So, last week i was playing VTES with some friends and a debate started when one of them stated that for him, White Wolf's games (Vampire the Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse...) was always woke, or at least heavily leaning towards left wing ideology.
So what's your thoughts on the matter? Was he right or you disagree?
Well, they certainly were "progressive" at the time. But the thing about "progressive" is that it's all about moving the bar. So what was "woke" thirty years ago is now awkward and backwards and regrettable.
It's probably inaccurate to say "woke." They were rabidly counterculture for the time, which isn't the same thing.
You can see this in the deeper premises and mechanics of the "classic" games. Vampires have fixed "generations" that can only be improved by literally eating the richer older generation vampires. The werewolves are vicious ecoterrorists who worship Gaia and believe civilization is fundamentally evil and everything was better when humans lived in caves and werewolves culled the weak. The mages live in a universe where science is a lie and homeopathy works if you believe hard enough. The ghosts live in a ridiculously oppressive society where slavery never went out of style. The fairies are killed by concrete and think spreadsheets are the great satan.
There's also a ton of shitty research and cultural appropriation, of pretty much every culture. If you care at all about Slavic folklore, then books like Rage Across Russia will make you tear your hair out. If you're one of those worldbuilders who prides yourself on logical constructed languages and jargon in the vein of Tolkien and Rowling, then the WW jargon will make you want to tear your hair out (I speak from experience).
Fans are autists who will give you tons of shit if you point this out. That's one of the reasons I left the fandom over a decade ago.
They thought Publishing Beast the Primordial was okay.
This said, WW hasn't always been woke, they however have always be staunch Leftists with alot of those opinions. Thus when becoming Woke became a thing WW was more then happy to take those steps.
Let us not forget the timeless classic Pimp: The Backhanding.
Woke? No. Rotten? Yes. Theyve been pulling stunts since probably the get-go. I had more than one run in with them up to no good. And thats not even getting to the fiasco of their Gamma World product.
WW was always looking for new angles and the books are really pretty neutral or middle ground. They never that I saw ever pushed any agenda. Im certainly not seeing it in their final product Orpheus.
Werewolf: The Apocalypse was everything FATAL was accused of being. And yet White Wolf/Onyx Path are still selling it. They are a company with no shame. Willing to go to any depth in their products to be "edgy". Which is sickening and absolutely immature.
I stopped giving them money when I realized what they actually were. But they got way too much money out of me with little tangible return.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 17, 2022, 10:13:55 AM
It's probably inaccurate to say "woke." They were rabidly counterculture for the time, which isn't the same thing.
You can see this in the deeper premises and mechanics of the "classic" games. Vampires have fixed "generations" that can only be improved by literally eating the richer older generation vampires. The werewolves are vicious ecoterrorists who worship Gaia and believe civilization is fundamentally evil and everything was better when humans lived in caves and werewolves culled the weak. The mages live in a universe where science is a lie and homeopathy works if you believe hard enough. The ghosts live in a ridiculously oppressive society where slavery never went out of style. The fairies are killed by concrete and think spreadsheets are the great satan.
There's also a ton of shitty research and cultural appropriation, of pretty much every culture. If you care at all about Slavic folklore, then books like Rage Across Russia will make you tear your hair out. If you're one of those worldbuilders who prides yourself on logical constructed languages and jargon in the vein of Tolkien and Rowling, then the WW jargon will make you want to tear your hair out (I speak from experience).
Fans are autists who will give you tons of shit if you point this out. That's one of the reasons I left the fandom over a decade ago.
It sounds a lot like what 2000Ad was for comics on the 80's and 90's, not too obvious on politics as things is today but definitely into counterculture and left wing politics.
Quote from: arctic_fox on April 17, 2022, 08:37:33 AM
So, last week i was playing VTES with some friends and a debate started when one of them stated that for him, White Wolf's games (Vampire the Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse...) was always woke, or at least heavily leaning towards left wing ideology.
So what's your thoughts on the matter? Was he right or you disagree?
lolno, ww had a book that featured artwork of a woman chained to a urnial, raped to death with a strapon, and her attacker preparing to drink the blood pooling around her hips, out of a test-tube.
That's degeneracy, but it ain't woke.
Degeneracy and wokeness are the same thing, they just used the degeneracy to tear down other people's standards and then replaced them with their own (objectively worse) standards.
As was said, I think they were trying to be more forward-thinking and expand the possibilities for RPGs and I think they succeeded in that.
They introduced diversity the way it should have been done.
They also brought way more gravitas to gaming which was clearly aimed at a more mature audience. So in my estimation, they were pretty cutting edge.
They were putting out content that had balls too, and we're not afraid to ruffle the feathers of all those prudish Christian Dudley do rights.
Shame they crawled up their own arse but they did leave us with some very impressive games.
Quote from: thedungeondelver on April 17, 2022, 06:27:15 PM
artwork of a woman chained to a urnial, raped to death with a strapon, and her attacker preparing to drink the blood pooling around her hips, out of a test-tube.
That's degeneracy, but it ain't woke.
And what a thing of beauty it was... One of the biggest FUs to those repressed oxygen thieves who think RPGs are for mincing about baking cupcakes.
More games need to tell people to 'eat shit'. It's an art so you can't censor it.
Quote from: thedungeondelver on April 17, 2022, 06:27:15 PM
lolno, ww had a book that featured artwork of a woman chained to a urnial, raped to death with a strapon, and her attacker preparing to drink the blood pooling around her hips, out of a test-tube.
That's degeneracy, but it ain't woke.
That's just the thing; The left used to pride itself on being "edgy" and "shocking" like this all the time. Now they are the holier than thou pearl clutching prudes, as pointed out by Johnny Rotten, Bill Maher and others. Even Obama seemed to notice it, no matter how guilty he might have been. I think the period around 2010 was pivotal.
Quote from: Trond on April 18, 2022, 12:03:20 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on April 17, 2022, 06:27:15 PM
lolno, ww had a book that featured artwork of a woman chained to a urnial, raped to death with a strapon, and her attacker preparing to drink the blood pooling around her hips, out of a test-tube.
That's degeneracy, but it ain't woke.
That's just the thing; The left used to pride itself on being "edgy" and "shocking" like this all the time. Now they are the holier than thou pearl clutching prudes, as pointed out by Johnny Rotten, Bill Maher and others. Even Obama seemed to notice it, no matter how guilty he might have been. I think the period around 2010 was pivotal.
One of the many reasons I no longer consider myself leftist.
Woke wouldn't be the term to describe them back then, it really only applies to the left after the pivotal period mentioned above. But they were unabashedly liberal. Their publications were one of the first places I saw female pronouns used instead of male when referring to non-specific nouns. Despite the edgy artwork described above, their products brought a lot of women and queer people into gaming (there were homosexual characters in their work, mostly lesbians if I'm remembering correctly). There was a lot of politics in their work, all of it 90's leftist ideology.
They did bring more serious gaming with adult themes to the mainstream. They were also incredibly pretentious, had their heads up their asses, and as noted earlier, the quality of their research wouldn't even get a "C" in a high school essay. They would literally write into their products that real role-playing was narrative gaming (what they called storytelling) and it was the only way to correctly game.
Quote from: Trond on April 18, 2022, 12:03:20 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on April 17, 2022, 06:27:15 PM
lolno, ww had a book that featured artwork of a woman chained to a urnial, raped to death with a strapon, and her attacker preparing to drink the blood pooling around her hips, out of a test-tube.
That's degeneracy, but it ain't woke.
That's just the thing; The left used to pride itself on being "edgy" and "shocking" like this all the time. Now they are the holier than thou pearl clutching prudes, as pointed out by Johnny Rotten, Bill Maher and others. Even Obama seemed to notice it, no matter how guilty he might have been. I think the period around 2010 was pivotal.
If it wasn't the exact same people, it would be really hard to draw a connection between the beliefs of the left of the 90s and the beliefs of the left of today. There are a general areas that have remained central, like gay rights, but methods and expression have completely changed. And it's not just them aging, because this seems to be driven by the college culture of the younger generations, which was adopted like a memetic plague by the former vampiregothedgelords.
Quote from: Trond on April 18, 2022, 12:03:20 AM
That's just the thing; The left used to pride itself on being "edgy" and "shocking" like this all the time. Now they are the holier than thou pearl clutching prudes, as pointed out by Johnny Rotten, Bill Maher and others. Even Obama seemed to notice it, no matter how guilty he might have been. I think the period around 2010 was pivotal.
Also, they used to be anti-corporate, now they love Big Business. So if WW were Woke, Woke has changed a lot.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 17, 2022, 08:50:03 PM
As was said, I think they were trying to be more forward-thinking and expand the possibilities for RPGs and I think they succeeded in that.
They introduced diversity the way it should have been done.
They also brought way more gravitas to gaming which was clearly aimed at a more mature audience. So in my estimation, they were pretty cutting edge.
They were putting out content that had balls too, and we're not afraid to ruffle the feathers of all those prudish Christian Dudley do rights.
Shame they crawled up their own arse but they did leave us with some very impressive games.
1: White Wolf? Forward thinking? These two things do not go together. WW was allways trend followers. They looked at what was trendy and followed that. As for diversity. Thats a laugh riot. WW? Diversity? These two things do not go together either.
2: White Wolf? Gravitas? These two things do not go together.
3: This at least is spot on. But only for a time. Then they toned it down gradually. They pulled their won teeth.
4: They were allways up their own and just dug deeper. Occasionally bursting out the chest to go ooga-booda we is edgy! before retreating again. By 2nd ed they were already toning things down across the board.
Quote from: S'mon on April 18, 2022, 03:50:20 AM
Quote from: Trond on April 18, 2022, 12:03:20 AM
That's just the thing; The left used to pride itself on being "edgy" and "shocking" like this all the time. Now they are the holier than thou pearl clutching prudes, as pointed out by Johnny Rotten, Bill Maher and others. Even Obama seemed to notice it, no matter how guilty he might have been. I think the period around 2010 was pivotal.
Also, they used to be anti-corporate, now they love Big Business. So if WW were Woke, Woke has changed a lot.
WW embraced the prior iteration of woke. Which was not as stringent and insane as this current wave. Pervasive and manipulative? Very. But compared to todays woke its pretty tame and of course they came under early fire for "misappropriation of minority cultures" because the next wave always turns on the prior.
Todays Coyote & Raven will be tomorrows Ravnos.
Quote from: arctic_fox on April 17, 2022, 08:37:33 AM
So, last week i was playing VTES with some friends and a debate started when one of them stated that for him, White Wolf's games (Vampire the Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse...) was always woke, or at least heavily leaning towards left wing ideology.
So what's your thoughts on the matter? Was he right or you disagree?
It did heavily lean towards leftist ideology, but it was more shock-jock pretentious than anything else. Especially the LARPers.
Yeah no, their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable. Most of their fanbase has always been insufferable. I started with mage the awakening and later mage the ascension as some of my first rpgs. Their old shit is edgy, new shit is cancer. I can thank mage 20th and phil brucato for almost single handedly killing my desire to ever play mage again.
Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable.
Yep... It's not the WW I knew.
All the innovation is gone and now it's just about pandering for cash, but what can you really expect from a big corp that licks the woke's arse for cash.
Quote from: Omega on April 18, 2022, 05:31:35 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 17, 2022, 08:50:03 PM
As was said, I think they were trying to be more forward-thinking and expand the possibilities for RPGs and I think they succeeded in that.
They introduced diversity the way it should have been done.
They also brought way more gravitas to gaming which was clearly aimed at a more mature audience. So in my estimation, they were pretty cutting edge.
They were putting out content that had balls too, and we're not afraid to ruffle the feathers of all those prudish Christian Dudley do rights.
Shame they crawled up their own arse but they did leave us with some very impressive games.
1: White Wolf? Forward thinking? These two things do not go together. WW was allways trend followers. They looked at what was trendy and followed that. As for diversity. Thats a laugh riot. WW? Diversity? These two things do not go together either.
2: White Wolf? Gravitas? These two things do not go together.
3: This at least is spot on. But only for a time. Then they toned it down gradually. They pulled their won teeth.
4: They were allways up their own and just dug deeper. Occasionally bursting out the chest to go ooga-booda we is edgy! before retreating again. By 2nd ed they were already toning things down across the board.
Well, they added a lot of gravitas to our games of course ymmv.
I agree... When they got big they castrated themselves to appease the gimps. As I said, the innovation was long gone at that stage. But they did leave us with some good stuff before they imploded.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 18, 2022, 05:39:53 AM
Especially the LARPers.
I never LARPed thank god. The concept always felt a little bit too creepy for me.
But whatever floats your boat...
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 17, 2022, 08:50:03 PM
As was said, I think they were trying to be more forward-thinking and expand the possibilities for RPGs and I think they succeeded in that.
They introduced diversity the way it should have been done.
They also brought way more gravitas to gaming which was clearly aimed at a more mature audience. So in my estimation, they were pretty cutting edge.
They were putting out content that had balls too, and we're not afraid to ruffle the feathers of all those prudish Christian Dudley do rights.
Shame they crawled up their own arse but they did leave us with some very impressive games.
Greetings!
Right, right, my friend. I agree. I'm not even a real *fan* of White Wolf games, and even I can recognize that they as a company and publisher made some very real and significant contributions to the gaming hobby as a whole. Vampire, Werewolf, and so on, in particular. Many of their contributions, in writing, presentation, story, even mechanics, were brilliant. Of course, often served up with sides of stupid, pretentiousness, and depravity--but nonetheless brilliant, creative, and interesting.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 18, 2022, 09:38:21 AM
Right, right, my friend. I agree. I'm not even a real *fan* of White Wolf games, and even I can recognize that they as a company and publisher made some very real and significant contributions to the gaming hobby as a whole. Vampire, Werewolf, and so on, in particular. Many of their contributions, in writing, presentation, story, even mechanics, were brilliant. Of course, often served up with sides of stupid, pretentiousness, and depravity--but nonetheless brilliant, creative, and interesting.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Indeed, man... They didn't get it right all the time either, but they were on the cutting edge at one point. But I agree some of it was very pretentious at times. I had to read the books from behind the couch sometimes due to the cringe factor. :)
Quote from: Trond on April 18, 2022, 12:03:20 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on April 17, 2022, 06:27:15 PM
lolno, ww had a book that featured artwork of a woman chained to a urnial, raped to death with a strapon, and her attacker preparing to drink the blood pooling around her hips, out of a test-tube.
That's degeneracy, but it ain't woke.
That's just the thing; The left used to pride itself on being "edgy" and "shocking" like this all the time. Now they are the holier than thou pearl clutching prudes, as pointed out by Johnny Rotten, Bill Maher and others. Even Obama seemed to notice it, no matter how guilty he might have been. I think the period around 2010 was pivotal.
Maybe the left used to be like that because back in the day it was the "church" and conservatives the ones who pushed for "decency" on games, books and so on... Episodes like the satanic panic must have reinforced such aspects (be edgy) on the content creators of the time, now ironically the table has turned.
Quote from: arctic_fox on April 18, 2022, 09:46:47 AM
now ironically the tables has turned.
That's very true.
But there is still a deeply conservative Christian ilk that festers in the within hobby who still cries foul because their imaginary book might not approve of something in an elf game.
Don't get me wrong I've actually nothing against religious people whatsoever even though I'm an atheist.
But fuck those morons who try to tell other people what to do or play. And I'd say the same to those woke bitches who try to control what others do.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 18, 2022, 09:52:58 AM
Quote from: arctic_fox on April 18, 2022, 09:46:47 AM
now ironically the tables has turned.
That's very true.
But there is still a deeply conservative Christian ilk that festers in the within hobby who still cries foul because their imaginary book might not approve of something in an elf game.
Don't get me wrong I've actually nothing against religious people whatsoever even though I'm an atheist.
But fuck those morons who try to tell other people what to do or play. And I'd say the same to those woke bitches who try to control what others do.
Yeah, conservatives like to think they're the new punk rock, but they're just one pendulum swing away from going back to pushing their values on everyone else, and the "left" is doing everything in their power to give them an excuse to do with the crap they've been pushing in schools. They just don't have the social capital anymore. Meanwhile the nu left is so far left they hate the working class, worship the corporations and demand all media, including games be sanitized in accordance with their new woke religion. It's like they went so far down the horseshoe they turned it into a circle.
The worse you could say about the old WW, though, is that they were pretentious AF and were very liberal with their research of the cultures presented in their games. But some of the stuff they included wouldn't fly in today's woke culture if published today.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 18, 2022, 10:11:34 AM
The worse you could say about the old WW, though, is that they were pretentious AF and were very liberal with their research of the cultures presented in their games. But some of the stuff they included wouldn't fly in today's woke culture if published today.
That's very true.
And Old WW makes the sjws cry so that's always a good thing. :)
What's really funny to do with old school WW is play it straight and watch the Lefties squirm.
They've gone so far around the bend they're supporting the things they established as the villains; ancient parasitic elites who manipulate humanity, soulless megacorps selling poisons to the population for profit, technocrats obsessed with transhumanism and forcibly reshaping humanity into cogs in their machine, authoritarian dictators seeking to crush your soul, the crushing of wonder with endless banal entertainment, nihilists angry at creation for having been born and desiring nothing more than to tear it all down.
And who are the protagonists played straight? The downtrodden, those wishing to live free from the dictates of the authoritarian villains and those who hold onto spiritual beliefs in the face of crushing opposition and are willing to fight for them (i.e. the so-called "bitter clingers").
It's like someone once said... a modern conservative is just a liberal from twenty years ago who didn't change their positions on things. Played straight, the old World of Darkness is pretty much exactly in that boat (and the V5 woke material comes off like that 40-year old going "hey all you hip young people" trying to repackage the material for definitions of woke that were already outdated before the first copy was off the press).
I'm seeing some people here saying that older editions was better and I disagree with that. The prose and game design have always been mediocre.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2022, 01:52:56 PM
I'm seeing some people here saying that older editions was better and I disagree with that. The prose and game design have always been mediocre.
90% of TTRPG prose and mechanics are trash... mediocre is an A grade in this medium.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 18, 2022, 09:35:03 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 18, 2022, 05:39:53 AM
Especially the LARPers.
I never LARPed thank god. The concept always felt a little bit too creepy for me.
But whatever floats your boat...
I playtested the early version way back. Two of my local players used to host the local VtES LARP and it was pretty baseline really. Mostly interaction and intrigue focused far as I recall. Its the perfect LARP for a more casual play and doesnt usually need the props that other LARPs tend to need. Cthulhu Live was another that could pull this off. But the real fun was the ones with props and monsters.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 18, 2022, 02:22:55 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2022, 01:52:56 PM
I'm seeing some people here saying that older editions was better and I disagree with that. The prose and game design have always been mediocre.
90% of TTRPG prose and mechanics are trash... mediocre is an A grade in this medium.
It was the obnoxious short stories I always hated... I bought an RPG book not the musings of a frustrated writer wannabe.
Quote from: Omega on April 18, 2022, 02:24:51 PM
Cthulhu Live was another that could pull this off. But the real fun was the ones with props and monsters.
I'm not a very good actor and would lack the inhibition to act out in front of other people. I'm fine if there's a table in front of me though. It's my shield. ;)
Late to the discussion as always, as an adult looking back, my friends who are far more left leaning now as adults were interested in Vampire when we were younger, and my friends who weren't into Vampire aren't left leaning now. But this is a sample size of one group of people. I can say that white wolf never interested me.
The whole vampires as beautiful heroes has never appealed to me. I think of the Frog Brother's description of them in my head all the time, "Evil Shit sucking monsters", when books, games, or movies come out with that narrative. Maybe the idea of them being heroes was always more appealing to people who lean more left? I do not know, and I know I have no issue with the idea of a noble monster, it just always seemed like a vampire is just a parasite, and to survive must kill humans. It seems a noble vampire would suicide themselves, if they were noble in the sense I understand it.
I remember paging through books in the early 90's but the material did not interest me, as much because of the game system as the implied protagonists.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 03:02:53 PM
was always more appealing to people who lean more left?
Nah... We hated the idea of playing a nambi pampi Edwards. We always played Sabbat and loved kicking the shit out of the Camerilla.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 03:02:53 PM
The whole vampires as beautiful heroes has never appealed to me. I think of the Frog Brother's description of them in my head all the time, "Evil Shit sucking monsters", when books, games, or movies come out with that narrative. Maybe the idea of them being heroes was always more appealing to people who lean more left? I do not know, and I know I have no issue with the idea of a noble monster, it just always seemed like a vampire is just a parasite, and to survive must kill humans. It seems a noble vampire would suicide themselves, if they were noble in the sense I understand it.
I remember paging through books in the early 90's but the material did not interest me, as much because of the game system as the implied protagonists.
