Quote from: Bobloblah;831707Considering that all players (hundreds-of-thousands or more, in D&D's case) have access to the same rulebook and character sheet, it would seem, a priori, that those are not what make a character unique. Unless you're working with a different definition of unique than the rest of us...

I don't play with the hundreds or thousands or more players.  I play with the people sitting in front of me who I've invited to play with me or joined in playing.

Linefallow Falcon may be exactly like hundreds of other mecha pilots out in the wider world in his build, but as far as my world is concerned he's unique.

That Linefallow Falcon has the exact same stats as Curvenemy Peregrine run by a guy in Timbuktu doesn't matter one tiny bit to me.

It's when Linefallow Falcon has the same exact stats as Rightangleacquaintance Owl in the same exact group I'm playing in that it's a problem.

Quote from: Gabriel2;831711It's when Linefallow Falcon has the same exact stats as Rightangleacquaintance Owl in the same exact group I'm playing in that it's a problem.

Abuse of the word "unique" aside (along with the improbability of two characters at a single table having identical "stats"), why is this a problem at your table (as in: what are the specific negative consequences)?

Quote from: Bobloblah;831714Abuse of the word "unique" aside (along with the improbability of two characters at a single table having identical "stats"), why is this a problem at your table (as in: what are the specific negative consequences)?

It doesn't happen lately for obvious reasons.  But this really sucked in my Robotech years where the only differences between Veritech Pilots were their Physical Prowess stat and their role play component.

But when multiple characters at the table are mechanically identical or extremely similar, they will usually take identical course of action when mechanics are involved.  So you get two characters doing the same things.

I can certainly differentiate my character through my role playing contribution.  But the mechanics are part of the fun too.  If I didn't want to engage with the mechanics, I'd dispense with them.  So, I'd like to feel like there is some difference in my character mechanically from the guy with the same type of the character across the table.

Quote from: Gabriel2;831726It doesn't happen lately for obvious reasons.

I'm afraid the reasons aren't obvious to me. Why not?

Quote from: Gabriel2;831726But this really sucked in my Robotech years where the only differences between Veritech Pilots were their Physical Prowess stat and their role play component.

But when multiple characters at the table are mechanically identical or extremely similar, they will usually take identical course of action when mechanics are involved.  So you get two characters doing the same things.

The mind boggles. I have never seen two characters do the same thing because they had the same stats (and I've played plenty of Robotech). Because whatever it was made the most sense within the context of the game world, on the other hand? Sure, often. But I take it you're saying you know they took the same action because there wasn't some mechanical widget to differentiate them at that moment in the game - do I understand that correctly?

Characters have (in theory) an infinite number of options open to them in an RPG. That's the medium's primary strength. The idea that the limit of what you can do is defined by what is printed on your character sheet is... crazy. That doesn't mean mechanics are irrelevant/aren't being engaged with, or that one needs to "dispense with them"... that's just a strawman.

I'm not really sure you've answered my question, at least, not directly. What is it about the mechanical difference between your character and the one across the table that matters to you? Is it the desire to be mechanically "better" at something? Do you feel trapped with an optimal choice based on mechanics? I'm looking for real specifics as to why you'd like to "feel like there is some difference in my character mechanically."

Quote from: Exploderwizard;831647Spin it however you like, the simple truth is that the only unique things about a character to make it special come from the player, not a rulebook or the character sheet.

Then why would it matter if everyone brings a fully-optimized cookie-cutter build? If the uniqueness of a character comes from the player and not the rules used to make the character, the mechanics a player uses should be largely irrelevant, except those that impact how the player plays the character.

Even if two characters have the exact same stat array, they can still be played differently. Look at the example from the 2e PH: the example at the end of the chapter on ability scores gives two very different ways the exact same stats can be played.

Quote from: BobloblahWhat is it about the mechanical difference between your character and the one across the table that matters to you? Is it the desire to be mechanically "better" at something? Do you feel trapped with an optimal choice based on mechanics? I'm looking for real specifics as to why you'd like to "feel like there is some difference in my character mechanically."

For the same reason that people get weirded out by the idea of having a clone. We thrive on personal identity; we like the idea that we are each unique in our own ways. Playing a character that is exactly or nearly-exactly identical to another one is weird and off-putting; we don't like the idea that we aren't unique in some fashion, and while RP can negate some of that, if we interact with the game world largely through mechanics, no amount of RP is going to overcome the fact that these characters "feel" identical.

Quote from: Sommerjon;831701:rolleyes::rolleyes:

The rulebook and character sheet is what the player uses to make the character unique.

[Yoda] That is why you fail [Yoda]

Quote from: GnomeWorks;831733Then why would it matter if everyone brings a fully-optimized cookie-cutter build? If the uniqueness of a character comes from the player and not the rules used to make the character, the mechanics a player uses should be largely irrelevant, except those that impact how the player plays the character.

CORRECTAMUNDO!!  It doesn't matter if several people are playing tricked out fighters with the same stat spread, feats, abilities, and gear. What makes each one unique is the player behind the character and how he/she brings it to life.

