K but something less extreme, with a human enemy - Rogue Trooper not Starship Troopers - might be good.
2000AD still have an awful lot of potential for games. Remember Bad Company? And I was looking at a Rogue Trooper idea. Playing with biochips as an alternate to resurection. The caveat was that you had a device you could attach to any creature then plug in your biochip. Would let PCs change bodies easily in game. I thought it would be good becuase you could build a realistic combat engine without having to worry that the PCs would get slaughtered too easily and it was enough of a quirk to draw in players.
Quote from: The Butcher;564933That pretty good, and comprehenisve. I'm almost embarassed that I've missed it. Thanks!
Quite welcome, I knew I should have opened an RPG forum thread on it. More to follow!
They were a flash in the pan? I also hope not as I'm currently working on a new post-apoc Walking Dead zombie campaign. ...Only the players are veterans and science team members who are awakened from cryo-slumber in a shelter or refuge Fallout or Wasteland style, somewhere close to Chicago.
you know what also rocked about Morrow Project? Making the manuals look like 3-ring TM's.
modules would be awesome done in the style of PS Magazine (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ps+magazine+connie&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=xCASUO_NNJSk8gSug4HABg&biw=1264&bih=670&sei=xyASUPv1DcPq6wGpwAE). ;)
SF games were "out" for a long time and now there's a gazillion new ones. There'll be a wave of military ones as soon as one eye-opener new product shows up. Everyone will jump that train.
I've got one brewing just to get a head start.
Quote from: CRKrueger;564936The only problem with all these BRP games is that they use Openquest, which, God Bless Newt, pales in comparison to MRQII/RQ6.
After RQ6, any d100 without combat maneuvers is empty.
It depends on what ya want. It would not be difficult to inject the CMs in OQ, but to be honest, I think the modern military game is better without them.
I like 'em all. OQ is also better IMO for running games online.
They better start picking up again. There are precious few Vintage games set in the modern era that aren't about the military.
In an alternate universe, Gary wrote a 3lbb supplement for Tractics' modern volume and in that universe people play a T2k-like game as the most popular RPG.
:(
I wanna live there
Quote from: Sigmund;564913d101 games put out The Company (http://d101games.co.uk/books/the-company/), which is a great game IMO, but as far as I can tell has not taken off like it should (also IMO).
It's current, it's versatile in the types of characters one can make and run (full-on military all the way to body-guards and spies), and it's BRP-based. What more could ya want? :D
+1.
It's a current-day military setting that doesn't have a contrived overarching conspiracy or any shade of occult/extraterrestrials/nuclear holocaust/etc. as a reason to adventure. The premise (being employees of a UK-sanctioned mercenary company) provides a whole spectrum of gaming from shooting-fests to spooking to psychological drama. You can play violent through to pacifist characters. Company politics, international politics, armed conflicts, peace keeping, spying, personal security, etc. It can do the lot. Lots of equipment to play with but the rules are streamlined (yes, an attraction over the crunch of RQ6, etc. in my opinion).
As Sigmund pointed out, it's currently being overlooked but I recommend you take a look (http://d101games.co.uk/books/the-company/).
I'm running a Morrow project game this September at Tacticon here in Denver - I'm going to use Savage Worlds instead of the normal system, but that's partially because the Morrow Project (at least, the copy I have) is a weird mess of rules, and partially because I'm in a Savage Worlds booster group.
Quote from: Stainless;565707+1.
It's a current-day military setting that doesn't have a contrived overarching conspiracy or any shade of occult/extraterrestrials/nuclear holocaust/etc. as a reason to adventure. The premise (being employees of a UK-sanctioned mercenary company) provides a whole spectrum of gaming from shooting-fests to spooking to psychological drama. You can play violent through to pacifist characters. Company politics, international politics, armed conflicts, peace keeping, spying, personal security, etc. It can do the lot. Lots of equipment to play with but the rules are streamlined (yes, an attraction over the crunch of RQ6, etc. in my opinion).
As Sigmund pointed out, it's currently being overlooked but I recommend you take a look (http://d101games.co.uk/books/the-company/).
