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A recent hunt for a more comprehensive price list led me to several claiming a more historical base. One thing that struck me in these was the dramatic increase in the relative value of weapons and armor. I was a little startled of course but then common sense took over and I recalled many books, documentaries, movies and the like where a sword or a suit of armor was given extremely high regard by the typical citizenry, essentially something out of their reach unless found, given as a gift or whatever.

In D&D (and many others, Im just picking on it due to its popularity.) a Longsword costs 15gp while a complete suit of mail runs 50gp. Look around a bit and you can see that you might trade the Longsword for a few barrels (2gp each) or 15 robes. The suit of armor is about the same value as a 5 locks or 5 bottles of ink.

It does seem odd when you think about it. Of course, I tell myself, its the nature of the typical fantasy RPG setting where adventure is commonplace and therefore the accouterments of adventuring are as well. In your typical game everyone wears a sword while historically someone riding into a hamlet with a yard of steel on their belt was met with concern and awe.

So, do any of you present your games in a more historical manner where this is concerned? Have you increased the prices of such items to give them the sense of rarity and value they deserve or would it change the game in undesirable ways. Or do you disagree with the idea entirely?

Yes, this is nuts. It would be pretty interesting to run a campaign where the economics have some relationship to historical reality, particularly since we borrow so much from medieval history in the assumptions about FRPG social structures and roles.

One way this might work out is that early adventures in a campaign will functionally act like the DCC 'funnel'. I.e., no one can afford good gear, and the main point in going on your first couple of adventures is obtaining enough loot to afford proper arms.

Also, you'd have to be careful in the way you present PC's with foes. If a suit of plate armor is worth a fortune, you shouldn't have people wandering around in it isolated and unprotected; otherwise any thinking player will just murder an NPC and hork his gear. That is, anyone who can afford plate armor will probably have retainers or be part of a powerful group, like a lord's bodyguard, and so be a tough nut to crack.

I guess the funny thing is that D&D weapons & armour prices are often realistic or even cheap (in some editions plate armour is 50-60gp), whereas mundane stuff tends to often have wildly inflated prices. I think this might be because weapons & armour are bought with starting cash, while mundane stuff assumes Gygax's gold rush economy.

Quote from: rgrove0172;1007734A recent hunt for a more comprehensive price list led me to several claiming a more historical base. One thing that struck me in these was the dramatic increase in the relative value of weapons and armor. I was a little startled of course but then common sense took over and I recalled many books, documentaries, movies and the like where a sword or a suit of armor was given extremely high regard by the typical citizenry, essentially something out of their reach unless found, given as a gift or whatever.

It the refined and worked metal that drives up the costs. A halberd doesn't cost as much as a great swords despite doing a similar amount of damage because the greatsword is a solid hunk of steel and a halberd has a foot long blade affixed to a wooden pole.  Often you will find accounts where it just spear heads, and polearm blades stored in the armory. The poles are cut later and joined with the head when needed.

Quote from: rgrove0172;1007734So, do any of you present your games in a more historical manner where this is concerned? Have you increased the prices of such items to give them the sense of rarity and value they deserve or would it change the game in undesirable ways. Or do you disagree with the idea entirely?

As you saw from my previous post, I been using Harn's medieval pricing for a long time now. The thing to keep in mind is that you need to apply to PCs and NPCs alike. The number of NPCs wearing plate should be low and distinctive.

For example look at this list of Medieval NPCs  (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/NPCs%20for%20a%20Medieval%20Setting%20Rev%201.pdf)I wrote for 5th edition. Only the knights have plate armor.

I've never been able to grasp D&D proportions for much of anything. They're unlike what I find in the games I play (or pillage price ideas from) or the research I've done.

Playing TFT & GURPS either with book prices or ones researched, or stolen from Chivalry & Sorcery or Harn etc, or half-invented, though, generally good military weaponry is expensive or very expensive compared to general goods, which both makes sense and is more historical than the basic D&D prices. Peasant weapon/tools (e.g. basic axe, hammer) would be less expensive than a war axe or mace, and those would be less expensive than a sword, although high-quality and decoration can multiply the prices again. New suits of metal armor would be very expensive.

I get the feeling D&D prices were chosen more for game balance reasons (or the mysteries of what Gygax wrote as a suggestion meant to be questioned and changed at will) and the idea of starting out characters with limited resources, than for making a consistent economy.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1007738Yes, this is nuts. It would be pretty interesting to run a campaign where the economics have some relationship to historical reality, particularly since we borrow so much from medieval history in the assumptions about FRPG social structures and roles.

Sorry if this sounds sarcastic but in the end it is only a price list. My opinion why most hobbyists don't use more realistic pricing is because of the work involved. It just enough that it easy to say "fuck it" and use what your core books give you.

As for designers you have tradition in the case of D&D and Pathfinder. So everything else is scaled off of the traditional base price list. As for the rest they are all over the place. Frankly the only system to do it right in terms of balancing gamability and historical accuracy is Harnmaster. In the case of something like Chivalry & Sorcery they follow the historical sources a little too closely in that it has weird gaps and other oddities.

As much of a historical stickler N Robin Crossby was he had an definite flair for making things useful for gaming. When he had to make shit up, he did and made it consistent with the rest of it. Then from there it got hammered and refined by the Harn Community.

Second best is GURPS especially in GURPS low tech. They had to go two rounds on armor pricing and weight but the latest iteration is pretty solid. If you use GURPS as source remember it is about $4 = 1 silver penny. The main issue with GURPS is that there is no unified price list like in Harn.
 



One way this might work out is that early adventures in a campaign will functionally act like the DCC 'funnel'. I.e., no one can afford good gear, and the main point in going on your first couple of adventures is obtaining enough loot to afford proper arms.

Also, you'd have to be careful in the way you present PC's with foes. If a suit of plate armor is worth a fortune, you shouldn't have people wandering around in it isolated and unprotected; otherwise any thinking player will just murder an NPC and hork his gear. That is, anyone who can afford plate armor will probably have retainers or be part of a powerful group, like a lord's bodyguard, and so be a tough nut to crack.

Quote from: S'mon;1007740I guess the funny thing is that D&D weapons & armour prices are often realistic or even cheap (in some editions plate armour is 50-60gp), whereas mundane stuff tends to often have wildly inflated prices. I think this might be because weapons & armour are bought with starting cash, while mundane stuff assumes Gygax's gold rush economy.

My thoughts exactly. The longsword is about right when converted to silver pieces. But all the less expensive items are wildly off. Likely it due to bias of the primary sources that Gygax and Arneson read. Researchers tend to talk about the "sexy" stuff like Plate Armor and broadswords rather than how much a pot of red dye cost or better yet 50' of hemp rope.

Quote from: estar;1007744Also, you'd have to be careful in the way you present PC's with foes. If a suit of plate armor is worth a fortune, you shouldn't have people wandering around in it isolated and unprotected; otherwise any thinking player will just murder an NPC and hork his gear. That is, anyone who can afford plate armor will probably have retainers or be part of a powerful group, like a lord's bodyguard, and so be a tough nut to crack.

If this is the case, the real treasure is not the armor, but the guy inside it. His ransom could be worth many suits of plate!

In my campaign, things are priced in Silver Pennies $, although people generally carry lower-value coins. It costs about 5$ to 30$ to feed yourself for a week, assuming you can't forage for your meals. That upper limit assumes eating well, not luxury, and being far from food sources. A good fighting axe includes a lot of metal and would go for around 200$, so you could feed yourself well for a couple of months for what it costs. You could spend up to 1,000$ for a sword but a 300$ one wouldn't be that hard to find. A suit of mail would cost 300$ or so and the latest fitted plate would run about 2,000$ A trained Destrier is quite expensive for something that has such a short life expectancy at 1,500$ but player-characters and the people they meet rarely have plate or warhorses.

Quote from: saskganesh;1007746If this is the case, the real treasure is not the armor, but the guy inside it. His ransom could be worth many suits of plate!

And really good, fitted plate may not fit someone else. It may be very hard to find a buyer.

I've always thought the weapins and armour of the defeated enemies was far more valuble than any couns they might be carrying.  A couple times I started to gather them up, but I never had a mule to carry it all, and the rest of the group (dm included) didn't want to go that way so I dropped it.

Quote from: Skarg;1007743I've never been able to grasp D&D proportions for much of anything.
...
I get the feeling D&D prices were chosen more for game balance reasons (or the mysteries of what Gygax wrote as a suggestion meant to be questioned and changed at will) and the idea of starting out characters with limited resources, than for making a consistent economy.

Quote from: S'mon;1007740I guess the funny thing is that D&D weapons & armour prices are often realistic or even cheap (in some editions plate armour is 50-60gp), whereas mundane stuff tends to often have wildly inflated prices.

Quote from: estar;1007745My thoughts exactly. The longsword is about right when converted to silver pieces. But all the less expensive items are wildly off. Likely it due to bias of the primary sources that Gygax and Arneson read.

My personal interpretation is that historical research probably had very little to do with the original D&D values. EGG and DA knew that players wanted to go into the dungeons and pull out entire chests of partially-to-mostly gold coins. Thus, that's the amount of coins (which all weigh 1/10 lb, for a convenient resource management sub-game) people got from various endeavors, and the costs of everything else flow from that. I also think (although I doubt it says so in any edition) that the gems in D&D treasure piles are all somewhere between Elizabeth Taylor-wear and Ducktales-esque size-of-your-head style -- because treasure is supposed to be the goal, and this is what dungeoncrawling players might expect.

In other words, I think it is a purely gamist conceit. Or at least started as such. The fact that the price of plate armor increased so dramatically from OD&D to AD&D suggests either someone made some comment about how unrealistic the price of plate was (or at least how many more times the value of plate should be to the value of mail or of swords), or some unknown gamist desire (to make 1st level characters less surviving by ensuring they can't afford plate???).

The mention of highly expensive mundane items is noteworthy. This has been fodder for many a joke about how peasants could never afford to survive in the D&D world. There does seem to be a correspondence between cost and relative value for a dungeon crawler. 10' pole being more expensive than a 10' ladder (presumably made up of two 10' poles) being the most readily notable example.

Quote from: saskganesh;1007746If this is the case, the real treasure is not the armor, but the guy inside it. His ransom could be worth many suits of plate!

It both.