Likewise, it doesn't matter if these same players all played OD&D fighting men with the same 3d6 in order stat array. It would still be up to the player to provide that something special that makes a character memorable.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;831733For the same reason that people get weirded out by the idea of having a clone. We thrive on personal identity; we like the idea that we are each unique in our own ways. Playing a character that is exactly or nearly-exactly identical to another one is weird and off-putting; we don't like the idea that we aren't unique in some fashion, and while RP can negate some of that, if we interact with the game world largely through mechanics, no amount of RP is going to overcome the fact that these characters "feel" identical.

The stop interacting with game world through mechanics and start exploring the game world through the act of playing a character. There is so much shit that is a problem because some players aren't interacting with the game world at all they instead interact with the mechanics.

Such players engage the game as a series of numbers puzzles and everything else is meaningless backdrop. There is a lot more to exploring a fictional world than DC's and bonuses but some players just can't get past them. When presented with something in the game world the first questions are; which widget do I need to use? and what's the DC?  That is interacting with the mechanics instead of the game world.

Quote from: Bobloblah;831732I'm afraid the reasons aren't obvious to me. Why not?

I feel like I've been prefacing all my posts lately with this, so I figured I'd dispense with it.  I prefer single player/single GM games.  Duplicate PCs aren't a problem with that kind of arrangement.

QuoteThe mind boggles. I have never seen two characters do the same thing because they had the same stats (and I've played plenty of Robotech). Because whatever it was made the most sense within the context of the game world, on the other hand? Sure, often. But I take it you're saying you know they took the same action because there wasn't some mechanical widget to differentiate them at that moment in the game - do I understand that correctly?

I admittedly misspoke.  I didn't mean literally identical.  But when all characters have the same number of attacks, the same bonuses to do things, the same skill percentages, and even halfway the same skill lists, as well as no meaningful difference between an attribute of 3 and an attribute of 15, they do tend to do the same things when they need to invoke mechanics.

QuoteI'm not really sure you've answered my question, at least, not directly. What is it about the mechanical difference between your character and the one across the table that matters to you?

I want to feel like the whole thing is "my guy."  My preference is to not feel like I merely grabbed a sheet off a tablet of pre-gens and filled in the name and bought a couple of pieces of equipment.  I can do that if I need to.  I'm not saying role playing is an inconsequential part.  It's half of the whole.

Quote from: Gabriel2;831747I feel like I've been prefacing all my posts lately with this, so I figured I'd dispense with it.  I prefer single player/single GM games.  Duplicate PCs aren't a problem with that kind of arrangement.

Ah, ok. Hadn't seen you post that previously.

Quote from: Gabriel2;831747I want to feel like the whole thing is "my guy."  My preference is to not feel like I merely grabbed a sheet off a tablet of pre-gens and filled in the name and bought a couple of pieces of equipment.  I can do that if I need to.  I'm not saying role playing is an inconsequential part.  It's half of the whole.

What if you didn't know what was on the other player's character sheet?

Quote from: Critias;830871They're not your kids, you're not supposed to be trying to "wean" them off of anything.  They're your friends.  Play games with them that you all have fun playing.

Yeah this. I've never liked post about teaching people a "better" way to play or have fun. "Weaning them off" their preference is bad way to put it as it comes across as incredibly patronizing like you're showing them a more grown up way to enjoy something that's basically Let's Pretend.

If you want to try out a a different play style I'd suggest just sitting down and talking to them like adults. Sell your idea and why you think it might be fun. I'd guess you're all friends or at least friendly so they might want to give it a shot.

Quote from: Nexus;831749Yeah this. I've never liked post about teaching people a "better" way to play or have fun. "Weaning them off" their preference is bad way to put it as it comes across as incredibly patronizing like you're showing them a more grown up way to enjoy something that's basically Let's Pretend.

If you read more than the first post, the OP already addressed this. The rest of the thread addresses the rest of your post from various angles.

Quote from: Bobloblah;831748What if you didn't know what was on the other player's character sheet?

Then admittedly it might not bother me for a little bit, but upon exploring my character's mechanical abilities, I would eventually realize they were mechanically the same character.  And it would start bugging me at that point.  I'd want to mechanically differentiate my character in some way.

I do think there are multiple factors at that point.  Far more than I can hypothesize about.  I do also feel there's a certain degree of self correction which automatically happens because of campaign play.

Quote from: Bobloblah;831753If you read more than the first post,

Well, obviously I read more than the first post since I replied to the second one.

Quotethe OP already addressed this.

That doesn't change my opinion of the phrasing and the attitude which is, IMO, all to common.

QuoteThe rest of the thread addresses the rest of your post from various angles.

And none of that changes my opinion on how the OP should proceed. That's what I stated.

 You seem abruptly hostile for no reason.

Quote from: Nexus;831756And how does that effect my opinion which is all I stated. You seem abruptly hostile for no reason.

No reason other than....the Internet.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;831743CORRECTAMUNDO!!  It doesn't matter if several people are playing tricked out fighters with the same stat spread, feats, abilities, and gear. What makes each one unique is the player behind the character and how he/she brings it to life.

When I think of my memorable characters from the past, what I recall is *not* their stats, abilities, or powers.

YMMV.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;831743CORRECTAMUNDO!!  It doesn't matter if several people are playing tricked out fighters with the same stat spread, feats, abilities, and gear. What makes each one unique is the player behind the character and how he/she brings it to life.

You didn't answer my question.

Why does it matter if they bring "tricked out" characters to the table? Mechanical optimization does not preclude solid roleplaying.