Quote from: Marleycat;564853I don't know I think a good military game might do very well. The more important part is the complexity. Alot of those old military games were very complex much like alot of the games in that era. Today's playerbase seems to prefer simplicity the most. I would think this is because of family commitments, job commitments, and the general aging of the hobby more than anything else.

Oh come on, you know it's because the kids these days are uneducated, with no attention span, little math skills and can't read more then a McDonalds wrapper.

Feeling my Old Bastard oats today.

I have a half baked theory that the internet is partially responsible for the decline of the military rpg genre.

If memory serves, hardware porn was part of the appeal for many. I can recall numerous rpg books filled with descriptions, illustrations and stats for a whole galaxy of weapons & vehicles.

Maybe the web provides an alternative means to scratch that particular itch?

Quote from: Dimitrios;564864I have a half baked theory that the internet is partially responsible for the decline of the military rpg genre.

If memory serves, hardware porn was part of the appeal for many. I can recall numerous rpg books filled with descriptions, illustrations and stats for a whole galaxy of weapons & vehicles.

Maybe the web provides an alternative means to scratch that particular itch?

I think you're on to something.  One of the things I liked were the vehicle and weapon blueprints and pictures.  Now those are super easy to get online.

The guys behind Morrow Project keep threatening to put out a new edition, but they've been saying that for years. So if it ever actually happens, I'll be surprised.

I don't think there's much call for a good military game in our current culture at least online (which for the most part looks down upon the military). In tandem with that issue is that a good military game (i.e. one that shows the characteristics of weapon systems and their tactics in detail) are too complex for the tastes of players today (again, in reference to online opinion, which I feel has too much influence these days over game design).

All which I think is a pity. I love a good military game, and in fact just finished a two year Morrow Project campaign of our own (using HERO for the rules). My kids (both active duty military) love those campaigns as well.

Quote from: CRKrueger;564857Oh yeah, we are, big time, however, most of us are chickenhawks.  We love war but very few of us actually have family members or friends who are servicemen.

I think my wife's brother is the first man in her family not to have served in the military. But Tennessee is very much 'Born Fighting' Scots-Irish country.

Quote from: S'mon;564846I'm sure my experience of the US is skewed since my wife is Tennessean, but from this side of the pond the US seems far more 'military' in culture than any other First World nation.

We're a strange country in that regard, with a lot of mixed messages.

We have a bizarre mix of military worship that is just this side of ancient Sparta combined with a complete apathy towards actually serving ourselves, paying soldiers a living wage, the horrific treatment towards female soldiers, or even providing proper medical care for veterans.

Back on topic, I tend to lean to the side that says that the FPS video games cater better to that market. There is also the problem of RPG players tending to hate any kind of chain-of-command thing in-game (even RPG players who are veterans, IME).

I've been considering a post-apocalyptic military RPG heavily inspired by Twilight: 2000 (which I picked up in PDF on TDD's advice, a few months back), using... Mongoose Traveller. What better way to generate both combat veterans and civilians, than Traveller's lifepath? All that would be necessary would be to switch out the starfaring-specific skills.

My block is with the base geopolitical scenario. What sort of development could cause the world to go kaput? I've been thinking of a Middle East meltdown followed by a rearmed, expansionist Russia under a crazy right-wing government a la Tom Clancy's Endwar. Hell, I could even slavage much of Twilight: 2000's scenarios by keeping Russkies the main antagonists.

d101 games put out The Company, which is a great game IMO, but as far as I can tell has not taken off like it should (also IMO).

It's current, it's versatile in the types of characters one can make and run (full-on military all the way to body-guards and spies), and it's BRP-based. What more could ya want?

Quote from: jgants;564907We're a strange country in that regard, with a lot of mixed messages.

We have a bizarre mix of military worship that is just this side of ancient Sparta combined with a complete apathy towards actually serving ourselves, paying soldiers a living wage, the horrific treatment towards female soldiers, or even providing proper medical care for veterans.

Compared to Britain, probably the secondmost warlike First World nation (I say First World rather than Developed nation to exclude Russia), Americans:

1. serve more often in the military, from a wider social range
2. Pay soldiers better
3. Possibly do treat female soldiers worse, but US culture has a lot of inter-sex hostility generally
4. Treat veterans *FAR* better.

The last point is most notable. We have no Veterans Administration or military hospitals. It often seems like most of our ex-squaddies can be found sleeping rough on the streets. Our treatment of them is absolutely appalling.