I had parties loot bands of goblins for their crappy short swords and leather armor because it added up to a couple hundred d (silver penny) when it was all said and done. I had parties ransom knights. I had to have the NPCs surrender by throwing up his hands and shouting "I surrender to you and my ransom is X."

Although one guy was a Gregor Clegange type and he they executed. None of the NPCs shed a tear.

Quote from: rgrove0172;1007734So, do any of you present your games in a more historical manner where this is concerned? Have you increased the prices of such items to give them the sense of rarity and value they deserve or would it change the game in undesirable ways. Or do you disagree with the idea entirely?

The times I have tried the more realistic costs have had decent results, but surveys of the players indicated that some of them didn't like it at all and even the ones who did like it preferred cheap and easy access to gear.  So that's what I go with now unless there is significant interest in Keepin' It Real, Yo.

My first TFT campaign regularly had PC parties with wagons used for carrying the possessions, weapons & armor & gear & clothes (and sometimes body parts) of nearly everyone they killed. The attempt to sell wagonloads of bloody damaged used equipment in towns was sometimes pretty funny. Indignant muddy adventurers arguing with indignant shopkeepers about how much used bloody damaged stuff should be.

Or wandering up to the Wizards' Guild and trying to sell rotting body parts as magic ingredients...

I spent several years painstakingly researching 14th century English prices, for everything from roast sparrows to warhorses.

It turned my players into tomb robbers slaughtering goblins for their shitty swords and pathetic spears, because a handful of pennies kept them alive for another week.

Now I'm picturing all the surviving goblins going out to their cars to discover that the passenger windows have been broken and their stereos stolen.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1007790I spent several years painstakingly researching 14th century English prices, for everything from roast sparrows to warhorses.

It turned my players into tomb robbers slaughtering goblins for their shitty swords and pathetic spears, because a handful of pennies kept them alive for another week.

The fear of this is what keeps me from pursuing more realistic prices.  I know me.  It wouldn't take much to send me down that road.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1007790I spent several years painstakingly researching 14th century English prices, for everything from roast sparrows to warhorses.

It turned my players into tomb robbers slaughtering goblins for their shitty swords and pathetic spears, because a handful of pennies kept them alive for another week.

You still have that price list by any chance? :D

Classic Hollywood westerns were not actually documentaries of what it was like to live in the frontier west.

For the same reasons, I don't really care if the price of 50' of rope is historically accurate in my D&D game.

Quote from: EOTB;1007812Classic Hollywood westerns were not actually documentaries of what it was like to live in the frontier west.

They're not? I swear every time I enter a general store anywhere west of the Mississippi, some hooligan makes fun of me for purchasing 'Sody pop,' and after the inevitable showdown I have to ride off into the sunset to reinforce that the civilized world is no place for the violence (and raw sexuality, which threatens my friends Joe and Marian's fidelity) inherent in my manliness.

I've never understood why people think prices in a D&D fantasy world would be anything like historical medieval prices.

I mean, for one, magic would make the economy vastly different, even if the implications of spells are not always realized (for instance, the real world, supposed zombies have been used for cheap labor, so why wouldn't it be in worlds where zombies actually existed?) . Fantasy worlds also tend to be sparsely populated with a lot of wilderness, while most of medieval europe was settled, with forests only being preserved for hunting purposes (at least in England which is what people always seem to think of Medieval Europe).  You also have several races that mine metal at rates probably not possible until the modern era.

I mean it's okay to criticize a D&D economy. But at the same time it should never be criticized for not mimicking history, because that would be even worse.

Quote from: JeremyR;1007815I've never understood why people think prices in a D&D fantasy world would be anything like historical medieval prices.

It's going to be entirely personal where people want to draw the fantasy verisimilitude line. Castles, of all things, make virtually no sense (at least looking like real world castles do) once your world has a certain critical mass of flying creatures. Do you get rid of castles from your medieval fantasy milieu?

But, in the end, I agree. D&D prices should be what works best for the kind of D&D gaming you intend to do, no more, no less.

Quote from: estar;1007745My thoughts exactly. The longsword is about right when converted to silver pieces. But all the less expensive items are wildly off. Likely it due to bias of the primary sources that Gygax and Arneson read. Researchers tend to talk about the "sexy" stuff like Plate Armor and broadswords rather than how much a pot of red dye cost or better yet 50' of hemp rope.

If you really want a fun and surprising price, instead of red dye take a pot of blue paint. Ultramarine Blue (the name means "blue from beyond the sea") was made from lapis lazuli sourced from particular mines in Afghanistan. It was literally more valuable than gold! The reason the Virgin Mary is traditionally depicted in a blue robe is that the ultramarine paint used was the most expensive pigment available to the artists, who chose that colour to honour her.

Red dye cam from several sources, such as red madder, so not so expensive.

I sincerely doubt Dave or Gary did ANY research on prices, and priced things in a way that worked for the game.

The famous "Extractibus Ex Rectum Tuum" research method.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1007818It's going to be entirely personal where people want to draw the fantasy verisimilitude line. Castles, of all things, make virtually no sense (at least looking like real world castles do) once your world has a certain critical mass of flying creatures. Do you get rid of castles from your medieval fantasy milieu?

Our castles had repeating ballistae (a real thing) in quad mounts on the turret tops...

Quote from: CRKrueger;1007807You still have that price list by any chance? :D

Somewhere in the depths of my storage compartment, yes.  It was too fucking much work to throw away.

.... that goes in my book, doesn't it...

.... or in a separate PDF like Pundy's "weekly specials."  Sell it for two bucks... hmmm......

I have come to realize that adherance to genre conventions is more important to me in many games than strict historical accuracy. This is especially the case in games like D&D where heroes can easilly find more wealth than they can carry away. The costs of weapons and armour matter because they are significant resources for PCs, the cost of a mug of ale or loaf of bread is not generally significant.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1007826Our castles had repeating ballistae (a real thing) in quad mounts on the turret tops...

The Keep in Keep on the Borderlands is topped with 6 ballistia and 4 catapults. + archers and crossbowmen.

I have always though spells like "Passwall" and "Rock to Mud" were a bigger threat to castles than flying creatures.

Quote from: Omega;1007845The Keep in Keep on the Borderlands is topped with 6 ballistia and 4 catapults. + archers and crossbowmen.

Yes, but are they in quad mounts and arranged like WW2 German antiaircraft batteries? :D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1007856Yes, but are they in quad mounts and arranged like WW2 German antiaircraft batteries? :D

88mm balistae?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1007827.... that goes in my book, doesn't it...

Promises, promises. :p

Quote from: EOTB;1007812Classic Hollywood westerns were not actually documentaries of what it was like to live in the frontier west.

For the same reasons, I don't really care if the price of 50' of rope is historically accurate in my D&D game.

Correct answer.

In some cases, having the prices of certain goods out of whack can be the setup of a scenario (Why is this particular item so much more expensive in this town?). Another thing to keep in mind is that many of those doing the selling might have different rates for their regular customers and another for outsiders and another for undesirables. In the classic western Buchanan Rides Alone, the local border town charges the traveling gunman for hire $10 and up (a lot of money back then) for everything from a single meal, to a room for the night to a bottle of whisky. They don't like Buchanan, don't trust him, and don't want him in their town -and charge him extortionist prices to get him to leave.

In other words, if I mess with the standard price list it's to plant seeds for the campaign. I don't give a third of a flying fuck if a large shield didn't really cost 10 gold pieces in 13th century England because the campaigns I play have Jack Shit to do with 13th century England.

I just make any old shit up because dragons and fireballs.

No really I don't, but it seems that is how others make their choices.

@elfdart.  

You are saying that things out of the ordinary aren't mistakes they are clues.  

I don't think you understand how good you've got it if that is true.  First you have to be, precise, consitant and have a reason for everything.  Then you have to be an expert communicator, then you have to have long term players and a long term game so they can establish a history and track record for your game, they also have to be expert communicators.  Then they have to be observant and decutive enough to notice and note when things are out of the ordanary.  Honestly just having an ordinary is a major achievement.  

How can rhe players know they are being ripped off if they don't know how much stuff costs?

Quote from: estar;1007744Sorry if this sounds sarcastic but in the end it is only a price list. My opinion why most hobbyists don't use more realistic pricing is because of the work involved. It just enough that it easy to say "fuck it" and use what your core books give you.

As for designers you have tradition in the case of D&D and Pathfinder. So everything else is scaled off of the traditional base price list. As for the rest they are all over the place. Frankly the only system to do it right in terms of balancing gamability and historical accuracy is Harnmaster. In the case of something like Chivalry & Sorcery they follow the historical sources a little too closely in that it has weird gaps and other oddities.

As much of a historical stickler N Robin Crossby was he had an definite flair for making things useful for gaming. When he had to make shit up, he did and made it consistent with the rest of it. Then from there it got hammered and refined by the Harn Community.

Second best is GURPS especially in GURPS low tech. They had to go two rounds on armor pricing and weight but the latest iteration is pretty solid. If you use GURPS as source remember it is about $4 = 1 silver penny. The main issue with GURPS is that there is no unified price list like in Harn.
 



One way this might work out is that early adventures in a campaign will functionally act like the DCC 'funnel'. I.e., no one can afford good gear, and the main point in going on your first couple of adventures is obtaining enough loot to afford proper arms.

Also, you'd have to be careful in the way you present PC's with foes. If a suit of plate armor is worth a fortune, you shouldn't have people wandering around in it isolated and unprotected; otherwise any thinking player will just murder an NPC and hork his gear. That is, anyone who can afford plate armor will probably have retainers or be part of a powerful group, like a lord's bodyguard, and so be a tough nut to crack.

Let them scavenge the plate armor.

Then charge them half the base value to be refitted, and oh by the way, did you pay extra to have the embellishments changed? Better hope he didn't have friends.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1007900Then charge them half the base value to be refitted, and oh by the way, did you pay extra to have the embellishments changed? Better hope he didn't have friends.

Or enemies who recognize his armor.

Quote from: Headless;1007899@elfdart.  

You are saying that things out of the ordinary aren't mistakes they are clues.  

I don't think you understand how good you've got it if that is true.  First you have to be, precise, consitant and have a reason for everything.  Then you have to be an expert communicator, then you have to have long term players and a long term game so they can establish a history and track record for your game, they also have to be expert communicators.  Then they have to be observant and decutive enough to notice and note when things are out of the ordanary.  Honestly just having an ordinary is a major achievement.  

