Quote from: Trond on April 18, 2022, 12:03:20 AM
That's just the thing; The left used to pride itself on being "edgy" and "shocking" like this all the time. Now they are the holier than thou pearl clutching prudes, as pointed out by Johnny Rotten, Bill Maher and others. Even Obama seemed to notice it, no matter how guilty he might have been.  I think the period around 2010 was pivotal.

Also, they used to be anti-corporate, now they love Big Business. So if WW were Woke, Woke has changed a lot.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 17, 2022, 08:50:03 PM
As was said, I think they were trying to be more forward-thinking and expand the possibilities for RPGs and I think they succeeded in that.
They introduced diversity the way it should have been done.

They also brought way more gravitas to gaming which was clearly aimed at a more mature audience. So in my estimation, they were pretty cutting edge.

They were putting out content that had balls too, and we're not afraid to ruffle the feathers of all those prudish Christian Dudley do rights.

Shame they crawled up their own arse but they did leave us with some very impressive games.

1: White Wolf? Forward thinking? These two things do not go together. WW was allways trend followers. They looked at what was trendy and followed that. As for diversity. Thats a laugh riot. WW? Diversity? These two things do not go together either.

2: White Wolf? Gravitas? These two things do not go together.

3: This at least is spot on. But only for a time. Then they toned it down gradually. They pulled their won teeth.

4: They were allways up their own and just dug deeper. Occasionally bursting out the chest to go ooga-booda we is edgy! before retreating again. By 2nd ed they were already toning things down across the board.

Quote from: S'mon on April 18, 2022, 03:50:20 AM

Quote from: Trond on April 18, 2022, 12:03:20 AM
That's just the thing; The left used to pride itself on being "edgy" and "shocking" like this all the time. Now they are the holier than thou pearl clutching prudes, as pointed out by Johnny Rotten, Bill Maher and others. Even Obama seemed to notice it, no matter how guilty he might have been.  I think the period around 2010 was pivotal.

Also, they used to be anti-corporate, now they love Big Business. So if WW were Woke, Woke has changed a lot.

WW embraced the prior iteration of woke. Which was not as stringent and insane as this current wave. Pervasive and manipulative? Very. But compared to todays woke its pretty tame and of course they came under early fire for "misappropriation of minority cultures" because the next wave always turns on the prior.

Todays Coyote & Raven will be tomorrows Ravnos.

Quote from: arctic_fox on April 17, 2022, 08:37:33 AM
So, last week i was playing VTES with some friends and a debate started when one of them stated that for him, White Wolf's games (Vampire the Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse...) was always woke, or at least heavily leaning towards left wing ideology.

So what's your thoughts on the matter? Was he right or you disagree?

It did heavily lean towards leftist ideology, but it was more shock-jock pretentious than anything else. Especially the LARPers.

Yeah no, their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable. Most of their fanbase has always been insufferable. I started with mage the awakening and later mage the ascension as some of my first rpgs. Their old shit is edgy, new shit is cancer. I can thank mage 20th and phil brucato for almost single handedly killing my desire to ever play mage again.

Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable.

Yep... It's not the WW I knew.

All the innovation is gone and now it's just about pandering for cash, but what can you really expect from a big corp that licks the woke's arse for cash.

Quote from: Omega on April 18, 2022, 05:31:35 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 17, 2022, 08:50:03 PM
As was said, I think they were trying to be more forward-thinking and expand the possibilities for RPGs and I think they succeeded in that.
They introduced diversity the way it should have been done.

They also brought way more gravitas to gaming which was clearly aimed at a more mature audience. So in my estimation, they were pretty cutting edge.

They were putting out content that had balls too, and we're not afraid to ruffle the feathers of all those prudish Christian Dudley do rights.

Shame they crawled up their own arse but they did leave us with some very impressive games.

1: White Wolf? Forward thinking? These two things do not go together. WW was allways trend followers. They looked at what was trendy and followed that. As for diversity. Thats a laugh riot. WW? Diversity? These two things do not go together either.

2: White Wolf? Gravitas? These two things do not go together.

3: This at least is spot on. But only for a time. Then they toned it down gradually. They pulled their won teeth.

4: They were allways up their own and just dug deeper. Occasionally bursting out the chest to go ooga-booda we is edgy! before retreating again. By 2nd ed they were already toning things down across the board.

Well, they added a lot of gravitas to our games of course ymmv.

I agree... When they got big they castrated themselves to appease the gimps. As I said, the innovation was long gone at that stage. But they did leave us with some good stuff before they imploded.

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 18, 2022, 05:39:53 AM
Especially the LARPers.

I never LARPed thank god. The concept always felt a little bit too creepy for me.

But whatever floats your boat...

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 17, 2022, 08:50:03 PM
As was said, I think they were trying to be more forward-thinking and expand the possibilities for RPGs and I think they succeeded in that.
They introduced diversity the way it should have been done.

They also brought way more gravitas to gaming which was clearly aimed at a more mature audience. So in my estimation, they were pretty cutting edge.