I only got interested in the Vampire end of the pool after Revised added Dhampirs to the mix; they don't need to consume blood and had ghoul-like access to disciplines. V20 also gave them the defining trait of being stupid resilient to aggravated damage that made them bar none my favorite character type for that section of the World of Darkness; particularly once you throw in a couple of anti-vampire merits that make them even more in line with the folklore of dhampirs as vampire hunters (i.e. base of stupid resilient + can sense vampires, see through their illusions, deal aggravated damage to supernaturals and their blood is toxic to vampires).
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 03:02:53 PM
The whole vampires as beautiful heroes has never appealed to me. I think of the Frog Brother's description of them in my head all the time, "Evil Shit sucking monsters", when books, games, or movies come out with that narrative. Maybe the idea of them being heroes was always more appealing to people who lean more left? I do not know, and I know I have no issue with the idea of a noble monster, it just always seemed like a vampire is just a parasite, and to survive must kill humans. It seems a noble vampire would suicide themselves, if they were noble in the sense I understand it.
I remember paging through books in the early 90's but the material did not interest me, as much because of the game system as the implied protagonists.
I think the vampire is interesting because it has versatility as a storytelling tool, but in general I agree that they're too often romanticized to the point of losing the monstrosity that defines them. Yeah, straight up superheroes isn't appropriate for vampires. But dark superheroes? Tortured antiheroes? That's the best they get IMO. One of the settings I'm working on is a dark superheroes setting where most of the monsters are evil, while a minority are broody antiheroic romance novel cover models that fight the bad guys.
Other times the games attract weirdos who get off on twisted power fantasies of murderous psychopaths. In D&D terms, these are players who go out of their way to murder innocent baby goblins and
revel in doing so.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 18, 2022, 02:32:24 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 18, 2022, 02:22:55 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2022, 01:52:56 PM
I'm seeing some people here saying that older editions was better and I disagree with that. The prose and game design have always been mediocre.
90% of TTRPG prose and mechanics are trash... mediocre is an A grade in this medium.
It was the obnoxious short stories I always hated... I bought an RPG book not the musings of a frustrated writer wannabe.
Yeah, I was never particularly interested in the short fiction. The
Chronicles books I recall were chock full of short fiction that didn't even relate to the rules contents of the book, like circuses of deformed demon clowns and babies born covered in tiny eggs that were never explained or referenced again.
But even as RPG books they're not very good.
Everlasting and
WitchCraft had better rules than even
Chronicles. Mostly because they used universal rules for magic and superpowers rather than the numerous redundant and power creeping subsystems used by WoD/CoD.
It took until Ken Hite writing V5 before vampires could have multiple powers per level in their arbitrary hierarchical superpower mechanic. Even VtR2 couldn't manage that much. Even then, the amalgam powers are often iffy: several are even more nonsensical in placement than the filler devotions in VtR1, ostensibly to restrict them to certain classes.
Everlasting's system for designing powers is superior (without going off on a tangent it's basically how gifts work in
Godbound but with granular experience costs).
My impression is that yes they were. Or at least proto-woke, meaning woke views but lacking the power to impose their views on others.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 18, 2022, 03:17:56 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 03:02:53 PM
was always more appealing to people who lean more left?
Nah... We hated the idea of playing a nambi pampi Edwards. We always played Sabbat and loved kicking the shit out of the Camerilla.
But...you said you are left leaning. I am not implying the weird Glow in the Sun vamps for teen girls when I spoke about vampires. I mean the death dealing monsters.
I also mean with appeal to left, in the sense that the OP was asking if it was always woke. I assumed Vampire had a following more or less built in thanks to Anne Rice (and her fiction never appealed to me at all) where vampires are presented in a more anti-hero/sympathetic light. I do remember most of the people who were more drawn to that sort of fiction were my more left leaning friends (though left back then is almost far right now), but I dunno. The Frog Brothers, Barlow, and Jerry Dandridge as movie characters had already ruined that perspective for me as a kid.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 04:04:31 PM
I also mean with appeal to left, in the sense that the OP was asking if it was always woke. I assumed Vampire had a following more or less built in thanks to Anne Rice (and her fiction never appealed to me at all) where vampires are presented in a more anti-hero/sympathetic light. I do remember most of the people who were more drawn to that sort of fiction were my more left leaning friends (though left back then is almost far right now), but I dunno. The Frog Brothers, Barlow, and Jerry Dandridge as movie characters had already ruined that perspective for me as a kid.
Mark Rein-Hagen made his game more or less as a pastiche of vampire fiction at the time. There's lots of influence from Anne Rice, but there's also influences from other works. Some of the character classes (they're basically character classes, even if its a skill-based system) are blatant copies of very specific works of vampire fiction, such as punk counterculture vampires from
The Lost Boys, body horror vampires from
Necroscope, vampires that look identical to Graf Orlock from
Nosferatu, sexy vampires with telepathy like Lestat from Anne Rice's books, snake-like vampires that worship a snake god like in the b-movie
The Lair of the White Worm, or even a non-vampire like the three-eyed protagonist from the anime
Sazan Eyes. Sometimes this goes beyond inspiration and straight into uninspired rip-off, and some of it is weird arbitrary stuff that you wouldn't ordinarily associated with vampires. Beyond that already listed we get stuff like Hollywood Satanists, Italian mafia incest aristocrat necromancer vampires, the historical assassins as vampires, some
Ars Magica characters as vampires, the rough likeness of Baron Samedi, sirens, fairies, time travelers...
Honestly, I think
Nightlife did this stuff better. Mark Rein-Hagen hamstrings his classes by forcing all vampires to follow rules like "allergic to sunlight, drinks bloods" whereas the kin in
Nightlife were free to vary in diets and weaknesses to a great extent. I don't remember if they had sirens, but they did have gorgons that fed by turning victims to stone and one class that blatantly copies the inuat monster from
Nomads.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2022, 04:30:00 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 04:04:31 PM
I also mean with appeal to left, in the sense that the OP was asking if it was always woke. I assumed Vampire had a following more or less built in thanks to Anne Rice (and her fiction never appealed to me at all) where vampires are presented in a more anti-hero/sympathetic light. I do remember most of the people who were more drawn to that sort of fiction were my more left leaning friends (though left back then is almost far right now), but I dunno. The Frog Brothers, Barlow, and Jerry Dandridge as movie characters had already ruined that perspective for me as a kid.
Mark Rein-Hagen made his game more or less as a pastiche of vampire fiction at the time. There's lots of influence from Anne Rice, but there's also influences from other works. Some of the character classes (they're basically character classes, even if its a skill-based system) are blatant copies of very specific works of vampire fiction, such as punk counterculture vampires from The Lost Boys, body horror vampires from Necroscope, vampires that look identical to Graf Orlock from Nosferatu, sexy vampires with telepathy like Lestat from Anne Rice's books, snake-like vampires that worship a snake god like in the b-movie The Lair of the White Worm, or even a non-vampire like the three-eyed protagonist from the anime Sazan Eyes. Sometimes this goes beyond inspiration and straight into uninspired rip-off, and some of it is weird arbitrary stuff that you wouldn't ordinarily associated with vampires. Beyond that already listed we get stuff like Hollywood Satanists, Italian mafia incest aristocrat necromancer vampires, the historical assassins as vampires, some Ars Magica characters as vampires, the rough likeness of Baron Samedi, sirens, fairies, time travelers...
Honestly, I think Nightlife did this stuff better. Mark Rein-Hagen hamstrings his classes by forcing all vampires to follow rules like "allergic to sunlight, drinks bloods" whereas the kin in Nightlife were free to vary in diets and weaknesses to a great extent. I don't remember if they had sirens, but they did have gorgons that fed by turning victims to stone and one class that blatantly copies the inuat monster from Nomads.
Interesting. I just remember that time period being a rise in popularity for Rice's books. It makes sense the authors would use every tool they could find for the vampires. I have no familiarity with white wolf past paging through a Vampire the Masquerade book in the early-mid 90's. How much of the movie Underworld is lifted from those games? I remember seeing that movie wondering if anyone is getting sued.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 04:48:49 PMHow much of the movie Underworld is lifted from those games? I remember seeing that movie wondering if anyone is getting sued.
There actually was a lawsuit at one point, I think; if I recall correctly, it was dismissed on the grounds that you can't copyright general ideas, tropes or stylistic resemblance.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 18, 2022, 05:27:34 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 04:48:49 PMHow much of the movie Underworld is lifted from those games? I remember seeing that movie wondering if anyone is getting sued.
There actually was a lawsuit at one point, I think; if I recall correctly, it was dismissed on the grounds that you can't copyright general ideas, tropes or stylistic resemblance.
I looked this up after typing about it, and it seems the studio settled very quickly (the suit was brought a few weeks before the movie debuted) to get the movie into theatres with no delay. So they got some money out of it, but I did not read about any dismissals (I suppose there could have been other suits).
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 03:58:36 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 18, 2022, 03:17:56 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 03:02:53 PM
was always more appealing to people who lean more left?
Nah... We hated the idea of playing a nambi pampi Edwards. We always played Sabbat and loved kicking the shit out of the Camerilla.
But...you said you are left leaning. I am not implying the weird Glow in the Sun vamps for teen girls when I spoke about vampires. I mean the death dealing monsters.
Death dealing monsters sounds good to me. AKA - The Sabbat.
I'm just making the point that the original lefties were about counterculture and any sensible lefties still are to this day, the left hasn't changed. The woke scolds are some weird American hybrid of fascists blended with Stalin. The real left doesn't consider them left at all or at best if they do they are considered extremist morons.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 18, 2022, 05:27:34 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 04:48:49 PMHow much of the movie Underworld is lifted from those games? I remember seeing that movie wondering if anyone is getting sued.
There actually was a lawsuit at one point, I think; if I recall correctly, it was dismissed on the grounds that you can't copyright general ideas, tropes or stylistic resemblance.
I think WW actually got a payout (if I remember correctly). Which was pretty ironic seeing that they were heavily influenced by Anne Rice (and a lot more). I reckon she would have gotten a big payout if she wanted it.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 04:48:49 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2022, 04:30:00 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 04:04:31 PM
I also mean with appeal to left, in the sense that the OP was asking if it was always woke. I assumed Vampire had a following more or less built in thanks to Anne Rice (and her fiction never appealed to me at all) where vampires are presented in a more anti-hero/sympathetic light. I do remember most of the people who were more drawn to that sort of fiction were my more left leaning friends (though left back then is almost far right now), but I dunno. The Frog Brothers, Barlow, and Jerry Dandridge as movie characters had already ruined that perspective for me as a kid.
Mark Rein-Hagen made his game more or less as a pastiche of vampire fiction at the time. There's lots of influence from Anne Rice, but there's also influences from other works. Some of the character classes (they're basically character classes, even if its a skill-based system) are blatant copies of very specific works of vampire fiction, such as punk counterculture vampires from The Lost Boys, body horror vampires from Necroscope, vampires that look identical to Graf Orlock from Nosferatu, sexy vampires with telepathy like Lestat from Anne Rice's books, snake-like vampires that worship a snake god like in the b-movie The Lair of the White Worm, or even a non-vampire like the three-eyed protagonist from the anime Sazan Eyes. Sometimes this goes beyond inspiration and straight into uninspired rip-off, and some of it is weird arbitrary stuff that you wouldn't ordinarily associated with vampires. Beyond that already listed we get stuff like Hollywood Satanists, Italian mafia incest aristocrat necromancer vampires, the historical assassins as vampires, some Ars Magica characters as vampires, the rough likeness of Baron Samedi, sirens, fairies, time travelers...
Honestly, I think Nightlife did this stuff better. Mark Rein-Hagen hamstrings his classes by forcing all vampires to follow rules like "allergic to sunlight, drinks bloods" whereas the kin in Nightlife were free to vary in diets and weaknesses to a great extent. I don't remember if they had sirens, but they did have gorgons that fed by turning victims to stone and one class that blatantly copies the inuat monster from Nomads.
Interesting. I just remember that time period being a rise in popularity for Rice's books. It makes sense the authors would use every tool they could find for the vampires. I have no familiarity with white wolf past paging through a Vampire the Masquerade book in the early-mid 90's. How much of the movie Underworld is lifted from those games? I remember seeing that movie wondering if anyone is getting sued.
I watched all the Underworld movies and there isn't anything to suggest the writers had ever read a WW book. The lawsuit was nitpicking in the extreme.
There's basically only two things that can be traced back to WW vampires: vampires permanently decreasing in power with every generation and needing to cannibalize prior generations to increase in power (which is a variation of Anne Rice's power increasing with age, except with an obnoxious counterculture message), and becoming a vampire's sycophantic thrall if you drink their blood on three separate occasions (which is a variation of the trope that vampires turn a victim by biting them on three occasions).
Everything else can be traced in some form to an earlier work. Vampire bloodlines with different traits actually date back to
Captain Kronos. Half-vampire servants goes all the way back to
Dracula (the transformation was depicted as occurring in stages). Etc.
White Wolf was always woke. I remember back in the day reading the Book of the Wyrm and the thing is full of these absurd Captain Planet style villains. It said that Pentex had a company whose job it was to make gay people feel guilty for being gay. Pentex fought to keep guns legal because the Wyrm wanted more gun crimes. The Abrahamic God was the Patriarch spirit whose purpose was to oppress women. There was loads of ridiculously obnoxious woke garbage in those early WW books.
Though, the woke left has gotten a lot worse since the 1990's. The woke leftists now are much more nasty, mean, intolerant, and openly supportive of oppression and intolerance. So they were woke back then, but they could still tell some good stories or create interesting material, they could even occasionally diverge from leftist narratives here or there. The woke of today can't tolerate anyone who isn't in total lockstep with them. You're either 100% woke or you're a Nazi and any terrible act is justified against Nazis.
So those interesting elements of the WoD could not be created by the woke developers of today, they are too dogmatic for that. They are going to have a rough time creating 5th Edition Mage, since the Technocracy is this monolithic oppressive combination of government and corporate power which controls the world - which is something that the woke of today 100% want and support. They are even having the Get of Fenris fall to the Wyrm in 5th edition W:tA, too right wing I guess.
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 18, 2022, 06:38:54 PM
The woke of today can't tolerate anyone who isn't in total lockstep with them. You're either 100% woke or you're a Nazi and any terrible act is justified against Nazis.
That's it right there...
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 18, 2022, 06:38:54 PM
So those interesting elements of the WoD could not be created by the woke developers of today, they are too dogmatic for that. They are going to have a rough time creating 5th Edition Mage, since the Technocracy is this monolithic oppressive combination of government and corporate power which controls the world - which is something that the woke of today 100% want and support. They are even having the Get of Fenris fall to the Wyrm in 5th edition W:tA, too right wing I guess.
Some of the 5e changes are good IMO. I still despise the IP and its toxic fandom, but I can recognize when the changes are good. Ditching the italian mafia incest aristocrats as the main purveyors of necromancy? Ditching the werewolf incest babies? Good, because they never should have been a thing in the first place. Using hunger instead of mana points? Definitely feels more evocative.
Other changes just have me scratching my head.
Hunter: The Reckoning 5e is using the same basic premise as
Hunter: The Vigil but with different world building, which makes the subtitle nonsensical because it refers to the metaplot event that dramatically altered the cosmology and created a bunch of new splats liked the imbued, the fallen, and the new mummies. Is that even still a thing in the 5th edition lore? Did I mention that I grew to
hate lore/metaplot after years of being a lore junkie because of shit like this?
Some changes, like the consolidation of the vampire powers, make me think "hey, maybe these rules should be rewritten from the ground up?" I've always thought that, actually, but V5 demonstrates it even better than VtR2.
Some changes are stupid and unnecessary or have an interesting concept but ridiculous execution. Take blood resonance. Hypothetically, it's evocative that vampires might feed on different flavors of blood to get different effects. BBC/Netflix
Dracula got mileage out of the idea that vampires feed on your soul/mind/memories. In practice, it means that characters will behave in bizarre, hilarious and generally illogical ways in order to get various benefits or learn new powers. For example, to learn necromancy/shadow magic (they're the same thing here, but also not because it's weird like that) you need to do stuff like feed on the blood of serial killers. As opposed to, I don't know, meditating in a cemetery?
Overall I find it much better for my mental health to just not care about this and make my own urban fantasy settings. I only wish WoD fans could do the same. Hopefully Paradox will finally kill the IP sooner rather than later.
Quote from: Omega on April 18, 2022, 02:24:51 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 18, 2022, 09:35:03 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 18, 2022, 05:39:53 AM
Especially the LARPers.
I never LARPed thank god. The concept always felt a little bit too creepy for me.
But whatever floats your boat...
I playtested the early version way back. Two of my local players used to host the local VtES LARP and it was pretty baseline really. Mostly interaction and intrigue focused far as I recall. Its the perfect LARP for a more casual play and doesnt usually need the props that other LARPs tend to need. Cthulhu Live was another that could pull this off. But the real fun was the ones with props and monsters.
I remember when VtM LARPers were all over Seattle around 1995 and they were nothing but fucking obnoxious asses at conventions. They had this unwritten rule that said they had to freak out the bystanders whenever possible. I guess it was a regional thing.
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 18, 2022, 06:38:54 PM
White Wolf was always woke. I remember back in the day reading the Book of the Wyrm and the thing is full of these absurd Captain Planet style villains. It said that Pentex had a company whose job it was to make gay people feel guilty for being gay. Pentex fought to keep guns legal because the Wyrm wanted more gun crimes. The Abrahamic God was the Patriarch spirit whose purpose was to oppress women.......
Thanks for pointing this out. Not sure why (and I know I shouldn't) but I found this hilarious. ;D
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2022, 08:17:59 PMSome of the 5e changes are good IMO. I still despise the IP and its toxic fandom, but I can recognize when the changes are good. Ditching the italian mafia incest aristocrats as the main purveyors of necromancy? Ditching the werewolf incest babies? Good, because they never should have been a thing in the first place. Using hunger instead of mana points? Definitely feels more evocative.
Other changes just have me scratching my head. Hunter: The Reckoning 5e is using the same basic premise as Hunter: The Vigil but with different world building, which makes the subtitle nonsensical because it refers to the metaplot event that dramatically altered the cosmology and created a bunch of new splats liked the imbued, the fallen, and the new mummies. Is that even still a thing in the 5th edition lore? Did I mention that I grew to hate lore/metaplot after years of being a lore junkie because of shit like this?
Some changes, like the consolidation of the vampire powers, make me think "hey, maybe these rules should be rewritten from the ground up?" I've always thought that, actually, but V5 demonstrates it even better than VtR2.
Some changes are stupid and unnecessary or have an interesting concept but ridiculous execution. Take blood resonance. Hypothetically, it's evocative that vampires might feed on different flavors of blood to get different effects. BBC/Netflix Dracula got mileage out of the idea that vampires feed on your soul/mind/memories. In practice, it means that characters will behave in bizarre, hilarious and generally illogical ways in order to get various benefits or learn new powers. For example, to learn necromancy/shadow magic (they're the same thing here, but also not because it's weird like that) you need to do stuff like feed on the blood of serial killers. As opposed to, I don't know, meditating in a cemetery?
Overall I find it much better for my mental health to just not care about this and make my own urban fantasy settings. I only wish WoD fans could do the same. Hopefully Paradox will finally kill the IP sooner rather than later.
Some of the changes in V5 are good, some are bad, but I don't think that it's particularly creative or compelling and the people making the books likely don't have the capacity for that. The original WoD had a lot of ridiculous crap in them, but they were fun in a way and had some cool ideas too. It's easy to look back at the silliest things and toss them out, it isn't that impressive.
Personally, I don't find the Metis to be objectionable and I actually like the Giovanni. The Giovanni didn't make sense as a full fledged Clan, they would have been a better bloodline - which is actually what they did with them in V5 but they did this ham fisted semi-retcon semi-metaplot hammered story arc. As far as the independent Clans went, the Giovanni were by far the most interesting. Both changes stink of cowardice to me, that they don't want to trigger their sensitive fan base, not creative additions to the setting.
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 18, 2022, 10:31:04 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 18, 2022, 08:17:59 PMSome of the 5e changes are good IMO. I still despise the IP and its toxic fandom, but I can recognize when the changes are good. Ditching the italian mafia incest aristocrats as the main purveyors of necromancy? Ditching the werewolf incest babies? Good, because they never should have been a thing in the first place. Using hunger instead of mana points? Definitely feels more evocative.
Other changes just have me scratching my head. Hunter: The Reckoning 5e is using the same basic premise as Hunter: The Vigil but with different world building, which makes the subtitle nonsensical because it refers to the metaplot event that dramatically altered the cosmology and created a bunch of new splats liked the imbued, the fallen, and the new mummies. Is that even still a thing in the 5th edition lore? Did I mention that I grew to hate lore/metaplot after years of being a lore junkie because of shit like this?