How can rhe players know they are being ripped off if they don't know how much stuff costs?

It's relatively easy to do this with things the pcs pay for often - if a room for the night is usually 5 silver, most will pick up on it if you charge them 10 gold.

Quote from: Bren;1007907Or enemies who recognize his armor.

Absolutely.

Loot is a plot hook if you want it to be.

Quote from: S'mon;1007919It's relatively easy to do this with things the pcs pay for often - if a room for the night is usually 5 silver, most will pick up on it if you charge them 10 gold.

I wouldn't know if that was signal or noise.  Of my 2 current DMs one dosen't have a master price list.  The other has 2.  So if I noticed at all I would think I one game, he just thinks we've got too much money and is trying to get it away from us.  And in the second game I would think he couldmn't find the first list he found the second.

That's if I noticed at all.  I don't role play to manage money.  

I am just saying that base line is hard to get.  If you have one you are lucky you have a group that lasts that long.  Lucky to have a DM who puts enough prep in so that prices are consistent, really luck if you have one that has prices rrspond to supply and demand.  And lucky to have the same quality of player.

You also can just tell the player what his character knows: "the innkeeper charges you 10 GP for the night, which is about 20 times more than a fair price at a reasonable inn."  

No prior experience or history needed.

"Historically accurate prices" and "Fantasy setting" are not things that fit together usually.

As of last check the real world did not have a race of short people mining and making tons of weapons, armour and other impliments and selling them. nore other races for that matter. Nor does the real world have the obviously VERY mineral and metal rich lands that many fantasy worlds do. And people werent beinging in the massive treasure hauls on a regular basis like in so many fantasy worlds.

Yes. I think some of the prices are a bit off. But AD&D and some modules had guidelines for alternate or even regional pricing and AD&D had suggestions for adjusting prices or coin value based on the influx of coin from adventurers.

Well one thing that no one has brought up it that most games don't really play with the idea of varying quality's of weapons and armor. Which is rather important substandard arms have pretty always existed and usually are notably cheaper.  
But in games like dnd if it's not magic , masterwork or made from A special material it's all the same.
Personally I tend to not worry about historical accuracy and try more for making my game A consistent economy that works and makes sense within the confines of my setting.  

Quote from: DavetheLost;1007850I have always though spells like "Passwall" and "Rock to Mud" were a bigger threat to castles than flying creatures.

And dimension door and disintegrate and ethereal jaunt and floating disk and A fighter who brought enough clean underwear and we aren't even up to the corner cases yet.

Dark Albion uses researched historically-accurate prices.

A very basic medieval sword could be as cheap as 6 pennies. While the cheapest leather armor would cost around 50 pennies.  A full plate mail would cost about 3400 pennies.

How much is a cow on that scale Pundit?  

Does your very cheep sword differ from a good sword?

Leather armor? Isn't that more Hollywood fantasy?

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1008505Leather armor? Isn't that more Hollywood fantasy?

Yeah, I got the impression from Youtube* there's almost no evidence of medieval European leather armour? Seems to be either linen chain or plate.

*Shadiversity has done a lot on this eg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uWDCDJD_4w
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODS7ksbBRuE

Also Metatron
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXcGXTtsgmE

Leather armor as it's portrayed in typical fantasy RPGs probably didn't exist. However, leather could've been used to make lamellar armor and was certainly used as backing or covering for other lesser used armors, like splint, scale, coat of plates, and jazerant. Gambeson, mail, and plate were the most common types though.

Quote from: estar;1007745My thoughts exactly. The longsword is about right when converted to silver pieces. But all the less expensive items are wildly off. Likely it due to bias of the primary sources that Gygax and Arneson read. Researchers tend to talk about the "sexy" stuff like Plate Armor and broadswords rather than how much a pot of red dye cost or better yet 50' of hemp rope.

Well, game system authors do, at the least.

For my part, I've done a hideous amount of work over many decades and (at this point) nearly a hundred different texts and sources, because I wanted to be as anally complete as I could.  And there are a few things to keep in mind if you're wishing for a relatively accurate "medieval price list."

There's a tendency to make eyepoppingly broad assumptions of what "medieval" means.  Discussing 13th century Scotland, a tiny impoverished nation barely beyond a subsistence economy, in the same breath as the glittering and sophisticated northern Italian city-states of the same time period? Comparing the 14th century Hanse cities to the vast Russian steppe, just barely in the Iron Age? Heck, never mind comparing medieval Europe at any point to medieval CHINA, pretty much at any point.  

Quite aside from the chuckleheadedness of drawing any parallel between prices in Constantinople in 1050 to Alexandria in 1150 to Genoa in 1250 to London in 1350? You couldn't make an accurate table for the United States just within the last fifty years. I bought my first computer in 1986 for $1000, and laughed at how cheaply I got it compared to other options. The one I own now I bought for $300 five years ago, it was the cheapest desktop model Walmart sold, and of course it's many orders of magnitude more powerful than that poor Atari 520 ST.  (In 1966, a computer was a giant installation costing millions of dollars, and you could no more get one retail than purchase an armored regiment over the counter.)  In that same time period, my weekly grocery bill not quite trebled.[/COLOR]

Quote from: RPGPundit;1008482A very basic medieval sword could be as cheap as 6 pennies.

I wondered about this so I traced it down.

As it turns out that figure is widely reported in this list of prices (http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html). Which is all over the internet under a variety of URLs. The prices of 6d for a cheap peasant sword is cited from Everyday Life in Medieval England. Specifically page 174.

As it turns out page 174 is accessible through Google Books (https://books.google.com/books?id=i8jL0-F82RIC&q=page+174#v=onepage&q=page%20174&f=false).

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1957[/ATTACH]

As a point of information a yardland (or a virgate) is consider to be 1/4 of a hide or land or roughly 30 acres. It a rough measurement because the hide is not only a unit of area but a unit of productivity. A hide of moorland covered considerably more area than a hide of good bottomland for crops. But a hide appears to be have averaged out to be about 120 acres.

So the text in Everyday Life has a citation which is.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1958[/ATTACH]

So what that mean. It took me a bit of digging to figure it out. Apparently there is a collection of medieval documents at the British Library called the Stowe Manuscripts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stowe_manuscripts).. The citation refer to document 880 folio (?) 29.

Unfortunately I can't find a digitized version of that portion of the manuscripts. I did find a index (http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?dscnt=1&doc=IAMS040-001953725&displayMode=full&dstmp=1511191752499&vid=IAMS_VU2&ct=display&tabs=detailsTab&fromLogin=true).

Number 29 is part of a series labeled as

Quoteff. 28-69 passim Accompts: Rentals of various estates in co. Staff.: 14th-16th centt.

So likely there is entry where some peasant died and paid heirot (estate tax) or rent that included his sword worth 6 pennies.

How this relates to your campaign?

It doesn't directly. The problem with historical research is that the record is too fragmented for stuff like price lists. And different based on the specific decade, and region. My view if you want to do a historical price list is to learn the relative value of goods. This far more constant due to the slow progression of technology. Then come up with a base-line currency (pennies, groats, florins, whatever) assign a price to a baseline item. Then using the relative value of various items start assigning prices to other things.

For example the income of 1 hide of land (120 acre of good farmland) was generally expected to be 1 pound (240d) per year. At one point it was ordered that for every 5 hide of lands owned, one man at arms was expected to be equipped and sent to the king's service.

Land values and productivity is a good place to start in medieval times because land was THE store of value for people at the time.

Getting a sense of these relative values is the key to coming up with a historical price list if that the way you want to go in your campaign. I stick with the Harn price list as a baseline not because the number are more accurate than any other arbitrary source. But because it got the ratio down right for so many different goods.

As for the 6d peasant sword, it could be several things. It could be a piece of pig iron beaten into a sword shape as part of an apprentice day's work. It could be a used item with wear and tear. In general the average swords is expected to cost about a pound or more specifically the income that a single hide of land produces for a year.

People forget that used goods were a big deal in Medieval times as things too so long to make.  Clothes went through numerous cycles of alteration to the point where they were so worn that the only thing one could to use it as scrap to patch other newer pieces of clothing.

The important thing to me and my players has always been suspension of disbelief. While salvaging a sword from a battle site or a ruin won't threaten SoD, the six penny sword would. Someone who salvaged an old, rusty sword and was desperate for cash might, of course, sell it  very cheaply. The basis of my price lists was always "how many loaves of bread could you get with the money you are spending on this (whatever we were talking about)" and this has always allowed SoD. I do appreciate the work of researchers and have made some adjustments because of interesting stuff found out by research, but no six penny swords.

Quote from: estar;1008610The problem with historical research is that the record is too fragmented for stuff like price lists. And different based on the specific decade, and region.

Quite.

A lot of what we think we know about medieval technology and economics comes from imperfect sources that often are imperfectly interpreted.  A famous example is the "cog" ship-type; before the ruins of one was found in Germany a bit over fifty years ago, our only source for what these looked like were old coins and seals, which suffered from artistic license about as much as you can imagine.  Well into the 17th century, much of what we know about the prices of household goods come from estate records, where the values of goods were itemized for resale.

(Imagine, as a hypothetical, what a 30th century researcher would have to say about our "modern day" prices based on 1990s circulars from the local discount good-stuff-cheap chain.)

Beyond that, I've got a rant on assumptions about professional totals in a popular gaming essay (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/10/medieval-demographics-done-right.html), the gist of which is that too many gamers seize on a single source that may not be accurate, may be superseded by better research, may be edited or incomplete, and may not be what they think it purports to be.

But ultimately, look.  I'm a realism bug, always have been, always will be.  I like to get things accurate.  But not every group swings that way, and some just want to plunk down their gold pieces for stuff and not worry about it.  It's not my cup of tea, but if it's yours, fair enough.

Quote from: Ravenswing;1008651Beyond that, I've got a rant on assumptions about professional totals in a popular gaming essay (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/10/medieval-demographics-done-right.html), the gist of which is that too many gamers seize on a single source that may not be accurate, may be superseded by better research, may be edited or incomplete, and may not be what they think it purports to be.

