Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 07:52:02 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 26, 2022, 07:38:18 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 06:15:59 PM

Quote from: rpgSeeker on December 26, 2022, 04:59:25 PM
No, white wolf used to be progressive, but not every form of progressivism is woke. Woke progressivism only became popular in the later half of the 2000s. Initially it equated itself with old school progressivism, but in many ways it is counter to it.

It is a shame how many progressives were all to happy to betray their old beliefs or otherwise unable to recognize the sham of woke progressivism.

Quote from: jhkim on December 26, 2022, 12:34:45 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2022, 02:03:56 AM
Werewolf the Apocalypse was the first RPG I ever GM'ed, and I did so at least once or twice a week, every week for years. It started as Werewolf, but branched it to a World Of Darkness game, but still very changers-based game. My friend ended up getting Vampire and Changeling.

We played it as a bunch of young teens, as male and working class, and it was mostly about cool monster fights. The programming slid off of us like water off a duck's back. In fact, if anything we had a good time poking fun at the proto-SJW parts.

I think RPGs are extremely poor vehicles for propaganda, because the GM and players control everything that happens. You're using your own imagination, which isn't constrained by what is written.

I played a Werewolf the Apocalypse campaign and a brief Mage the Ascension campaign. I hate the background of M:tA for having scientists as the evil oppressors keeping down free-thinking magicians, since I'm very pro-science in real life. But I could easily ignore those parts to play and poke fun at it, as you say.

The Technocratic Unions are not fighting for scientific progress.

If a scientist conducts research that the Union does not approve of they will shoot him in the head, destroy his corpse, and replace him with a clone. That clone will then sabotage his life's work.

Their standard approach to scientific research is suppression and control. Fighting for scientific progress is in-universe propaganda.

The Union are totalitarian technomages.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 01:42:48 PM
Yeah, I didn't like the propaganda. The consensus reality premise has tons of ramifications that never occurred to the authors. Among other things, it means that homeopathy, antivaxxer, and flat-earther beliefs would become true if they murdered all the non-believers. The current crop of books walk back on that by making the technocrats parrot American left-wing talking points, even though this makes no sense with a consensus reality premise.

I like the idea of players flavoring their magic after different magical styles like Hermeticism, Wicca, Taoism, mad science, reality hackers, or whatever. I would give that to all splats, not just mortal magicians. However, I would avoid explaining it in terms of consensus reality to avoid inadvertently promoting beliefs that are dangerous in real life.

The traditions aren't luddites either.

The common theme among them is self actualization. Heavy focus on learning, understanding, improving oneself. A large part of that is their need to understand their paradigm to a high degree. Don't throw away interesting stuff in favor of shallow aesthetics.

The second common theme among them is recognition and acceptance of different worldviews being able to interact and cooperate. That also requires a focus on how they believe the world functions. Throwing that away as well because you don't want to accidentally convince a player random shit (you won't, their mind will be made up about all of that way before they hit your table) is also sad.

Also your plan to murder people is a poor one. You wouldn't really be strengthening your paradigm, you'd just make reality more brittle until it kinda sorta might function, assuming you have enough of it left. Also it's impractical and the actual belief you'd convince people of is that you are pretty evil which - behold - would end up becoming the new actual reality.

-

Don't listen to the internet takes on the Traditions or the Union. Don't run them as 1-dimensional stereotypes. It's not fun. Science and technology can be used for both good and evil. The technocrats is an evil organisation with a few good people in it, the traditions is an good organization with a few evil people in it. Consensus reality has more depth to it than just 'belief defines reality'. It's what makes all of it fun. Without it you're just chucking boring sphere effects at random assortments of mooks. The setting having more depth than a simplistic 'science good, not science bad' is what has made the setting last for decades.

I don't give a fuck.

Then you're retarded. Do us a favor and eat some lead.

I was deep in the toxic WW fandom for years before I developed the antipathy I have now. I don't think highly of these games anymore, I'm not impressed with attempts at proselytizing, and I don't see any point in pretending otherwise to spare your feelings.

Please follow my advice and eat some lead.

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 26, 2022, 05:20:08 PMThis wasn't a natural or direct outgrowth of leftism or 90s liberalism. It was a PSYOP.

I consider that copium. 90% of most modern woke elements are logical progressions of philosophical underpinnings of the past.

The communist revolutionaries of Russia where very willing to debate and discuss before they further radicalized and started putting all their enemies to the wall or siberia.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 26, 2022, 08:33:21 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 26, 2022, 05:20:08 PMThis wasn't a natural or direct outgrowth of leftism or 90s liberalism. It was a PSYOP.

I consider that copium. 90% of most modern woke elements are logical progressions of philosophical underpinnings of the past.

The communist revolutionaries of Russia where very willing to debate and discuss before they further radicalized and started putting all their enemies to the wall or siberia.