I'll also mention, despite it most likely being obvious to the vast majority of ya'all, that the default "setting" (the company) could easily be ditched and replaced with any sort of modern setting or trappings a GM could want. The rules and gear stats are all there, and there's sub-systems from the larger umbrella of BRP that are practically plug-and-play. I could see myself running all sorts of modern stuff with it, including grabbing the Dark Matter setting and running it with The Company and select rules from BRP and/or OQ and/or RQ. I'm certainly gonna get my espionage game on with it :D
Quote from: Sigmund;565899I'll also mention, despite it most likely being obvious to the vast majority of ya'all, that the default "setting" (the company) could easily be ditched and replaced with any sort of modern setting or trappings a GM could want. The rules and gear stats are all there, and there's sub-systems from the larger umbrella of BRP that are practically plug-and-play. I could see myself running all sorts of modern stuff with it, including grabbing the Dark Matter setting and running it with The Company and select rules from BRP and/or OQ and/or RQ. I'm certainly gonna get my espionage game on with it :D
Hi,
The idea to make it as flexible as possible was one of my main goals, when I designed The Company.
Certainly the concept of plug and play is in there, take the setting and throw away The Blades Group (aka The Company) and add in your favourite military unit or setting.
In fact, in the up-coming suppliment to The Company, I've created a Russian competitor, complete with architypes; plus a whole load more equipment and weapons.
Rik K-M
Quote from: rik-km;566000Hi,
The idea to make it as flexible as possible was one of my main goals, when I designed The Company.
Certainly the concept of plug and play is in there, take the setting and throw away The Blades Group (aka The Company) and add in your favourite military unit or setting.
In fact, in the up-coming suppliment to The Company, I've created a Russian competitor, complete with architypes; plus a whole load more equipment and weapons.
Rik K-M
Welcome to TheRPGSite, Rik! Your game sounds interesting. Please feel free to stick around and tell us more!
-TGA
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;566012Welcome to TheRPGSite, Rik! Your game sounds interesting. Please feel free to stick around and tell us more!
-TGA
Sure... such as what?
The fact it's got a big list of guns; or the that it is has rules of Air Combat Maneouvers; or that it really does offer a very fluid means of modelling modern warfare.... oh I could go on forever....
Quote from: CRKrueger;564859Feeling my Old Bastard oats today.
Old Bastard Oats: Cooked with hot ashes instead of boiling water and flavored with sand instead of brown sugar.
Quote from: rik-km;566095Sure... such as what?
The fact it's got a big list of guns; or the that it is has rules of Air Combat Maneouvers; or that it really does offer a very fluid means of modelling modern warfare.... oh I could go on forever....
What do you think The Company does best? (I figured I would give you an open ended question to start) What do you think the best way to deal with issues of command and rank in a military setting? In my experience that is often a stumbling block in military themed games because of the notoriously anarchic nature of most RPG groups.
Also, are you planning to do specific expansions that cover military ops in different past conflicts, say Vietnam or Africa?
-TGA
Quote from: rik-km;566095or the that it is has rules of Air Combat Maneouvers
Well, you'll probably get credit for innovation for that! :D
-clash
Quote from: flyingmice;566156Well, you'll probably get credit for innovation for that! :D
-clash
I don't think he's claiming to have innovated there, any more than the "big list of guns" he mentions. (Reminds me that I must give your flying games a go one day.)
The Good Assyrian, in the one game of The Company I played, it was actually quite natural and fun to defer to the one player who was in charge. It offers a lot of roleplaying opportunity. It also makes decision making much easier/streamlined, as long as everyone is in the mindset of accepting the officer's decisions (which you shoud be if you've chosen to play a military roleplaying game). The main issue I see is that the player who is running the officer character may not want the responsibility
Quote from: Stainless;566239I don't think he's claiming to have innovated there, any more than the "big list of guns" he mentions. (Reminds me that I must give your flying games a go one day.)
