Didn't read all the replies, but yes, WW was always very politically correct. When I first entered rpg forum land in 2007-2008 I started posting on the WW forum and on Shadownessence (I dunno if that still excist) and I found it very stiffling. They weren't woke yet, because it didn't excist, but it was constantly walking on eggshells over there. You were not allowed to have a different opinion, they would close your topic, moderators would use BIG RED LETTERS with the capslock on, you would get dogpiled, suspensions and bans were used. I honestly thought they were very conservative, because that's the corner you expect censorship to come from. But no they were very progressive. So naturally they jumped unto the woke gravy train, they were always like that.

Greetings!

Back in the day, I bought several of the Vampire and Werewolf books--because "Vampires! Werewolves!" of course. Honestly, reading through the books turned me off from using their system or playing their games, because I immediately recognized them as being Progressive, Marxist shills. They have always been Marxist scum.

I didn't buy anymore of their books, either. The books overlow with Marxist, deconstructionist, nihilistic, and anti-Christian propaganda at every step.

Let them burn.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 27, 2022, 07:46:50 PM

With stake and sword, cross and flame
We will roam this blighted land...
For now we are the hunters;
The Hunters of the Damned.

👍👍👍

Came here to say more or less this.

White Wolf weren't woke, they were proto-woke.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2022, 09:22:29 AM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 25, 2022, 01:19:06 PM
Id say while not woke, they are the kinda 'pre-woke' that absolutely led to this point.
Almost all edgy 90s rebels have been the ones to most utterly embrace modern wokeness. Some get cancelled for being too 'edgy' for our time, but even then none of them ended up recanting or becoming introspective.

So have they always been woke? No, but thats because the term didn't exist back then. But wher ethey setting the stage for woke? Absolutely.

This is the point I make to old school Liberals that are living on Copium, about society going back to how it was in the 90's. Everything pushed in the 90's directly led to where we are now. The slippery slopes we laughed at were actually slippery.

It turns out the people writing WoD weren't actually fighting the system, they were just fighting a system that wasn't theirs. Once the system aligned with them, they embraced it like a lover.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2022, 09:22:29 AM
It turns out the people writing WoD weren't actually fighting the system, they were just fighting a system that wasn't theirs. Once the system aligned with them, they embraced it like a lover.

Isn't that the case for everyone though? Unless you're just "against the status quo" in general, which always seemed like an odd stance to me.

Quote from: Trond on December 30, 2022, 05:06:06 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2022, 09:22:29 AM
It turns out the people writing WoD weren't actually fighting the system, they were just fighting a system that wasn't theirs. Once the system aligned with them, they embraced it like a lover.

Isn't that the case for everyone though? Unless you're just "against the status quo" in general, which always seemed like an odd stance to me.

Well only morons and lunatics are "against the system" in the sense of wanting to abolish all government and hierarchies. That's just impossible with the population of humans we have.

But the 90's political-Left "against the system" was sold as anti-censorship, anti-corporate, general anti-government-overreach. None of these things need be inherent to any system, and both sides, on paper at least, should be agreed on the concept, if disagreeing on degree and focus.

The lefty activists of the 90's have revealed themselves to be MASSIVE hypocrites, because they embraced every single thing they supposedly 'fought' against, the absolute second their tribe took over the reins. Rage Against The Machine pushing mandated government vaccine and lockdown programs are an excellent example.

Quote from: Trond on December 30, 2022, 05:06:06 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2022, 09:22:29 AM
It turns out the people writing WoD weren't actually fighting the system, they were just fighting a system that wasn't theirs. Once the system aligned with them, they embraced it like a lover.

Isn't that the case for everyone though? Unless you're just "against the status quo" in general, which always seemed like an odd stance to me.

It was also more complicated than that because none of this stuff happened in a vacuum. 90s liberals were also reacting to the culture of the 80s and earlier where the Christian conservative Moral Majority tried to impose their values on everyone else, trying to ban everything, branding it as Satanic or whatnot. As well as the rampant homophobia that was going on, with gay teens committing suicide or ending up in the streets cuz their Christian parents wouldn't accept them, and a bunch of other stuff that was going on culturally at the time.