I took my own stab at the raw data with Fantasy Demographics (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Fantasy%20Demographics%20Version%201.pdf). But like you mentioned in your post there are an awful lot of goldsmiths. I have the Southhamption book you mentioned and it is on my to do list before I make a version 2.0 of Fantasy Demographics. Another thing I am considering for 2.0 is a shorter rural list of what would be found in a manorial or market village.

However overall I am pleased with the methodology even if the number are not quite right yet.

Quote from: Ravenswing;1008651But ultimately, look.  I'm a realism bug, always have been, always will be.  I like to get things accurate.  But not every group swings that way, and some just want to plunk down their gold pieces for stuff and not worry about it.  It's not my cup of tea, but if it's yours, fair enough.

My object is to be realistic but also approachable gaming wise. Which is why everything is priced in silver on my lists. Only one currency to worry about. In-game there are Farthings (1/4d) Silver Marks (240d), Gold Crowns (320d), and Gold Pennies (20d). But I use in them in the waythat gems and jewelry are traditionally used.  A special monetary treasure that players can find or earn.

Quote from: S'mon;1008511Yeah, I got the impression from Youtube* there's almost no evidence of medieval European leather armour? Seems to be either linen chain or plate.

*Shadiversity has done a lot on this eg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uWDCDJD_4w
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODS7ksbBRuE

Also Metatron
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXcGXTtsgmE

Another one that's quite good is Knyght errant (https://www.youtube.com/user/neosonic66/videos) his vidieos are quite intersting.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1008505Leather armor? Isn't that more Hollywood fantasy?

Well yes and no you start to get of in to that whole did it did it not area.
For example there was Cuir bouilli or so called boiled leather ( it's not truly boiled but it is cooked in water) which was used in at least some armor.
Then you have the whole issue of common mans armor because so little of it has survived and there are also problems with artistic depiction.
A fairly good video on the subject is this one by Knyght errant is Helmets for the Common Soldier (+ 4 Demo Videos)* (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBrGYGk4Q-Y).

*note the video is not specifically about leather armor.

Note2 he also has several interesting videos about franken armor.

(is faintly amused at the notion that Wikipedia is an unreliable source where the history of arms and armor is concerned, but that guys looking for YouTube clicks, by contrast, ARE reliable.)

Quote from: Ravenswing;1008859(is faintly amused at the notion that Wikipedia is an unreliable source where the history of arms and armor is concerned, but that guys looking for YouTube clicks, by contrast, ARE reliable.)

Your lack of faith does you no credit.

(Seriously, it is perfectly possible to evaluate credible & non-credible sources if you watch enough of them.)

I'd rather evaluate credible and non-credible sources through the footnotes and cites.  Hey, look, Wikipedia has them.

What YouTube has, by contrast, are people who seem reasonable and credible, and those who look and/or sound like goofs.  The degree to which someone knows his or her shit has little to do with production values or one's skill as a public speaker, especially when we're talking about several hundred year old historical fact.

(EDIT: And there's another bit where I appreciate Wikipedia -- disclosure, I'm a senior editor there with nearly 50,000 edits and a dozen years tenure -- that there are people out there fact checking.  I post something on Wikipedia, dozens of people are looking it over waiting to pounce if I get it wrong.  I put up a YouTube video, it's all me, and all you have going for deciding whether I'm HUA or not is the comments section.)

In addition, most of the videos I have looked at on most subjects are too long and too tedious.* I can read much faster than the guy or gal on the video can intelligibly speak and it is much easier to skim past the dull parts of an article in print, Wikipedia or otherwise.


* On the other hand the one on how to relight a water heater pilot light and the one on how to use a binoculars to view an eclipse were really good and reasonably short (5 minutes or less) and the visuals were helpful.

Quote from: Ravenswing;1008866I'd rather evaluate credible and non-credible sources through the footnotes and cites.  Hey, look, Wikipedia has them.

The links I provided do normally cite sources, often in the text below the video. Scholagladiatoria certainly does.
A Youtube video is not inherently less reliable than text. There are plenty of clickbait Youtube channels, there are plenty of informative ones too.

In ACKS I certainly made an effort to have plausible prices for our various goods. B/X was the starting point for most ACKS prices but I then checked them against historical references and adjusted.  For medieval prices, I assumed 1 silver piece in ACKS was worth approximately 1 English silver penny. For classical prices, I assumed 1sp was worth approximately 1 drachma.

But the problem with this method is that the price list for a game is fixed while the price of goods in history varied widely over time and distance. Often price lists found in books are from dates that can span hundreds of years and entirely different economic regions. Roman Republican prices and Roman Imperial prices are different by an order of magnitude. Prices went up as the amount of gold and silver in circulation increased (usually through introducing debased coins), and went up during periods when grain was costly; they went down when solid currency was used and when grain was abundant. To overcome the time-and-distance problem, I set the value of grain at a fixed amount of in-game currency and then re-balanced the prices of other goods relative to the price of grain.

So ACKS pricing formula approximates to (in medieval terms) "1 silver piece is worth 1 English silver penny when 1 quarter of wheat costs 3 shillings."

There's an Economics issue of AXIOMS that goes into a deep dive on all of the above. Happy to share with interested parties.

Something that's common to many a medieval economics text is a preface either attempting to explain the dizzying array of then-prevalent coinage and weights, along with disclaimers that scholars debate hotly how much such coinage was worth and what such "standards" weighed.

Quote from: amacris;1008947So ACKS pricing formula approximates to (in medieval terms) "1 silver piece is worth 1 English silver penny when 1 quarter of wheat costs 3 shillings."

This illustrates perfectly that what important are the ratios as the exact numbers were all over the place in time and location.

Question:is the quarter of wheat 500 pounds or 1/4 of a ton?

Quote from: Ravenswing;1008958Something that's common to many a medieval economics text is a preface either attempting to explain the dizzying array of then-prevalent coinage and weights, along with disclaimers that scholars debate hotly how much such coinage was worth and what such "standards" weighed.

I explain it about the weight of precious metal in a coin and the ratio of gold to silver. And sometimes the total amount of gold or silver in the economy. For example if a kingdom found a rich gold mine it will cause inflation to occur over time. And if the supply of silver doesn't increase the ratio between silver and gold will also decrease.

That it gets complicated because debased coins can be minted with less precious metals. Or coins from the same mint can fluctuate in precious content Both can damage the reputation of the coin which causes it to lose value despite what it says on its face.

The trick to make a money system that feel historical for a RPG is to pick a standard and go from there. For me is it is the fact that 20 silver will equal one gold. One pound weight of silver will make 240 silver pennies. Thus making 1 pound of gold worth 4,800d.

Quote from: estar;1008969Question:is the quarter of wheat 500 pounds or 1/4 of a ton?

Probably neither.

Quote from: estar;1008969Question:is the quarter of wheat 500 pounds or 1/4 of a ton?

Quarter of an acre/hectare/low-rent's season's yield?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1008997Probably neither.

Amacris had something in mind hence my question.

Oh.  I was just commenting that medieval measures often don't neatly convert to modern.

Quote from: estar;1009004Amacris had something in mind hence my question.

Specific assumptions:
- 1 silver piece equals 1 silver penny
- 1 quarter of wheat is worth 3 shillings, 4 pence (that is, 40 pence, 40sp, or 4gp)
- 1 quarter of wheat equals 8 bushels of 60lbs  
- Each acre of average land yields on average 1 quarter of wheat

The price was selected from the Assize of Bread and Ale.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1009011Oh.  I was just commenting that medieval measures often don't neatly convert to modern.

True, but on the other hand medieval measure often had even ratios with themselves. So while we may not know if a quarter is 500 lbs or 512 lbs, we do know four of them made up a ton. For a campaign or gaming product it would be good enough my view to define a base value and just go from there.

Quote from: estar;1009015True, but on the other hand medieval measure often had even ratios with themselves. So while we may not know if a quarter is 500 lbs or 512 lbs, we do know four of them made up a ton. For a campaign or gaming product it would be good enough my view to define a base value and just go from there.

Do you have AXIOMS Issue 3, on Economics? It nerds out on all of this, with analysis like:

QuoteA typical peasant family manages 30 acres, with 20 acres farmed and 10 acres fallow each year. Each year, each of the 20 farmed acres is seeded with 2 bushels of grain. Each farmed acre then yields 10 bushels of grain. 2 bushels must be set aside for next year's seed, so the result is a 4:1 yield of (10 – 2) 8 bushels per acre, or 1 quarter per acre. Therefore, 20 acres yields 160 bushels or 20 quarters of grain. A quarter of grain costs 4gp in ACKS. Therefore, the peasant's farmland produces (20 acres x 1 quarter/acre x 4gp/quarter) 80gp per year.

In addition, the family manages 1 ox, 3 cows, 1 pig, and 32 sheep. Each ox and cow requires 1.33 acres of pasture. The pig requires no acreage, as it is fed from fallen nuts and farm refuse. One sheep may graze in each ox or cow's acreage; the other sheep require 0.167 acres of pasture each. The peasant family therefore requires [(1 x 1.33) + (3 x 1.33) +  ({32-4} x 0.167)] 10 acres of pasture for its livestock – the same 10 acres it leaves fallow each year.

And...

QuoteHistorically, meat has been estimated at 5 to 6 ½ times as expensive as wheat on a caloric basis. Since a 1,000-calorie loaf of bread costs 0.69cp, we should expect a 1,000-calorie serving of meat to cost 3.45cp to 4.49cp. Mutton and beef have about 1,000 calories per pound, so they should cost about 3.45cp to 4.49cp.  Chevon and pork have about 650 calories per pound, so they should cost 2.25cp to 2.93cp per pound.  
In these rules, we assume that beef and mutton costs 4cp per pound, chevon and pork costs 3cp per pound, and other meat costs 2cp per pound.

Here's an article (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11wKlamxx_ylAYGiFidA9tlklWsKcjDG7/view?usp=sharing) I did some time ago on cost of living, prices, coinage and economy - I may have shared before when this topic has come up. It's based on ancient rather than medieval models, but some may find it useful

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1009011Oh.  I was just commenting that medieval measures often don't neatly convert to modern.