Ah - that was not directed at rik-km. It was a bitter observation on popular perception of innovation - the way most gamers think White Wolf came up with dice pools, for example. If rik-km is using the ACM, he - or she - is doing it the *right* way. Ben Baugh and Levi Kornelsen are working on/have put out games based on my version of using ACM, which is awesome! That the Company is using ACM is awesome, whether or not they are using my particular implementation! :D
QuoteThe Good Assyrian, in the one game of The Company I played, it was actually quite natural and fun to defer to the one player who was in charge. It offers a lot of roleplaying opportunity. It also makes decision making much easier/streamlined, as long as everyone is in the mindset of accepting the officer's decisions (which you shoud be if you've chosen to play a military roleplaying game). The main issue I see is that the player who is running the officer character may not want the responsibility
I have found the above to be true whenever I run military games. The trick is always to ensure that only those who *want* command get it. It's not something which should be assigned randomly.
-clash
Quote from: rik-km;566000Hi,
The idea to make it as flexible as possible was one of my main goals, when I designed The Company.
Certainly the concept of plug and play is in there, take the setting and throw away The Blades Group (aka The Company) and add in your favourite military unit or setting.
In fact, in the up-coming suppliment to The Company, I've created a Russian competitor, complete with architypes; plus a whole load more equipment and weapons.
Rik K-M
Rockin! I am gonna be all over that :) Thanks for the great game :)
Quote from: rik-km;566095Sure... such as what?
The fact it's got a big list of guns; or the that it is has rules of Air Combat Maneouvers; or that it really does offer a very fluid means of modelling modern warfare.... oh I could go on forever....
You know what would be cool? A short guide on how to stat up real world weapons, especially from different eras. I could see using The Company to run my Miami Nights '80s cop setting.
Quote from: flyingmice;566269I have found the above to be true whenever I run military games. The trick is always to ensure that only those who *want* command get it. It's not something which should be assigned randomly.
-clash
Same here. I have never had a problem deferring to the character in charge when playing in any sci-fi or military or espionage game. I play Starcluster 3 run by Clash, and Tim (Silverlion) plays the Captain of our Company and it works great. It might not be as good for pick-up games or casual game store games, but with a group of buds, I've never found it to be a problem at all.
Quote from: Dimitrios;564864I have a half baked theory that the internet is partially responsible for the decline of the military rpg genre.
If memory serves, hardware porn was part of the appeal for many. I can recall numerous rpg books filled with descriptions, illustrations and stats for a whole galaxy of weapons & vehicles.
Maybe the web provides an alternative means to scratch that particular itch?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;564867I think you're on to something. One of the things I liked were the vehicle and weapon blueprints and pictures. Now those are super easy to get online.
Idunno. When I was a kid, a big part of Shadowrun's appeal was the "gear shopping," but I don't care so much for the actual nuts and bolts of real military hardware.
It may be that the general popularity of systems wherein there are 12 handguns on the equipment list (and meaningful differences from one to another) is not what it was--but Shadowrun and the 40k games are pretty popular.
It could be that it's a lot less work for designers to make crunchy gun-porn material in a sci-fi/fantasy milieu than in a fairly real-world setting.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;566142What do you think The Company does best? (I figured I would give you an open ended question to start) What do you think the best way to deal with issues of command and rank in a military setting? In my experience that is often a stumbling block in military themed games because of the notoriously anarchic nature of most RPG groups.
Also, are you planning to do specific expansions that cover military ops in different past conflicts, say Vietnam or Africa?
Gosh, start with an easy one :-)
Okay, well I feel The Company allows you as both a GM and a player to be flexible, to enable dynamic story telling that is both fast and flexible.
I am however, not going to say I've re-invented gaming with this product; certainly not going to claim there is anything really inventive with the game, although I am pretty pleased with the way I handle vehicle collisions ;-)
The squad level play is a fairly light touch, in the original version (pre-play test) things were a lot stronger but this didn't suit any of the players I used. They didn't like the concept of rigid miitary hierarchy, and so some of the rules regarding conduct were removed and in stead I shifted that onto the GM - the idea is that if the RoE ar breached then it is up to the GM to decide how best to proceed with a suitable punishment. You can think of this as a very rules light form of SANITY loss.