And like I tried to establish in my earlier post, many of the stuff that we think of as "woke" wasn't even a thing at the time. Nobody outside of the deepest bowels of Academia had ever heard of the so-called "gender-binary", or the idea of pronouns, puberty blockers, or dead naming or whatever. Identity-based activism wasn't homogenized yet into a single movement that consumed all of progressivism to the exclusion of class-based concerns and pinned all identities against each other. All of this stuff came with Intersectional Feminism (another obscure topic unknown outside of academia) and its spread through social media, aided by algorithms, censorship of dissenting voices and the spread of false narratives by the mainstream media.

But many of the dissenting voices fighting this early on where themselves Liberal, with Milo Yiannopoulos being one of the few exceptions, who lashed himself onto this during GamerGate, when all of this stuff started to blow up. But most of the prevalent voices early were at least tangentially liberal, like Sargon/Carl Benyamin (who was essentially a Social Liberal, who believed in stuff like universal healthcare, despite calling himself a "Classical" Liberal, and not turning more conservative till much later on) or The Amazing Atheist/TJ Kirk (who turned into a douche later on).

They did a poll early on during GamerGate and most of the people involved were left-leaning. It wasn't till later that the movement got associated with the right—partly due to the media framing it as such, and partly due to people like Milo using it to promote conservatism and many coalescing around that vision, or flipping over to the "right" due to binary thinking ("if leftists are wrong, then I must be a right-winger, cuz it can't be that both sides are wrong or that these "wings" are irrelevant pointless labels. The truth has to be in one of two sides and if one doesn't have it, then the other must be the truth.").

But if wokeism today truly did follow a straight line from the vacuum of 90s liberalism and 90s liberals were directly responsible for it, then how come it was also 90s liberals who were the ones primarily exposing it back when nobody had ever heard of SJWs and the term "woke" didn't even exist yet?

Quote from: SHARK on December 29, 2022, 05:56:19 PM
Greetings!

Back in the day, I bought several of the Vampire and Werewolf books--because "Vampires! Werewolves!" of course. Honestly, reading through the books turned me off from using their system or playing their games, because I immediately recognized them as being Progressive, Marxist shills. They have always been Marxist scum.

I didn't buy anymore of their books, either. The books overlow with Marxist, deconstructionist, nihilistic, and anti-Christian propaganda at every step.

Let them burn.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

WOW! Even I think that's a little harsh.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig on December 29, 2022, 10:04:02 PM
Came here to say more or less this.

White Wolf weren't woke, they were proto-woke.

Yes!

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 30, 2022, 06:18:42 AM
Well only morons and lunatics are "against the system" in the sense of wanting to abolish all government and hierarchies. That's just impossible with the population of humans we have.

But the 90's political-Left "against the system" was sold as anti-censorship, anti-corporate, general anti-government-overreach. None of these things need be inherent to any system, and both sides, on paper at least, should be agreed on the concept, if disagreeing on degree and focus.

The lefty activists of the 90's have revealed themselves to be MASSIVE hypocrites, because they embraced every single thing they supposedly 'fought' against, the absolute second their tribe took over the reins. Rage Against The Machine pushing mandated government vaccine and lockdown programs are an excellent example.

Aren't you not reading a bit too much into this? I mean, I think WW needed a big bad in their games so they had an overarching conspiracy in most of them like Pentex (big business) or the Technocracy (big government). They could use those in their metaplot books.

QuoteThat's both un-woke, and an EXCELLENT reason that the chosen one needs to be female.

Needs? Why? Like... only way for Anti-Vampire toxin to be linked to her sex is her Mitochondrial DNA.
Passed only in female lineages.

But if that's so - then chances that Last Daughter female bloodline gonna spread through all mankind is very very slim.
In fact even if it's dominant autosomal gene then chances of spreading through all mankind is virtually non-existent - unless some massive vampire plague would cause it to be vital for survival.
Considering vampire's presence did not stop mankind to grow from less than 1 bln to 8 bln in last 200 years... I hardly see such chance, from genetic perspective.

If this blood could be harness to create dunno artificial anti-vampire virus... then maybe. By just making babies... nah.

Were they successful back in the day because they were woke (proto-woke) or because TSR fumbled and Vampires! Werewolves was there to fill in the void a bit?

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 16, 2023, 10:08:39 AM
Were they successful back in the day because they were woke (proto-woke) or because TSR fumbled and Vampires! Werewolves was there to fill in the void a bit?