Indeed, whose ton?  One of my favorite and more valuable books is Medieval Trade in the Mediterranean World, written in the 50s by Robert Lopez and Irving Raymond (which you can get on Amazon, if not cheaply).  It's entirely comprised of translated contemporaneous documents, which among other things shows the great sophistication of commerce, mercantile law and trade even as early as the tenth century.  One of the documents is a long 13th century petition from the Genoese envoy to the Byzantine emperor asking for restitution in several dozen itemized cases where Genoese merchants were cheated or robbed in the Empire, with marginal answers from the Imperial government.  A common element is dispute over weights, where (say) a Genoese "ton" was more than a Nicean "ton" or a Thessalonikan "ton."

A level of detail I wager few gamers would want to touch.

Quote from: amacris;1009016Do you have AXIOMS Issue 3, on Economics? It nerds out on all of this, with analysis like:And...

Got it and reading it, thanks for the heads up.

Quote from: Bren;1007884I just make any old shit up because dragons and fireballs.

No really I don't, but it seems that is how others make their choices.

It does have the advantage of sparing pedantic, fatuous know-it-alls from humiliation when even the dimmest players realize that in the words of Jim Mora "You think you know, but you don't know -and you never will".

Quote from: Headless;1007899@elfdart.  

You are saying that things out of the ordinary aren't mistakes they are clues.

I'm saying they CAN be clues if you as the DM want it that way. No DM can plan out everything and even if they could, no plan survives contact with the enemy. I pretty much stick to the 2E equipment guide for weights and prices but some things aren't covered and there are a few cases where I read it wrong and quoted the wrong price, or I used prices from other editions of (A)D&D by mistake. Usually I can correct errors but in some cases, I just roll with it. In chainmail suits cost 75 g.p. in the book but I fuck up and quote the price for banded (200 g.p.) and the players react before I catch it, I can just make up a reason the armor is so expensive at this market:

"The local lord has hired and equipped twenty new men-at-arms."

If the players want to find out why, I have seeds for a new scenario. If they decide to go to another town to buy the armor, I also have the setup for an adventure.

QuoteI don't think you understand how good you've got it if that is true.  First you have to be, precise, consitant and have a reason for everything.  Then you have to be an expert communicator, then you have to have long term players and a long term game so they can establish a history and track record for your game, they also have to be expert communicators.  Then they have to be observant and decutive enough to notice and note when things are out of the ordanary.  Honestly just having an ordinary is a major achievement.  

You can't find consistency or precision in real life when it comes to buying things. For example, there are two gas stations close to my house owned by the same company. Both are almost identical and are just off the highway, yet one charges 10 cents more per gallon than the other, less than two miles away. There can be any number of reasons for this.

The same can apply to a made-up setting.

QuoteHow can rhe players know they are being ripped off if they don't know how much stuff costs?

Even new players should have a good idea, at least from buying their starting gear. This should also let them know when they're getting a bargain, too. For example, what if chainmail is much cheaper? Again, inquiring minds might double check to see if the armor is used or damaged or of bad quality. Or someone might have just unloaded a bunch of chainmail for some other reason, driving prices down.

Quote from: Headless;1007939I wouldn't know if that was signal or noise.  Of my 2 current DMs one dosen't have a master price list.  The other has 2.  So if I noticed at all I would think I one game, he just thinks we've got too much money and is trying to get it away from us.  And in the second game I would think he couldmn't find the first list he found the second.

That's if I noticed at all.  I don't role play to manage money.  

I am just saying that base line is hard to get.  If you have one you are lucky you have a group that lasts that long.  Lucky to have a DM who puts enough prep in so that prices are consistent, really luck if you have one that has prices rrspond to supply and demand.  And lucky to have the same quality of player.

Let your players help you!

When they start asking why donkeys in this town cost as much as warhorses (roughly a twenty-fold increase), keep quiet and let them try to figure it out. Sometimes their answers are better than anything you could come up with, so steal their ideas and roll with them. Let them sow the seeds for their own adventures.

Quote from: Elfdart;1009191Let your players help you!

When they start asking why donkeys in this town cost as much as warhorses (roughly a twenty-fold increase), keep quiet and let them try to figure it out. Sometimes their answers are better than anything you could come up with, so steal their ideas and roll with them. Let them sow the seeds for their own adventures.

Sure.  I still don't think you are understanding what I am getting at.  I'm saying you are operating on a whole other level man.  And its not easy to get there.  It takes time, the right players, the right DM and the right game, but most of all time.  

Most people done ask about the reasons for things in the real world. In an imaginary one if people even consider the question they will answer for themselves(with out ever asking the DM for some strange reason) either

a) becuase reasons.
b) deus ex machina
c) Plot twist!
d) they eat fuck you! Cause thats what they eat!

All of which boil down to, its just a game.  

If they ask the question out loud and get one of those answers from the DM, then they don't ask the question any more.  Ever.

Quote from: Elfdart;1009186It does have the advantage of sparing pedantic, fatuous know-it-alls from humiliation when even the dimmest players realize that in the words of Jim Mora "You think you know, but you don't know -and you never will".

Oh a  sports quote. Wow you really proved your point this time. :rolleyes:

For myself, I would ten times rather haul out "Oops, sorry, I fucked up" than to give my players the impression that I'm a capricious jackass who'll make up lying BS to cover my ass.

Because if something really inexplicable happens, I want them to be able to TRUST the sort of thing that happened in a game nearly 25 years ago now:

Andrew (shaking his head and muttering with exasperation to the group): I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense!

Me (steepling my fingers and tendering him a level stare):  You're right.  It doesn't.

Andrew and players (all looking at me, furrowing their brows, and starting to collectively think very hard): .....

Quote from: Headless;1008487How much is a cow on that scale Pundit?  

Does your very cheep sword differ from a good sword?

A cow, in the countryside, is worth about 1440 eggs.

I considered making cheap swords more easy to break or something like that, but decided against it.  The difference is really mostly aesthetic. A knight wouldn't want to be caught wearing a shitty-looking cheap sword of the sort an impoverished mercenary might use.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1008505Leather armor? Isn't that more Hollywood fantasy?

Leather Armor is indeed mostly inaccurate.

That's why in Lion & Dragon I get rid of it.

The Armors available in Lion & Dragon are Padded Jack, Jack Splint, Brigandine (the closest thing to leather), Hauberk, Hauberk & Plate, and Full Plate.

Quote from: Ravenswing;1008551Well, game system authors do, at the least.

For my part, I've done a hideous amount of work over many decades and (at this point) nearly a hundred different texts and sources, because I wanted to be as anally complete as I could.  And there are a few things to keep in mind if you're wishing for a relatively accurate "medieval price list."

There's a tendency to make eyepoppingly broad assumptions of what "medieval" means.  Discussing 13th century Scotland, a tiny impoverished nation barely beyond a subsistence economy, in the same breath as the glittering and sophisticated northern Italian city-states of the same time period? Comparing the 14th century Hanse cities to the vast Russian steppe, just barely in the Iron Age? Heck, never mind comparing medieval Europe at any point to medieval CHINA, pretty much at any point.  

Quite aside from the chuckleheadedness of drawing any parallel between prices in Constantinople in 1050 to Alexandria in 1150 to Genoa in 1250 to London in 1350? You couldn't make an accurate table for the United States just within the last fifty years. I bought my first computer in 1986 for $1000, and laughed at how cheaply I got it compared to other options. The one I own now I bought for $300 five years ago, it was the cheapest desktop model Walmart sold, and of course it's many orders of magnitude more powerful than that poor Atari 520 ST.  (In 1966, a computer was a giant installation costing millions of dollars, and you could no more get one retail than purchase an armored regiment over the counter.)  In that same time period, my weekly grocery bill not quite trebled.[/COLOR]

This is also correct, as medieval prices varied wildly from location and era.  For Lion & Dragon, I tried my best to model prices on the averages for England between about 1350 to 1490.  There were of course some areas where I had to really speculate, as information is far from comprehensive.

Quote from: estar;1008610As for the 6d peasant sword, it could be several things. It could be a piece of pig iron beaten into a sword shape as part of an apprentice day's work. It could be a used item with wear and tear. In general the average swords is expected to cost about a pound or more specifically the income that a single hide of land produces for a year.

I put the price of the sort of sword a decent mercenary or a low-income knight at about 18p. Swords of very high craftsmanship (for example, swords made by some master weaponsmith at Sheffield) could cost around 8L, and imported swords of Iberian make could be as much as 16L.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1009628A cow, in the countryside, is worth about 1440 eggs.

I considered making cheap swords more easy to break or something like that, but decided against it.  The difference is really mostly aesthetic. A knight wouldn't want to be caught wearing a shitty-looking cheap sword of the sort an impoverished mercenary might use.

Quality is far more than just aesthetics. Making it look nicer doesn't mean it won't break. Yes, better made swords will usually look nicer, but that's because of the skill of the bladesmith AND the quality of materials used. Cheap swords made by less-skilled smiths with lower quality steel should absolutely have a higher chance of breaking, no matter how they look. Fatal flaws like chipping, cracks, dimpling, poor heat treatment, etc. all make a HUGE difference in how a sword functions and whether or not it will break. Cheap, poorly-made blades can always be polished up and embellished to make them look good, but they will still have a much higher chance of failing than a well-made blade that doesn't look all that good.

Quote from: Ravenswing;1008551Well, game system authors do, at the least.

For my part, I've done a hideous amount of work over many decades and (at this point) nearly a hundred different texts and sources, because I wanted to be as anally complete as I could.  And there are a few things to keep in mind if you're wishing for a relatively accurate "medieval price list."

There's a tendency to make eyepoppingly broad assumptions of what "medieval" means.  Discussing 13th century Scotland, a tiny impoverished nation barely beyond a subsistence economy, in the same breath as the glittering and sophisticated northern Italian city-states of the same time period? Comparing the 14th century Hanse cities to the vast Russian steppe, just barely in the Iron Age? Heck, never mind comparing medieval Europe at any point to medieval CHINA, pretty much at any point.  

Quite aside from the chuckleheadedness of drawing any parallel between prices in Constantinople in 1050 to Alexandria in 1150 to Genoa in 1250 to London in 1350? You couldn't make an accurate table for the United States just within the last fifty years. I bought my first computer in 1986 for $1000, and laughed at how cheaply I got it compared to other options. The one I own now I bought for $300 five years ago, it was the cheapest desktop model Walmart sold, and of course it's many orders of magnitude more powerful than that poor Atari 520 ST.  (In 1966, a computer was a giant installation costing millions of dollars, and you could no more get one retail than purchase an armored regiment over the counter.)  In that same time period, my weekly grocery bill not quite trebled.[/COLOR]

Quote from: amacris;1008947In ACKS I certainly made an effort to have plausible prices for our various goods. B/X was the starting point for most ACKS prices but I then checked them against historical references and adjusted.  For medieval prices, I assumed 1 silver piece in ACKS was worth approximately 1 English silver penny. For classical prices, I assumed 1sp was worth approximately 1 drachma.