As to in party leadership, this is normally given to the player whom the GM thinks is most suitable; although applying it randomly is also good fun. Having a squad in full on rebellion when the leader goes utterly off the plot seems to be very fun indeed.
Having a leader can also help, as I recently found out when one particular player decided to monopolise the play, and rather annoyed all the other players. Eventually the leader 'ordered' this player's character to actually do something.
Now, settings: the short answer to this is yes I have thought of it, but no I will not be producing anything for these eras. The reason for this is simply that:
1. That creating a realistic world for any of these eras would be both very time consuming and frought with getting some of the details wrong in some way. Such conflicts are simply too well documented and people have so many views on them that I would bound to be heavily criticised.
2. For some of these eras I, as a UK national, would never presume to document another country's war.
So it is easier for me to stay well clear of them. However there is nothing stopping anyone from doing this.
Rik K-M
Quote from: Sigmund;566306You know what would be cool? A short guide on how to stat up real world weapons, especially from different eras. I could see using The Company to run my Miami Nights '80s cop setting.
Interesting suggestion. I will see what I can do. I will probably post it up on The Company development blog (http://thecompany.d101games.co.uk/)...
Actually you ought to find most of the weapons found in Miami Vice in The Company already. Although Crocket's S&W 645 isn't in there, you can simply take the stats for a .40S&W auto, say a M&P LE Duty and use that instead.
And the Cop setting would work too... If you did I'd be real interested in the feedback on car collisions (again very Miami Vice).
Rik K-M
Quote from: Halloween Jack;566320Idunno. When I was a kid, a big part of Shadowrun's appeal was the "gear shopping," but I don't care so much for the actual nuts and bolts of real military hardware.
It may be that the general popularity of systems wherein there are 12 handguns on the equipment list (and meaningful differences from one to another) is not what it was--but Shadowrun and the 40k games are pretty popular.
It could be that it's a lot less work for designers to make crunchy gun-porn material in a sci-fi/fantasy milieu than in a fairly real-world setting.
It is, it cuts down the time you spend researching and writinh this stuff up. I mean fantasy a sword is basically a sword - it comes in either "short", "hand and a half" and "long".
And in sci-fi - your basic laser gun comes as either a "pistol" or a "rifle".
Modern stuff, people actually want you to describe real things - internet or not. And when you do describe stuff, you have to espect to have to field the "where is my favourite gun" comments.
This explains why the equipment and weapons section took over 5 months to write.
It also explains why I've added more guns to the Red Book Suppliment.
Rik K-M
Quote from: flyingmice;566269AThat the Company is using ACM is awesome, whether or not they are using my particular implementation! :D
Sorry to admit but I'm not using your implementation of ACM. Which probably means what I've got is clunky and very unsubtle compared to your wonderful rules.
Rik K-M
Quote from: rik-km;566362Sorry to admit but I'm not using your implementation of ACM. Which probably means what I've got is clunky and very unsubtle compared to your wonderful rules.
Rik K-M
I think you are reading me wrong. If you are using ACM to model air combat, you are awesome. You are *way* ahead of the rest of the field. Your air combats will rock! I don't think you "copied" my work. I think you did the same thing I did - read about ACM, realize this would kick ass at actually modelling air combat in games, and then figure out a way to do that.
You don't know me, but I'm not generally thought of as a dick. :D
If you PM me, I'll send you a copy of one of my air combat games, and you are welcome to use it if you like it better than what you came up with. The other designers who *did* use it didn't license it from me. They said "Hey, clash! I love the air combat system you used! Can I adapt it for my own game?" I said hell yeah! This advances the art.
Personally I would *love* to see what you have come up with. It may be better than the way I approached it. If so, I can learn from it, and for me, that's what it's all about, making better games.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmice;566385I think you are reading me wrong. If you are using ACM to model air combat, you are awesome. You are *way* ahead of the rest of the field. Your air combats will rock! I don't think you "copied" my work. I think you did the same thing I did - read about ACM, realize this would kick ass at actually modelling air combat in games, and then figure out a way to do that.