They were putting out content that had balls too, and we're not afraid to ruffle the feathers of all those prudish Christian Dudley do rights.

Shame they crawled up their own arse but they did leave us with some very impressive games.

Greetings!

Right, right, my friend. I agree. I'm not even a real *fan* of White Wolf games, and even I can recognize that they as a company and publisher made some very real and significant contributions to the gaming hobby as a whole. Vampire, Werewolf, and so on, in particular. Many of their contributions, in writing, presentation, story, even mechanics, were brilliant. Of course, often served up with sides of stupid, pretentiousness, and depravity--but nonetheless brilliant, creative, and interesting.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 18, 2022, 09:38:21 AM
Right, right, my friend. I agree. I'm not even a real *fan* of White Wolf games, and even I can recognize that they as a company and publisher made some very real and significant contributions to the gaming hobby as a whole. Vampire, Werewolf, and so on, in particular. Many of their contributions, in writing, presentation, story, even mechanics, were brilliant. Of course, often served up with sides of stupid, pretentiousness, and depravity--but nonetheless brilliant, creative, and interesting.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Indeed, man... They didn't get it right all the time either, but they were on the cutting edge at one point. But I agree some of it was very pretentious at times. I had to read the books from behind the couch sometimes due to the cringe factor.

Quote from: Trond on April 18, 2022, 12:03:20 AM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on April 17, 2022, 06:27:15 PM

lolno, ww had a book that featured artwork of a woman chained to a urnial, raped to death with a strapon, and her attacker preparing to drink the blood pooling around her hips, out of a test-tube.

That's degeneracy, but it ain't woke.

That's just the thing; The left used to pride itself on being "edgy" and "shocking" like this all the time. Now they are the holier than thou pearl clutching prudes, as pointed out by Johnny Rotten, Bill Maher and others. Even Obama seemed to notice it, no matter how guilty he might have been.  I think the period around 2010 was pivotal.

Maybe the left used to be like that because back in the day it was the "church" and conservatives the ones who pushed for "decency" on games, books and so on... Episodes like the satanic panic must have reinforced such aspects (be edgy) on the content creators of the time, now ironically the table has turned.

Quote from: arctic_fox on April 18, 2022, 09:46:47 AM
now ironically the tables has turned.

That's very true.

But there is still a deeply conservative Christian ilk that festers in the within hobby who still cries foul because their imaginary book might not approve of something in an elf game.

Don't get me wrong I've actually nothing against religious people whatsoever even though I'm an atheist.

But fuck those morons who try to tell other people what to do or play. And I'd say the same to those woke bitches who try to control what others do.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 18, 2022, 09:52:58 AM

Quote from: arctic_fox on April 18, 2022, 09:46:47 AM
now ironically the tables has turned.

That's very true.

But there is still a deeply conservative Christian ilk that festers in the within hobby who still cries foul because their imaginary book might not approve of something in an elf game.

Don't get me wrong I've actually nothing against religious people whatsoever even though I'm an atheist.

But fuck those morons who try to tell other people what to do or play. And I'd say the same to those woke bitches who try to control what others do.

Yeah, conservatives like to think they're the new punk rock, but they're just one pendulum swing away from going back to pushing their values on everyone else, and the "left" is doing everything in their power to give them an excuse to do with the crap they've been pushing in schools. They just don't have the social capital anymore. Meanwhile the nu left is so far left they hate the working class, worship the corporations and demand all media, including games be sanitized in accordance with their new woke religion. It's like they went so far down the horseshoe they turned it into a circle.

The worse you could say about the old WW, though, is that they were pretentious AF and were very liberal with their research of the cultures presented in their games. But some of the stuff they included wouldn't fly in today's woke culture if published today.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 18, 2022, 10:11:34 AM
The worse you could say about the old WW, though, is that they were pretentious AF and were very liberal with their research of the cultures presented in their games. But some of the stuff they included wouldn't fly in today's woke culture if published today.

That's very true.

And Old WW makes the sjws cry so that's always a good thing.

What's really funny to do with old school WW is play it straight and watch the Lefties squirm.

They've gone so far around the bend they're supporting the things they established as the villains; ancient parasitic elites who manipulate humanity, soulless megacorps selling poisons to the population for profit, technocrats obsessed with transhumanism and forcibly reshaping humanity into cogs in their machine, authoritarian dictators seeking to crush your soul, the crushing of wonder with endless banal entertainment, nihilists angry at creation for having been born and desiring nothing more than to tear it all down.

And who are the protagonists played straight? The downtrodden, those wishing to live free from the dictates of the authoritarian villains and those who hold onto spiritual beliefs in the face of crushing opposition and are willing to fight for them (i.e. the so-called "bitter clingers").

It's like someone once said... a modern conservative is just a liberal from twenty years ago who didn't change their positions on things. Played straight, the old World of Darkness is pretty much exactly in that boat (and the V5 woke material comes off like that 40-year old going "hey all you hip young people" trying to repackage the material for definitions of woke that were already outdated before the first copy was off the press).