Some changes, like the consolidation of the vampire powers, make me think "hey, maybe these rules should be rewritten from the ground up?" I've always thought that, actually, but V5 demonstrates it even better than VtR2.
Some changes are stupid and unnecessary or have an interesting concept but ridiculous execution. Take blood resonance. Hypothetically, it's evocative that vampires might feed on different flavors of blood to get different effects. BBC/Netflix Dracula got mileage out of the idea that vampires feed on your soul/mind/memories. In practice, it means that characters will behave in bizarre, hilarious and generally illogical ways in order to get various benefits or learn new powers. For example, to learn necromancy/shadow magic (they're the same thing here, but also not because it's weird like that) you need to do stuff like feed on the blood of serial killers. As opposed to, I don't know, meditating in a cemetery?
Overall I find it much better for my mental health to just not care about this and make my own urban fantasy settings. I only wish WoD fans could do the same. Hopefully Paradox will finally kill the IP sooner rather than later.
Some of the changes in V5 are good, some are bad, but I don't think that it's particularly creative or compelling and the people making the books likely don't have the capacity for that. The original WoD had a lot of ridiculous crap in them, but they were fun in a way and had some cool ideas too. It's easy to look back at the silliest things and toss them out, it isn't that impressive.
Personally, I don't find the Metis to be objectionable and I actually like the Giovanni. The Giovanni didn't make sense as a full fledged Clan, they would have been a better bloodline - which is actually what they did with them in V5 but they did this ham fisted semi-retcon semi-metaplot hammered story arc. As far as the independent Clans went, the Giovanni were by far the most interesting. Both changes stink of cowardice to me, that they don't want to trigger their sensitive fan base, not creative additions to the setting.
After the first two or so editions WW basically stopped devising new ideas and just resorted to repackaging the same stuff over and over again.
I find those concepts more bizarre and idiosyncratic than anything else, but it's the names that seal the deal. Metis is the name of a first nations tribe. That's like naming your werewolf incest babies Americans, Germans, or Spaniards. Giovanni is the Italian given name equivalent to John. So your vampire conspiracy is named... the Johns? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. (For comparison, they also use Puttanesca as a surname. Yes, as in pasta sauce.) WW jargon is always like this and I find it obnoxious and culturally appropriative. If it was deliberately ridiculous that would be one thing, but this all reads like the result of really bad research and laziness. It makes Rowling's lazy "no-maj" look like Tolkien by comparison.
If I were writing a vampire setting, I'd give up and say there were hundreds of clans/bloodlines/whatever. Trying to limiting oneself to any particular number and forcing ideas to fill the quota hasn't produced great results so far.
The big thing VtM had that a lot of vampire games/settings lack is the way it ties into, frankly, epic threads of mythology (whereas vampires in general mostly tie into folklore).
The first vampire isn't some few centuries old nobleman turned witch (i.e. Dracula) or an undead countess (Carmilla)... or something weird like the ghost of alien/human hybrid (Rice's vampires).
Nope in VtM he's Cain, the first murderer, cursed directly by God and his angels, taught blood magic by the demon/witch Lilith, and whose further sins led to the Biblical Flood with a Titanomacy (the slaying of the second generation by the third who went on to create all the lines of vampires) and an eschatological prophecy akin to Armageddon layered on top complete with blood gods from before history and a Messianic "Last Daughter of Eve" (to contrast the First Son).
It's basically tailor made for tapping into the West's cultural foundations in a way that feels bigger than "learned black magic and became a vampire from it" and way more familiar than "has the essence of an half-alien ghost referred to as a 'Core' inside them."
That's why VtM casts a bit of a longer shadow than you'd expect.
My opinion is that the biggest mistake they made was in creating competing cosmologies for Werewolf, Mage, Wraith and Changeling (the latter four all being expressly against the Jewish/Christian origins for vampires. Either that or made it clearer that they existed in separate universes. The route they took of they're all sorta connected but don't actually fit just made everything muddy and led to ruining the themes of other game lines to try and make a unified metaplot work (hence Mage suddenly getting an eschatological event out of nowhere in Revised so all the splats could be racing towards the end of days).
Trying to shoot for a mythologically unified world was what they tried to do with NWoD, but all their best ideas were expended on the original so you ended up with second tier things like all Mages being Gnostics tied to Atlantis and Longinus possibly being the first vampire (despite him actually being venerated as a saint in the Roman and Orthodox Churches for his conversion to Christianity... so basically in v2.0 they villainized someone considered a saint whereas Cain had always been cast as a villainous type making his further demonization easy to accept).
That's probably why it was always doomed to play second fiddle to a no longer supported game line until the original recipes ultimately got brought back and it was the NWoD that had to rebrand itself 'Chronicles of Darkness' so as not to step on the toes of the more valuable property.
It just goes to prove that a good setting trumps bad mechanics.
Quote
It just goes to prove that a good setting trumps bad mechanics.
Shadowrun says "Hi!"
Quote from: Godsmonkey on April 19, 2022, 09:27:53 AM
Quote
It just goes to prove that a good setting trumps bad mechanics.
Shadowrun says "Hi!"
FASATrek says "Hi!"
Quote from: arctic_fox on April 17, 2022, 08:37:33 AM
So, last week i was playing VTES with some friends and a debate started when one of them stated that for him, White Wolf's games (Vampire the Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse...) was always woke, or at least heavily leaning towards left wing ideology.
So what's your thoughts on the matter? Was he right or you disagree?
woke != left
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 19, 2022, 08:17:04 AM
It just goes to prove that a good setting trumps bad mechanics.
To the degree that most fans don't actually play the game and just buy the books to read the metaplot and the video game adaptations have been embarrassing failures due to poor game design. On another note, you wouldn't believe the number of fans I talked to who hated Christianity and doublethought their way around the Christian underpinnings of the lore. I don't think good setting trumps bad mechanics: I don't think the setting is very good to begin with and I think WW got lucky by tapping into a trendy demographic in the 90s.
D&D is bigger now than it's ever been and has been a huge influence on the fantasy genre as a whole, especially in video games. There are numerous fantasy tabletop settings that piggyback on D&D's success through the open game license, and plenty that don't.
WW no longer exists as a company and the IP is being unsuccessfully whored out by Paradox to make video games. At their height WW sold 7 million books, but now they rely on kickstarter and nostalgia. The ideas in their games haven't made any impact on the urban fantasy genre as a whole, and certainly not in video games. There are virtually no other urban fantasy tabletop games besides maybe Shadowrun, which cheats by being cyberpunk too. Indeed, there are virtually no urban fantasy video games.
It was certainly successful in its time, but it's certainly nowhere near as successful now as it was then and if present trends are anything to go by then it's only going to decline further. It's continued future was contingent on
Bloodlines 2 being a huge success (Paradox even had television deals readied), and we all know by now how Paradox botched that.
Also, sheer density of lore doesn't equate to quality even if the lore junkies all say it is. There are so many franchises with many times more lore than LotR that I grew to despise because they're poorly written. I've become critical of the entire concept of lore. When it comes to passively consumed fiction, I care about the quality of the characters and the plot. When it comes to games, I care about the gameplay experience (and the quality of writing, if any). I don't care about irrelevant self-masturbatory lore.
Bloodlines didn't become a cult classic because of lore. It became a cult classic because of Troika's writing of the characters and plot. That's the only reason CCP and later Paradox even cared to buy the IP: because BL is a cult classic. (That's a stupid reason to buy an IP, but whatever.) They've consistently failed to understand the appeal of that game and that's why their attempts as video games have been failures. Most of the video game adaptations are text games made on the cheap where the writing wallows in all the pretentious emo goth nonsense that got the IP mocked in the 90s. It has none of the charm of Troika's writing.
I'm rambling now. Sorry.
EDIT: This isn't to say "the biblical Cain as first vampire" isn't an interesting idea. I just don't think the game got popular because of that. I think they got lucky. I think VtR "failed" only insofar as the tabletop market had dramatically shrunk since the 90s and the company decided to stop supporting it out of nostalgia rather than because it wasn't profitable on its own merits. (The VTR 1e rulebook supposedly sold 100,000 copies, which was pretty successful for the time.)
To a certain extent Il agree about lore being overrated. Lore is like the idea of an event so it can be cooler in your head even though as events it sucks. Its like the idea of a plot without requiring execution.
Once you really dig into the lore of 40K, Shadowrun, much of WOD, and many others you see generally how it makes it like a gaudy faberge egg. Interesting to look at but sucky for playing. Or just feels pointless.
Lore can be good for details or as an extra on top. But as a primary attraction it generally sucks.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 19, 2022, 10:20:16 AM
To a certain extent Il agree about lore being overrated. Lore is like the idea of an event so it can be cooler in your head even though as events it sucks. Its like the idea of a plot without requiring execution.
Once you really dig into the lore of 40K, Shadowrun, much of WOD, and many others you see generally how it makes it like a gaudy faberge egg. Interesting to look at but sucky for playing. Or just feels pointless.
Lore can be good for details or as an extra on top. But as a primary attraction it generally sucks.
Exactly. It's a poor substitute for writing an actual story. Lore can be useful for flavor and technical detail that would otherwise be unwieldy to show, but in these game settings it becomes an excuse for the writers to be lazy and self-masturbatory.
Here's what I consider a really good example: the backstory of the Death Leaper from 40k has it single-handedly bringing an entire planet to its knees through carefully orchestrated terrorism. The problem is that the codex doesn't show this to us, but rather provides us with a short synopsis of what happened. As a result, all of the tension of what could have been a decent horror story is robbed.
Another example from my personal experience: when I watch lore videos on youtube, I do this to get a summary of events that I otherwise don't understand or when I'm curious about a game that I have no intention of playing. Watching a lore video isn't a substitute for actually playing the game, any more than reading cliffnotes is a substitute for reading/watching anything else.
Or, to put it more bluntly, worldbuilding notes aren't a substitute for writing a fantasy novel. And they're not actually all that useful for running a tabletop game either.
I've seen no shortage of people say that VtM has better lore than VtR, but they can never actually explain how this leads to better gameplay. They just take it for granted that "more lore = automatically better," even though this is a nonsequitor and VtR has just as much raw word count in lore as VtM does if you don't count the editions constantly repackaging the same lore (in case anybody forgot, VtR 1e was consistently published for about as many years as VtM 1e-3e were). I honestly can't imagine how more lore, as opposed to actual adventures (which WoD doesn't actually do), would be useful except insofar as it gives ideas for plot hooks and CoD has no shortage of those anyway. IIRC CoD even published a book once whose sole purpose was to be a list of plot hooks (which really should have been published a decade earlier, but whatever).
In my experience, I've connected far more with
Nephilim than I ever did XoD because it actually lets you play as figures in its million year lore through its past life mechanic. Where WoD published adventures where the PCs stand and watch NPCs solve the metaplot, in
Nephilim you could play as historical figures involved in pivotal historical events and secret conspiracies that span millennia. (At least in theory. The rules didn't actually support this all too well. The original French version apparently did publish adventures where the PCs watched as NPCs solved the metaplot, which defeats the whole point IMO.)
Exactly. My personal axe grind for this is Shadowrun moreso then WoD.
Much more focus is placed on world altering events that in a adventure sense don't impact what you would do as a runner. But also don't expect you to influence events at all yourself.
Evil-Corp bought out Scum-inc. Provides more runner opportunities I guess? But so does literally everything else. There is no assumed shortage of business for runners. And neither Evil nor Scum is a good thing so you don't have a reason to care, even if you could somehow get involved.
Yeah. I have quite a few axes to grind against various game companies that got lost in lore bloat. White Wolf, Games Workshop, Blizzard Entertainment...
Like, I used to be big into 40k and the tyranids. After a while I lost interest because the tyranids don't actually have any characters or culture to use as a storytelling tool. The tyranid campaigns in the RTS and 4X games are extremely boring because they either consist of the tyranids saying "on nom nom" or some magos biologis recounting their actions from a distance. What really got me pumped for voracious space bugs was the starcraft 1 zerg campaign opening with "awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright." It's been two decades and I still haven't found anything that recaptures that magic for me. (btw starcraft's writing quickly went off the rails and right into crazy town shortly after that. it never recovered and I can't stand it now.)
After the newcron debacle that squandered the storytelling potential of the necrons by making them all into broody emo space egyptians angry they got immortal metal bodies, I really don't want to see GW try to give the tyranids deeper characterization.
Quote from: whatsleft on April 19, 2022, 09:32:58 AM
woke != left
I've fixed that for you.
Woke! = Dumb American/Canadian 'post' Left Extremists.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 19, 2022, 02:29:27 PM
Quote from: whatsleft on April 19, 2022, 09:32:58 AM
woke != left
I've fixed that for you.
Woke! = Dumb American/Canadian 'post' Left Extremists.
In case it needs clarification, '!=' is used in many coding languages for "is not equal."
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 19, 2022, 02:29:27 PM
Quote from: whatsleft on April 19, 2022, 09:32:58 AM
woke != left
I've fixed that for you.
Woke! = Dumb American/Canadian 'post' Left Extremists.
Well, when I hear England and Germany talk about being "nations of immigrants" I am not certain the disease is as contained as you would like for it to be. Given the state of some BBC programming choices, I think you are being extremely optimistic as to how localized the infection is.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 18, 2022, 05:27:34 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 04:48:49 PMHow much of the movie Underworld is lifted from those games? I remember seeing that movie wondering if anyone is getting sued.
There actually was a lawsuit at one point, I think; if I recall correctly, it was dismissed on the grounds that you can't copyright general ideas, tropes or stylistic resemblance.
Tell that to Harlan Ellison
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 18, 2022, 09:00:29 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 18, 2022, 02:24:51 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 18, 2022, 09:35:03 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 18, 2022, 05:39:53 AM
Especially the LARPers.
I never LARPed thank god. The concept always felt a little bit too creepy for me.
But whatever floats your boat...
I playtested the early version way back. Two of my local players used to host the local VtES LARP and it was pretty baseline really. Mostly interaction and intrigue focused far as I recall. Its the perfect LARP for a more casual play and doesnt usually need the props that other LARPs tend to need. Cthulhu Live was another that could pull this off. But the real fun was the ones with props and monsters.
I remember when VtM LARPers were all over Seattle around 1995 and they were nothing but fucking obnoxious asses at conventions. They had this unwritten rule that said they had to freak out the bystanders whenever possible. I guess it was a regional thing.
Yeah thats a complete violation of LARP rules to NOT freak out the bystanders. But then the Thoku movement and others preach everything for "muh immershun!"
Theres always going to be fuckwits in any venue who get off on this sort of stunt. Or take things too far. Especially the extreme end of "immershun" fanatics. Too many of whom are already practically one foot into coo-coo land as is.
But yeah we've heard of some of the Seattle LARPs going to hell. Not just the Vampire one. Same problems too of messing with the bystanders. And worse.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 02:27:46 PM
Like, I used to be big into 40k and the tyranids. After a while I lost interest because the tyranids don't actually have any characters or culture to use as a storytelling tool.
The truth and the real enlightenment element of 40K lore, is that everything is fluid and pointless as to make the most amount of money with no story integrity.
If GW would make more money that way, Super Mario would single-handedly defeat the chaos gods and tell all the space marines they suck.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 19, 2022, 03:39:32 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 02:27:46 PM
Like, I used to be big into 40k and the tyranids. After a while I lost interest because the tyranids don't actually have any characters or culture to use as a storytelling tool.
The truth and the real enlightenment element of 40K lore, is that everything is fluid and pointless as to make the most amount of money with no story integrity.
If GW would make more money that way, Super Mario would single-handedly defeat the chaos gods and tell all the space marines they suck.
I give them credit though, no one has made anywhere near the money they have off of Galactic Space Nazis. I also think they are in a painful spot...having to choose between getting bitten at every turn for their lore (though I understand changes are in the works) or pissing off the long timers and losing business. The danger of getting "too big" all the wrong people start to want to come to the party.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 19, 2022, 03:57:28 PM
I give them credit though...
I don't because their consumer base consists of 99.999999999999% Stockholm syndrome afflicted, hyper consumerist, sunk cost fallacy, elitist, uncritical morons.
Their fans lapped up Primaris marines. That makes GW able to get away with mistakes that would have ended every other franchise 20 times over.
40K is more a anomalous event then evidence of genius production.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 19, 2022, 04:14:42 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 19, 2022, 03:57:28 PM
I give them credit though...
I don't because their consumer base consists of 99.999999999999% Stockholm syndrome afflicted, hyper consumerist, sunk cost fallacy, elitist, uncritical morons.
Their fans lapped up Primaris marines. That makes GW able to get away with mistakes that would have ended every other franchise 20 times over.
40K is more a anomalous event then evidence of genius production.
They created those Fan(atics) though. I have to give them credit. I do not have to love them.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 19, 2022, 04:40:25 PMThey created those Fan(atics) though. I have to give them credit. I do not have to love them.
I don't believe morons of such calibur are created, its more like they where found. I guess GW must have been doing SOMETHING right to string along so many dupes.
But back to WW:
They where always on the left side for their time, and now that means being woke. Before they where more hippies, and now they are hipsters.
Yeah, the WW settings have always been obnoxiously counterculture. What's more, many fans didn't and still don't realize this even though the books make it painfully obvious.
In VtM, the vampire hierarchy was stagnant. Older generation elders at the top, newer generation noobs at the bottom. This wouldn't change ever. The noobs could only ever advance their position by overthrowing and literally cannibalizing their superiors. This was even a major event in the backstory. It's pretty obviously a fantastical parallel for the communist revolutions.
In VtR, generational limits are removed and this is replaced by Underworld-style leapfrogging through time (only clumsier, because this is still WW). This is the exact opposite of counterculture, as it rewards maintaining a more or less static hierarchy for centuries. I'd even call it conservative, as it stresses accumulating your own power through hard work (as represented by xp) and then assuming your earned position when the current holder inevitably abdicates.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 07:51:08 AM
I find those concepts more bizarre and idiosyncratic than anything else, but it's the names that seal the deal. Metis is the name of a first nations tribe.
I always assumed Metis was a reference to the Greek Titan Metis. Actually it turns out the more relevant etymology here is metis as a French word (Latin origin, of course) meaning mixed person. Interestingly, looks like the American indian tribe you're referring to uses the French word as their name for themselves (sus).
Quote from: Omega on April 19, 2022, 03:21:28 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 18, 2022, 05:27:34 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 04:48:49 PMHow much of the movie Underworld is lifted from those games? I remember seeing that movie wondering if anyone is getting sued.
There actually was a lawsuit at one point, I think; if I recall correctly, it was dismissed on the grounds that you can't copyright general ideas, tropes or stylistic resemblance.
Tell that to Harlan Ellison
The Terminator/Demon With A Glass Hand lawsuit?
Quote from: Omega on April 19, 2022, 03:34:50 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 18, 2022, 09:00:29 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 18, 2022, 02:24:51 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 18, 2022, 09:35:03 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 18, 2022, 05:39:53 AM
Especially the LARPers.
I never LARPed thank god. The concept always felt a little bit too creepy for me.
But whatever floats your boat...
I playtested the early version way back. Two of my local players used to host the local VtES LARP and it was pretty baseline really. Mostly interaction and intrigue focused far as I recall. Its the perfect LARP for a more casual play and doesnt usually need the props that other LARPs tend to need. Cthulhu Live was another that could pull this off. But the real fun was the ones with props and monsters.
I remember when VtM LARPers were all over Seattle around 1995 and they were nothing but fucking obnoxious asses at conventions. They had this unwritten rule that said they had to freak out the bystanders whenever possible. I guess it was a regional thing.
Yeah thats a complete violation of LARP rules to NOT freak out the bystanders. But then the Thoku movement and others preach everything for "muh immershun!"
Theres always going to be fuckwits in any venue who get off on this sort of stunt. Or take things too far. Especially the extreme end of "immershun" fanatics. Too many of whom are already practically one foot into coo-coo land as is.
But yeah we've heard of some of the Seattle LARPs going to hell. Not just the Vampire one. Same problems too of messing with the bystanders. And worse.
What is the Thoku movement?
Quote from: oggsmash on April 19, 2022, 02:55:51 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 19, 2022, 02:29:27 PM
Quote from: whatsleft on April 19, 2022, 09:32:58 AM
woke != left
I've fixed that for you.
Woke! = Dumb American/Canadian 'post' Left Extremists.
Well, when I hear England and Germany talk about being "nations of immigrants" I am not certain the disease is as contained as you would like for it to be. Given the state of some BBC programming choices, I think you are being extremely optimistic as to how localized the infection is.