You don't know me, but I'm not generally thought of as a dick. :D
If you PM me, I'll send you a copy of one of my air combat games, and you are welcome to use it if you like it better than what you came up with. The other designers who *did* use it didn't license it from me. They said "Hey, clash! I love the air combat system you used! Can I adapt it for my own game?" I said hell yeah! This advances the art.
Personally I would *love* to see what you have come up with. It may be better than the way I approached it. If so, I can learn from it, and for me, that's what it's all about, making better games.
-clash
Don't worry I'm not thinking of you in that way at all. But I have a feeling your solution is going to be far better than mine :-)
When I was developing The Company, I'd just finished a long contract where I'd spent quite a bit of time working on various Air Defense systems.
So at the back of my mind was missiles - there must be Surface to Air missiles; but then there must also be ways for pilots to avoid such missiles.
From there it went, if we've got surface to air, then there must be air to air; after that it all kind of spiraled out of control to include close in gun fire.
At one point I remembr walking up a hill close to where I live, plotting max rate turns with my hands and trying to work out shooting solutions...
Totally barking :-)
Rik K-M
Quote from: rik-km;566095Sure... such as what?
The fact it's got a big list of guns; or the that it is has rules of Air Combat Maneouvers; or that it really does offer a very fluid means of modelling modern warfare.... oh I could go on forever....
Hey Rik! I'm a huge enthusiast of modern-day ass-kicking games, and I'm seriously considering picking up The Company.
You mentioned a fairly extensive military hardware list, and I do have a couple of questions.
Do you cover surveillance technology? I have a couple of awesome modern-day action RPGs that I end up not playing a lot because the tech chapter is hopelessly outdated, and I no longer have the time and inclination to do research the way I'd like to.
And, is there a dedicated systen for unarmed martial arts (beyond, say, "Unarmed Combat 95% - you rule at punching people")? I considered cooking up one for BRP using something similar to MRQII/Legend's Combat Maneuvers (aka RQ6's Special Effects).
Also, how easy would it be to plug back classic RQ hit locations?
Quote from: rik-km;566405Don't worry I'm not thinking of you in that way at all. But I have a feeling your solution is going to be far better than mine :-)
When I was developing The Company, I'd just finished a long contract where I'd spent quite a bit of time working on various Air Defense systems.
So at the back of my mind was missiles - there must be Surface to Air missiles; but then there must also be ways for pilots to avoid such missiles.
From there it went, if we've got surface to air, then there must be air to air; after that it all kind of spiraled out of control to include close in gun fire.
At one point I remembr walking up a hill close to where I live, plotting max rate turns with my hands and trying to work out shooting solutions...
Totally barking :-)
Rik K-M
Heh! Sounds familiar! :D
I read the Boyd biography, and the wheels in my head started churning. I started from the other end - WWI dogfighting, then progressed through WWII, then finally the modern stuff, with BVR, FLIR, RADAR and the rest. But I was swooping my hands around, estimating turn rates too. Barking fits it quite nicely! :D
-clash
Quote from: The Butcher;566407I do have a couple of questions.
Do you cover surveillance technology?
And, is there a dedicated systen for unarmed martial arts (beyond, say, "Unarmed Combat 95% - you rule at punching people")? I considered cooking up one for BRP using something similar to MRQII/Legend's Combat Maneuvers (aka RQ6's Special Effects).
Also, how easy would it be to plug back classic RQ hit locations?
Hi,
Well to answer your last question first - easy although there are hit locations in The Company - it is an optional rule. Used for calculating major wound locations and also for when choosing where to put the bullet when sniping.
e.g:
"Major arm - muscle, tendon and/or bone damage so severe that either the arm is severed completely from body or must be removed later. Lose one extra Hit Point per round from blood loss. Automatically drop any held items. Possibility of going into shock (Roll 1D6 – Odds: no shock. Evens: heart stops as per #8). Lose 2 points of DEX and 2 STR permanently. Gripping items now only possible via a prosthetic. To calculate which arm is hit roll 1D6 – Odds: left arm. Evens: right arm."Now for the first question - yes there is surveilance kit in The Company - covert bugs, laser microphones, TEMPEST voltage clamps, radio scanners, battle field RADAR troop dectection systems etc...
