I'm slowly reading my way through the ACKS core book (I am presently a few pages into Chapter 7: Campaign). One thing that becomes apparent to me is that the evolution of the PCs and what they do once they reach mid levels depends heavily on two factors in the game: the wealth they accumulated over time, and the down time they have at their disposition to use that wealth and start investing in stuff, like researching spells, building constructs or undead servants, and later building the strongholds, sanctums, dungeons and hideouts.
Now, it looks to me like Chapter 9: Treasure goes into the detail of the wealth repartition per challenge faced, monsters who have a lair in the dungeon, magic items and so on, so forth. Is there a table or guidelines anywhere presenting the expected wealth accumulated by characters per level? It seems to me that would be particularly useful when generating NPCs, or when one wants to play directly at the level of domain building and management in the game by starting with higher-level starting PCs. I'm not finding these guidelines in the book. Are they included?
Second, the amount of down time between exploration adventures for the PCs. Does the game provide advice on that score? It seems the game sort of assumes that there will be weeks or months between outings after a certain point in the campaign, but I'm not sure exactly what kind of downtime and when is expected from the rules' baseline on costs and time spent on research, domain building and the like. Is the campaign supposed to evolve into a sort of "Pendragon RPG" deal, where you role play the fief's or kingdom's or domain's management over the course of a few weeks and then inject a bunch of adventures in between? Am I missing something that's covered in the rules book, or is this left entirely up to the DM?
Quote from: Benoist;559667I'm slowly reading my way through the ACKS core book (I am presently a few pages into Chapter 7: Campaign). One thing that becomes apparent to me is that the evolution of the PCs and what they do once they reach mid levels depends heavily on two factors in the game: the wealth they accumulated over time, and the down time they have at their disposition to use that wealth and start investing in stuff, like researching spells, building constructs or undead servants, and later building the strongholds, sanctums, dungeons and hideouts.
Now, it looks to me like Chapter 9: Treasure goes into the detail of the wealth repartition per challenge faced, monsters who have a lair in the dungeon, magic items and so on, so forth. Is there a table or guidelines anywhere presenting the expected wealth accumulated by characters per level? It seems to me that would be particularly useful when generating NPCs, or when one wants to play directly at the level of domain building and management in the game by starting with higher-level starting PCs. I'm not finding these guidelines in the book. Are they included?
Second, the amount of down time between exploration adventures for the PCs. Does the game provide advice on that score? It seems the game sort of assumes that there will be weeks or months between outings after a certain point in the campaign, but I'm not sure exactly what kind of downtime and when is expected from the rules' baseline on costs and time spent on research, domain building and the like. Is the campaign supposed to evolve into a sort of "Pendragon RPG" deal, where you role play the fief's or kingdom's or domain's management over the course of a few weeks and then inject a bunch of adventures in between? Am I missing something that's covered in the rules book, or is this left entirely up to the DM?
I don't have the book, yet, but could downtime be inferred by the rates for natural healing given? Or is there tons of magical healing available?
Quote from: Bobloblah;559668I don't have the book, yet, but could downtime be inferred by the rates for natural healing given? Or is there tons of magical healing available?
The Cleric's spell progression is on par with the Moldvay Expert rules. Spellcasters can scribe scrolls and brew potions by 5th level (ACKS 117), which is a difference from Moldvay Expert, where all magic item production by PCs starts at name level (X51).
A character will naturally recover 1d3 HPs per full day of complete rest (ACKS 105). Characters with the Healing proficiency can actually improve that natural healing rate (up to another 1d3 recovered, apparently, ACKS 61).
That doesn't answer these questions to me, to be honest, or not any more than these rules would in a Classic D&D game, as it were.
One thing I have to say that really impresses me with this book is that the language, the text itself, is very well written and organized. The layout is clean and really nice. You can easily find what you are looking for. It's easy to read and comprehend, and lo and behold! There are TONS of actual examples included to help you understand the dry rules.
This book is a model of clarity when it comes to the presentation and explanation of the rules to a newcomer to the game, especially those with modern sensibilities in terms of prose (i.e. short, to the point sentences using straightforward language and the like).
Quote from: Benoist;559705One thing I have to say that really impresses me with this book is that the language, the text itself, is very well written and organized. The layout is clean and really nice. You can easily find what you are looking for. It's easy to read and comprehend, and lo and behold! There are TONS of actual examples included to help you understand the dry rules.