Granted... The BBC are run by complete cretins (Britsh TV has gone down the toilet). The immigration issue is a complex one. But I don't know how popular that move by Germany actually was with the populous. Again in Britain, the vast majority of people don't want any more immigrants.
I'm really talking about RPGs here though. The wokness spread from those weird American Left extremists.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 19, 2022, 06:10:43 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 19, 2022, 02:55:51 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 19, 2022, 02:29:27 PM
Quote from: whatsleft on April 19, 2022, 09:32:58 AM
woke != left
I've fixed that for you.
Woke! = Dumb American/Canadian 'post' Left Extremists.
Well, when I hear England and Germany talk about being "nations of immigrants" I am not certain the disease is as contained as you would like for it to be. Given the state of some BBC programming choices, I think you are being extremely optimistic as to how localized the infection is.
Granted... The BBC are run by complete cretins (Britsh TV has gone down the toilet). The immigration issue is a complex one. But I don't know how popular that move by Germany actually was with the populous. Again in Britain, the vast majority of people don't want any more immigrants.
I'm really talking about RPGs here though. The wokness spread from those weird American Left extremists.
Well, I think the wokeness is an extremely small population in every country. I think we hear all the echoes of their cries in the USA because all the social media platforms are based here and give these people quite the bullhorn (and several of the internet "news" seems more than happy to have a pretty extreme view of things as well). Regarding Rpgs, I guess it makes sense it comes from Americans, since the biggest most influential RPGs come from the USA. I think popularity of movement or message almost does not matter, I think the position it comes from matters more.
In any event, back to WW, I always got the idea vampires appealed to a different crowd than I would have played with. Of course WW had its heyday during a time when I did not play any RPGs for around 6 or so years, so I might have been pulled into a game or two back then (even then I bought RPG materials though, and it seems RIFTS and KS was getting my money around that time, and it is as goofy as anything WW ever put out. Heck, he even was pushing the idea of vampires as PCs as well-- though rare).
Quote from: Zelen on April 19, 2022, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 07:51:08 AM
I find those concepts more bizarre and idiosyncratic than anything else, but it's the names that seal the deal. Metis is the name of a first nations tribe.
I always assumed Metis was a reference to the Greek Titan Metis. Actually it turns out the more relevant etymology here is metis as a French word (Latin origin, of course) meaning mixed person. Interestingly, looks like the American indian tribe you're referring to uses the French word as their name for themselves (sus).
Even if a Greek etymology were the case here, it still makes no sense. What does the titaness of wisdom have to do with a deformed werewolf incest baby? Altho that is par the course for WW jargon. Their heads are so far up their asses that they need capitalized misappropriated words for everything.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 02:27:46 PM
Like, I used to be big into 40k and the tyranids. After a while I lost interest because the tyranids don't actually have any characters or culture to use as a storytelling tool.
You can always just give them more personality.
But in all honesty they really do not need it and make a good counterpoint to all the other factions that are effervescing with personality, usually one-trick pony personality...
Early in though it looked like GW was hinting that there was more to these space dinosaurs, which is what they originally were, than just a mindless hoard. But in true GW fashion they realized that there was more money in aping the Aliens franchise than being, you know, original.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 02:27:46 PM
Yeah. I have quite a few axes to grind against various game companies that got lost in lore bloat. White Wolf, Games Workshop, Blizzard Entertainment...
Like, I used to be big into 40k and the tyranids. After a while I lost interest because the tyranids don't actually have any characters or culture to use as a storytelling tool. The tyranid campaigns in the RTS and 4X games are extremely boring because they either consist of the tyranids saying "on nom nom" or some magos biologis recounting their actions from a distance. What really got me pumped for voracious space bugs was the starcraft 1 zerg campaign opening with "awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright." It's been two decades and I still haven't found anything that recaptures that magic for me. (btw starcraft's writing quickly went off the rails and right into crazy town shortly after that. it never recovered and I can't stand it now.)
After the newcron debacle that squandered the storytelling potential of the necrons by making them all into broody emo space egyptians angry they got immortal metal bodies, I really don't want to see GW try to give the tyranids deeper characterization.
If you like to read sci-fi, check out Peter F Hamilton's "Commonwealth" series, especially the first book "Pandora's Star". There is an alien species that is very bug-like. Some of the backstory of them is described where they started off as a species of various different hive-minds that competed on the same home planet, and one hive mind eventually took over the planet and controls all the drones/bodies, then it colonizes space and is hostile to all other life, the evolutionary psychology of cooperation never happened for this species so it sees all other life as a threat to its own existence that must be consumed or killed. There was some characterization of this "prime" alien mind. It certainly could lead to a more interesting take on the tyranids for home brewed lore and backstory, but yeah, tyranids are typically more about how they're a threat to everyone else than anything specific about their own development.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 07:47:57 PM
Quote from: Zelen on April 19, 2022, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 07:51:08 AM
I find those concepts more bizarre and idiosyncratic than anything else, but it's the names that seal the deal. Metis is the name of a first nations tribe.
I always assumed Metis was a reference to the Greek Titan Metis. Actually it turns out the more relevant etymology here is metis as a French word (Latin origin, of course) meaning mixed person. Interestingly, looks like the American indian tribe you're referring to uses the French word as their name for themselves (sus).
Even if a Greek etymology were the case here, it still makes no sense. What does the titaness of wisdom have to do with a deformed werewolf incest baby? Altho that is par the course for WW jargon. Their heads are so far up their asses that they need capitalized misappropriated words for everything.
Weird man. I literally explained how my assumption was wrong in the very next sentence, and why this terminology is fairly logical once you understand the real root/reference of the term in the game.
I mean, I think WW are wankers but you just seem to be looking for a reason to be upset here.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 05:30:37 PM
Yeah, the WW settings have always been obnoxiously counterculture. What's more, many fans didn't and still don't realize this even though the books make it painfully obvious.
In VtM, the vampire hierarchy was stagnant. Older generation elders at the top, newer generation noobs at the bottom. This wouldn't change ever. The noobs could only ever advance their position by overthrowing and literally cannibalizing their superiors. This was even a major event in the backstory. It's pretty obviously a fantastical parallel for the communist revolutions.
In VtR, generational limits are removed and this is replaced by Underworld-style leapfrogging through time (only clumsier, because this is still WW). This is the exact opposite of counterculture, as it rewards maintaining a more or less static hierarchy for centuries. I'd even call it conservative, as it stresses accumulating your own power through hard work (as represented by xp) and then assuming your earned position when the current holder inevitably abdicates.
Leftism hasn't been about overthrowing oppressive aristocrats in a century. In the 1990's leftists could still get away with pretending to fight the power, though with the woke of today, they don't even pretend. Now some of the most important issues to the woke left are protecting the ability of the government or mega-corporations to censor and terrorize dissenters.
By the 1990's, fighting against oppressors was an entirely bipartisan idea, and now in the 2020's it's an exclusively right wing trope which is why the wokism of V5 fails for so - pretending like their corporate leftism is fighting the power is more LARPing than wearing fake teeth and playing rock-paper-scissors.
Quote from: Zelen on April 20, 2022, 02:54:59 PM
this terminology is fairly logical once you understand the real root/reference of the term in the game.
Really? We're actually having this conversation? How is a tribe of mixed-race indigenous people relevant to
deformed werewolf incest babies? On one hand, that's horrifically offensive cultural appropriation (imagine if the deformed werewolf incest babies were called teutons, slavs, jews, yankees, romani, or any other name for a real ethnic group). On the other, it's not logical or clever because outbreeding and inbreeding are opposites. It would be much more logical to call the deformed werewolf incest babies "sawney beans."
Quote from: Zelen on April 20, 2022, 02:54:59 PM
I mean, I think WW are wankers but you just seem to be looking for a reason to be upset here.
Maybe so, but it's not like that's hard to find. This is low-hanging fruit and ShieldWife already mentioned the big apples earlier.
Honestly, I'm not even really upset about that. Horrified? Disgusted? Certainly. Like, one of the books includes a magic ritual where the participants must have furry sex. There is just so much disgusting stuff in those books.
Some of it is intended to be profound but comes off as lulzy. One of the books recounts the feminist fairytale that men formed patriarchy after learning where babies come from as historical fact and goes on to complain about how all human cultural heroes are actually evil patriarchs who murdered all the good matriarchs and demonized them as literal monsters in myths (e.g. the gorgons are claimed as actually being werewolf heroines murdered by patriarchy). That's the absolute laziest and poorly educated feminist reimagining of myth and history that I've ever come across.
And, again, they did try to invent a cool made-up name for
deformed werewolf incest babies. How does somebody get to that point? That's bad enough by itself, but the fans are actually complaining that W5 is removing them from continuity. Again: these fans are upset that deformed werewolf incest babies named after a real ethnic group are being taken out of continuity. If I'm looking for reasons to be upset, then so are they and they're even worse at it than I am.
It's more exhausting to me than anything else. The books are full of so much deranged shit that trying to dredge it up makes me sad and depressed.
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 21, 2022, 12:30:34 PM
Leftism hasn't been about overthrowing oppressive aristocrats in a century.
Maybe so, but I can't think of many other reasons that "eat the rich" would be enshrined in the rules and setting. That wasn't a thing in Anne Rice, or indeed any other vampire fiction. Vampires in Anne Rice used very vaguely defined power levels where vampires grew more powerful with age but could transfuse/sacrifice their power to increase the power of weaker vampires and to create new vampires, and the power of new vampires was a fraction of their maker's so more powerful makers produced more powerful new vampires. This was a plot point in
The Vampire Lestat where the Children of Satan had rules about it and despised Lestat because he was
a gary stu too powerful for his young age.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2022, 02:42:26 PM
Quote from: Zelen on April 20, 2022, 02:54:59 PM
this terminology is fairly logical once you understand the real root/reference of the term in the game.
Really? We're actually having this conversation? How is a tribe of mixed-race indigenous people relevant to deformed werewolf incest babies?
Um... Unless WW changed something. Metis werewolves are not born of incest. They are just mixed breed and for whatever reason this seems to consistently create mutants.
As for "appropriation"... of what? Offensive to who? The words already "appropriated" from some other culture by the NA tribe you are white knighting for.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2022, 02:42:26 PMIf I'm looking for reasons to be upset, then so are they and they're even worse at it than I am.
Its more of a 'Your backing off in fear from a decison' type deal. I have played many WW games (with friends primarily) and stupid or not, many players have had fun with its bad ideas. This is removing something for no reason to stop offending people whos opinions they actually count higher for weak reasons.
WoD was built on edge, and has consistently sanitized itself in the modern age to appease the unapeasable.
I think something like...Goblin Slayer sucks eggs. But I would be against sanitizing it to appease perpetual whiners.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2022, 02:42:26 PM
Quote from: Zelen on April 20, 2022, 02:54:59 PM
this terminology is fairly logical once you understand the real root/reference of the term in the game.
Really? We're actually having this conversation? How is a tribe of mixed-race indigenous people relevant to deformed werewolf incest babies? On one hand, that's horrifically offensive cultural appropriation (imagine if the deformed werewolf incest babies were called teutons, slavs, jews, yankees, romani, or any other name for a real ethnic group). On the other, it's not logical or clever because outbreeding and inbreeding are opposites. It would be much more logical to call the deformed werewolf incest babies "sawney beans."
Quote from: Zelen on April 20, 2022, 02:54:59 PM
I mean, I think WW are wankers but you just seem to be looking for a reason to be upset here.
Maybe so, but it's not like that's hard to find. This is low-hanging fruit and ShieldWife already mentioned the big apples earlier.
Honestly, I'm not even really upset about that. Horrified? Disgusted? Certainly. Like, one of the books includes a magic ritual where the participants must have furry sex. There is just so much disgusting stuff in those books.
Some of it is intended to be profound but comes off as lulzy. One of the books recounts the feminist fairytale that men formed patriarchy after learning where babies come from as historical fact and goes on to complain about how all human cultural heroes are actually evil patriarchs who murdered all the good matriarchs and demonized them as literal monsters in myths (e.g. the gorgons are claimed as actually being werewolf heroines murdered by patriarchy). That's the absolute laziest and poorly educated feminist reimagining of myth and history that I've ever come across.
And, again, they did try to invent a cool made-up name for deformed werewolf incest babies. How does somebody get to that point? That's bad enough by itself, but the fans are actually complaining that W5 is removing them from continuity. Again: these fans are upset that deformed werewolf incest babies named after a real ethnic group are being taken out of continuity. If I'm looking for reasons to be upset, then so are they and they're even worse at it than I am.
It's more exhausting to me than anything else. The books are full of so much deranged shit that trying to dredge it up makes me sad and depressed.
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 21, 2022, 12:30:34 PM
Leftism hasn't been about overthrowing oppressive aristocrats in a century.
Maybe so, but I can't think of many other reasons that "eat the rich" would be enshrined in the rules and setting. That wasn't a thing in Anne Rice, or indeed any other vampire fiction. Vampires in Anne Rice used very vaguely defined power levels where vampires grew more powerful with age but could transfuse/sacrifice their power to increase the power of weaker vampires and to create new vampires, and the power of new vampires was a fraction of their maker's so more powerful makers produced more powerful new vampires. This was a plot point in The Vampire Lestat where the Children of Satan had rules about it and despised Lestat because he was a gary stu too powerful for his young age.
If you reread what Zelen said in the post that kicked off this side combo you'll notice that the actual origin for the name "Metis" is a French word with Latin roots. And it's been awhile since I read Werewolf, but IIRC Metis were not 100% the product of incest per se (though, they were culturally considered as such within werewolf society), but of werewolves breeding with other werewolves, rather than with either wolves or humans.
Which... honestly, I don't care. I'm not gonna get offended that they decided to include some quasi-incestuous breed of werewolves as part of their lore, that aren't even 100% the product of incest, but rather some weird, setting specific Werewolf rule.
And how can you possibly be "not even really upset about that" yet simultaneously be "Horrified? Disgusted? Certainly."? How can you even be horrified and disgusted by something, but not upset by it? How does that even work?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2022, 02:42:26 PM
Honestly, I'm not even really upset about that. Horrified? Disgusted? Certainly. Like, one of the books includes a magic ritual where the participants must have furry sex.
LOL won't, someone, think of the children!?
Luckily nobody gives a shit what you like or don't otherwise we'd all be playing patty-cake with multi-colored eunuch-corns.
You big girl's blouse.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 21, 2022, 07:25:35 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2022, 02:42:26 PM
Honestly, I'm not even really upset about that. Horrified? Disgusted? Certainly. Like, one of the books includes a magic ritual where the participants must have furry sex.
LOL won't, someone, think of the children!?
Luckily nobody gives a shit what you like or don't otherwise we'd all be playing patty-cake with multi-colored eunuch-corns.
You big girl's blouse.
Oddly enough people can dislike something, find it morally reprehensible or otherwise repugnant. You should find weird furry shit gross. But you don't. Which says more about you than anything else. That shit should be done in the privacy of one's own home and not enacted in a public group. I'm not even all that conservative but I'm fed up with people just nodding their head to degeneracy. We live in clown world because god forbid we judge a sick fuck as a sick fuck.
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 08:12:17 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 21, 2022, 07:25:35 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2022, 02:42:26 PM
Honestly, I'm not even really upset about that. Horrified? Disgusted? Certainly. Like, one of the books includes a magic ritual where the participants must have furry sex.
LOL won't, someone, think of the children!?
Luckily nobody gives a shit what you like or don't otherwise we'd all be playing patty-cake with multi-colored eunuch-corns.
You big girl's blouse.
Oddly enough people can dislike something, find it morally reprehensible or otherwise repugnant. You should find weird furry shit gross. But you don't. Which says more about you than anything else. That shit should be done in the privacy of one's own home and not enacted in a public group. I'm not even all that conservative but I'm fed up with people just nodding their head to degeneracy. We live in clown world because god forbid we judge a sick fuck as a sick fuck.
Please do infer that I looooove furries. LOL You thick fuck.
Furries are morons but why do you even give a toss if they bang each other? Are they destroying the world? Don't like it don't read it.
Far more dangerous are far-right conservative Christians that want to try to ban and control everything others do. I piss on your bible. Truth be told you are just another homophobe who is terrified that the US and A will be 'infected'.
Of course, I'm not having a go at the more sensible and moderate Christians out there, just the bedwetters like yourself and that other twonk.
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 08:12:17 AM
I'm not even all that conservative but I'm fed up with people just nodding their head to degeneracy. We live in clown world because god forbid we judge a sick fuck as a sick fuck.
And this right here is why all the woke nonsense in rpgs (and everywhere in the broader culture) is going to lead to the mother of all pendulum backswings and the most woke (like WotC and Paradox) will be the hardest hit.
My money is on the upcoming D&D 6e (even though they'll try to claim its still 5e) as the point where the backswing begins in earnest... 5e's core books are mostly woke-free and so many customers just aren't exposed to all the crazy in the supplements or that the creators spew online. Once the woke garbage is front and center in the core books though is when the customer base walks away en mass (instead of the current trickle).
The other thing I'm going to predict is thd backswing won't translate to people who aren't already roleplayers picking up alternative systems; it's just going to collapse the whole market as those people take their entertainment dollars elsewhere.
I've always found Werewolf: the Apocalypse to be the most objectionable of the WW game lines. I'm actually a supporter of environmentalism, but getting beaten over the head with over the top Captain Planet propaganda was just obnoxious. Plus with the Wyrm basically representing the right wing (as I referred to in the Book of the Wyrm) and the various leftist politics of the Tribes. The furry bestiality fetish stuff was also a little unsettling.
Years ago, I was involved in an online play by post game run by my husband in his own custom made setting which was similar in many ways to the World of Darkness, with some of the same creature types and some new ones, including werewolves. The werewolves weren't W:tA Garou though and had no Lupus Garou and no wolf sex, which caused one of the players to complain.
I don't want to attack anybody's fetishes, but has always been unsettling to me that werewolves, who have human intelligence, are supposed to have sex with and reproduce with wolves. It's way stranger than the incest analogue with the Metis, which isn't actually incest at all.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 08:24:02 AM
Far more dangerous are far-right conservative Christians that want to try to ban and control everything others do. I piss on your bible. Truth be told you are just another homophobe who is terrified that the US and A will be 'infected'.
What far right is this you're talking about? It's been decades since the right (with minor exceptions) wanted to censor anything and it's likewise been decades that the default leftist position has been to censor things which go against their ideology. In fact, usually if "conservatives" want to censor something these days, it's because they have been influenced by the left and are censoring something that they perceive as being too far right.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 08:24:02 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 08:12:17 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 21, 2022, 07:25:35 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2022, 02:42:26 PM
Honestly, I'm not even really upset about that. Horrified? Disgusted? Certainly. Like, one of the books includes a magic ritual where the participants must have furry sex.
LOL won't, someone, think of the children!?
Luckily nobody gives a shit what you like or don't otherwise we'd all be playing patty-cake with multi-colored eunuch-corns.
You big girl's blouse.
Oddly enough people can dislike something, find it morally reprehensible or otherwise repugnant. You should find weird furry shit gross. But you don't. Which says more about you than anything else. That shit should be done in the privacy of one's own home and not enacted in a public group. I'm not even all that conservative but I'm fed up with people just nodding their head to degeneracy. We live in clown world because god forbid we judge a sick fuck as a sick fuck.
Please do infer that I looooove furries. LOL You thick fuck.
Furries are morons but why do you even give a toss if they bang each other? Are they destroying the world? Don't like it don't read it.
Far more dangerous are far-right conservative Christians that want to try to ban and control everything others do. I piss on your bible. Truth be told you are just another homophobe who is terrified that the US and A will be 'infected'.
Of course, I'm not having a go at the more sensible and moderate Christians out there, just the bedwetters like yourself and that other twonk.
Saying "hey man, cut that shit out. This is a public place." is not a political or religious statement. It's not about being gay or straight or whatever. Seeing weird shit in an RPG and saying "Oh man, that's fucking revolting. What the fuck?" isn't either. Nor is it "controlling people". Or are the very concept of laws a fascist statement to you? I'm not even American. I don't know what weird shit happens there. But for fuck's sake, we have drag queens walking around town with their dicks out reading stories to kids and advocating for genital mutilation. And it all started with people getting afraid of being "bigots" for telling that weirdo in the LGS to stop going on about his bestiality kink. And that guy deciding to write a book with his kink front and center. Which tells the other degenerates that they're fine to do whatever they want and in public too. Because people like you shout down anyone who just wants to get on with their day without seeing a fucking furry orgy in their RPG book. That is not a left/right issue. It is not political. It's not even sexual. It's normal people versus weird fetishists. Oh so terrible. So bigoted. People are allowed to be disgusted by things and not want to see them in their daily lives. That's normal. The average person doesn't want to read about some fucked up furry orgy. And people are starting to care less and less about being called whatever the fuck you want to strawman in your head. What is even the point of an author showing his barely disguised fetish in an RPG book? God forbid people actually want to play an RPG.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 08:24:02 AM
Furries are morons but why do you even give a toss if they bang each other? Are they destroying the world? Don't like it don't read it.