I have expanded this out a little for the Red Book - where I've got sniper detection systems, snake cameras, pole cameras and of course my personal fave Through-Wall Imaging Systems.
Hopefully this may appeal as being a bit state of the art?
Sadly, when it comes to your second question - there is no dedicated martial arts combat. I did toy with the idea of doing this, but I couldn't think of how to do it and retain the fast-flow of the D100 games engine. However I keep being asked for such combat; so I really am considering developing something.
Hope all this helps.
Rik K-M
Quote from: rik-km;566440Hi,
Well to answer your last question first - easy although there are hit locations in The Company - it is an optional rule. Used for calculating major wound locations and also for when choosing where to put the bullet when sniping.
e.g:
"Major arm - muscle, tendon and/or bone damage so severe that either the arm is severed completely from body or must be removed later. Lose one extra Hit Point per round from blood loss. Automatically drop any held items. Possibility of going into shock (Roll 1D6 – Odds: no shock. Evens: heart stops as per #8). Lose 2 points of DEX and 2 STR permanently. Gripping items now only possible via a prosthetic. To calculate which arm is hit roll 1D6 – Odds: left arm. Evens: right arm."
Now for the first question - yes there is surveilance kit in The Company - covert bugs, laser microphones, TEMPEST voltage clamps, radio scanners, battle field RADAR troop dectection systems etc...
I have expanded this out a little for the Red Book - where I've got sniper detection systems, snake cameras, pole cameras and of course my personal fave Through-Wall Imaging Systems.
Hopefully this may appeal as being a bit state of the art?
Sadly, when it comes to your second question - there is no dedicated martial arts combat. I did toy with the idea of doing this, but I couldn't think of how to do it and retain the fast-flow of the D100 games engine. However I keep being asked for such combat; so I really am considering developing something.
Hope all this helps.
Rik K-M
The Red Book sounds awesome, please let us know here when it can be ordered or pre-ordered because I'll be all over it. Also, I think a small supp on close/hand-to-hand/martial arts combat would be pretty cool as a possible add-on for GMs wanting to plug that in. It would be great for a Jason Bourne style espionage level campaign as well. I've even thought of doing a Burn Notice (http://www.usanetwork.com/series/burnnotice/) style campaign with The Company, and the hand-to-hand expansion would fit nicely in that.
Quote from: Sigmund;566861The Red Book sounds awesome, please let us know here when it can be ordered or pre-ordered because I'll be all over it. Also, I think a small supp on close/hand-to-hand/martial arts combat would be pretty cool as a possible add-on for GMs wanting to plug that in. It would be great for a Jason Bourne style espionage level campaign as well. I've even thought of doing a Burn Notice (http://www.usanetwork.com/series/burnnotice/) style campaign with The Company, and the hand-to-hand expansion would fit nicely in that.
Well it is currently being proof-read, and then when that is finished it will go for layout...
Which is code for saying its up to the publisher at D101 to set the release schedule... I'm just the writer ;-)
As to your idea about a quick and dirty hand to hand suppliment, I will see... I think I can see how to make it work.
The Burn notice idea sounds interesting - although when it comes to espionage, well I am probably not the right person to write about it.
Rik K-M
Quote from: rik-km;566904The Burn notice idea sounds interesting - although when it comes to espionage, well I am probably not the right person to write about it.
Rik K-M
This sounds like a good idea to me.
if you decide to do this definitely contact me and I will help however I am able. I have a group of players who love the genre and are solid playtesters (they've playtested a lot of published games--not just mine--and give excellent feedback). Can recommend a ton of resources for understanding different government agencies. I also have some experience with the genre through terror network. One thing you should know, there is a game based on burn notice called blow back. I haven't played it, i believe it may be more of a storygame (but I could be wrong).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;566908This sounds like a good idea to me.
if you decide to do this definitely contact me and I will help however I am able. I have a group of players who love the genre and are solid playtesters (they've playtested a lot of published games--not just mine--and give excellent feedback). Can recommend a ton of resources for understanding different government agencies. I also have some experience with the genre through terror network. One thing you should know, there is a game based on burn notice called blow back. I haven't played it, i believe it may be more of a storygame (but I could be wrong).