I think it was more that they found an untapped market and zeitgeist that allowed them to flourish while TSR's poor decisions led them to flounder. But that market and that zeitgeist doesn't exist anymore, so now they're floundering and trying to survive by whoring out the IP for bad video games.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 16, 2023, 10:47:36 AM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 16, 2023, 10:08:39 AM
Were they successful back in the day because they were woke (proto-woke) or because TSR fumbled and Vampires! Werewolves was there to fill in the void a bit?

I think it was more that they found an untapped market and zeitgeist that allowed them to flourish while TSR's poor decisions led them to flounder. But that market and that zeitgeist doesn't exist anymore, so now they're floundering and trying to survive by whoring out the IP for bad video games.

Well, and a big part of the problem with losing the Zeitgeist is that all the 90's cool rebels their PC cliques (clans, tribes, traditions) emulated all grew up and became "the Man" that genuine 21st century rebels oppose.

They literally can't grok the idea that they are now the establishment and so all their efforts to make their archetypes into underdogs feels disingenuous.

"Oh, woe are the poor elites! Will no one weep for them as them suffers microagressions at the hands of a dying middle-class who lost their jobs and homes and families due to the elites offshoring all their prospects to third-world slave labor camps so they could maximize their profits?"

All the WoD lore basically amounts to that... snowflakes fighting the horror of micro-aggressions in a world completely disconnected from the modern one.

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 30, 2022, 07:39:13 AM
It was also more complicated than that because none of this stuff happened in a vacuum. 90s liberals were also reacting to the culture of the 80s and earlier where the Christian conservative Moral Majority tried to impose their values on everyone else, trying to ban everything, branding it as Satanic or whatnot. As well as the rampant homophobia that was going on, with gay teens committing suicide or ending up in the streets cuz their Christian parents wouldn't accept them, and a bunch of other stuff that was going on culturally at the time.

I don't want to derail the thread with politics too much but this type of comment is simply false and slanderous. The sociological data is in, and gay teens aren't any less suicidal today. In fact, rate of suicidality of these groups has actually increased over time. The issue is, and always was, that these people suffer from a variety of mental illnesses. Encouraging it has only made the problem worse.

The people pushing this false meme, (including WhiteWolf at the time) were never interested in truth or actually helping people who need help, they were only interested in bludgeoning "wrongthinkers" and blaming them for things that aren't in their control to begin with.

Quote from: Zelen on January 16, 2023, 12:20:21 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 30, 2022, 07:39:13 AM
It was also more complicated than that because none of this stuff happened in a vacuum. 90s liberals were also reacting to the culture of the 80s and earlier where the Christian conservative Moral Majority tried to impose their values on everyone else, trying to ban everything, branding it as Satanic or whatnot. As well as the rampant homophobia that was going on, with gay teens committing suicide or ending up in the streets cuz their Christian parents wouldn't accept them, and a bunch of other stuff that was going on culturally at the time.

I don't want to derail the thread with politics too much but this type of comment is simply false and slanderous. The sociological data is in, and gay teens aren't any less suicidal today. In fact, rate of suicidality of these groups has actually increased over time. The issue is, and always was, that these people suffer from a variety of mental illnesses. Encouraging it has only made the problem worse.

The people pushing this false meme, (including WhiteWolf at the time) were never interested in truth or actually helping people who need help, they were only interested in bludgeoning "wrongthinkers" and blaming them for things that aren't in their control to begin with.

It's been my experience that a lot of nerds are very insecure and frankly have issues with arrested development. Wokeness allowed them to indulge their pettier sides with no consequences. But if I'm being honest, pre wokeness the nerds always wanted to bully people. Assert that they are mentally superior to all others. It's just nowadays the nerds can be condescending and bully people and actually get praise for it publicly. Things like being anti corporate, anti establishment, anarchist, hippy and whatever else was just a way to assert their superiority due to aforementioned insecurity. And they are eternal victims so they're never wrong and it's everyone else's fault.   

M20A is so woke that I'm a little disturbed they managed to publish it without cognitive dissonance sneaking in and triggering a "Are we the baddies?" moment. Don't they flat-out describe the Technocracy as "The White Menace" for some insane reason? It's so ludicrous that I have trouble believing I didn't hallucinate that part.