Quote from: The Butcher;564911My block is with the base geopolitical scenario. What sort of development could cause the world to go kaput? I've been thinking of a Middle East meltdown followed by a rearmed, expansionist Russia under a crazy right-wing government a la Tom Clancy's Endwar. Hell, I could even slavage much of Twilight: 2000's scenarios by keeping Russkies the main antagonists.

Ask and ye shall be answered, I've even got maps.

Quote from: The Butcher;564911My block is with the base geopolitical scenario. What sort of development could cause the world to go kaput? I've been thinking of a Middle East meltdown followed by a rearmed, expansionist Russia under a crazy right-wing government a la Tom Clancy's Endwar. Hell, I could even slavage much of Twilight: 2000's scenarios by keeping Russkies the main antagonists.

In the backstory of the Judge Dredd character, the Great Atom Wars were started by the USA acquiring what President Booth thought was an impregnable anti-missile shield and going on a worldwide bout of regime change to make the world safe for democracy/get all the oil. The shield turned out not to work as well as they thought. Some kind of strategic miscalculation like that would seem necessary for a nuclear holocaust; I'd suggest that with China rising, a China-US struggle over control of the western Pacific combined with a big miscalculation by one side or both would be the likeliest source of a nuclear holocaust in the next century.
Eg: China might move to invade Australia to protect Chinese immigrants/secure all the minerals & farmland - China has already been buying up swathes of Australia using State-owned corporations, and might not tolerate a white-Australia populist government nationalising those resources. The US might intervene as 'peacekeepers', and end up in a war with the Chinese without intending it.

Quote from: gleichman;564874I don't think there's much call for a good military game in our current culture at least online (which for the most part looks down upon the military). .

If the rpg culture in general is anything like TBP, then this is true.  Over there, you can pretty much call soldiers paid murderers and hardly anyone bats an eye.  There is definitely a culture of disdain towards military servicemen and women there.  And that being with Cessna being a vet himself too.

So it very well could be that a lot of gamers hate the military, unless it's being run by elves and dwarves.  It would also be tied into the jock hate that most nerds have.  In general, we all can agree that geeks don't like jocks.  And there's an impression that most military people are jocks (I imagine because the atmosphere in the military and a football team have a lot of similarities).

So there you go.

Quote from: The Traveller;564923Ask and ye shall be answered, I've even got maps.

That pretty good, and comprehenisve. I'm almost embarassed that I've missed it. Thanks!

Quote from: S'mon;564925In the backstory of the Judge Dredd character, the Great Atom Wars were started by the USA acquiring what President Booth thought was an impregnable anti-missile shield and going on a worldwide bout of regime change to make the world safe for democracy/get all the oil. The shield turned out not to work as well as they thought. Some kind of strategic miscalculation like that would seem necessary for a nuclear holocaust; I'd suggest that with China rising, a China-US struggle over control of the western Pacific combined with a big miscalculation by one side or both would be the likeliest source of a nuclear holocaust in the next century.

Interesting; I didn't know that. Thanks!

Quote from: Sigmund;564913d101 games put out The Company, which is a great game IMO, but as far as I can tell has not taken off like it should (also IMO).

It's current, it's versatile in the types of characters one can make and run (full-on military all the way to body-guards and spies), and it's BRP-based. What more could ya want?

The only problem with all these BRP games is that they use Openquest, which, God Bless Newt, pales in comparison to MRQII/RQ6.  

After RQ6, any d100 without combat maneuvers is empty.

Quote from: S'mon;564919Compared to Britain, probably the secondmost warlike First World nation (I say First World rather than Developed nation to exclude Russia), Americans:

1. serve more often in the military, from a wider social range
2. Pay soldiers better
3. Possibly do treat female soldiers worse, but US culture has a lot of inter-sex hostility generally
4. Treat veterans *FAR* better.

The last point is most notable. We have no Veterans Administration or military hospitals. It often seems like most of our ex-squaddies can be found sleeping rough on the streets. Our treatment of them is absolutely appalling.

All correct except we aren't the second most warlike nation. We get into the most wars but that is because we liek to think we still have an empire and have an actual place in global politics.
The Swiss still have national service, likewise the Isrealis, who seem to be 1 step down from a fully mobilised population.

We do treat our veterens really really badly though.

The JD exampels are good.

I think there is space for a SciFi Military game as its far enough away from reality and has enough toys. A Drenai/VCs/Starship Troopers. Warhammer kind of has it covered but something with a less extreme background, more a Browncoats vs The Alliance type of deal migh have some legs.