It looks like boulet might be a little closer to it's development, perhaps he'd be willing to chime in about what Blow Back is like. Still, I think I'd rather play the game using the tried and true D101 version of the BRP rules (in other words, one of my fav systems :D ).
It does look like a Story Game though... on cursory reading of the site it looks like it might be more or less similar to Fiasco and Technoir. That's not entirely bad, I like both of those games, but I'd like to also play this using an RPG as well. I had been thinking of using GD3, but for Burn Notice specifically i think the heavier crunch of The Company plus some add-ons might be better for me.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;566908This sounds like a good idea to me.
if you decide to do this definitely contact me and I will help however I am able. I have a group of players who love the genre and are solid playtesters (they've playtested a lot of published games--not just mine--and give excellent feedback). Can recommend a ton of resources for understanding different government agencies. I also have some experience with the genre through terror network. One thing you should know, there is a game based on burn notice called blow back. I haven't played it, i believe it may be more of a storygame (but I could be wrong).
You can do worse than to take Brendan up on this Rik, Terror Network and his Roman espionage game Servants of Gaius are both damn awesome.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;566908This sounds like a good idea to me.
if you decide to do this definitely contact me and I will help however I am able. I have a group of players who love the genre and are solid playtesters (they've playtested a lot of published games--not just mine--and give excellent feedback). Can recommend a ton of resources for understanding different government agencies. I also have some experience with the genre through terror network. One thing you should know, there is a game based on burn notice called blow back. I haven't played it, i believe it may be more of a storygame (but I could be wrong).
I'll put it to The Publisher and see what he says about it...
Rik K-M
Quote from: Sigmund;566919Roman espionage game
Wait, someone did this? We need an index of games summed up by "three words of awesome".
Quote from: The Traveller;566948Wait, someone did this? We need an index of games summed up by "three words of awesome".
Roman espionage, intrigue and mystery: Servants of Gaius (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/99908/Servants-of-Gaius)
Quote from: The Butcher;566407Hey Rik! I'm a huge enthusiast of modern-day ass-kicking games, and I'm seriously considering picking up The Company.
Do yourself a favour and buy the book. Especially the hardcover. It's a thing of beauty in my opinion (the next best cover to Traveller's minimal black). Very stylish. The writing is good (although, sorry Rik, the proofing could have been better). All you need is there for a good solid start. Although Rik's bringing out a supplement (The Red Book), good scenarios are what I think the game needs for support.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;566954Roman espionage, intrigue and mystery: Servants of Gaius (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/99908/Servants-of-Gaius)
Woah! That looks amazing...!
That is my holiday reading sorted.
Been thinking more about your espionage offer, my suggestion is to pitch it to Newt at d101. My guess is he will bite. He knows I can't write anything more than the basic elements, which are included with The Company - such as pavement artists, penetration specialists etc...
And I know it is an area he wants to explore.
Rik K-M
Quote from: Halloween Jack;566320Idunno. When I was a kid, a big part of Shadowrun's appeal was the "gear shopping," but I don't care so much for the actual nuts and bolts of real military hardware.
It may be that the general popularity of systems wherein there are 12 handguns on the equipment list (and meaningful differences from one to another) is not what it was--but Shadowrun and the 40k games are pretty popular.
It could be that it's a lot less work for designers to make crunchy gun-porn material in a sci-fi/fantasy milieu than in a fairly real-world setting.
Dogs of W*A*R (based on BoL) takes the lighter approach that you don't need every weapon on earth to be included in the rulebook - just a generalised list. My thought was that guys n gals who like military-style rpgs have their favourite handguns and will just say that their generic heavy pistol is a Desert Eagle or whatever. But, on reflection, I do think military gamers like to have their favourite guns specifically listed in the rules (although you're gonna upset someone because you can't include 'em all).