I would have to give a shit about leftism or consider these political labels to have genuine value (as opposed to being nothing but purely tribal identifiers at this point) for it to be "copium". I don't. These labels are meaningless to me. I only care about the Truth on these matters, and the Truth is that you're engaging in hasty generalizations by selectively cherry-picking the bits that seem to superficially support your preconceptions while ignoring the greater context of everything else that's transpired leading up to our current circumstances, much the same way that BLM types selectively cherry-pick statistics on black people killed by cops and immediately jump to "racism", while ignoring statistics on black people having more police interactions and violent crime.

If people merely voicing opposition to actual oppression, like Jim Crow era policies (the actual philosophical underpinnings of the past), is a "logical" progression to giving kids puberty blockers now, then we're truly fucked as a species, cuz by that "logic" we wouldn't be able to fix anything in society, since any promotion of equal rights or opposition to (presumably) unjust laws would inevitably lead to mass hysteria and a complete communist takeover of society. So we might as well go back to slavery and let those in positions of power trample us and those around us unimpeded.

Power corrupts. It's a timeless phenomenon we see happen repeatedly. It's also a great theme for any roleplaying game involving superpowers and political conflict. Can you trust yourself to be a good counterculture punk and not fall prey to corruption? Or do you find it easier to indulge your base desires with all your new power?

Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
Yeah no, their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable. Most of their fanbase has always been insufferable. I started with mage the awakening and later mage the ascension as some of my first rpgs. Their old shit is edgy, new shit is cancer. I can thank mage 20th and phil brucato for almost single handedly killing my desire to ever play mage again.

M20 is the KS I am most saddened I joined.

The "fixed" language around traditions like the Brotherhood and the Sons of Ether led to my deluxe bound copy going to the shelf and never leaving.

And, yeah, 90s leftists were different if only as a veneer because they didn't have the power to do what the woke do. I won't say they didn't want to do it, but at worst they knew they couldn't and kept the mask on.

Not sure if that's better or worse.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 27, 2022, 11:31:12 AM

Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
Yeah no, their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable. Most of their fanbase has always been insufferable. I started with mage the awakening and later mage the ascension as some of my first rpgs. Their old shit is edgy, new shit is cancer. I can thank mage 20th and phil brucato for almost single handedly killing my desire to ever play mage again.

M20 is the KS I am most saddened I joined.

The "fixed" language around traditions like the Brotherhood and the Sons of Ether led to my deluxe bound copy going to the shelf and never leaving.

And, yeah, 90s leftists were different if only as a veneer because they didn't have the power to do what the woke do. I won't say they didn't want to do it, but at worst they knew they couldn't and kept the mask on.

Not sure if that's better or worse.

Yeah, didn't they rename it the Children of Ether? That's going to ruin their search engine optimization because that's the title of an anime.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2022, 12:00:48 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 27, 2022, 11:31:12 AM

Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
Yeah no, their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable. Most of their fanbase has always been insufferable. I started with mage the awakening and later mage the ascension as some of my first rpgs. Their old shit is edgy, new shit is cancer. I can thank mage 20th and phil brucato for almost single handedly killing my desire to ever play mage again.

M20 is the KS I am most saddened I joined.

The "fixed" language around traditions like the Brotherhood and the Sons of Ether led to my deluxe bound copy going to the shelf and never leaving.

And, yeah, 90s leftists were different if only as a veneer because they didn't have the power to do what the woke do. I won't say they didn't want to do it, but at worst they knew they couldn't and kept the mask on.

Not sure if that's better or worse.

Yeah, didn't they rename it the Children of Ether? That's going to ruin their search engine optimization because that's the title of an anime.

I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume the Werewolf version didn't make Black Furies gender inclusive though? For some reason this shit only ever flows one way.

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 26, 2022, 09:45:02 PMIf people merely voicing opposition to actual oppression, like Jim Crow era policies.

I feel thats somewhat reaching and conflating that anybody that ever was against [Bad thing] was a good leftist.
Again the communists had very good reasons to oppose the monarchy which was incompitent, and horrifically oppressive.

Anyway thats getting too into politics.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 27, 2022, 12:08:27 PMI'm going to go out on a limb, and assume the Werewolf version didn't make Black Furies gender inclusive though? For some reason this shit only ever flows one way.

They missed the time window for the trans inclusivity shit. Nowadays the Black Furies would be cancelled for being TURFs.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 27, 2022, 12:19:51 PMThey missed the time window for the trans inclusivity shit.

I just meant, you know, not casting out or killing all males as 'inferiors.' Since a group being named "Sons of" is horrific, but discarding males as trash is righteous.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 27, 2022, 12:19:51 PMNowadays the Black Furies would be cancelled for being TURFs.

Nah, they're just pull a DC comics modern Amazons. An island specifically just for women, but the new books have Trans-women Amazons, because who cares, nothing matters.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 27, 2022, 12:29:38 PMI just meant, you know, not casting out or killing all males as 'inferiors.' Since a group being named "Sons of" is horrific, but discarding males as trash is righteous

I know, it was a gag on my end. Somebody teaches the males to all identify as females (all it takes baby) and bam, now you can't do shit, or get Werewolf cancelled.
And yes of course I understand this is one sided hate. But thats so self evident Its like pointing out water is wet.