Far more dangerous are far-right conservative Christians that want to try to ban and control everything others do. I piss on your bible. Truth be told you are just another homophobe who is terrified that the US and A will be 'infected'.
Of course, I'm not having a go at the more sensible and moderate Christians out there, just the bedwetters like yourself and that other twonk.
Based as hell.
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 22, 2022, 10:43:02 AM
In fact, usually if "conservatives" want to censor something these days, it's because they have been influenced by the left and are censoring something that they perceive as being too far right.
Oh Sure. LOL
The conservatives are not trying to ban transgender bathrooms and force creationism into the classroom.
The far-right I speak of is basically all those evangelical crumbly gits in the republican party. They make the English Tories look almost palatable in comparison.
But I don't really care, as far as I'm concerned the 'conservative evangelical Christians' and the Wokes are made from the same vile skin. You both want to control others.
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 10:57:00 AM
That's normal. The average person doesn't want to read about some fucked up furry orgy. And people are starting to care less and less about being called whatever the fuck you want to strawman in your head. What is even the point of an author showing his barely disguised fetish in an RPG book? God forbid people actually want to play an RPG.
So why are you reading it in the first place?
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 11:22:49 AM
Oh Sure. LOL
The conservatives are not trying to ban transgender bathrooms and force creationism into the classroom.
Is banning transgender bathrooms a free speech issue? It is the left who are forcing people to act like trans "women" are actual women, to include letting them into girls' locker rooms and competing in women's sports. Including censoring people for disagreeing with the trans agenda. Bathrooms are part of that, probably a more minor part, but regardless of what anybody thinks of the entire trans issue, the right isn't trying to censor anyone based on their opinions about it.
I don't think that there are many US public school classrooms teaching creationism. There are a vocal minority within what is sometimes called "the religious right" that care very much about their children not being taught evolution. Which I can sympathize with, since no parents should abide by having beliefs that they object to forced on their children. In recent decades, these parents tend to just home school their kids rather than try to change the unsalvageable public school system. Which is also something I sympathize with, especially as a homeschooling mom.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 11:22:49 AMThe far-right I speak of is basically all those evangelical crumbly gits in the republican party. They make the English Tories look almost palatable in comparison.
"Far right" is essentially a meaningless term in this day and age. It could mean evangelical Christians, which is how you seem to use it, it could mean someone who actually believes in biological science like X and Y chromosomes, it could be someone who isn't racist against white people, or it could mean someone who is anti-war. Basically, "the far right" are just people who disagree with the establishment's narrative on at least one important issue.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 11:22:49 AMBut I don't really care, as far as I'm concerned the 'conservative evangelical Christians' and the Wokes are made from the same vile skin. You both want to control others.
Maybe in the past (meaning before most of the people here were born) there could be some comparison between social conservatives and social leftists, but since the turning of the millennium the woke have become so much more extreme and downright nasty while the social conservatives have become so relatively innocuous that any comparison is absurd.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 11:22:49 AMYou both want to control others.
Who is this "you" that you speak of?
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 11:51:17 AM
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 22, 2022, 11:49:58 AM
Who is this "you" that you speak of?
You.
I can translate from deranged leftist.
He's saying you should shut up and let the deranged fetishists rape you in the bathroom, you mean old bigot. Women are only allowed to speak when it serves the correct agenda.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 11:51:17 AM
You.
I wondered if that is what you meant.
I'm not even a Christian at all, much less an evangelical one.
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 11:55:16 AM
I can translate from deranged leftist.
He's saying you should shut up and let the deranged fetishists rape you in the bathroom, you mean old bigot. Women are only allowed to speak when it serves the correct agenda.
Yeah apparently so.
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 11:55:16 AM
He's saying you should shut up and let the deranged fetishists rape you in the bathroom, you mean old bigot.
How many trans women have been raping women in the bathroom again? Women are far more likely to be attacked in the street by men. But you pull your 'facts' out of your arse so they can suit your
Christian political position.
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 22, 2022, 11:59:09 AM
I'm not even a Christian at all, much less an evangelical one.
I didn't say you were did I? I'm just using broad strokes to fit 'you' conservative types into the one heap. Or anyone who wants to ban, censor, or stifle media.
As far as I'm concerned 'you' all fall under the same Tipper Gore outrage umbrella, along with the woke scolds of course.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 12:05:12 PM
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 22, 2022, 11:59:09 AM
I'm not even a Christian at all, much less an evangelical one.
I didn't say you were did I? I'm just using broad strokes to fit 'you' conservative types into the one heap. Or anyone who wants to ban, censor, or stifle media.
As far as I'm concerned 'you' all fall under the same Tipper Gore outrage umbrella, along with the woke scolds of course.
What is it that you think I want to censor? I completely oppose censorship.
Of course, if people say things that I disagree with, I will express disagreement, and if people say things that I think are absurd or immoral then it is my right to criticize or ridicule them. That isn't censorship though.
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 10:57:00 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 08:24:02 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 08:12:17 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 21, 2022, 07:25:35 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2022, 02:42:26 PM
Honestly, I'm not even really upset about that. Horrified? Disgusted? Certainly. Like, one of the books includes a magic ritual where the participants must have furry sex.
LOL won't, someone, think of the children!?
Luckily nobody gives a shit what you like or don't otherwise we'd all be playing patty-cake with multi-colored eunuch-corns.
You big girl's blouse.
Oddly enough people can dislike something, find it morally reprehensible or otherwise repugnant. You should find weird furry shit gross. But you don't. Which says more about you than anything else. That shit should be done in the privacy of one's own home and not enacted in a public group. I'm not even all that conservative but I'm fed up with people just nodding their head to degeneracy. We live in clown world because god forbid we judge a sick fuck as a sick fuck.
Please do infer that I looooove furries. LOL You thick fuck.
Furries are morons but why do you even give a toss if they bang each other? Are they destroying the world? Don't like it don't read it.
Far more dangerous are far-right conservative Christians that want to try to ban and control everything others do. I piss on your bible. Truth be told you are just another homophobe who is terrified that the US and A will be 'infected'.
Of course, I'm not having a go at the more sensible and moderate Christians out there, just the bedwetters like yourself and that other twonk.
Saying "hey man, cut that shit out. This is a public place." is not a political or religious statement. It's not about being gay or straight or whatever. Seeing weird shit in an RPG and saying "Oh man, that's fucking revolting. What the fuck?" isn't either. Nor is it "controlling people". Or are the very concept of laws a fascist statement to you? I'm not even American. I don't know what weird shit happens there. But for fuck's sake, we have drag queens walking around town with their dicks out reading stories to kids and advocating for genital mutilation. And it all started with people getting afraid of being "bigots" for telling that weirdo in the LGS to stop going on about his bestiality kink. And that guy deciding to write a book with his kink front and center. Which tells the other degenerates that they're fine to do whatever they want and in public too. Because people like you shout down anyone who just wants to get on with their day without seeing a fucking furry orgy in their RPG book. That is not a left/right issue. It is not political. It's not even sexual. It's normal people versus weird fetishists. Oh so terrible. So bigoted. People are allowed to be disgusted by things and not want to see them in their daily lives. That's normal. The average person doesn't want to read about some fucked up furry orgy. And people are starting to care less and less about being called whatever the fuck you want to strawman in your head. What is even the point of an author showing his barely disguised fetish in an RPG book? God forbid people actually want to play an RPG.
IDK, there's a lot of stuff being conflated in this post. Someone writing an RPG book that included one "furry" sex ritual (when was that? Decades ago? Don't recall the details if I even saw it) has nothing to do with drag queens walking around town with their dicks out (did this part actually happen?) reading stories to kids and advocating for genital mutilation. WW books aren't even mainstream or marketed at kids (at least not the old ones we're discussing), but explicitly edgy and for adults.
So yeah, expecting them to censor themselves is political and not just about decency, because writing an explicitly adult book not marketed at children is not equivalent to public sex acts or grooming kids. If there are people actually RPing that shit out in public that'd be a different thing. But that sort of behavior is a separate thing from edgy RPG books for games that can be RPed in private simply existing.
And you obviously have a right to complain about it if you want, but so do other people when it comes to disagreeing with you. And you don't have to read a book that includes material you find objectionable.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 22, 2022, 12:27:22 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 10:57:00 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 08:24:02 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 08:12:17 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 21, 2022, 07:25:35 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2022, 02:42:26 PM
Honestly, I'm not even really upset about that. Horrified? Disgusted? Certainly. Like, one of the books includes a magic ritual where the participants must have furry sex.
LOL won't, someone, think of the children!?
Luckily nobody gives a shit what you like or don't otherwise we'd all be playing patty-cake with multi-colored eunuch-corns.
You big girl's blouse.
Oddly enough people can dislike something, find it morally reprehensible or otherwise repugnant. You should find weird furry shit gross. But you don't. Which says more about you than anything else. That shit should be done in the privacy of one's own home and not enacted in a public group. I'm not even all that conservative but I'm fed up with people just nodding their head to degeneracy. We live in clown world because god forbid we judge a sick fuck as a sick fuck.
Please do infer that I looooove furries. LOL You thick fuck.
Furries are morons but why do you even give a toss if they bang each other? Are they destroying the world? Don't like it don't read it.
Far more dangerous are far-right conservative Christians that want to try to ban and control everything others do. I piss on your bible. Truth be told you are just another homophobe who is terrified that the US and A will be 'infected'.
Of course, I'm not having a go at the more sensible and moderate Christians out there, just the bedwetters like yourself and that other twonk.
Saying "hey man, cut that shit out. This is a public place." is not a political or religious statement. It's not about being gay or straight or whatever. Seeing weird shit in an RPG and saying "Oh man, that's fucking revolting. What the fuck?" isn't either. Nor is it "controlling people". Or are the very concept of laws a fascist statement to you? I'm not even American. I don't know what weird shit happens there. But for fuck's sake, we have drag queens walking around town with their dicks out reading stories to kids and advocating for genital mutilation. And it all started with people getting afraid of being "bigots" for telling that weirdo in the LGS to stop going on about his bestiality kink. And that guy deciding to write a book with his kink front and center. Which tells the other degenerates that they're fine to do whatever they want and in public too. Because people like you shout down anyone who just wants to get on with their day without seeing a fucking furry orgy in their RPG book. That is not a left/right issue. It is not political. It's not even sexual. It's normal people versus weird fetishists. Oh so terrible. So bigoted. People are allowed to be disgusted by things and not want to see them in their daily lives. That's normal. The average person doesn't want to read about some fucked up furry orgy. And people are starting to care less and less about being called whatever the fuck you want to strawman in your head. What is even the point of an author showing his barely disguised fetish in an RPG book? God forbid people actually want to play an RPG.
IDK, there's a lot of stuff being conflated in this post. Someone writing an RPG book that included one "furry" sex ritual (when was that? Decades ago? Don't recall the details if I even saw it) has nothing to do with drag queens walking around town with their dicks out (did this part actually happen?) reading stories to kids and advocating for genital mutilation. WW books aren't even mainstream or marketed at kids (at least not the old ones we're discussing), but explicitly edgy and for adults.
So yeah, expecting them to censor themselves is political and not just about decency, because writing an explicitly adult book not marketed at children is not equivalent to public sex acts or grooming kids. If there are people actually RPing that shit out in public that'd be a different thing. But that sort of behavior is a separate thing from edgy RPG books for games that can be RPed in private simply existing.
And you obviously have a right to complain about it if you want, but so do other people when it comes to disagreeing with you. And you don't have to read a book that includes material you find objectionable.
Said it better than I could of. ;D
Yeah, a lot of the slippery slope fallacy going on here too.
It's all about having 'the right to choose' what you want to consume or not (as long as it's legal of course). I've no problem with people complaining at all it's par for the course. What I find objectionable is calling people degenerates who like 'x' material. While their group is wholesome and trying to protect
Christian traditional values.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 11:59:24 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 11:55:16 AM
He's saying you should shut up and let the deranged fetishists rape you in the bathroom, you mean old bigot.
How many trans women have been raping women in the bathroom again? Women are far more likely to be attacked in the street by men. But you pull your 'facts' out of your arse so they can suit your Christian political position.
I don't recall the details, but there was at least one case of a girl being raped in a school bathroom (or was it locker room?) by some kid who identified as trans and the school trying to hide it.
This is a somewhat separate issue from the fear of actual trans women raping women in bathrooms (which may or may not be a valid fear depending on the context). But incidents have happened.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 22, 2022, 12:36:51 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 11:59:24 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 22, 2022, 11:55:16 AM
He's saying you should shut up and let the deranged fetishists rape you in the bathroom, you mean old bigot.
How many trans women have been raping women in the bathroom again? Women are far more likely to be attacked in the street by men. But you pull your 'facts' out of your arse so they can suit your Christian political position.
I don't recall the details, but there was at least one case of a girl being raped in a school bathroom (or was it locker room?) by some kid who identified as trans and the school trying to hide it.
This is a somewhat separate issue from the fear of actual trans women raping women in bathrooms (which may or may not be a valid fear depending on the context). But incidents have happened.
I've heard of one documented case and one in a prison in the UK. But basically, it's so rare that it's not a concern. You'd have more males invading a bathroom to rape a woman. I don't think women have to worry about being attacked by trans.
Trans women in sport is a different matter (AKA -Lia Thompson for one example). There are legitimate concerns over those cases. However, that would have to be sorted by scientists (and should be!).
It's likely really hard to get statistics about the number of trans woman sexual offenses, especially especially access to female only places to facilitate those crimes, in large part because that information is going to suppressed.
I did find an interesting link to data from prisoners in the UK:
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/
This is the important information:
Quote
MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. This includes 36 convictions for rape and 10 for attempted rape. These are clearly male type crimes (rape is defined as penetration with a penis).
Here is the number compared with figures for sex offending rates in men and women over the same period.
Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%
This is to say that among prisoners in the UK, 16.8% of men are sex offenders and 58.9% of transwomen are sex offenders. This does tend to at least provide some statistical support for fears of predatory behavior.
We're going pretty far on a tangent here though. Maybe with should back to furry degenerate werewolf players.
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 22, 2022, 12:52:07 PM
We're going pretty far on a tangent here though. Maybe with should back to furry degenerate werewolf players.
Indeed... I'd have to see those stats go through a legitimate peer-reviewed journal before I'd take them at face value.
But back at the topic. While I certainly giggle at furries I certainly stand by their rights to be whatever they want, as long as it's with consenting adults.
And werewolf on werewolf action in all its vivid description in-game is fine if that's your thing and that's the type of game you're all into. I don't particularly want to play it, to be honest, I like horror and violence. But I won't stop anyone else from doing so, or call them wrong.
If you're having fun and not hurting anyone else then I say 'you do you'.
If weirdos want to play their weird furry fetish shit, whatever. Where I get pissed off is when they insult me for thinking that's gross and not wanting to engage in it. WW's games are quite frankly disgusting, both politically and sexually, and I don't want anything to do with it. Unfortunately, it's the only werewolf/vampire/whatever roleplaying game there is. So my choice is between engaging with these autistic degenerates or not playing at all.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2022, 02:00:24 PM
If weirdos want to play their weird furry fetish shit, whatever. Where I get pissed off is when they insult me for thinking that's gross and not wanting to engage in it. WW's games are quite frankly disgusting, both politically and sexually, and I don't want anything to do with it. Unfortunately, it's the only werewolf/vampire/whatever roleplaying game there is. So my choice is between engaging with these autistic degenerates or not playing at all.
That's cool...
And as long as we don't have to go anywhere near you and watch you suck off Christ's imaginary cock - Which I find exceedingly obscene and laughable at the same time.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 02:06:40 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2022, 02:00:24 PM
If weirdos want to play their weird furry fetish shit, whatever. Where I get pissed off is when they insult me for thinking that's gross and not wanting to engage in it. WW's games are quite frankly disgusting, both politically and sexually, and I don't want anything to do with it. Unfortunately, it's the only werewolf/vampire/whatever roleplaying game there is. So my choice is between engaging with these autistic degenerates or not playing at all.
That's cool...
And as long as we don't have to go anywhere near you and watch you suck off Christ's imaginary cock - Which I find exceedingly obscene and laughable at the same time.
I'm an atheist.
DP
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2022, 02:10:05 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 02:06:40 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 22, 2022, 02:00:24 PM
If weirdos want to play their weird furry fetish shit, whatever. Where I get pissed off is when they insult me for thinking that's gross and not wanting to engage in it. WW's games are quite frankly disgusting, both politically and sexually, and I don't want anything to do with it. Unfortunately, it's the only werewolf/vampire/whatever roleplaying game there is. So my choice is between engaging with these autistic degenerates or not playing at all.
That's cool...
And as long as we don't have to go anywhere near you and watch you suck off Christ's imaginary cock - Which I find exceedingly obscene and laughable at the same time.
I'm an atheist.
Good 4 U.
Just a particularly bad one... Who's woke and conservative as fuck.
[probably the wrong forum]
Several pages of village idiot applicants doing to one group exactly what they bitch incessantly about the Woke doing to them.
Get a mirror. You are just another form of Moral Guardian pushing oppression, censorship, and unreasoning hate.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 11:22:49 AM
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 22, 2022, 10:43:02 AM
In fact, usually if "conservatives" want to censor something these days, it's because they have been influenced by the left and are censoring something that they perceive as being too far right.
Oh Sure. LOL
The conservatives are not trying to ban transgender bathrooms and force creationism into the classroom.
Transgender bathrooms? What is that? Bathrooms for trans people only? Or are you talking about banning males (trans women) from the women's bathroom?
As for the creationism in schools part, that made the political right unpalatable to me too back in the day. But I think it's been 15 years or more since we saw the last of that in any meaningful way, and even then I don't think most Republicans were that keen on it. Right now, the woke attempt at takeover is much worse, led to more violence, and has been much more successful.
Quote from: Trond on April 22, 2022, 05:38:27 PM
Right now, the woke attempt at takeover is much worse, led to more violence, and has been much more successful.
Two sides of the same 'extreme' coin both effluent as far as I'm concerned.
Although, I don't have a problem with your 'average' conservative or churchgoer.
Also, I thought we've moved beyond all this and we're supposed to go back to WW?
Was WW ever coercing people into changing their vocabulary? Were they demanding that people adppt a whole new set of pronouns? Were they telling people that long used and accepted words were now forbidden because in their newspeak they were offensive? Were they actively organizing efforts to harass, persecute and cancel culture people out of their careers and livliehoods?
If not then no they were not woke, because that's what woke is.
Quote from: Battlemaster on April 26, 2022, 06:38:21 AM
If not then no they were not woke, because that's what woke is.
Nailed it.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 26, 2022, 06:41:01 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on April 26, 2022, 06:38:21 AM
If not then no they were not woke, because that's what woke is.
Nailed it.
Thank you. Really. I'm glad to see someone agree with my definition.
Quote from: Battlemaster on April 26, 2022, 06:38:21 AM
Was WW ever coercing people into changing their vocabulary? Were they demanding that people adppt a whole new set of pronouns?
Yes. They just are limited in enforcement because they are books anybody can buy.
Its very limited to assume that cultural pushes and demands are weaker then political pushes and demands.
Quote from: Trond on April 22, 2022, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 22, 2022, 11:22:49 AM
Quote from: ShieldWife on April 22, 2022, 10:43:02 AM
In fact, usually if "conservatives" want to censor something these days, it's because they have been influenced by the left and are censoring something that they perceive as being too far right.
Oh Sure. LOL
The conservatives are not trying to ban transgender bathrooms and force creationism into the classroom.
Transgender bathrooms? What is that? Bathrooms for trans people only? Or are you talking about banning males (trans women) from the women's bathroom?
As for the creationism in schools part, that made the political right unpalatable to me too back in the day. But I think it's been 15 years or more since we saw the last of that in any meaningful way, and even then I don't think most Republicans were that keen on it. Right now, the woke attempt at takeover is much worse, led to more violence, and has been much more successful.
How dare the women want to be able to pee without seeing a stranger's feminine penis!?
Ah the classic "Not enforcing our political will is the same as us taking away your options"
Quote from: Battlemaster on April 26, 2022, 06:38:21 AM
Was WW ever coercing people into changing their vocabulary? Were they demanding that people adppt a whole new set of pronouns? Were they telling people that long used and accepted words were now forbidden because in their newspeak they were offensive? Were they actively organizing efforts to harass, persecute and cancel culture people out of their careers and livliehoods?
If not then no they were not woke, because that's what woke is.