Quote from: Simon W;567149I do think military gamers like to have their favourite guns specifically listed in the rules (although you're gonna upset someone because you can't include 'em all).
Tell me about it :) 14 days before the first "why isn't my gun listed" complaint.
Rik-KM
Quote from: Simon W;567149Dogs of W*A*R (based on BoL) takes the lighter approach that you don't need every weapon on earth to be included in the rulebook - just a generalised list. My thought was that guys n gals who like military-style rpgs have their favourite handguns and will just say that their generic heavy pistol is a Desert Eagle or whatever. But, on reflection, I do think military gamers like to have their favourite guns specifically listed in the rules (although you're gonna upset someone because you can't include 'em all).
Speaking for myself, I am a fan of the modern-day action genre, mostly by way of cinema (I did read a couple of Eric Van Lustbader novels back when I was an impressionable kid, though), and I'm certainly not into "gun porn" outside gaming.
And yet having characters flashing off and gushing on their prized pieces of cutting-edge military hardware (usually with impressive and technical-sounding terms) feels like a genre staple to me, so I welcome modern-day action games packed with different models.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;566954Roman espionage, intrigue and mystery: Servants of Gaius (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/99908/Servants-of-Gaius)
Quote from: SoG ad blurb- Monsters and other supernatural threats
*
sigh*
Quote from: Black Vulmea;567207*sigh*
:)
Well, this isn't for everyone. But I will at least explain why the monsters and surpernatural threats are there:
The setting assumes the Roman world view is basically true: gods exist, some forms of magic and divination are real, supernatural creatures inhabit the world. This is important because the core conceit of the game is that Caligula isn't mad, but is in fact a god. The espionage part of the game arises from the conflict between Caligula and Neptune. In a sense I ported terror network into ancient Rome but replaced terrorism with the the neptune cult.
Well, it isn't exactly a modern military RPG, but I'm building an alt-history Technothriller Shadowrun (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23452) campaign, based around PC's who are Spec Ops for the US government.
I'm using GURPS Espionage, Special Ops, and Covert Ops as my Special Forces "bible".
Anyone have any suggestions for other/better source material?
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;567233:)
Well, this isn't for everyone. But I will at least explain why the monsters and surpernatural threats are there:
The setting assumes the Roman world view is basically true: gods exist, some forms of magic and divination are real, supernatural creatures inhabit the world. This is important because the core conceit of the game is that Caligula isn't mad, but is in fact a god. The espionage part of the game arises from the conflict between Caligula and Neptune. In a sense I ported terror network into ancient Rome but replaced terrorism with the the neptune cult.
Makes perfect sense to me... Very Falco ;)
Bought a copy and it's a cracking bit of work. I wonder if I can get this into a slot at Furnace in October (http://rpgfurnace.com/)?
Quote from: rik-km;567294Makes perfect sense to me... Very Falco ;)
Bought a copy and it's a cracking bit of work. I wonder if I can get this into a slot at Furnace in October (http://rpgfurnace.com/)?
Rik, wrangle it so I can register for Furnace, and I'll play it. However, at the moment it's booked up and I can'a get in Captain!
theRPGsite: just being here gets your book sold!
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;567662theRPGsite: just being here gets your book sold!
RPGPundit
I've also suggested to Rik that he send you a review copy so that it can benefit from your Midas touch (assuming you were to review it favourably).
We do most of or Military type stuff in Sci-Fi settings.
Quote from: Stainless;567870I've also suggested to Rik that he send you a review copy so that it can benefit from your Midas touch (assuming you were to review it favourably).
That sounds great, but make sure they get in touch with me; right now there's a postal strike in uruguay, so you'd have to either wait an indeterminate number of time (hopefully not more than a couple of weeks) until I give the all-clear, or send it by a courier (fedex or the likes, which is the safest surest fastest way to get something here, though more expensive obviously).
RPGPundit