Old D&D is feet indoors, yards outdoors as a simple approximation of difficulty with low ceiling, etc.

If you have a situation  in which fire at more than a hundred yards or so is really an issue, you could just extend long range to whatever seems reasonable.

Actual use in the field isn't usually the same as theoretical effectiveness. Battle rifles (not today's carbines) were with some frequency fired at a thousand yards in WW1, but with the same  weapons usual fire ranges in WW2 were not vastly  different from smoothbore musketry in the Napoleonic Wars.

Quote from: Bren;808759Using a system like that, I might treat any stun damage past 0 as doing killing damage.

   Example: Fighter with 24 Hit Points. Gets in a bar fight. Takes the following damage in order.   4 pts stun, 6 pts stun (hit with bar stool), 2 pts stun, 5 pts killing (broken bottle), 4 pts stun, and finally 5 pts stun. The final punch exceeds his Hit Point 24-26 = -2 so he took an additional 2 points of killing damage for a total of 7 points of killing damage. After his enforced nap he wakes up and recovers some amount of stun.

Wouldn't that mean he should die though? Because his HP went past 0? Or do you mean that he takes enough stun damage alone to outnumber his HP? ie., he has 30 HP and takes 31 stun damage.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;808770Wouldn't that mean he should die though? Because his HP went past 0? Or do you mean that he takes enough stun damage alone to outnumber his HP? ie., he has 30 HP and takes 31 stun damage.

Sorry for not being more clear.

He has 24 HPs total. He took 5 pts killing damage and 21 pts stun. He isn't dead since he hasn't taken 24 pts of killing damage yet. But he's taken 2 pts of damage past 0 (24 -5 -21 = -2) so he now has -7 pts killing damage total and 17 pts stun total for a grand total of 24 pts of damage. His hit points are at 0 until he gets healed or recovers from the stun at which point he will still havea -7 points of killing damage to heal up from.

If a character had 30 Hit Points and took 31 Stun damage they would end up with 0 Hit Points with 1 point of Killing damage (for stun exceeding remaining hit points by 1) and 29 points of Stun damage (to zero out remaining Hit Points).

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;808707Another range question: melee attacks are supposed to grant you the option of just knocking the enemy unconscious instead of killing them. Does that apply to melee attacks that are spells? Like Shocking Grasp?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;808737Well, the specific situation was that the player was interrogating a Redbrand they'd taken captive. He decided to use Shocking Grasp, and I wasn't sure if that wouldn't just outright kill the guy or KO him or what.

And then if he /did/ get KO'd, how long would he be out for. Or would they be able to just slap him awake, and Shocking Grasp him over and over with no penalty because he keeps getting knocked unconscious.

It didn't seem realistic to me.

Yes, you can, if it is a melee spell attack. And yes it is repeatable to knock someone out and make them stable.

Combat Ch.
Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 76.)

Melee Attacks
Used in hand-to-hand combat, a melee attack allows you to attack a foe within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon such as a sword,
a warhammer, or an axe. A typical monster makes a melee attack when it strikes with its claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part. A few spells also involve making a melee attack.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 73.)

This above states there are a few melee attack spells in existence. They have to use their own reach either from a weapon or their own body part. To further support, let's look at the spell chapter. Are there those that are based on physical touch and those that suffer ranged attack penalties?

Spells Ch.
Range
The target of a spell must be within the spell’s range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.
Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 79.)

Attack Rolls
Some spells require the caster to make an attack roll
to determine whether the spell effect hits the intended target. Your attack bonus with a spell attack equals your spellcasting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus.
Most spells that require attack rolls involve ranged attacks. Remember that you have disadvantage on a ranged attack roll if you are within 5 feet of a hostile creature that can see you and that isn’t incapacitated (see chapter 9).
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 81.)

So there is a difference, and thus melee spell attacks and ranged spell attacks are assumed to exist.

However when does a stable creature rouse?

Combat Ch.
Stabilizing a Creature
[...]
A stable creature doesn’t make death saving throws, even though it has 0 hit points, but it does remain unconscious. The creature stops being stable, and must start making death saving throws again, if it takes any damage. A stable creature that isn’t healed regains 1 hit point after 1d4 hours.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 76.)

But is there any potential risk? Yes. You always run the risk of killing a creature outright if you exceed its negative HP maximum.

Dropping to 0 Hit Points
When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.
Instant Death
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
For example, a cleric with a maximum of
12 hit points currently has 6 hit points. If she takes 18 damage from an attack, she is reduced to 0 hit points, but 12 damage remains. Because the remaining damage equals her hit point maximum, the cleric dies.
Falling Unconscious
If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious (see appendix A). This unconsciousness ends if you regain any hit points.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 76.)

