Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142238I'm sorry, what? Since when have clerics been required to do that in exchange for healing?

Since it was the late-80's and one of the only DMs in the area that I could actual reach the game location of without needing a car ride from my parents was, in retrospect, a massively anti-Christian **** (or was just really trying to look Edgy; I was 13 at the time and he was probably only 19-20 and going to the local community college, but that was basically an ADULT to me back then). The GM's main problem was that this city is EXTREMELY conservative and Christian, as were most of the players.

Anyway, the DM insisted that if the cleric wasn't played in accord with this pagan faith of his campaign world they'd lose their spellcasting abilities and that if they didn't try to convert the other PCs it'd be a lapse of his faith... and he was really stingy with any alternative means of healing and, again in retrospect, really loved his railroads.

Long story short... a shitty GM can ruin just about any game system to the point you just aren't even interested in looking for any good points in it anymore. Fortunately, I found an ad for the Robotech RPG in the back of my Dragon magazine subscription and mail-ordered the first book direct from Palladium. I started running it for my friends, we later expanded into Heroes Unlimited, Palladium Fantasy and eventually Rifts when it came out.

It took 3e for me to even look at D&D again... it took the Living Arcanis campaign being run by a local game club several of my friends were members of to actually get me to play it and even then I was basically the earliest adopter of 4E in the area because it was the first version of D&D that ever remotely did what I was looking for in a fantasy RPG setting (i.e. allowed you to create PCs that in some way resembled those in actual fiction that wasn't derived from D&D and I really hated the backslide in 5e of dumping the warlord and deep martial classes to the point I didn't even touch it until 2016 and STILL haven't bought the books, just used a fellow player's copies).

Quote from: Chris24601;1142242Since it was the late-80's and one of the only DMs in the area that I could actual reach the game location of without needing a car ride from my parents was, in retrospect, a massively anti-Christian **** (or was just really trying to look Edgy; I was 13 at the time and he was probably only 19-20 and going to the local community college, but that was basically an ADULT to me back then). The GM's main problem was that this city is EXTREMELY conservative and Christian, as were most of the players.

Anyway, the DM insisted that if the cleric wasn't played in accord with this pagan faith of his campaign world they'd lose their spellcasting abilities and that if they didn't try to convert the other PCs it'd be a lapse of his faith... and he was really stingy with any alternative means of healing and, again in retrospect, really loved his railroads.

Long story short... a shitty GM can ruin just about any game system to the point you just aren't even interested in looking for any good points in it anymore. Fortunately, I found an ad for the Robotech RPG in the back of my Dragon magazine subscription and mail-ordered the first book direct from Palladium. I started running it for my friends, we later expanded into Heroes Unlimited, Palladium Fantasy and eventually Rifts when it came out.

It took 3e for me to even look at D&D again... it took the Living Arcanis campaign being run by a local game club several of my friends were members of to actually get me to play it and even then I was basically the earliest adopter of 4E in the area because it was the first version of D&D that ever remotely did what I was looking for in a fantasy RPG setting (i.e. allowed you to create PCs that in some way resembled those in actual fiction that wasn't derived from D&D and I really hated the backslide in 5e of dumping the warlord and deep martial classes to the point I didn't even touch it until 2016 and STILL haven't bought the books, just used a fellow player's copies).

Your GM was a cocksucker. Okay, I see where you're coming from now. Wow, that had to suck.

I totally do not blame you for being bitter about it.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142252Your GM was a cocksucker. Okay, I see where you're coming from now. Wow, that had to suck.

I totally do not blame you for being bitter about it.

Thanks. It ended up being a formative moment for me in terms of what I like and dislike in RPGs. It also killed my interest in a lot of what people tout as great about the OSR/D&D-isms, particularly as I started to delve into other systems.

For example, Robotech, with Palladium's flat leveling curve and starting out as mecha pilots all but killed my interest in "zero-to-hero" play. Palladium Fantasy's take on the gods (i.e. they're alien energy beings that primitives mistake for gods because they can grant powers) cemented my preferences for fantasy religions as "variable interpretations" vs. "absolute truth."

And in terms of magic items, Palladium also set the idea in me that basic mechanical bonuses to hit and damage aren't even worth being treated as magical properties (Palladium made those into Dwarven and Kobold-crafted items) and that there's a price for everything (even if that price is well beyond what ordinary folks could ever afford). This is something that carried over to my own system where to-hit, damage and improved defense bonuses come from item quality while magic properties are things like flaming blades, dispelling magic barriers or making you resistant to heat.