This book is a model of clarity when it comes to the presentation and explanation of the rules to a newcomer to the game, especially those with modern sensibilities in terms of prose (i.e. short, to the point sentences using straightforward language and the like).
Just wanted to second this. Got the game recently so I could play in an online game, and it's a pretty easy to use book.
I didn't find anything on starting characters at higher level. Definitely a game where one would want to try that out, since the higher levels and domain management are a big part of the appeal here.
Quote from: Benoist;559692
That doesn't answer these questions to me, to be honest, or not any more than these rules would in a Classic D&D game, as it were.
Fair enough. In my experience the rate the party could reasonably heal at was
the determining factor in downtime. In all pre-3.x editions it increased with levels largely because magical healing never kept pace with total hit point progression across the party, and natural healing was extremely slow.
Quote from: Benoist;559705One thing I have to say that really impresses me with this book is that the language, the text itself, is very well written and organized. The layout is clean and really nice. You can easily find what you are looking for. It's easy to read and comprehend, and lo and behold! There are TONS of actual examples included to help you understand the dry rules.
This book is a model of clarity when it comes to the presentation and explanation of the rules to a newcomer to the game, especially those with modern sensibilities in terms of prose (i.e. short, to the point sentences using straightforward language and the like).
You're not really helping me with my attempt to hold off on buying it.
I think you are over analyzing the mechanics. What it sounds like the issue is that you are not comfortable with time compression within a D&D campaign. It like a six month sea voyage. Are you going to play out every day? Or skip to the arrival? Or something in between. However you and your players like to handle that sea voyage is the way to go with the domain system.
I would recommend is you continue to work out the "World in Motion." and hit the real-time button when a complication occurs that the players need to deal with. The campaigns will be paced by the frequency of complications.
The main challenge is creating the support you will need in generating these complications as most older edition are oriented more towards the players travelling through the landscape then things that happen in a single location. I am not sure how well ACKS addresses this but I recall it does have some support in this regard.
So a hypothetical campaign will look like this when the players start messing with domains.
gameday 465 to gameday 467
gameday 467 to gameday 469
gameday 469 to gameday 474
gameday 474 to gameday 534 (60 days)
gameday 534 to gameday 544
gameday 544 to gameday 744 (200 days)
gameday 744 to gameday 746
gameday 746 to gameday 776 (30 days)
gameday 776 to gameday 782
etc, etc, etc
The event adjudication is based on whatever been set up for world in motion and then there the random stuff. Note that I am pulling the xp number out of thin air. The point is that ACKS grants XP for the income earned and activities involved with domain and it is mostly time based.
I highly recommend the Cities book by Midkemia Press (http://www.midkemia.com/Products.html). In it there is a section called Character Catch up and it is designed to handle when a character starts out behind in time from the other characters. It generates adventure possibilities among other things. The whole thing prints out nicely into four booklets using Adobe Reader.
Personally I rarely deal with this issue as my groups invariably want to grind out every damn day. The download for them is that they rarely get into more than one or two cycles of domain management before the campaign ends naturally. I.e. they resolve most of their goals.
I will play out some more cycles/turns, note the general trend and use that for background for the next campaign of the Majestic Wilderlands which usually jumps ahead two years from the previous campaign.
Quote from: estar;559748I think you are over analyzing the mechanics.
Well not really no. I don't have that feeling anyway. What I'm trying to determine is how things are supposed to unfold from 5th level onward and how to manage it in terms of time compression and actual real time activities at the game table.
Quote from: estar;559748What it sounds like the issue is that you are not comfortable with time compression within a D&D campaign. It like a six month sea voyage. Are you going to play out every day? Or skip to the arrival? Or something in between. However you and your players like to handle that sea voyage is the way to go with the domain system.
I would recommend is you continue to work out the "World in Motion." and hit the real-time button when a complication occurs that the players need to deal with. The campaigns will be paced by the frequency of complications.
Ok so for you that's basically organic - it's a natural consequence of actual play in the world in motion. Doesn't that lead potentially to widely varying levels of wealth depending on the actions, adventure opportunities seized and other activities of the players between campaigns? i.e. not two ACKS campaigns will be alike then. It's just a function of what happens and what the players do or do not do as the campaign unfolds.