But the problem with this method is that the price list for a game is fixed while the price of goods in history varied widely over time and distance. Often price lists found in books are from dates that can span hundreds of years and entirely different economic regions. Roman Republican prices and Roman Imperial prices are different by an order of magnitude. Prices went up as the amount of gold and silver in circulation increased (usually through introducing debased coins), and went up during periods when grain was costly; they went down when solid currency was used and when grain was abundant. To overcome the time-and-distance problem, I set the value of grain at a fixed amount of in-game currency and then re-balanced the prices of other goods relative to the price of grain.

So ACKS pricing formula approximates to (in medieval terms) "1 silver piece is worth 1 English silver penny when 1 quarter of wheat costs 3 shillings."

There's an Economics issue of AXIOMS that goes into a deep dive on all of the above. Happy to share with interested parties.

Thank you, both of you:).

Can I quote you in another thread:D? And yes, I'd be interested in that issue of AXIOMS.

Quote from: Graewulf;1009668Quality is far more than just aesthetics. Making it look nicer doesn't mean it won't break. Yes, better made swords will usually look nicer, but that's because of the skill of the bladesmith AND the quality of materials used. Cheap swords made by less-skilled smiths with lower quality steel should absolutely have a higher chance of breaking, no matter how they look. Fatal flaws like chipping, cracks, dimpling, poor heat treatment, etc. all make a HUGE difference in how a sword functions and whether or not it will break. Cheap, poorly-made blades can always be polished up and embellished to make them look good, but they will still have a much higher chance of failing than a well-made blade that doesn't look all that good.

Also, a sword-like object can easily look like a much more impressive sword;). Until you try using it or see someone attempting the same, that is, but medieval swordmasters weren't above selling on the cheap.

Quote from: Ravenswing;1009059Indeed, whose ton?  

A common element is dispute over weights, where (say) a Genoese "ton" was more than a Nicean "ton" or a Thessalonikan "ton."

A level of detail I wager few gamers would want to touch.

Ive used this sort of stuff before. Coins and weight, and measurements in my campaigns tend to vary a little or alot depending on the region. Within a region and usually, but not allways, neighboring regions theres a fair amount of commonality of not exactly the same. But the further away you get the more likely you are to run into some units that are not the same. Or even where nothing is the same. You can usually guess out equivalents. 1 gallon is just over 3 and 3 quarters liters. An illithid purple cube is worth about 6 standard gp while a Elven gp is valued at about 1.5 standard gp.

Quote from: Graewulf;1009668Quality is far more than just aesthetics. Making it look nicer doesn't mean it won't break. Yes, better made swords will usually look nicer, but that's because of the skill of the bladesmith AND the quality of materials used. Cheap swords made by less-skilled smiths with lower quality steel should absolutely have a higher chance of breaking, no matter how they look. Fatal flaws like chipping, cracks, dimpling, poor heat treatment, etc. all make a HUGE difference in how a sword functions and whether or not it will break. Cheap, poorly-made blades can always be polished up and embellished to make them look good, but they will still have a much higher chance of failing than a well-made blade that doesn't look all that good.

Absolutely. It was true then and it is true today.  You can buy a very pretty looking sword that is brittle and won't hold and edge, and you can buy an ugly sword of high quality steel.

Good quality swords were harder to make than cheap, munitions quality swords. For starters a good sword requires higher quality steel and better forging techniques, both of these will up the price.

The quality tests that some modern bladesmiths associations require for membership are brutal. A poor quality blade will not pass muster. It will chip, break, dull, etc where a good quality blade won't.

For other iron and steel implements much the same applies.  How good was the steel edge that was welded on to the wrought iron body? How good was the welding job? Quality in smithing is more than just aesthetics.

Who the fuck wants to track a peasant's sickle at that level of detail?  Or even a damn sword, for that matter.  Is that what the game is about?  No thanks.

To be honest, I would only worry about it if a player made a point of saying they were buying a cheap sword, or a really high quality one. For the most part a sword is a sword for all practical game purposes.

As for a peasant's sickle, well maybe for a RQ3 starting character where that might be their only weapon...

But then I'm the sort of GM who has players set a "standard of living" and just spend X money per month on it, without worrying about the cost per night of a room at the inn or a round of ale at the tavern. "I live high on the hog" or "I pinch every penny until it bleeds" is good enough for me. I don't really want to play Papers & Paychecks for fun.

Quote from: Headless;1009245Sure.  I still don't think you are understanding what I am getting at.  I'm saying you are operating on a whole other level man.  And its not easy to get there.  It takes time, the right players, the right DM and the right game, but most of all time.  

Most people done ask about the reasons for things in the real world. In an imaginary one if people even consider the question they will answer for themselves(with out ever asking the DM for some strange reason) either

a) becuase reasons.
b) deus ex machina
c) Plot twist!
d) they eat fuck you! Cause thats what they eat!

All of which boil down to, its just a game.  

If they ask the question out loud and get one of those answers from the DM, then they don't ask the question any more.  Ever.

That's why as a DM, I try to put on my best poker face, keep quiet and let the players discuss it among themselves. This isn't just for things like prices. It works well when they're trying to figure out who or what was behind the attack on the village, or why monsters that were seldom seen in recent years have started popping up on a regular basis. Sometimes they jump to the wrong conclusions. Sometimes they figure it out correctly, and sometimes the answer they come up with -while wrong- is ten times better than what I had in mind, so I go with their idea instead of my own.

After three wandering monster checks produce encounters with ogres...

Player 1: That's the third ogre we've encountered in two days, but the tavern keeper said the locals haven't seen humanoids or giants in decades.

Player 2: Maybe the ogres just arrived.

Player 3: Maybe that fucking inn keeper is lying and he's in cahoots with the ogres!

DM: Shrugs.

Now I was thinking about having the ogres be long-time inhabitants who were in a magically induced hibernation for decades, but Player 3 gave me an idea: Maybe the guy at the tavern IS with the ogres. Consider that idea stolen, Player 3!

As a player, I've always been one to ask about prices and seek bargains because DMs I've played for were stingy with cash. So haggling and trading other forms of loot* is a long-time habit for me. I'm not so tight-fisted when I DM but it's been my experience that beginners with low-level PCs tend to shop and haggle -especially those who get measly amounts of gold for their starting money.

* This applies tenfold if your players are the type to loot everything they can possibly carry. If they seize a dozen suits of armor and scores of weapons off the bad guys and unload them in the local market, guess what might happen to local prices.

Quote from: Bren;1009270Oh a  sports quote. Wow you really proved your point this time. :rolleyes:

I thought so.

I've become a meme! :D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1009717Who the fuck wants to track a peasant's sickle at that level of detail?  Or even a damn sword, for that matter.  Is that what the game is about?  No thanks.

Nobody but it could come up as part of the work done when a players asks

How much gold I earn from my manor/castle/keep?
How many men do I raise from my manor/castle/keep?
How much money to I make trading with my sailing ship?

For those who are really into all the details of owning and managing a manor/castle/keep Pendragon has a couple of books that make it a subgame all its own. No longer do you just roll some dice on the Estate table and that's it for the year. Now you can build a dovecote and roll to see how may squabs you got.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1009735For those who are really into all the details of owning and managing a manor/castle/keep Pendragon has a couple of books that make it a subgame all its own. No longer do you just roll some dice on the Estate table and that's it for the year. Now you can build a dovecote and roll to see how may squabs you got.

There are a half dozen sub systems out there that work well and in the development of all them people debated about the minutiae before figuring out how it worked. Often it is the simplest system that take the most work to get right.

Despite my sarcastic tone above, the Pendragon books really are an impressive resource on this sort of thing.

Pendragon has been recommended a couple times lately.  

Does it work for adventurers?  Or mostly just knights?

Quote from: DavetheLost;1009721To be honest, I would only worry about it if a player made a point of saying they were buying a cheap sword, or a really high quality one. For the most part a sword is a sword for all practical game purposes.

As for a peasant's sickle, well maybe for a RQ3 starting character where that might be their only weapon...

But then I'm the sort of GM who has players set a "standard of living" and just spend X money per month on it, without worrying about the cost per night of a room at the inn or a round of ale at the tavern. "I live high on the hog" or "I pinch every penny until it bleeds" is good enough for me. I don't really want to play Papers & Paychecks for fun.

I won't nit-pick the small stuff, but bigger expenses absolutely. Adventurers in my world aren't wealthy people, not by a long shot, so just keeping their gear in working order long enough to buy better gear is going to be of great expense. If the adventuring group is looking to buy weapons and armor, they might not have much choice in what they'll find, depending on where they are. Quality and, especially, availability will be much higher in large towns and cities than it will be in small towns and villages. Very rural areas are likely to have nothing available at all.

Quote from: Headless;1009748Pendragon has been recommended a couple times lately.  

Does it work for adventurers?  Or mostly just knights?

Things like lands and castles would work for everyone.  The game itself is very tightly focused on playing a knight of King Arthur as portrayed in Malory.

Quote from: AsenRG;1009687Can I quote you in another thread:D?

Feel free!

Quote from: Omega;1009706Ive used this sort of stuff before. Coins and weight, and measurements in my campaigns tend to vary a little or alot depending on the region. Within a region and usually, but not allways, neighboring regions theres a fair amount of commonality of not exactly the same. But the further away you get the more likely you are to run into some units that are not the same. Or even where nothing is the same. You can usually guess out equivalents. 1 gallon is just over 3 and 3 quarters liters. An illithid purple cube is worth about 6 standard gp while a Elven gp is valued at about 1.5 standard gp.

I used to do that, back when.  Different names, weights and values for coinage from different nations.  Had a chart and everything.  When I started up again after my eight year hiatus, I dropped the notion.  I can't hold as much in my head as in younger days, and it seemed more work and fuss than the verisimilitude tradeoff justified.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1009717Who the fuck wants to track a peasant's sickle at that level of detail?  Or even a damn sword, for that matter.  Is that what the game is about?  No thanks.