I also grew to prefer "unlimited" magic (in the sense that weapon attacks and running are unlimited) via a combo of Heroes Unlimited powers feeling more like how magic worked in most fantasy books I was reading and delving into Mage the Ascension in college. Similarly, Rifts' magic as an alternative to technology instead clearly surpassing technology led to a lot of my design preference for magic combat system where magic is basically "weapon training for the brainy but frail" (i.e. your default magic attack hit about as hard as a sword or bow).

It's probably why my preferences are for, as aforementioned, a kind of tiered magic item system where things like potions through various "+1 item properties" (using 3e nomenclature) can be bought and sold in a similar way to how we buy and sell automobiles today while leaving more potent items to the equivalent of buying private jets or yachts.

And it's worth taking that into account because while you can say "magic items are so rare that they're only traded among the nobility" but then, even if that rules out a normal level 1 PC, what's a level 9+ fighter who clears land, builds a stronghold, attracts followers and starts collecting rent from the families on his land? What's his son if your campaign lasts long enough that you start playing the second generation?

There's a lot of presumption in those statements about magic items and nobility regarding how far they see the PCs rising in society that doesn't always apply.

Quote from: Chris24601;1142314And it's worth taking that into account because while you can say "magic items are so rare that they're only traded among the nobility" but then, even if that rules out a normal level 1 PC, what's a level 9+ fighter who clears land, builds a stronghold, attracts followers and starts collecting rent from the families on his land?

He's a noble and should typically have the opportunity to buy several randomly-generated magic items (from merchants/brokers, or possibly adventurers) each year, I'd say. A good thing to include on a random events table.

Eg my son's PC once travelled to Viridistan to sell a magic item to the Green Empress, knowing she'd pay far more for it than he could get at home in Altanis.

Much of the magic weapon to hit this critter stuff in d&d has no basis in real world lore surrounding those fictional critters. Looking at European folklore for werewolves you find that werewolves for example are especially susceptible to silver, not that they are invulnerable to anything else, same with vampires and in some cases even incorporeal undead. Its almost as if Gygax was simply trying to gatekeep against low levels or provide incentive to adventure in crappy dungeons before you can do the cool ones.

If you want a folklore, myth or fantasy literature emulator, I don't think D&D will be a good fit without tons of modifications. YMMV.

Quote from: Morblot;1142089Thanks also for bringing up the GP values in the 1e DMG. I haven't read the book much (I know, I know; it's on my list of things to do) since I don't run 1e, but now I know and can and will use it as a reference.

I would strongly recommend you not use the GP values in the 1e DMG as they greatly undervalue high power magic items. For example, a magic scroll is worth 300 gp times the spells level, so a 9th level spell only has 9 times the value of a first level spell. Third Edition D&D increases the prices exponentially, so a scroll with a 9th level spell is worth 9x9 or 81 times as much as a scroll with a first level spell. Much more appropriate value considering it's power.

Swords are similar, in 1e a +5 sword is only worth 7.5 times the value of a +1 sword whereas it's worth 25 times as much in 3e (5x5).

As for magic items shops, I break down magic items by cost (as above) and set the rarity based on that cost with the cheapest items being widely available and anything very expensive being available only through brokers (magic item brokers work for the various wizard guilds IMC).

Here's a blurb from the playtest version of OD&D (courtesy of Mike Mornard):

"Smallest villages have nothing, middle sized places will have fair probabilities of having standard mounts, magic swords and arrows, and standard-type mounts. The same is true for gems for sale. Walled towns will have all standard items for sale, some unusual ones, and a dragon market in which to sell your catch."

If you newbs are upset about magic shops, just wait till your players go to the dragon store!

Depends on the campaign, as always.

In the typical D&D campaign, I dont' mind magic shops in major cities, with some magic items for sale. Mostly consumables with a smattering of items. There isn't a mass production of magic items, so the ones for sale will be random and unpredictable.
For a more specific setting, like when I run Dark Sun, there are no magic shops that sell non-consumables. Every magic item is rare and too valuable to just sell. But I run a very lean game in Dark Sun, and a pile of obsidian shards is a valuable treasure.

I also like to head off the item hoard with some leveling items (magic items that gain in power depending on the level of the user) and crafters being able to disenchant magic items and use the materials as reagents for crafting their own items.