They were one of the prior waves version of woke, which was overall not as stringent as the current 2010 wave. But they were playing the game of that era.
"boo hoo hoo Native Americans! Boo hoo hoo Native Americans!" remember that? Yeah. The trailing end of the 70s waves pet minority before the 90s wave switched to mostly championing hispanics.
This is not a thread to discuss politics outside of gaming.
I dont think anyone had yet? We are still kicking White Wolf for some of its early woke material. Which compared to the current iteration of the Woke agenda. Was relatively mild overall. Shadowrun jumped on the same bandwagon. And over time watered down its NA elements with each edition.
Now-a-days WW is too busy bending knee rather than being edgy.
Quote from: Omega on April 30, 2022, 05:16:59 PM
I dont think anyone had yet? We are still kicking White Wolf for some of its early woke material. Which compared to the current iteration of the Woke agenda. Was relatively mild overall. Shadowrun jumped on the same bandwagon. And over time watered down its NA elements with each edition.
Now-a-days WW is too busy bending knee rather than being edgy.
Renraku is one of my favourite campaign/splatbooks ever. It's like an pen and paper version of System Shock. I doubt such a book would be made today.
To get back on topic, I think the big issue isn't just a White Wolf issue. A lot of RPG makers hired people from California, Portland, and so on. They all leaned left at a time when doing so was the counter culture and edgy thing to do. White Wolf in particular took that MTV style of punk mixed it with Goth culture at the time (which also leaned left due to conservative christians) the issue is a lot of these people are now in their 40's and are DESPERATELY trying to delude themselves and other people into believing they're still hip and counter culture. So they double down which results in shit like VtM becoming a political manifesto. Because these 40 year old men are so desperate for validation from younger people that they will just throw these IPs at them. They aren't thinking about business or making money. It's pure emotional need. And then you get into the situation where these out of touch Gen-X to early Millennial guys were still not getting enough validation so outright gave control of things like White Wolf to idiot young people who were even more sick and twisted than the OGs. You can say the same about the Comic book industry which has similar issues. Lots of out of touch old men trying desperately to stay relevant and not realizing the cognitive dissonance their actions are causing. We even have one who occasionally posts here in Zak Sabbath. He's a textbook example. The RPG industry was always doomed tbh.
I'm currently working on some retroclones myself, taking into account how urban fantasy fiction has evolved significantly since the early 90s. For example, my take on werewolves uses modern tropes like born vs bitten and alpha/beta/omega biological divisions.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 01, 2022, 09:48:08 AM
I'm currently working on some retroclones myself, taking into account how urban fantasy fiction has evolved significantly since the early 90s. For example, my take on werewolves uses modern tropes like born vs bitten and alpha/beta/omega biological divisions.
If you want to be ahead of the curve on the understanding of wolf behavior then nuke the alpha/beta/omega thing as its been wholly discredited in the last few years. It turns out that packs are almost entirely immediate families and "alpha" is really just "mom and dad" and "omega" is just the youngest members of the family.
double post. disregard.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 10:37:03 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 01, 2022, 09:48:08 AM
I'm currently working on some retroclones myself, taking into account how urban fantasy fiction has evolved significantly since the early 90s. For example, my take on werewolves uses modern tropes like born vs bitten and alpha/beta/omega biological divisions.
If you want to be ahead of the curve on the understanding of wolf behavior then nuke the alpha/beta/omega thing as its been wholly discredited in the last few years. It turns out that packs are almost entirely immediate families and "alpha" is really just "mom and dad" and "omega" is just the youngest members of the family.
Thank you for the advice. I'm not using it in that sense. In my current treatment, alpha/beta/omega describes the werewolf's level of control over and cultivation of their inner wolf. Omegas have no control and change involuntarily under the full moon, betas have it mostly controlled and can change at will, and alphas have amazing abilities like turning new werewolves with just a bite.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 01, 2022, 10:57:32 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 10:37:03 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 01, 2022, 09:48:08 AM
I'm currently working on some retroclones myself, taking into account how urban fantasy fiction has evolved significantly since the early 90s. For example, my take on werewolves uses modern tropes like born vs bitten and alpha/beta/omega biological divisions.
If you want to be ahead of the curve on the understanding of wolf behavior then nuke the alpha/beta/omega thing as its been wholly discredited in the last few years. It turns out that packs are almost entirely immediate families and "alpha" is really just "mom and dad" and "omega" is just the youngest members of the family.
Thank you for the advice. I'm not using it in that sense. In my current treatment, alpha/beta/omega describes the werewolf's level of control over and cultivation of their inner wolf. Omegas have no control and change involuntarily under the full moon, betas have it mostly controlled and can change at will, and alphas have amazing abilities like turning new werewolves with just a bite.
Fair enough. Might I suggest then that werewolves use the terms ironically? As in, "we always known that understanding of pack behavior was rubbish, but it's such a good analogy for control of our abilities we stole it and applied it to our level of control."
Because I guarantee otherwise someone will presume it means only the heads of packs can have full control.
As an aside, as our understanding of wolf behavior has changed them from rapacious monsters to hierarchical packs to families that do their best to avoid humans, exploring the "adventuring party" as a true family akin to real wolf packs (versus the high school clique mentality that the alpha/beta/omega understanding fostered) focused on protecting their territory from other hostile supernaturals might be an interesting and mostly unexplored area to explore with an inbuilt reason for party affinity and unity.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PM
Fair enough. Might I suggest then that werewolves use the terms ironically? As in, "we always known that understanding of pack behavior was rubbish, but it's such a good analogy for control of our abilities we stole it and applied it to our level of control."
I'm using the Greek letters because it's an established trope in modern urban fantasy and I haven't thought about how the jargon came about in-universe.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PMBecause I guarantee otherwise someone will presume it means only the heads of packs can have full control.
While alpha status may make it easier to become a pack leader (particularly if it's a lone alpha who built their own pack of betas by biting/turning muggles), pack leaders are not the only werewolves who can be alphas and vice versa.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PMAs an aside, as our understanding of wolf behavior has changed them from rapacious monsters to hierarchical packs to families that do their best to avoid humans, exploring the "adventuring party" as a true family akin to real wolf packs (versus the high school clique mentality that the alpha/beta/omega understanding fostered) focused on protecting their territory from other hostile supernaturals might be an interesting and mostly unexplored area to explore with an inbuilt reason for party affinity and unity.
Yeah, this is essentially how I imagine that rural werewolf society has developed, whereas urban werewolves are structured more like gangs. The rural werewolves are typically composed of families of hereditary werewolves with the occasional adopted bitten, and their social hierarchical is similar to that of traditional human cultures with leadership positions generally held in accordance with age. Meanwhile, the urban werewolf packs are composed mostly of muggles who have been bitten with the source of the infection coming from a minority of hereditary alphas who are often several generations removed from their werewolf ancestors. At least in the United States, I guess.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 02, 2022, 10:13:29 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PM
Fair enough. Might I suggest then that werewolves use the terms ironically? As in, "we always known that understanding of pack behavior was rubbish, but it's such a good analogy for control of our abilities we stole it and applied it to our level of control."
I'm using the Greek letters because it's an established trope in modern urban fantasy and I haven't thought about how the jargon came about in-universe.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PMBecause I guarantee otherwise someone will presume it means only the heads of packs can have full control.
While alpha status may make it easier to become a pack leader (particularly if it's a lone alpha who built their own pack of betas by biting/turning muggles), pack leaders are not the only werewolves who can be alphas and vice versa.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PMAs an aside, as our understanding of wolf behavior has changed them from rapacious monsters to hierarchical packs to families that do their best to avoid humans, exploring the "adventuring party" as a true family akin to real wolf packs (versus the high school clique mentality that the alpha/beta/omega understanding fostered) focused on protecting their territory from other hostile supernaturals might be an interesting and mostly unexplored area to explore with an inbuilt reason for party affinity and unity.
Yeah, this is essentially how I imagine that rural werewolf society has developed, whereas urban werewolves are structured more like gangs. The rural werewolves are typically composed of families of hereditary werewolves with the occasional adopted bitten, and their social hierarchical is similar to that of traditional human cultures with leadership positions generally held in accordance with age. Meanwhile, the urban werewolf packs are composed mostly of muggles who have been bitten with the source of the infection coming from a minority of hereditary alphas who are often several generations removed from their werewolf ancestors. At least in the United States, I guess.
What little I've read of your research I like.
That being said...
Making your werewolfs different to make them unique I get and deeply approve.
Making your werewolfs different because "that's not how wolfs act IRLtm!"... It's a game about werewolfs and other non-existent monsters, why would anyone expect or want realismtm in it?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 01:26:33 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 02, 2022, 10:13:29 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PM
Fair enough. Might I suggest then that werewolves use the terms ironically? As in, "we always known that understanding of pack behavior was rubbish, but it's such a good analogy for control of our abilities we stole it and applied it to our level of control."
I'm using the Greek letters because it's an established trope in modern urban fantasy and I haven't thought about how the jargon came about in-universe.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PMBecause I guarantee otherwise someone will presume it means only the heads of packs can have full control.
While alpha status may make it easier to become a pack leader (particularly if it's a lone alpha who built their own pack of betas by biting/turning muggles), pack leaders are not the only werewolves who can be alphas and vice versa.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PMAs an aside, as our understanding of wolf behavior has changed them from rapacious monsters to hierarchical packs to families that do their best to avoid humans, exploring the "adventuring party" as a true family akin to real wolf packs (versus the high school clique mentality that the alpha/beta/omega understanding fostered) focused on protecting their territory from other hostile supernaturals might be an interesting and mostly unexplored area to explore with an inbuilt reason for party affinity and unity.
Yeah, this is essentially how I imagine that rural werewolf society has developed, whereas urban werewolves are structured more like gangs. The rural werewolves are typically composed of families of hereditary werewolves with the occasional adopted bitten, and their social hierarchical is similar to that of traditional human cultures with leadership positions generally held in accordance with age. Meanwhile, the urban werewolf packs are composed mostly of muggles who have been bitten with the source of the infection coming from a minority of hereditary alphas who are often several generations removed from their werewolf ancestors. At least in the United States, I guess.
What little I've read of your research I like.
That being said...
Making your werewolfs different to make them unique I get and deeply approve.
Making your werewolfs different because "that's not how wolfs act IRLtm!"... It's a game about werewolfs and other non-existent monsters, why would anyone expect or want realismtm in it?
Why would werewolves even act like wolves? They're able to turn into wolves, but they're still human. Or at least abhuman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhuman). I would expect them to organize much like humans in similar situations would, which is coincidentally similar to how wolves already organize. So I consider this a non-issue.
QuoteMaking your werewolfs different to make them unique I get and deeply approve.
That's probably not hard given that there's like only three kinds of plots that novels use nowadays: werewolf vs werewolf gang fighting, werewolf vs vampire/wizard/fairy/whatever gang fighting, and werewolf alpha male with effeminate heroine romance.
I'm also not trying to be all that different. My current treatment is essentially a laundry list of modern urban fantasy tropes (which are themselves the old Universal Horror rules with an extra layer of romanticism), with like one or two elements that might resemble WW mechanics.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 02, 2022, 01:57:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 01:26:33 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 02, 2022, 10:13:29 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PM
Fair enough. Might I suggest then that werewolves use the terms ironically? As in, "we always known that understanding of pack behavior was rubbish, but it's such a good analogy for control of our abilities we stole it and applied it to our level of control."
I'm using the Greek letters because it's an established trope in modern urban fantasy and I haven't thought about how the jargon came about in-universe.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PMBecause I guarantee otherwise someone will presume it means only the heads of packs can have full control.
While alpha status may make it easier to become a pack leader (particularly if it's a lone alpha who built their own pack of betas by biting/turning muggles), pack leaders are not the only werewolves who can be alphas and vice versa.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PMAs an aside, as our understanding of wolf behavior has changed them from rapacious monsters to hierarchical packs to families that do their best to avoid humans, exploring the "adventuring party" as a true family akin to real wolf packs (versus the high school clique mentality that the alpha/beta/omega understanding fostered) focused on protecting their territory from other hostile supernaturals might be an interesting and mostly unexplored area to explore with an inbuilt reason for party affinity and unity.
Yeah, this is essentially how I imagine that rural werewolf society has developed, whereas urban werewolves are structured more like gangs. The rural werewolves are typically composed of families of hereditary werewolves with the occasional adopted bitten, and their social hierarchical is similar to that of traditional human cultures with leadership positions generally held in accordance with age. Meanwhile, the urban werewolf packs are composed mostly of muggles who have been bitten with the source of the infection coming from a minority of hereditary alphas who are often several generations removed from their werewolf ancestors. At least in the United States, I guess.
What little I've read of your research I like.
That being said...
Making your werewolfs different to make them unique I get and deeply approve.
Making your werewolfs different because "that's not how wolfs act IRLtm!"... It's a game about werewolfs and other non-existent monsters, why would anyone expect or want realismtm in it?
Why would werewolves even act like wolves? They're able to turn into wolves, but they're still human. Or at least abhuman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhuman). I would expect them to organize much like humans in similar situations would, which is coincidentally similar to how wolves already organize. So I consider this a non-issue.
QuoteMaking your werewolfs different to make them unique I get and deeply approve.
That's probably not hard given that there's like only three kinds of plots that novels use nowadays: werewolf vs werewolf gang fighting, werewolf vs vampire/wizard/fairy/whatever gang fighting, and werewolf alpha male with effeminate heroine romance.
I'm also not trying to be all that different. My current treatment is essentially a laundry list of modern urban fantasy tropes (which are themselves the old Universal Horror rules with an extra layer of romanticism), with like one or two elements that might resemble WW mechanics.
Humans, in a war situation/environment organize in non-familial hierarchies, same goes for business (but that's just a different type of war). In said hierarchy the one on top is the more competent/stronger/etc.
Why would werewolfs not follow that IF they organize like humans?
So the Alpha would be the stronger/more competent one, but more competent for what? Do werewolfs need help learning to control their inner beast (be it a different spirit, their ID, whatever)? The betas would be the middle of the road and the Omegas the ones not really suited for war for whatever reason.
It could very well be that willingnes to use force to assert the dominance/protect combined with their control is what makes some Alphas.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 02:06:42 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 02, 2022, 01:57:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 01:26:33 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 02, 2022, 10:13:29 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PM
Fair enough. Might I suggest then that werewolves use the terms ironically? As in, "we always known that understanding of pack behavior was rubbish, but it's such a good analogy for control of our abilities we stole it and applied it to our level of control."
I'm using the Greek letters because it's an established trope in modern urban fantasy and I haven't thought about how the jargon came about in-universe.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PMBecause I guarantee otherwise someone will presume it means only the heads of packs can have full control.
While alpha status may make it easier to become a pack leader (particularly if it's a lone alpha who built their own pack of betas by biting/turning muggles), pack leaders are not the only werewolves who can be alphas and vice versa.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PMAs an aside, as our understanding of wolf behavior has changed them from rapacious monsters to hierarchical packs to families that do their best to avoid humans, exploring the "adventuring party" as a true family akin to real wolf packs (versus the high school clique mentality that the alpha/beta/omega understanding fostered) focused on protecting their territory from other hostile supernaturals might be an interesting and mostly unexplored area to explore with an inbuilt reason for party affinity and unity.
Yeah, this is essentially how I imagine that rural werewolf society has developed, whereas urban werewolves are structured more like gangs. The rural werewolves are typically composed of families of hereditary werewolves with the occasional adopted bitten, and their social hierarchical is similar to that of traditional human cultures with leadership positions generally held in accordance with age. Meanwhile, the urban werewolf packs are composed mostly of muggles who have been bitten with the source of the infection coming from a minority of hereditary alphas who are often several generations removed from their werewolf ancestors. At least in the United States, I guess.
What little I've read of your research I like.
That being said...
Making your werewolfs different to make them unique I get and deeply approve.
Making your werewolfs different because "that's not how wolfs act IRLtm!"... It's a game about werewolfs and other non-existent monsters, why would anyone expect or want realismtm in it?
Why would werewolves even act like wolves? They're able to turn into wolves, but they're still human. Or at least abhuman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhuman). I would expect them to organize much like humans in similar situations would, which is coincidentally similar to how wolves already organize. So I consider this a non-issue.
QuoteMaking your werewolfs different to make them unique I get and deeply approve.
That's probably not hard given that there's like only three kinds of plots that novels use nowadays: werewolf vs werewolf gang fighting, werewolf vs vampire/wizard/fairy/whatever gang fighting, and werewolf alpha male with effeminate heroine romance.
I'm also not trying to be all that different. My current treatment is essentially a laundry list of modern urban fantasy tropes (which are themselves the old Universal Horror rules with an extra layer of romanticism), with like one or two elements that might resemble WW mechanics.
Humans, in a war situation/environment organize in non-familial hierarchies, same goes for business (but that's just a different type of war). In said hierarchy the one on top is the more competent/stronger/etc.
Why would werewolfs not follow that IF they organize like humans?
So the Alpha would be the stronger/more competent one, but more competent for what? Do werewolfs need help learning to control their inner beast (be it a different spirit, their ID, whatever)? The betas would be the middle of the road and the Omegas the ones not really suited for war for whatever reason.
It could very well be that willingnes to use force to assert the dominance/protect combined with their control is what makes some Alphas.
I didn't say they wouldn't organize that way. That's similar to my own thoughts. Thanks for being so understanding.
In gang warfare, yes you would have alphas at the top and for multiple reasons. They can transform whenever they want and don't usually need to worry about losing control, whereas betas can transform whenever but may transform involuntarily in response to emotional stimuli, and omegas only transform involuntarily under the full moon or at mystical sites. But alphas can exert their animal empathy skills on the inner wolves of other werewolves, meaning that an alpha can tell an omega (particularly ones that alpha turned himself) to change on command back and forth.
This wouldn't really be necessary in hereditary werewolf communities because born werewolves usually awaken talented in beta level because they always had the wolf inside them even if they never knew until it came out. Some bloodlines are so talented that they almost always awaken as alphas, or so cursed that they almost always awaken as omegas.
Tldr; no, but it was liberal (as in classical liberal not the modern Leftist/Woke interpretation of Liberal). Sociological issues such as homosexuality and genderism were freely expressed but there was no virtue signaling like now.
On the one hand their books had stuff like werewolves having gay furry sex, and on the other they published an entire book depicting Romani as magical creatures with powers of thievery linked to purity of blood.
Nowadays they do stuff like introducing a mafia family whose surname is Puttanesca (https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Puttanesca). As in the sauce (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_alla_puttanesca). This is the equivalent of introducing an Indian family with the surname Chutney or Curry. The book thinks it's clever because the family is stated to have built their wealth by running brothels (the etymology comes from (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/puttanesca#Etymology) a word meaning "whorish"), but in practice it comes across as cringy, unintentionally comedic, and racist. (For reference, a lot of the seemingly invented jargon in WW games comes from the writers thinking they're being clever by using convoluted esoteric nonsensical etymologies. It doesn't help that they tend to use words that are obscure to American English speakers who make up most of the audience so the absurdity isn't noticed because most readers will think the words were made up by the writers.)
I allways thought it hilariously pathetic that a game about fighting corporate corruption and moral corruption and so on was run by a morrally bankrupt lot who regularly treated their workers like dirt, treated the customers like dirt, and "borrowed" ideas, sometimes whole cloth, from other, and better writers.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 22, 2022, 12:27:22 PM
IDK, there's a lot of stuff being conflated in this post. Someone writing an RPG book that included one "furry" sex ritual (when was that? Decades ago? Don't recall the details if I even saw it) has nothing to do with drag queens walking around town with their dicks out (did this part actually happen?) reading stories to kids and advocating for genital mutilation. WW books aren't even mainstream or marketed at kids (at least not the old ones we're discussing), but explicitly edgy and for adults.
The incident referenced I believe is covered at this link (https://thepostmillennial.com/drag-queen-flashes-young-children-at-drag-queen-story-hour).
As for the rest, I'll respond to the original question as someone who read WW books as a teenager: To me as a relatively culturally unaware teenager about 1998 onward when I started reading them... They were edy, a bit liberal-ish compared to my parents' standards, and as others have said "shock jock" type behavior comes to mind. The books were super depressing as fuck compared to your standard D&D book, to a young impressionable mind when I read M:tSC, M:tA, and V:tM at 14.
I must say, they also contrasted sharply from the books of the time. They evoked totally different story ideas and themes compared to what I was aware of in the market in the late 90s: D&D, Star Trek, Star Wars & Ars Magica RPG books. Most of what they wrote
that I remember was more of the "normal" liberalism, i.e.
maybe beating up gay people isn't such a great idea, mixed in with some Christian Bashing which was pretty normal for the time.