Obviously, people who care about that sort of thing.

I'm sure that everyone on this board has at least one preference in gaming which would drive you crazy, and no doubt everyone would roll their eyes at one or more of your own preferences.  The game's "about" what its players want it to be about.

Hush, you and your "being reasonable."

Quote from: Graewulf;1009668Quality is far more than just aesthetics. Making it look nicer doesn't mean it won't break. Yes, better made swords will usually look nicer, but that's because of the skill of the bladesmith AND the quality of materials used. Cheap swords made by less-skilled smiths with lower quality steel should absolutely have a higher chance of breaking, no matter how they look. Fatal flaws like chipping, cracks, dimpling, poor heat treatment, etc. all make a HUGE difference in how a sword functions and whether or not it will break. Cheap, poorly-made blades can always be polished up and embellished to make them look good, but they will still have a much higher chance of failing than a well-made blade that doesn't look all that good.

Yes, you're quite right, but I also wanted to have playability concerns in mind. Not every GM wants a situation where swords will be breaking on a regular basis. Anyways, any GM who wanted to include something like that could house-rule it easily enough.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1009717Who the fuck wants to track a peasant's sickle at that level of detail?  Or even a damn sword, for that matter.  Is that what the game is about?  No thanks.

Hence my decision.

Mind you, I did make a distinction between cheaply-made and well-made armor, because that's easier to handle.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1010005Mind you, I did make a distinction between cheaply-made and well-made armor, because that's easier to handle.

Yes, it is.

[video=youtube;zKhEw7nD9C4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4[/youtube]

Was the above because the Black Knight used sub-par armor, or because Excalibur was a vorpal weapon?

Why not both?

:D

(Also, it was mostly just an excuse to post that clip.)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1010700(Also, it was mostly just an excuse to post that clip.)

Ah yes, the Black Knight. Back in the 70s it sometimes seemed some folks gamed just to have an excuse for an unrelenting series of Monty Python quotes.

Quote from: Bren;1010880Ah yes, the Black Knight. Back in the 70s it sometimes seemed some folks gamed just to have an excuse for an unrelenting series of Monty Python quotes.

Back in the 70s?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1011648Back in the 70s?

Yes the 1970s. Specifically the years 1975-1979. Surely you've heard the term before?

He means people still do it lol

Quote from: RPGPundit;1011648Back in the 70s?

You do know it was released in 1975? Holy Grail quotes in gaming have been around forever.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1011652He means people still do it lol

If that was his meaning I missed that interpretation. In part because I haven't heard an in-person Monty Python or a Holy Grail joke at a gaming table in decades.

Theres been tries at adding equipment quality to AD&D and 2e. I think they integrated it better in 2e though.

Also there was some tries at patchwork armour. OA and at least one Dragon article.

Quote from: Omega;1011701Theres been tries at adding equipment quality to AD&D and 2e. I think they integrated it better in 2e though.

Also there was some tries at patchwork armour. OA and at least one Dragon article.

The 2e Fighter's Handbook had it, I think.  Been a while since I read my copy, I could be wrong.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1011736The 2e Fighter's Handbook had it, I think.  Been a while since I read my copy, I could be wrong.

You're not. It's there. kind of a 'select limb, select rough weight of armor, get number. Add up all the numbers to get total armor value.' mechanic. Also had 3 example armors (gladiator armors I think) using said system.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1011736The 2e Fighter's Handbook had it, I think.  Been a while since I read my copy, I could be wrong.

You are correct.

Piecemeal Armor near the end of the book.
For example a chainmail chest piece, two plate mail arm pieces and 2 banded mail leg pieces would total to AC 5. If you only salvaged one leg piece then AC 4.
Quick simple and seems to work overall. And could be used to replicate partial armours gladiators wore and such.

Quote from: Bren;1011657If that was his meaning I missed that interpretation. In part because I haven't heard an in-person Monty Python or a Holy Grail joke at a gaming table in decades.

You must hang around with the wrong class of people, then.

Quote from: Omega;1011701Theres been tries at adding equipment quality to AD&D and 2e. I think they integrated it better in 2e though.

Also there was some tries at patchwork armour. OA and at least one Dragon article.

I remember that Dragon, I seem to recall an Elmore cover with girl from Snarfquest...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1007790I spent several years painstakingly researching 14th century English prices, for everything from roast sparrows to warhorses.

It turned my players into tomb robbers slaughtering goblins for their shitty swords and pathetic spears, because a handful of pennies kept them alive for another week.

So...several years well spent?

Given that nothing else in D&D has much basis in or relationship to reality, why would the price lists be any different?

An internally consistent system seems fine, I'm far from an expert but didn't they avtually use barter more than coins in the middle ages anyway?

Quote from: Voros;1012769An internally consistent system seems fine, I'm far from an expert but didn't they avtually use barter more than coins in the middle ages anyway?

See RPGPundit upthread talking about most peasants not having any money at all. I think that was in this thread anyway; there seem to be several in the same vein and I'm losing track.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1011747You're not. It's there. kind of a 'select limb, select rough weight of armor, get number. Add up all the numbers to get total armor value.' mechanic. Also had 3 example armors (gladiator armors I think) using said system.

Quote from: Omega;1011751You are correct.

Piecemeal Armor near the end of the book.
For example a chainmail chest piece, two plate mail arm pieces and 2 banded mail leg pieces would total to AC 5. If you only salvaged one leg piece then AC 4.
Quick simple and seems to work overall. And could be used to replicate partial armours gladiators wore and such.

So it's the book with the hackneyed hit location rules as well?  Or am I remembering the Combat Options book on that?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1012617You must hang around with the wrong class of people, then.

The people are first class. Unlike some folks, we like to tell new jokes every decade or two.

Quote from: Bren;1012816The people are first class. Unlike some folks, we like to tell new jokes every decade or two.

Inconceivable!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1012821Inconceivable!

You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

Still old. But better.

Quote from: Dumarest;1012675I remember that Dragon, I seem to recall an Elmore cover with girl from Snarfquest...

Oh good, someone else remembers Snarfquest. :D

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1012815So it's the book with the hackneyed hit location rules as well?  Or am I remembering the Combat Options book on that?

I don't know about hackneyed, as I never met anyone that actually used them. Nor for that matter the original hit location rules from Supplement II. So maybe it's the inclusion of pointless hit location rules in game supplements that's hackneyed. Suffice to say, they weren't particularly good. IIRC, it was -4 to hit a specific limb or general object, and -8 to hit the head (so don't bother targeting the head of unhelmeted foes unless they are in full plate, or +3 chain, etc.).

Quote from: RPGPundit;1012617You must hang around with the wrong class of people, then.

Quote from: Bren;1012816The people are first class. Unlike some folks, we like to tell new jokes every decade or two.

You mean your group is actually fun to hang with:D?

(If I never hear another Monthy Python joke, it would still be one too many).

I'm Hungarian and despite that I still had to endure about a dozen too many Python jokes/reference.

Except ones of the "Dirty Hungarian Phrasebook", that one was for obvious reasons taboo.

Quote from: AsenRG;1012944You mean your group is actually fun to hang with:D?

(If I never hear another Monthy Python joke, it would still be one too many).

The modern 'joke' in my group is that the famous (amongst us) xckd  (https://xkcd.com/16/)comic--about how odd/sad it is that a group known for surreal and unexpected humor is now mostly known as comfortable jokes everyone knows by heart-- is itself over 12 years old.


...and pointing that out is itself a groan-worthy event.



That said, comfort food is comfortable, as are old ratty sweaters. People don't repeat these old chestnuts ad naseum as some bizarre test of endurance. They do it because they get a genuine, if unchallenging, laugh out of it. It's just a 'one-man's-trash...' situation.

History often shows us that something that starts out as eccentric, crazy, hip, or revolutionary tends to become mainstream with time. (and then outdated)

Quote from: joriandrake;1012952I'm Hungarian and despite that I still had to endure about a dozen too many Python jokes/reference.

Except ones of the "Dirty Hungarian Phrasebook", that one was for obvious reasons taboo.

Hungary, the only country where Attila is the hero instead of a villain.
(http://www.fototime.com/photos/st/0281FA64391544C3A41C9D60936CD5E4/625o%20-%20Budapest%20-%20Attila%20the%20Hun%20-%20.jpg)

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1012977The modern 'joke' in my group is that the famous (amongst us) xckd  (https://xkcd.com/16/)comic--about how odd/sad it is that a group known for surreal and unexpected humor is now mostly known as comfortable jokes everyone knows by heart-- is itself over 12 years old.

I remember that one. So that was 12 years ago.

Wow. Time flies like an arrow. ...................................Fruit flies like a banana.

Quote from: Bren;1013006Hungary, the only country where Attila is the hero instead of a villain.
(http://www.fototime.com/photos/st/0281FA64391544C3A41C9D60936CD5E4/625o%20-%20Budapest%20-%20Attila%20the%20Hun%20-%20.jpg)

Although disputed, Hungarians/Magyars are pretty much also cousins to the Huns. Most of the tales and legends have common roots (and Attila is a common name), although today the most accepted origin story is that of being of finno-ugric origin I've read of different origin possiblities too, like Scythian, Sogdian, even far eastern (Somewhere on the shores of manchuria with japanese contact). While migrating we also supposedly had a lot of contact around the Don river and where now Ukraine is with Varangians (Norse) which influenced the old Hungarian religion. While our 'friendly' slavic neighbours often swap between vehemently claiming we're Mongolians or Slavic ourselves (totally ignoring that Hungarians fought Mongols) there are also Italian historians who claim that Hungarians are actually heirs to Etruscan colonists in Pannonia.

... As we ourselves aren't sure of where we came from, and we have no clear relative in Europe everyone basically claims whatever the heck they want, making us easy targets. There are some interesting things to all the claims though, some seem genuine and legit and I wouldn't be surprised if some amount of truth is there to many of those.

Due to being federal migratory tribes/clans and having genetic/language bits common with Japanese it wouldn't surprise me if the great migration for us started there, this would mean some relationship with the Ainu or Japanese. Due to moving across Eurasia picking up new members or wives from among Sogdians or Scythians wouldn't be surprising either, nor would be weird to have met Varangians along the rivers or to intermarry with Pannonians from Etruscii origin once the Carpathians were conquered. We also probably have common ancestry with the Finns and Estonians.