Paradox did force them to give it up. Now the tribe accepts anyone. In general Paradox scrubbed the tribes of any ethnic signifiers or restrictions on membership. Some like the Amerind tribes were even renamed for the sake of sensitivity, except that one Irish tribe that shares its name with right wing Irish political party the Fenians. When asked why, Paradox reportedly said "it's just a word." Yeah, the name of right wing political parties. You'd think they'd be in a hurry to change the name, especially since the Irish werewolves historically supported said party.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2022, 01:10:48 PM
Paradox did force them to give it up.

Im not really happy for change brought on by the barrel of a gun, but whatever.
Anyway as for what I got out of mage: I am absolutely aware this was not intended. It was intended as a 'fuck da system, sheep keepin me down!' thing.

But to me, I found it as a thing about how we all share reality, and how we have to learn to deal with each other and opinions we dislike. As a person who really values free speech (in law and in spirit) I found it resonated with me.

Before the 100% modern technocracit splats that just have them parrot modern talking points, there was a release where they where given villanous but still like...realistic and sympathetic  motivations for their beliefs beyond 'CAPITALIST GO BOOM BOOM!'
Like the transhumanistic cybernetic faction was given a POV character of a guy who was born with weak legs, so the faction allowed him to walk normally.

I know it can be taken as a 'fuck vaccinations!', but from my POV it was a 'Well you can, but that may not have the consequences you want it too'.

Edit: The only unsympathetic faction was the NWO which explicitely is the one the most least tolerant of opinions, and sees shaping not just what people do or how they do it, but what they think.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2022, 12:00:48 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 27, 2022, 11:31:12 AM

Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
Yeah no, their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable. Most of their fanbase has always been insufferable. I started with mage the awakening and later mage the ascension as some of my first rpgs. Their old shit is edgy, new shit is cancer. I can thank mage 20th and phil brucato for almost single handedly killing my desire to ever play mage again.

M20 is the KS I am most saddened I joined.

The "fixed" language around traditions like the Brotherhood and the Sons of Ether led to my deluxe bound copy going to the shelf and never leaving.

And, yeah, 90s leftists were different if only as a veneer because they didn't have the power to do what the woke do. I won't say they didn't want to do it, but at worst they knew they couldn't and kept the mask on.

Not sure if that's better or worse.

Yeah, didn't they rename it the Children of Ether? That's going to ruin their search engine optimization because that's the title of an anime.

No. I have the M20 right next to me. I looked it up just a minute ago to answer your question.

All the traditions with "problematic" names are STILL named that way. Akashics are still named the Akashic Brotherhood but are also sometimes called the Akashyana or just The Brotherhood

Sons of Ether are still called the Sons of Ether. Granted, sometimes they are called just Etherites, but thats not more feminist than just shortening a clumsily long name just like how Akashic brotherhood are just referred to Akashics.

Sure, sometimes the author writes Society of Ether but that thing has always been treated as more of a joke about how even traditional Traditionist want to look progressive, already back in the 90´s. If I were to rummage through the box I keep my 1st edition Mage books in, I could find a "angry letter to the editorial" written by one Son Daughter of Ether, Alexis Hastings, lamenting that the Tradition is nothing about "A boys club Stuck in the Victorian times who still mourns letting women vote" in the 1st ed Son of Ether tradition book.

P.S I was wrong. It wasnt Alexis Hasting (although she Is also considered somewhat eccentric) but a Scientist called Dame Atomika.

Here, I'll post it in its entirety because it's just hilarious, and keep in mind the 1st ed SoE trad book was written in 1993.

"Dear chauvinist pigs. (By Dame Atomika)

Yes, our tradition is as sexist as a hillbilly redneck on a saturday night. Don't try to deny it, you pompous windbags. You know who you are. Well, I'm damned tired of it! Three times I've been denied the proper recognition for my Hate Ray just because I'm a woman. No More. I'm fighting back! We will see who is the superior sex.

Oh, and don't bother call me a "son" of ether anymore. I'm a Electrodyne Diva now."

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 27, 2022, 02:03:08 PM"A boys club Stuck in the Victorian times who still mourns letting women vote" in the 1st ed Son of Ether tradition book.

Man, I never realized what I was missing out on by not being a Son Of Ether! They've got their shit together.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 27, 2022, 02:14:55 PM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 27, 2022, 02:03:08 PM"A boys club Stuck in the Victorian times who still mourns letting women vote" in the 1st ed Son of Ether tradition book.

Man, I never realized what I was missing out on by not being a Son Of Ether! They've got their shit together.

I still base characters in computer games like Cyberpunk 2077 and Fallout 4 on my Son of Ether I played in the 90s