Werewolf the Apocalypse was the first RPG I ever GM'ed, and I did so at least once or twice a week, every week for years. It started as Werewolf, but branched it to a World Of Darkness game, but still very changers-based game. My friend ended up getting Vampire and Changeling.
We played it as a bunch of young teens, as male and working class, and it was mostly about cool monster fights. The programming slid off of us like water off a duck's back. In fact, if anything we had a good time poking fun at the proto-SJW parts.
Id say while not woke, they are the kinda 'pre-woke' that absolutely led to this point.
Almost all edgy 90s rebels have been the ones to most utterly embrace modern wokeness. Some get cancelled for being too 'edgy' for our time, but even then none of them ended up recanting or becoming introspective.
So have they always been woke? No, but thats because the term didn't exist back then. But wher ethey setting the stage for woke? Absolutely.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 25, 2022, 01:19:06 PM
Id say while not woke, they are the kinda 'pre-woke' that absolutely led to this point.
Almost all edgy 90s rebels have been the ones to most utterly embrace modern wokeness. Some get cancelled for being too 'edgy' for our time, but even then none of them ended up recanting or becoming introspective.
So have they always been woke? No, but thats because the term didn't exist back then. But wher ethey setting the stage for woke? Absolutely.
This is the point I make to old school Liberals that are living on Copium, about society going back to how it was in the 90's. Everything pushed in the 90's
directly led to where we are now. The slippery slopes we laughed at were actually slippery.
It turns out the people writing WoD weren't actually fighting the system, they were just fighting a system that wasn't theirs. Once the system aligned with them, they embraced it like a lover.
Paradox's decisions in 5e have alienated a lot of fans and, what with the video game and VTT focus, they show no signs of stopping. Has anyone taken the opportunity to make competing games for the urban fantasy market? They don't need to have succeeded, I'm just curious. It would be nice to play and discuss urban fantasy that isn't fun-hating liberal goth bullshit.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 09:39:49 AM
Paradox's decisions in 5e have alienated a lot of fans and, what with the video game and VTT focus, they show no signs of stopping. Has anyone taken the opportunity to make competing games for the urban fantasy market? They don't need to have succeeded, I'm just curious. It would be nice to play and discuss urban fantasy that isn't fun-hating liberal goth bullshit.
The most popular literary Urban Fantasy seems to be woman plus sexy Vampires/Werewolves/Dragons/Elves/Ghosts, so maybe it's a blessing.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2022, 02:03:56 AM
Werewolf the Apocalypse was the first RPG I ever GM'ed, and I did so at least once or twice a week, every week for years. It started as Werewolf, but branched it to a World Of Darkness game, but still very changers-based game. My friend ended up getting Vampire and Changeling.
We played it as a bunch of young teens, as male and working class, and it was mostly about cool monster fights. The programming slid off of us like water off a duck's back. In fact, if anything we had a good time poking fun at the proto-SJW parts.
I think RPGs are extremely poor vehicles for propaganda, because the GM and players control everything that happens. You're using your own imagination, which isn't constrained by what is written.
I played a Werewolf the Apocalypse campaign and a brief Mage the Ascension campaign. I hate the background of M:tA for having scientists as the evil oppressors keeping down free-thinking magicians, since I'm very pro-science in real life. But I could easily ignore those parts to play and poke fun at it, as you say.
Yeah, I didn't like the propaganda. The consensus reality premise has tons of ramifications that never occurred to the authors. Among other things, it means that homeopathy, antivaxxer, and flat-earther beliefs would become true if they murdered all the non-believers. The current crop of books walk back on that by making the technocrats parrot American left-wing talking points, even though this makes no sense with a consensus reality premise.
I like the idea of players flavoring their magic after different magical styles like Hermeticism, Wicca, Taoism, mad science, reality hackers, or whatever. I would give that to all splats, not just mortal magicians. However, I would avoid explaining it in terms of consensus reality to avoid inadvertently promoting beliefs that are dangerous in real life.
Getting upset at fantasy implications is a long and dumb history.
Its the stupid orcs stuff all over again. If you want your fantasy world to perfectly mirror the vision for modern morality throw out all your books and get newspapers and TV.
Edit: I personally really like some themes of mage, but I can't detail them now.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 26, 2022, 02:53:31 PM
Getting upset at fantasy implications is a long and dumb history.
Its the stupid orcs stuff all over again. If you want your fantasy world to perfectly mirror the vision for modern morality throw out all your books and get newspapers and TV.
Edit: I personally really like some themes of mage, but I can't detail them now.
Fair enough. I remember that the game cultivated a notoriously toxic argumentative community who were attracted by those beliefs. Upon the release of 3e, they sent Jess Henig so many death threats that he was afraid to open his inbox for years. I don't want to foster that sort of thing.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 03:03:10 PM
Fair enough. I remember that the game cultivated a notoriously toxic argumentative community who were attracted by those beliefs.
My personal rule is that all fanbases are toxic, some are more toxic then others. And yes WW is pretty toxic and awful as a general rule.
That never justifies demanding all fantasy conform to reality lest *gasp* someone think wrong thoughts! Because people can't be trusted with opinions!
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 26, 2022, 03:09:06 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 03:03:10 PM
Fair enough. I remember that the game cultivated a notoriously toxic argumentative community who were attracted by those beliefs.
My personal rule is that all fanbases are toxic, some are more toxic then others. And yes WW is pretty toxic and awful as a general rule.
That never justifies demanding all fantasy conform to reality lest *gasp* someone think wrong thoughts! Because people can't be trusted with opinions!
I'm not arguing that fantasy should conform to reality. I apologize for giving that impression. I'm just not interested in writing a setting that promotes science denial in its premise, to say nothing of the many other logical problems inherent to consensus reality.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 03:19:14 PM
I'm not arguing that fantasy should conform to reality. I apologize for giving that impression. I'm just not interested in writing a setting that promotes science denial in its premise, to say nothing of the many other logical problems inherent to consensus reality.
All urban fantasy is science denial unless its a "all magic is advanced tech" setting.
Not saying you have to be interested, but mulling about what fantasy implications mean will deny you any ability to have any sort of fantasy fun.
No, white wolf used to be progressive, but not every form of progressivism is woke. Woke progressivism only became popular in the later half of the 2000s. Initially it equated itself with old school progressivism, but in many ways it is counter to it.
It is a shame how many progressives were all to happy to betray their old beliefs or otherwise unable to recognize the sham of woke progressivism.
Quote from: jhkim on December 26, 2022, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2022, 02:03:56 AM
Werewolf the Apocalypse was the first RPG I ever GM'ed, and I did so at least once or twice a week, every week for years. It started as Werewolf, but branched it to a World Of Darkness game, but still very changers-based game. My friend ended up getting Vampire and Changeling.
We played it as a bunch of young teens, as male and working class, and it was mostly about cool monster fights. The programming slid off of us like water off a duck's back. In fact, if anything we had a good time poking fun at the proto-SJW parts.
I think RPGs are extremely poor vehicles for propaganda, because the GM and players control everything that happens. You're using your own imagination, which isn't constrained by what is written.
I played a Werewolf the Apocalypse campaign and a brief Mage the Ascension campaign. I hate the background of M:tA for having scientists as the evil oppressors keeping down free-thinking magicians, since I'm very pro-science in real life. But I could easily ignore those parts to play and poke fun at it, as you say.
The Technocratic Unions are not fighting for scientific progress.
If a scientist conducts research that the Union does not approve of they will shoot him in the head, destroy his corpse, and replace him with a clone. That clone will then sabotage his life's work.
Their standard approach to scientific research is suppression and control. Fighting for scientific progress is in-universe propaganda.
The Union are totalitarian technomages.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 01:42:48 PM
Yeah, I didn't like the propaganda. The consensus reality premise has tons of ramifications that never occurred to the authors. Among other things, it means that homeopathy, antivaxxer, and flat-earther beliefs would become true if they murdered all the non-believers. The current crop of books walk back on that by making the technocrats parrot American left-wing talking points, even though this makes no sense with a consensus reality premise.
I like the idea of players flavoring their magic after different magical styles like Hermeticism, Wicca, Taoism, mad science, reality hackers, or whatever. I would give that to all splats, not just mortal magicians. However, I would avoid explaining it in terms of consensus reality to avoid inadvertently promoting beliefs that are dangerous in real life.
The traditions aren't luddites either.
The common theme among them is self actualization. Heavy focus on learning, understanding, improving oneself. A large part of that is their need to understand their paradigm to a high degree. Don't throw away interesting stuff in favor of shallow aesthetics.
The second common theme among them is recognition and acceptance of different worldviews being able to interact and cooperate. That also requires a focus on how they believe the world functions. Throwing that away as well because you don't want to accidentally convince a player random shit (you won't, their mind will be made up about all of that way before they hit your table) is also sad.
Also your plan to murder people is a poor one. You wouldn't really be strengthening your paradigm, you'd just make reality more brittle until it kinda sorta might function, assuming you have enough of it left. Also it's impractical and the actual belief you'd convince people of is that you are pretty evil which - behold - would end up becoming the new actual reality.
-
Don't listen to the internet takes on the Traditions or the Union. Don't run them as 1-dimensional stereotypes. It's not fun. Science and technology can be used for both good and evil. The technocrats is an evil organisation with a few good people in it, the traditions is an good organization with a few evil people in it. Consensus reality has more depth to it than just 'belief defines reality'. It's what makes all of it fun. Without it you're just chucking boring sphere effects at random assortments of mooks. The setting having more depth than a simplistic 'science good, not science bad' is what has made the setting last for decades.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2022, 09:22:29 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 25, 2022, 01:19:06 PM
Id say while not woke, they are the kinda 'pre-woke' that absolutely led to this point.
Almost all edgy 90s rebels have been the ones to most utterly embrace modern wokeness. Some get cancelled for being too 'edgy' for our time, but even then none of them ended up recanting or becoming introspective.
So have they always been woke? No, but thats because the term didn't exist back then. But wher ethey setting the stage for woke? Absolutely.
This is the point I make to old school Liberals that are living on Copium, about society going back to how it was in the 90's. Everything pushed in the 90's directly led to where we are now. The slippery slopes we laughed at were actually slippery.
It turns out the people writing WoD weren't actually fighting the system, they were just fighting a system that wasn't theirs. Once the system aligned with them, they embraced it like a lover.
Nah, I used to be involved in leftist social media and the 90s culture did not directly led to our current circumstances. This was a recent development that happened with the rise of social media and got pushed by the algorithm and the realities of online advisement and making money online. I saw it change during the time of my own involvement in the late 2000s to early/mid 2010s. And there used to be healthier debate in leftist social media, where people could disagree with each other and not get immediately hounded off the internet and persecuted IRL.
I used to argue with people all the time and got zero flack for. The wokeness was there (before it was called that), but it was mostly at the margins of Tumblr, and you could point out that the "pay gap" wasn't what people thought it was without immediately being branded a sexist who wanted to keep women chained to the kitchen sink. It wasn't till the early 2010s when the woke mindset started to become more prevalent and criticism of it started to get strong pushback, which coincided with the use of algorithms to create curated feeds and push certain stories to the forefront, as well as the rise of Clickbait media to drive traffic to "news" sites and opinion blogs masquerading as such.
It wasn't till around that time when Intersectionality or "Intersectional Feminism" became prevalent in leftist cycles, and people started to become pressured into specifically identifying as a Feminist, with the implication that if you weren't a Feminist you were necessarily a sexist, that if you were a sexist you were necessarily bigoted and in favor of certain forms of oppression, and that if you were in favor of ANY kind of oppression you were not a "Leftist". Ergo, you're either a Feminist or you're not a Leftist, and by the way, by "Feminism", we mean "Intersectional Feminism", so that ALL identity-based activism necessarily came under the banner of Feminism.
NONE of this stuff used to be the case before, and Intersectionality was an obscure ideology before that. And it wasn't till Intersectionality became prevalent and started to get pushed by social media algorithms and the mainstream media that we got the culture that we had today. The slippery slope truly was a slippery slope. People who supported gay marriage then weren't all secretly hoping to groom kids and using gay marriage as a proxy for that. They just didn't give a shit about what other people did in their bedroom and their lack of concern for other people's sex life was not a direct line to woke taking over the world. This was pushed by big tech and the media that has been lying to us and serving as a propaganda wing for the establishment since before the internet.
This wasn't a natural or direct outgrowth of leftism or 90s liberalism. It was a PSYOP.
Quote from: rpgSeeker on December 26, 2022, 04:59:25 PM
No, white wolf used to be progressive, but not every form of progressivism is woke. Woke progressivism only became popular in the later half of the 2000s. Initially it equated itself with old school progressivism, but in many ways it is counter to it.
It is a shame how many progressives were all to happy to betray their old beliefs or otherwise unable to recognize the sham of woke progressivism.
Quote from: jhkim on December 26, 2022, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2022, 02:03:56 AM
Werewolf the Apocalypse was the first RPG I ever GM'ed, and I did so at least once or twice a week, every week for years. It started as Werewolf, but branched it to a World Of Darkness game, but still very changers-based game. My friend ended up getting Vampire and Changeling.
We played it as a bunch of young teens, as male and working class, and it was mostly about cool monster fights. The programming slid off of us like water off a duck's back. In fact, if anything we had a good time poking fun at the proto-SJW parts.
I think RPGs are extremely poor vehicles for propaganda, because the GM and players control everything that happens. You're using your own imagination, which isn't constrained by what is written.
I played a Werewolf the Apocalypse campaign and a brief Mage the Ascension campaign. I hate the background of M:tA for having scientists as the evil oppressors keeping down free-thinking magicians, since I'm very pro-science in real life. But I could easily ignore those parts to play and poke fun at it, as you say.
The Technocratic Unions are not fighting for scientific progress.
If a scientist conducts research that the Union does not approve of they will shoot him in the head, destroy his corpse, and replace him with a clone. That clone will then sabotage his life's work.
Their standard approach to scientific research is suppression and control. Fighting for scientific progress is in-universe propaganda.
The Union are totalitarian technomages.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 01:42:48 PM
Yeah, I didn't like the propaganda. The consensus reality premise has tons of ramifications that never occurred to the authors. Among other things, it means that homeopathy, antivaxxer, and flat-earther beliefs would become true if they murdered all the non-believers. The current crop of books walk back on that by making the technocrats parrot American left-wing talking points, even though this makes no sense with a consensus reality premise.
I like the idea of players flavoring their magic after different magical styles like Hermeticism, Wicca, Taoism, mad science, reality hackers, or whatever. I would give that to all splats, not just mortal magicians. However, I would avoid explaining it in terms of consensus reality to avoid inadvertently promoting beliefs that are dangerous in real life.
The traditions aren't luddites either.
The common theme among them is self actualization. Heavy focus on learning, understanding, improving oneself. A large part of that is their need to understand their paradigm to a high degree. Don't throw away interesting stuff in favor of shallow aesthetics.
The second common theme among them is recognition and acceptance of different worldviews being able to interact and cooperate. That also requires a focus on how they believe the world functions. Throwing that away as well because you don't want to accidentally convince a player random shit (you won't, their mind will be made up about all of that way before they hit your table) is also sad.
Also your plan to murder people is a poor one. You wouldn't really be strengthening your paradigm, you'd just make reality more brittle until it kinda sorta might function, assuming you have enough of it left. Also it's impractical and the actual belief you'd convince people of is that you are pretty evil which - behold - would end up becoming the new actual reality.
-
Don't listen to the internet takes on the Traditions or the Union. Don't run them as 1-dimensional stereotypes. It's not fun. Science and technology can be used for both good and evil. The technocrats is an evil organisation with a few good people in it, the traditions is an good organization with a few evil people in it. Consensus reality has more depth to it than just 'belief defines reality'. It's what makes all of it fun. Without it you're just chucking boring sphere effects at random assortments of mooks. The setting having more depth than a simplistic 'science good, not science bad' is what has made the setting last for decades.
I don't give a fuck.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 06:15:59 PM
Quote from: rpgSeeker on December 26, 2022, 04:59:25 PM
No, white wolf used to be progressive, but not every form of progressivism is woke. Woke progressivism only became popular in the later half of the 2000s. Initially it equated itself with old school progressivism, but in many ways it is counter to it.
It is a shame how many progressives were all to happy to betray their old beliefs or otherwise unable to recognize the sham of woke progressivism.
Quote from: jhkim on December 26, 2022, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2022, 02:03:56 AM
Werewolf the Apocalypse was the first RPG I ever GM'ed, and I did so at least once or twice a week, every week for years. It started as Werewolf, but branched it to a World Of Darkness game, but still very changers-based game. My friend ended up getting Vampire and Changeling.
We played it as a bunch of young teens, as male and working class, and it was mostly about cool monster fights. The programming slid off of us like water off a duck's back. In fact, if anything we had a good time poking fun at the proto-SJW parts.
I think RPGs are extremely poor vehicles for propaganda, because the GM and players control everything that happens. You're using your own imagination, which isn't constrained by what is written.
I played a Werewolf the Apocalypse campaign and a brief Mage the Ascension campaign. I hate the background of M:tA for having scientists as the evil oppressors keeping down free-thinking magicians, since I'm very pro-science in real life. But I could easily ignore those parts to play and poke fun at it, as you say.
The Technocratic Unions are not fighting for scientific progress.
If a scientist conducts research that the Union does not approve of they will shoot him in the head, destroy his corpse, and replace him with a clone. That clone will then sabotage his life's work.
Their standard approach to scientific research is suppression and control. Fighting for scientific progress is in-universe propaganda.
The Union are totalitarian technomages.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 01:42:48 PM
Yeah, I didn't like the propaganda. The consensus reality premise has tons of ramifications that never occurred to the authors. Among other things, it means that homeopathy, antivaxxer, and flat-earther beliefs would become true if they murdered all the non-believers. The current crop of books walk back on that by making the technocrats parrot American left-wing talking points, even though this makes no sense with a consensus reality premise.
I like the idea of players flavoring their magic after different magical styles like Hermeticism, Wicca, Taoism, mad science, reality hackers, or whatever. I would give that to all splats, not just mortal magicians. However, I would avoid explaining it in terms of consensus reality to avoid inadvertently promoting beliefs that are dangerous in real life.
The traditions aren't luddites either.
The common theme among them is self actualization. Heavy focus on learning, understanding, improving oneself. A large part of that is their need to understand their paradigm to a high degree. Don't throw away interesting stuff in favor of shallow aesthetics.
The second common theme among them is recognition and acceptance of different worldviews being able to interact and cooperate. That also requires a focus on how they believe the world functions. Throwing that away as well because you don't want to accidentally convince a player random shit (you won't, their mind will be made up about all of that way before they hit your table) is also sad.
Also your plan to murder people is a poor one. You wouldn't really be strengthening your paradigm, you'd just make reality more brittle until it kinda sorta might function, assuming you have enough of it left. Also it's impractical and the actual belief you'd convince people of is that you are pretty evil which - behold - would end up becoming the new actual reality.
-
Don't listen to the internet takes on the Traditions or the Union. Don't run them as 1-dimensional stereotypes. It's not fun. Science and technology can be used for both good and evil. The technocrats is an evil organisation with a few good people in it, the traditions is an good organization with a few evil people in it. Consensus reality has more depth to it than just 'belief defines reality'. It's what makes all of it fun. Without it you're just chucking boring sphere effects at random assortments of mooks. The setting having more depth than a simplistic 'science good, not science bad' is what has made the setting last for decades.
I don't give a fuck.
Then you're retarded. Do us a favor and eat some lead.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 26, 2022, 07:38:18 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 06:15:59 PM
Quote from: rpgSeeker on December 26, 2022, 04:59:25 PM
No, white wolf used to be progressive, but not every form of progressivism is woke. Woke progressivism only became popular in the later half of the 2000s. Initially it equated itself with old school progressivism, but in many ways it is counter to it.
It is a shame how many progressives were all to happy to betray their old beliefs or otherwise unable to recognize the sham of woke progressivism.
Quote from: jhkim on December 26, 2022, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2022, 02:03:56 AM
Werewolf the Apocalypse was the first RPG I ever GM'ed, and I did so at least once or twice a week, every week for years. It started as Werewolf, but branched it to a World Of Darkness game, but still very changers-based game. My friend ended up getting Vampire and Changeling.
We played it as a bunch of young teens, as male and working class, and it was mostly about cool monster fights. The programming slid off of us like water off a duck's back. In fact, if anything we had a good time poking fun at the proto-SJW parts.
I think RPGs are extremely poor vehicles for propaganda, because the GM and players control everything that happens. You're using your own imagination, which isn't constrained by what is written.
I played a Werewolf the Apocalypse campaign and a brief Mage the Ascension campaign. I hate the background of M:tA for having scientists as the evil oppressors keeping down free-thinking magicians, since I'm very pro-science in real life. But I could easily ignore those parts to play and poke fun at it, as you say.