Interestingly I myself think the least likely origin is the second most promoted one of Turkic origin which currently seems to be a 'fan favorite' theory of the far right and Turkey. The linguistic things we have in common with Turkic I believe is a natural result of passing through Persian/Turkic ruled territories and the contact with them. Just as we're not Romans or of Roman origin because we are using now mostly words of Latin origin and the Latin alphabet. During the time of Habsburg rule the idea that Hungarians are actually related at all to the Huns was pushed away/disputed heavily. So right now our own damn education is messy about the whole thing too.


fun fact:
Kossuth is a Hungarian name, one of our revolutionary/republican leaders was named that, he had such an impact in his tour of the US that multiple settlements were named after him, might even had influenced Lincoln, and one of these towns is the namesake for the D&D god of fire.

Thank you for the patience of reading all this :)

All those connections go back before the bronze age. Cultures seriously differentiated after the bronze age collapse (isolated pocket evolution), but we're all basically proto-Scythains/Yamyana to some degree. The Yamnaya were the dominant trading culture from as far east as Japan to as far west as Spain (based on parallel human and cannabis genetics dating to the same eras), and basically controlled the "Silk Road" routes, until one of the mountain pass routes was rendered non-traversible (earthquakes, slides, etc block passes and dried up water sources). This split the population, and the western portion flooded the European continent and took over (not being able to freely go back and forth from the eastern steppe-land to the western steppe-lands). They had sophisticated metal work for the time (copper hammers, etc), hemp rope and fine cloth, the wheel, double horse drawn chariots, superior metal arms and armor, ox-drawn "wain" wagons big enough to build a yurt on (bronze age "tiny homes" lol), etc.

Later, after the collapse of the bronze age cultural networks,  the first iron wielding tribes flooded out of the same steppes with iron rimmed chariots, iron swords, etc, and similarly dominated europe for a time. People are much more related in a geographic sense than most people realize due to cultural and language drift. Or, to put it another way, the Huns were already "cousins" to the kingdoms that they swept in and totally dominated.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/thousands-horsemen-may-have-swept-bronze-age-europe-transforming-local-population
"Within a few hundred years, the Yamnaya contributed to at least half of central Europeans' genetic ancestry."

Let me first tell you that I'm happy how you have shown interest and that we can discuss this topic. :)

Priscus called the Huns also Scythians btw.

Yes, but I meant literally cousins. The seven Hungarian tribes formed a loose federation without a single supreme authority. According to national tradition, their chieftains elected Árpád, the most powerful among them, as overall leader. The Gesta Hungarorum records that "Hunni sive Hungari" divided into seven armies, each having 30,000 warriors and a single commander of whom "Arpad…" was the most powerful and the first to enter Pannonia. House Csaba is said to have been a dynasty with direct bloodline of Attila. The basis that Hungarians descend from the Huns is also the narrative of the Gesta Hungarorum based on a late 13th century manuscript which can no longer be traced. The Gestis Hungarorum Liber names "Ugek…de genere Magog regis…dux Scythie" confirming this alleged descent from Attila, when recording that he was the ancestor of Árpád the first Hungarian leader. The Annals of Lambert record that "regina Ungariorum, mater Salomonis regis" presented the sword of "rex Hunnorum Attila" to "duci Baioriorum Ottoni" after her son was restored as king of Hungary shows that the Hungarian/Hun connection was not solely an invention of later sources.  

Quote:

QuoteWhen Attila suddenly passed away in 453, his empire crumbled mostly because of the intrigues and rebellion of the Germanic tribes under him. Attila's sons were defeated in the struggle for the succession (455) and returned with their clans and kinsmen to 'Scythia'. (the land above the Black Sea, beyond the Carpathian ranges) They didn't forget their ancient grandeur and Prince (Chief) Csaba, the youngest son of Attila, began to spread the idea of an armed return to Pannónia (= Hungary), to take revenge upon the Germans, whom they considered as the main artisans of their defeat.

Interesting that other historicans see the connection to the Huns via the Avars of Pannonia:

QuoteA federation had come into being with the fusion of two great tribes: the Avari and Chunni consisting mostly of white Huns. The name Avari (< H.: A vár-i) means 'He who comes from an embanked stronghold', and Chunni (< H.: Hun-i, i.e. Hon-i), Huns. J. Thury, a Hungarian historian established that 37 different sources identify the Avars ethnically as Huns (P 059 pp. 113,128). In the Carpathian basin, they mainly occupied the Great Central Plain and Transdanubia and also considerable parts of present-day Austria and Dalmatia. The Avars kept their empire and their independence until 796, when they were defeated by the Franks under Charlemagne, who destroyed their State, whereby the pendulum swing, once again, westward. Those who studied life in Pannónia under Roman rule more closely, have also pointed out certain linguistic facts which evidence the survival of the Hungarian language. The very name of the land Pannónia, for example, is a Hunnic or Avar compound with Pan and Hon (=H.: Fenn-Hon) meaning 'Upper Land'. The most important city was Savaria, so named after the Sun god or the Avars themselves. In that city, God was worshipped in a great temple, which had an immense Sundisc above its altar. The present-day village of Szabar, near ancient Savaria, probably retains the ancient city's names.

Direct relation between Huns-Hungarian was something fully accepted once but now people tend to dismiss it as fantasy, I myself don't really know about it but considering the people we conquered and 'interbred' with I would say it's highly likely we do have actual Hun ancestors. Our traditional archery is also very similar to the Scythian/Hunnic one, some regions of Hungary even in early 15th century still had archers wear armor similar to the one from the migration period.

something like this:

Spoiler

(https://img00.deviantart.net/70ae/i/2015/107/c/0/haraszt_hazi_orsolya_of_karpati_kiralysag__magyar__by_gambargin-d7fdee4.jpg)

Ok, I won't post more about this. While bows and cultural armors are on topic, most of it isn't, but I am fine with continuing this in PMs. :)

Nice artwork. :)

That is some fascinating information.

Quote from: Dumarest;1012679Given that nothing else in D&D has much basis in or relationship to reality, why would the price lists be any different?

Exactly.

Complaining that the prices of things in a fantasy world are not real would authentic is just so mind numbingly stupid it defies common sense. Most fantasy settings, even Warhammer RPG dont have real world authentic societies either.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1012815So it's the book with the hackneyed hit location rules as well?  Or am I remembering the Combat Options book on that?

Nope. Its got its own little system that the book notes is VERY OPTIONAL and cites why.
Calculate 25% of your total HP. Thats the "numbed" rating. And then calculate 50% total HP and thats the "useless" rating. This was applied to the limbs.
On a normal attack damage hits the torso and is counted off normal HP. To hit any other location you make a "called shot", (with an aditional -4 to hit if going for the head.)

So no hit location table.

If you hit a limb and the damage dealt exceeded the limbs numbed rating then its useless till the next round. If the attack exceeds the useless rating then the limb is useless untill the combat is over and 2d6 minutes have passed or some magic healing applied. There were some additional effects you could apply to the numbed or disabled location.

Quote from: Dumarest;1012679Given that nothing else in D&D has much basis in or relationship to reality, why would the price lists be any different?

So why plate armor isn't 1 cp, and a mug of beer a 1,000 gp in your setting?

Quote from: Omega;1013214Complaining that the prices of things in a fantasy world are not real would authentic is just so mind numbingly stupid it defies common sense.

Yet we don't charge players 1 copper piece for a suit a plate armor and 1,000 gold pieces for a pint of beer.  But sure whether one charges 1,000 gp for plate or 1,250 gp for plate is splitting hairs.

Outside of one's interests the main benefit of figure how it worked in history is that reality holds it own logic. By learning how it worked in history you can more easily extrapolate it to cover what you need to rule on at the moment.

Quote from: Omega;1013214Most fantasy settings, even Warhammer RPG dont have real world authentic societies either.

If I had a penny any time said this to justify their whims as a referee. Again 1 copper plate armor, players don't expect plate to be so cheap, nor to do they expect the NPCs to act like insane lunatics. Again learning about history and people general is useful because that knowledge can be extrapolate to cover the unexpected when PCs interact with NPCs.

Quote from: estar;1013243So why plate armor isn't 1 cp, and a mug of beer a 1,000 gp in your setting?

I think there are people here who would trade a  suit of plate armor for a beer.

Quote from: Bren;1013160Nice artwork. :)

It is indeed. Not mine, but from proper historical research. The only difference is the character being female instead of male, but then again that might not be inaccurate either as archers had some rare few females included in the semi-independent archer regiments (levy from lesser nobles or their families)

Quote from: Dumarest;1013179That is some fascinating information.

I'm just happy I don't get lynched for writing this much about a different topic :)

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1013267I think there are people here who would trade a  suit of plate armor for a beer.

In that world I would totally create a brewer/beer trader character. Easier to transport it than full plate mails anyway.

Quote from: estar;1013243So why plate armor isn't 1 cp, and a mug of beer a 1,000 gp in your setting?

So you're saying D&D price lists reflect reality? See, I can take  things out of context just like you, but without following up with a six-paragraph lecture about how I've run the same setting for 30 years.

Grasping at straws to defend your setting preferences isn't a very convincing argument for anything. Just admit the facts and don't be so defensive.

Quote from: Dumarest;1013344So you're saying D&D price lists reflect reality? See, I can take  things out of context just like you, but without following up with a six-paragraph lecture about how I've run the same setting for 30 years.

Grasping at straws to defend your setting preferences isn't a very convincing argument for anything. Just admit the facts and don't be so defensive.

I am not claiming that D&D prices reflect historical prices. My crack is about the idea that any old price list will do as it is all made up anyway.

A price list doesn't need be historical but there is a point where it won't make sense hence my example of 1 cp for a Plate Armor. And I will further add that "band" of where it makes sense is pretty broad.

Quote from: estar;1013354I am not claiming that D&D prices reflect historical prices. My crack is about the idea that any old price list will do as it is all made up anyway.

I used to make price lists for every setting/nation and use different currency (except when setting made that nonsense, like in case of Shadowrun's Nuyen) and I believe even the most skewered ones (due to high demand or lack of something) was more realistic than the vanilla lists.

Quote from: estar;1013243So why plate armor isn't 1 cp, and a mug of beer a 1,000 gp in your setting?

Oh snap!