There is no negative HP. None. You either suffer instant death or gain the unconscious condition -- and start making death saves if not stable. Why? Because "unconscious ends if you regain any hit points." So there is not any neg HP to interfere with this process, as by RAW.

As for slapping them awake... GM fiat choice. I personally would say no, as per RAW, and as per GM interest. However, if you had a psychotic Paladin with Lay on Hands (and willing to risk their Oaths, except for maybe Vengeance?), or a character with the Healer feat and lots of Healer Kits (and willing to lose 5 silver a pop), yes it is then repeatable.

How do you handle making saves though, outside of combat? There are no "turns" when everyone is just in a barn somewhere interrogating this guy.

And since the Redbrand members have like 15 HP, I don't think it's possible to kill them with Shocking Grasp then.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;808811How do you handle making saves though, outside of combat? There are no "turns" when everyone is just in a barn somewhere interrogating this guy.

And since the Redbrand members have like 15 HP, I don't think it's possible to kill them with Shocking Grasp then.

The same way you handle saves for everything else out of combat, like traps and so on. GM controls time outside of combat. So unless things are time sensitive and require sequencing what does it matter?

As for 15 HP, yeah, perhaps unlikely at low levels. At higher levels, possible. Also possible while he's unconscious at 0 HP, as an attack on an unconscious condition grants advantage as well as critical hit. There is a chance to roll a 15 or 16 on 2d8. But what'd be the point of shocking an unconscious person?

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;808497I noticed that the ranges are exceedingly short, especially modern firearms in the DMG. Am I missing something that makes sense of this (especially when coupled with Advantage/Disadvantage)?

I think that once you go beyond the listed ranges the bullet has gone through so many specters that it's no longer an effective attack. But the specters don't take over the world because they're too busy stopping bullets. Yay for consistency!

Quote from: Opaopajr;808822The same way you handle saves for everything else out of combat, like traps and so on. GM controls time outside of combat. So unless things are time sensitive and require sequencing what does it matter?

As for 15 HP, yeah, perhaps unlikely at low levels. At higher levels, possible. Also possible while he's unconscious at 0 HP, as an attack on an unconscious condition grants advantage as well as critical hit. There is a chance to roll a 15 or 16 on 2d8. But what'd be the point of shocking an unconscious person?

Well, each death save could happen once every minute, or once every six seconds, etc. That could affect how much time people have to help that person.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;808825Well, each death save could happen once every minute, or once every six seconds, etc. That could affect how much time people have to help that person.

You could alter it like that. I created a variation on poisonous snake's poison before the MM came out and used poison's native stability along with death saves to come up with something new. The rules of 5e, though often inconveniently scattered, are remarkably clear, simple, and robust to tinkering.

However, I do have to ask GM to GM, why does it matter if the players torment this non-player character? You already have alignments as a method of questioning player character judgment, and reputations do work wonders. Or, if you removed them, just feed them whatever stops the torture, thus useless lies, and thus unproductive.

What does it bother you that they are torturing this character? To keep the game moving? To mitigate the obscene? To not reward psychotic, unproductive behavior?

Quote from: Opaopajr;808834What does it bother you that they are torturing this character? To keep the game moving? To mitigate the obscene? To not reward psychotic, unproductive behavior?

I've been running the game by the book since it's my first time, and I want to see what it's like "as intended" before I start messing with it.

The Lost Mines of Phandelver book gives you a DC to meet if you want to wring information out of a captured Redbrand. The party hadn't met it, so I didn't have the Redbrand give them the information yet.

So then they tried different ways of getting it out of him. That, I have no problem with. I just feel like it taxes believability to take someone hanging on the edge of death and beat him up over and over and have him be perfectly fine and ready for another round of it.

When the wizard decided to use Shocking Grasp, I just said, "he dies" because it made sense. I said it without thinking, and after reflecting about it later on I realized that since it was a melee spell attack I should have let him get KO'd. So I came here to see if there was a better way.

Ahh... the old "pass this DC to continue" conundrum. Remember, it was to get more useful information (ran through this already, Starter Set is pretty solid stuff). That means you can respond to this extra info in several ways:

(giving them the info)
a) if they role play well the whole interrogation scene, just give it to them. remember, ignoble acts discovered does spread reputation.

b) during the middle of role play you can have someone attempt an Insight(wisdom) check to see whether or not to give the DC check advantage. Or lower the DC. Or allow the Help action.

(not giving them the info)
c) not give them the information and let them run with the consequences. unless it's mission critical (which you should just have it supplied by another source, like NPC or clue), nothing wrong with 'incomplete success'.

d) "fast forward" that regardless of their efforts they are getting nothing useful from the captive. this way you save time, keep the gritty stuff off-scene, and end up getting to the same result. then leave the consequences of reputation for getting discovered looming. torture gets nothing useful and corrupts the torturer, moving along.