Quote from: estar;559748The main challenge is creating the support you will need in generating these complications as most older edition are oriented more towards the players travelling through the landscape then things that happen in a single location. I am not sure how well ACKS addresses this but I recall it does have some support in this regard.
So a hypothetical campaign will look like this when the players start messing with domains.
gameday 465 to gameday 467
gameday 467 to gameday 469
gameday 469 to gameday 474
gameday 474 to gameday 534 (60 days)
gameday 534 to gameday 544
gameday 544 to gameday 744 (200 days)
gameday 744 to gameday 746
gameday 746 to gameday 776 (30 days)
gameday 776 to gameday 782
etc, etc, etc
The event adjudication is based on whatever been set up for world in motion and then there the random stuff. Note that I am pulling the xp number out of thin air. The point is that ACKS grants XP for the income earned and activities involved with domain and it is mostly time based.
I highly recommend the Cities book by Midkemia Press (http://www.midkemia.com/Products.html). In it there is a section called Character Catch up and it is designed to handle when a character starts out behind in time from the other characters. It generates adventure possibilities among other things. The whole thing prints out nicely into four booklets using Adobe Reader.
So the Cities book provides tables on which you can roll during down time to determine whether events unfold or some adventure opportunity presents itself or whatnot, is that it? That would be used in the "roll or adjudicate events" sections of your example here, correct? Or I make up my own tables and probabilities depending on the current activities in and around the domain, the current political climates, state of the security of the domain and whatnot.. whatever I can think of to make it consistent at the game table?
Awesome example by the way. That helps a lot.
Quote from: Benoist;559752So the Cities book provides tables on which you can roll during down time to determine whether events unfold or some adventure opportunity presents itself or whatnot, is that it? That would be used in the "roll or adjudicate events" sections of your example here, correct?
Yes, but they are oriented to individual characters so you know. The section is called character catch up.
Quote from: Benoist;559752Or I make up my own tables and probabilities depending on the current activities in and around the domain, the current political climates, state of the security of the domain and whatnot.. whatever I can think of to make it consistent at the game table?
You will need to do this as well. Basically Character Catch-up focuses at the character level and the above on the big picture stuff. Both will provide complications that will set the stage for the roleplaying session.
Quote from: Benoist;559752Ok so for you that's basically organic - it's a natural consequence of actual play in the world in motion. Doesn't that lead potentially to widely varying levels of wealth depending on the actions, adventure opportunities seized and other activities of the players between campaigns? i.e. not two ACKS campaigns will be alike then. It's just a function of what happens and what the players do or do not do as the campaign unfolds.
For me anyway new campaigns means new characters. The old characters become part of the background. There only been one or two time we gone back and continued an old set of characters. So I don't have a lot of actual play advice for your questions above.
One of the few times it did occurred resulted in a reversal of roles. In the first campaign D was the captain of raiding ships and T was the leader of a group of mercenaries in his employ. In the second campaign it was just T running a group of mercenaries then D rejoined after six months or so, but T remained the leader. Eventually T became a Duke and then turned around and made D a count and leader of all his merchant activities.
So I guess I would say, yeah let die and choices fall wherever they land even if it results in one character doing considerably better than others. I find as long it is considered fair the others will accept it.
OK So now the $100 question for those who've read farther into the book than I did. Is this type of advice included in the Campaign, Secrets chapters, or at least touched upon one way or the other?
Rules for making characters at higher levels are on p. 253. That gives some indication of how much wealth characters at "adventurer", "conqueror", and "king" level have at their disposal; note that much of this will be tied up in property, real estate, henchmen, and the like. The standard of living table on p. 39 and the henchman monthly fee on p. 51 are useful for showing how much income and expenses a character of a given level might have.
The basic engine of downtime is recovery from injury. A higher-level OD&D or B/X campaign tends to have one adventure per month - one week traveling to and from the dungeon, one spent exploring it, followed by two weeks spent waiting for characters to come out of the enforced inactivity resulting from raise dead. The mortal wounds table preserves this pacing on average and extends it to lower-level characters by making mandatory bed rest a result of most brushes with death.
ACKS games will tend to have roughly similar economies because of the basic premise that characters earn 4 XP from treasure for each 1 XP they earn from combat. This is explicit in both ACKS and B/X, although the result is more consistently supported by ACKS' treasure tables and more thoroughly integrated into the setting assumptions.
Quote from: Tavis;559788Rules for making characters at higher levels are on p. 253. That gives some indication of how much wealth characters at "adventurer", "conqueror", and "king" level have at their disposal; note that much of this will be tied up in property, real estate, henchmen, and the like. The standard of living table on p. 39 and the henchman monthly fee on p. 51 are useful for showing how much income and expenses a character of a given level might have.
Ah yes, I see that now. Thanks for the page references!
Quote from: Tavis;559788The basic engine of downtime is recovery from injury. A higher-level OD&D or B/X campaign tends to have one adventure per month - one week traveling to and from the dungeon, one spent exploring it, followed by two weeks spent waiting for characters to come out of the enforced inactivity resulting from raise dead. The mortal wounds table preserves this pacing on average and extends it to lower-level characters by making mandatory bed rest a result of most brushes with death.
OK. That clarifies the basic assumptions for me. Thanks for the pointers, Tavis. :)
Quote from: Benoist;559667Is there a table or guidelines anywhere presenting the expected wealth accumulated by characters per level? It seems to me that would be particularly useful when generating NPCs, or when one wants to play directly at the level of domain building and management in the game by starting with higher-level starting PCs. I'm not finding these guidelines in the book. Are they included?
Second, the amount of down time between exploration adventures for the PCs. Does the game provide advice on that score? It seems the game sort of assumes that there will be weeks or months between outings after a certain point in the campaign, but I'm not sure exactly what kind of downtime and when is expected from the rules' baseline on costs and time spent on research, domain building and the like. Is the campaign supposed to evolve into a sort of "Pendragon RPG" deal, where you role play the fief's or kingdom's or domain's management over the course of a few weeks and then inject a bunch of adventures in between? Am I missing something that's covered in the rules book, or is this left entirely up to the DM?
Thanks for your kind words on the rules.
You're not missing anything. We don't specify how much downtime the PCs should have in between adventures. This will, partly, be a measure of player taste - some groups are much more "aggressive" than others, and constantly heading to the next dungeon. Others are more "conservative" and think nothing of spending a few weeks in town to craft scrolls.
That said, there are some implicit mechanics built into the rules. There are three game mechanics that serve as involuntary time sinks:
1) The time required to travel between town and the adventure locale (given the slow rate of ACKS travel, generally 1-3 days at low level, and 1 week or more for wilderness expeditions);
2) The time required to recover from a mortal wound or restore life & limb spell (generally one or more weeks; see "Healing")
3) The time required to find hirelings or buy/sell equipment (generally one or more weeks; see "Equipment Availability" and "Hirelings, Henchmen, Mercs, and Specialists")
These time sinks are inevitable. Given the low hit points of PCs, at least half of the sessions of ACKS I've run have left one or more PCs reduced to 0 hit points or less. Each time this happens, the adventuring party will be looking at about 1 week of downtime, sometimes 2 weeks to a month. Even if the party just wants to replace fallen characters with new henchmen or mercenaries, it takes 1+ weeks in town to find and recruit such NPCs. The downtime will tend to increase at higher levels, as PCs use restore life and limb, which has quite long recovery times.
Counter to these time sinks are a variety of game mechanics that serve as "time fillers", e.g. voluntary activities players can pursue:
1) Performing magical research
2) Building strongholds
3) Running domains
4) Training soldiers
5) Populating sanctum dungeons
6) Trading and commerce
At low levels, the split tends to be about 50% adventuring, 50% down-time:
Day 1: Depart Town
Day 2-3: Travel
Day 4: Adventure; suffer casualties
Day 5-6: Travel
Day 7: Return to Town
Day 8-14: 1 week in town, hiring mercenaries/resting/shopping
Day 15: Depart town...
At higher levels, when PCs have the resources for longer expeditions, the split remains the same, but the intervals are longer:
Day 1: Depart Town
Day 2-7: Travel
Day 8-10: Adventure; suffer casualties
Day 11-16: Return to town
Day 17-31: 14 days in town, hiring mercenaries/resting/shopping/selling
Looks like Tavis beat me to it!
Quote from: amacris;559808Looks like Tavis beat me to it!
Ehehe. I guess he did, yes, but your own take on it is very helpful nonetheless! Thank you. :)