The Technocratic Unions are not fighting for scientific progress.
If a scientist conducts research that the Union does not approve of they will shoot him in the head, destroy his corpse, and replace him with a clone. That clone will then sabotage his life's work.
Their standard approach to scientific research is suppression and control. Fighting for scientific progress is in-universe propaganda.
The Union are totalitarian technomages.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 01:42:48 PM
Yeah, I didn't like the propaganda. The consensus reality premise has tons of ramifications that never occurred to the authors. Among other things, it means that homeopathy, antivaxxer, and flat-earther beliefs would become true if they murdered all the non-believers. The current crop of books walk back on that by making the technocrats parrot American left-wing talking points, even though this makes no sense with a consensus reality premise.
I like the idea of players flavoring their magic after different magical styles like Hermeticism, Wicca, Taoism, mad science, reality hackers, or whatever. I would give that to all splats, not just mortal magicians. However, I would avoid explaining it in terms of consensus reality to avoid inadvertently promoting beliefs that are dangerous in real life.
The traditions aren't luddites either.
The common theme among them is self actualization. Heavy focus on learning, understanding, improving oneself. A large part of that is their need to understand their paradigm to a high degree. Don't throw away interesting stuff in favor of shallow aesthetics.
The second common theme among them is recognition and acceptance of different worldviews being able to interact and cooperate. That also requires a focus on how they believe the world functions. Throwing that away as well because you don't want to accidentally convince a player random shit (you won't, their mind will be made up about all of that way before they hit your table) is also sad.
Also your plan to murder people is a poor one. You wouldn't really be strengthening your paradigm, you'd just make reality more brittle until it kinda sorta might function, assuming you have enough of it left. Also it's impractical and the actual belief you'd convince people of is that you are pretty evil which - behold - would end up becoming the new actual reality.
-
Don't listen to the internet takes on the Traditions or the Union. Don't run them as 1-dimensional stereotypes. It's not fun. Science and technology can be used for both good and evil. The technocrats is an evil organisation with a few good people in it, the traditions is an good organization with a few evil people in it. Consensus reality has more depth to it than just 'belief defines reality'. It's what makes all of it fun. Without it you're just chucking boring sphere effects at random assortments of mooks. The setting having more depth than a simplistic 'science good, not science bad' is what has made the setting last for decades.
I don't give a fuck.
Then you're retarded. Do us a favor and eat some lead.
I was deep in the toxic WW fandom for years before I developed the antipathy I have now. I don't think highly of these games anymore, I'm not impressed with attempts at proselytizing, and I don't see any point in pretending otherwise to spare your feelings.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 26, 2022, 07:38:18 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 06:15:59 PM
Quote from: rpgSeeker on December 26, 2022, 04:59:25 PM
No, white wolf used to be progressive, but not every form of progressivism is woke. Woke progressivism only became popular in the later half of the 2000s. Initially it equated itself with old school progressivism, but in many ways it is counter to it.
It is a shame how many progressives were all to happy to betray their old beliefs or otherwise unable to recognize the sham of woke progressivism.
Quote from: jhkim on December 26, 2022, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2022, 02:03:56 AM
Werewolf the Apocalypse was the first RPG I ever GM'ed, and I did so at least once or twice a week, every week for years. It started as Werewolf, but branched it to a World Of Darkness game, but still very changers-based game. My friend ended up getting Vampire and Changeling.
We played it as a bunch of young teens, as male and working class, and it was mostly about cool monster fights. The programming slid off of us like water off a duck's back. In fact, if anything we had a good time poking fun at the proto-SJW parts.
I think RPGs are extremely poor vehicles for propaganda, because the GM and players control everything that happens. You're using your own imagination, which isn't constrained by what is written.
I played a Werewolf the Apocalypse campaign and a brief Mage the Ascension campaign. I hate the background of M:tA for having scientists as the evil oppressors keeping down free-thinking magicians, since I'm very pro-science in real life. But I could easily ignore those parts to play and poke fun at it, as you say.
The Technocratic Unions are not fighting for scientific progress.
If a scientist conducts research that the Union does not approve of they will shoot him in the head, destroy his corpse, and replace him with a clone. That clone will then sabotage his life's work.
Their standard approach to scientific research is suppression and control. Fighting for scientific progress is in-universe propaganda.
The Union are totalitarian technomages.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 01:42:48 PM
Yeah, I didn't like the propaganda. The consensus reality premise has tons of ramifications that never occurred to the authors. Among other things, it means that homeopathy, antivaxxer, and flat-earther beliefs would become true if they murdered all the non-believers. The current crop of books walk back on that by making the technocrats parrot American left-wing talking points, even though this makes no sense with a consensus reality premise.
I like the idea of players flavoring their magic after different magical styles like Hermeticism, Wicca, Taoism, mad science, reality hackers, or whatever. I would give that to all splats, not just mortal magicians. However, I would avoid explaining it in terms of consensus reality to avoid inadvertently promoting beliefs that are dangerous in real life.
The traditions aren't luddites either.
The common theme among them is self actualization. Heavy focus on learning, understanding, improving oneself. A large part of that is their need to understand their paradigm to a high degree. Don't throw away interesting stuff in favor of shallow aesthetics.
The second common theme among them is recognition and acceptance of different worldviews being able to interact and cooperate. That also requires a focus on how they believe the world functions. Throwing that away as well because you don't want to accidentally convince a player random shit (you won't, their mind will be made up about all of that way before they hit your table) is also sad.
Also your plan to murder people is a poor one. You wouldn't really be strengthening your paradigm, you'd just make reality more brittle until it kinda sorta might function, assuming you have enough of it left. Also it's impractical and the actual belief you'd convince people of is that you are pretty evil which - behold - would end up becoming the new actual reality.
-
Don't listen to the internet takes on the Traditions or the Union. Don't run them as 1-dimensional stereotypes. It's not fun. Science and technology can be used for both good and evil. The technocrats is an evil organisation with a few good people in it, the traditions is an good organization with a few evil people in it. Consensus reality has more depth to it than just 'belief defines reality'. It's what makes all of it fun. Without it you're just chucking boring sphere effects at random assortments of mooks. The setting having more depth than a simplistic 'science good, not science bad' is what has made the setting last for decades.
I don't give a fuck.
Then you're retarded. Do us a favor and eat some lead.
I was deep in the toxic WW fandom for years before I developed the antipathy I have now. I don't think highly of these games anymore, I'm not impressed with attempts at proselytizing, and I don't see any point in pretending otherwise to spare your feelings.
Please follow my advice and eat some lead.
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 26, 2022, 05:20:08 PMThis wasn't a natural or direct outgrowth of leftism or 90s liberalism. It was a PSYOP.
I consider that copium. 90% of most modern woke elements are logical progressions of philosophical underpinnings of the past.
The communist revolutionaries of Russia where very willing to debate and discuss before they further radicalized and started putting all their enemies to the wall or siberia.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 26, 2022, 08:33:21 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 26, 2022, 05:20:08 PMThis wasn't a natural or direct outgrowth of leftism or 90s liberalism. It was a PSYOP.
I consider that copium. 90% of most modern woke elements are logical progressions of philosophical underpinnings of the past.
The communist revolutionaries of Russia where very willing to debate and discuss before they further radicalized and started putting all their enemies to the wall or siberia.
I would have to give a shit about leftism or consider these political labels to have genuine value (as opposed to being nothing but purely tribal identifiers at this point) for it to be "copium". I don't. These labels are meaningless to me. I only care about the Truth on these matters, and the Truth is that you're engaging in hasty generalizations by selectively cherry-picking the bits that seem to superficially support your preconceptions while ignoring the greater context of everything else that's transpired leading up to our current circumstances, much the same way that BLM types selectively cherry-pick statistics on black people killed by cops and immediately jump to "racism", while ignoring statistics on black people having more police interactions and violent crime.
If people merely voicing opposition to actual oppression, like Jim Crow era policies (the actual philosophical underpinnings of the past), is a "logical" progression to giving kids puberty blockers now, then we're truly fucked as a species, cuz by that "logic" we wouldn't be able to fix anything in society, since any promotion of equal rights or opposition to (presumably) unjust laws would inevitably lead to mass hysteria and a complete communist takeover of society. So we might as well go back to slavery and let those in positions of power trample us and those around us unimpeded.
Power corrupts. It's a timeless phenomenon we see happen repeatedly. It's also a great theme for any roleplaying game involving superpowers and political conflict. Can you trust yourself to be a good counterculture punk and not fall prey to corruption? Or do you find it easier to indulge your base desires with all your new power?
Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
Yeah no, their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable. Most of their fanbase has always been insufferable. I started with mage the awakening and later mage the ascension as some of my first rpgs. Their old shit is edgy, new shit is cancer. I can thank mage 20th and phil brucato for almost single handedly killing my desire to ever play mage again.
M20 is the KS I am most saddened I joined.
The "fixed" language around traditions like the Brotherhood and the Sons of Ether led to my deluxe bound copy going to the shelf and never leaving.
And, yeah, 90s leftists were different if only as a veneer because they didn't have the power to do what the woke do. I won't say they didn't want to do it, but at worst they knew they couldn't and kept the mask on.
Not sure if that's better or worse.
Quote from: PulpHerb on December 27, 2022, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
Yeah no, their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable. Most of their fanbase has always been insufferable. I started with mage the awakening and later mage the ascension as some of my first rpgs. Their old shit is edgy, new shit is cancer. I can thank mage 20th and phil brucato for almost single handedly killing my desire to ever play mage again.
M20 is the KS I am most saddened I joined.
The "fixed" language around traditions like the Brotherhood and the Sons of Ether led to my deluxe bound copy going to the shelf and never leaving.
And, yeah, 90s leftists were different if only as a veneer because they didn't have the power to do what the woke do. I won't say they didn't want to do it, but at worst they knew they couldn't and kept the mask on.
Not sure if that's better or worse.
Yeah, didn't they rename it the Children of Ether? That's going to ruin their search engine optimization because that's the title of an anime.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2022, 12:00:48 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on December 27, 2022, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
Yeah no, their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable. Most of their fanbase has always been insufferable. I started with mage the awakening and later mage the ascension as some of my first rpgs. Their old shit is edgy, new shit is cancer. I can thank mage 20th and phil brucato for almost single handedly killing my desire to ever play mage again.
M20 is the KS I am most saddened I joined.
The "fixed" language around traditions like the Brotherhood and the Sons of Ether led to my deluxe bound copy going to the shelf and never leaving.
And, yeah, 90s leftists were different if only as a veneer because they didn't have the power to do what the woke do. I won't say they didn't want to do it, but at worst they knew they couldn't and kept the mask on.
Not sure if that's better or worse.
Yeah, didn't they rename it the Children of Ether? That's going to ruin their search engine optimization because that's the title of an anime.
I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume the Werewolf version didn't make Black Furies gender inclusive though? For some reason this shit only ever flows one way.
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 26, 2022, 09:45:02 PMIf people merely voicing opposition to actual oppression, like Jim Crow era policies.
I feel thats somewhat reaching and conflating that anybody that ever was against [Bad thing] was a good leftist.
Again the communists had very good reasons to oppose the monarchy which was incompitent, and horrifically oppressive.
Anyway thats getting too into politics.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 27, 2022, 12:08:27 PMI'm going to go out on a limb, and assume the Werewolf version didn't make Black Furies gender inclusive though? For some reason this shit only ever flows one way.
They missed the time window for the trans inclusivity shit. Nowadays the Black Furies would be cancelled for being TURFs.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 27, 2022, 12:19:51 PMThey missed the time window for the trans inclusivity shit.
I just meant, you know, not casting out or killing all males as 'inferiors.' Since a group being named "Sons of" is horrific, but discarding males as trash is righteous.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 27, 2022, 12:19:51 PMNowadays the Black Furies would be cancelled for being TURFs.
Nah, they're just pull a DC comics modern Amazons. An island specifically just for women, but the new books have Trans-women Amazons, because who cares, nothing matters.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 27, 2022, 12:29:38 PMI just meant, you know, not casting out or killing all males as 'inferiors.' Since a group being named "Sons of" is horrific, but discarding males as trash is righteous
I know, it was a gag on my end. Somebody teaches the males to all identify as females (all it takes baby) and bam, now you can't do shit, or get Werewolf cancelled.
And yes of course I understand this is one sided hate. But thats so self evident Its like pointing out water is wet.
Paradox did force them to give it up. Now the tribe accepts anyone. In general Paradox scrubbed the tribes of any ethnic signifiers or restrictions on membership. Some like the Amerind tribes were even renamed for the sake of sensitivity, except that one Irish tribe that shares its name with right wing Irish political party the Fenians. When asked why, Paradox reportedly said "it's just a word." Yeah, the name of right wing political parties. You'd think they'd be in a hurry to change the name, especially since the Irish werewolves historically supported said party.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2022, 01:10:48 PM
Paradox did force them to give it up.
Im not really happy for change brought on by the barrel of a gun, but whatever.
Anyway as for what I got out of mage: I am absolutely aware this was not intended. It was intended as a 'fuck da system, sheep keepin me down!' thing.
But to me, I found it as a thing about how we all share reality, and how we have to learn to deal with each other and opinions we dislike. As a person who really values free speech (in law and in spirit) I found it resonated with me.
Before the 100% modern technocracit splats that just have them parrot modern talking points, there was a release where they where given villanous but still like...realistic and sympathetic motivations for their beliefs beyond 'CAPITALIST GO BOOM BOOM!'
Like the transhumanistic cybernetic faction was given a POV character of a guy who was born with weak legs, so the faction allowed him to walk normally.
I know it can be taken as a 'fuck vaccinations!', but from my POV it was a 'Well you can, but that may not have the consequences you want it too'.
Edit: The only unsympathetic faction was the NWO which explicitely is the one the most least tolerant of opinions, and sees shaping not just what people do or how they do it, but what they think.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2022, 12:00:48 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on December 27, 2022, 11:31:12 AM
Quote from: Ocule on April 18, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
Yeah no, their new shit is completely woke to the point of being unplayable. Most of their fanbase has always been insufferable. I started with mage the awakening and later mage the ascension as some of my first rpgs. Their old shit is edgy, new shit is cancer. I can thank mage 20th and phil brucato for almost single handedly killing my desire to ever play mage again.
M20 is the KS I am most saddened I joined.
The "fixed" language around traditions like the Brotherhood and the Sons of Ether led to my deluxe bound copy going to the shelf and never leaving.
And, yeah, 90s leftists were different if only as a veneer because they didn't have the power to do what the woke do. I won't say they didn't want to do it, but at worst they knew they couldn't and kept the mask on.
Not sure if that's better or worse.
Yeah, didn't they rename it the Children of Ether? That's going to ruin their search engine optimization because that's the title of an anime.
No. I have the M20 right next to me. I looked it up just a minute ago to answer your question.
All the traditions with "problematic" names are STILL named that way. Akashics are still named the Akashic
Brotherhood but are also sometimes called the Akashyana or just The Brotherhood
Sons of Ether are still called the Sons of Ether. Granted, sometimes they are called just Etherites, but thats not more feminist than just shortening a clumsily long name just like how Akashic brotherhood are just referred to Akashics.
Sure, sometimes the author writes Society of Ether but that thing has always been treated as more of a joke about how even traditional Traditionist want to look progressive, already back in the 90´s. If I were to rummage through the box I keep my 1st edition Mage books in, I could find a "angry letter to the editorial" written by one
Son Daughter of Ether, Alexis Hastings, lamenting that the Tradition is nothing about "A boys club Stuck in the Victorian times who still mourns letting women vote" in the 1st ed Son of Ether tradition book.
P.S I was wrong. It wasnt Alexis Hasting (although she Is also considered somewhat eccentric) but a Scientist called Dame Atomika.
Here, I'll post it in its entirety because it's just hilarious, and keep in mind the 1st ed SoE trad book was written in 1993.
"Dear chauvinist pigs. (By Dame Atomika)
Yes, our tradition is as sexist as a hillbilly redneck on a saturday night. Don't try to deny it, you pompous windbags. You know who you are. Well, I'm damned tired of it! Three times I've been denied the proper recognition for my Hate Ray just because I'm a woman. No More. I'm fighting back! We will see who is the superior sex.
Oh, and don't bother call me a "son" of ether anymore. I'm a Electrodyne Diva now."
Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 27, 2022, 02:03:08 PM"A boys club Stuck in the Victorian times who still mourns letting women vote" in the 1st ed Son of Ether tradition book.
Man, I never realized what I was missing out on by not being a Son Of Ether! They've got their shit together.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 27, 2022, 02:14:55 PM
Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 27, 2022, 02:03:08 PM"A boys club Stuck in the Victorian times who still mourns letting women vote" in the 1st ed Son of Ether tradition book.
Man, I never realized what I was missing out on by not being a Son Of Ether! They've got their shit together.
I still base characters in computer games like Cyberpunk 2077 and Fallout 4 on my Son of Ether I played in the 90s
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 27, 2022, 01:39:01 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2022, 01:10:48 PM
Paradox did force them to give it up.
Im not really happy for change brought on by the barrel of a gun, but whatever.
Anyway as for what I got out of mage: I am absolutely aware this was not intended. It was intended as a 'fuck da system, sheep keepin me down!' thing.
But to me, I found it as a thing about how we all share reality, and how we have to learn to deal with each other and opinions we dislike. As a person who really values free speech (in law and in spirit) I found it resonated with me.
Before the 100% modern technocracit splats that just have them parrot modern talking points, there was a release where they where given villanous but still like...realistic and sympathetic motivations for their beliefs beyond 'CAPITALIST GO BOOM BOOM!'
Like the transhumanistic cybernetic faction was given a POV character of a guy who was born with weak legs, so the faction allowed him to walk normally.
I know it can be taken as a 'fuck vaccinations!', but from my POV it was a 'Well you can, but that may not have the consequences you want it too'.
Edit: The only unsympathetic faction was the NWO which explicitely is the one the most least tolerant of opinions, and sees shaping not just what people do or how they do it, but what they think.
Free speech is a timeless theme because there's always those trying to take it away. The games were firmly rooted in a 90s counterculture zeitgeist. Now that things have changed, they lack relevance and can't resonance with newer younger audiences. Paradox has been trying to update them, but it doesn't work. I've talked to some zoomer fans and they don't care about the politics at all; they even told me the anarchist movement is a lie (wtf?). They just like making OCs that fit into high school clique stereotypes and are all "queer" because nowadays everyone has to be.
The problem is that there really aren't any real counterculture movements anymore to inspire us. Just mouth pieces for politicians. There is tons of inequality, but none of the movements are actually interested in addressing that.
If I was writing an urban fantasy rpg, then I'd design it to be fun. Not to push propaganda or cater to snowflakes.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2022, 01:42:48 PM
Yeah, I didn't like the propaganda. The consensus reality premise has tons of ramifications that never occurred to the authors. Among other things, it means that homeopathy, antivaxxer, and flat-earther beliefs would become true if they murdered all the non-believers. The current crop of books walk back on that by making the technocrats parrot American left-wing talking points, even though this makes no sense with a consensus reality premise.
I like the idea of players flavoring their magic after different magical styles like Hermeticism, Wicca, Taoism, mad science, reality hackers, or whatever. I would give that to all splats, not just mortal magicians. However, I would avoid explaining it in terms of consensus reality to avoid inadvertently promoting beliefs that are dangerous in real life.
One of the things I did like in M20 is it admitted that the consensus as described in the original could not be truly uniform across Earth, at least not yet. Of course, they did it for "sensitivity" reasons (at least how I read it).
The mistake I think a lot of people make about the Technocracy, and something it took me over a decade to wrap my head around, is they aren't doing experiments the way we think of science in the real world. They are continually casting a series of rotes and showing them to sleepers to tip belief in that direction. Those rotes are built systematically to create the consensus reality. But anywhere their rote casting hasn't convinced sleepers, it doesn't become the consensus and thus preclude, via paradox, other forms of magic.
That is how the Ether can go from scientific certainty to hogwash in a few decades in a post modern magic system.
The Traditions lost to the Technocracy not due to worse ideas, but worse organization. I can see how that appealed to 90s leftists in a way it wouldn't to the corpo-left today (who would be Technorcrats.).
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2022, 03:11:20 PM
The games were firmly rooted in a 90s counterculture zeitgeist. Now that things have changed, they lack relevance and can't resonance with newer younger audiences.
This is really how M20 failed me, but M:tAw 2nd edition didn't.
M20 tried to update not just from 90s tech (which was needed) but from 90s mindset, like worrying about, in the text, the lack of inclusiveness in name. M30 will probably work on gender crap.
Had they focused on retaining that 90s zeitgeist they would have appealed to the old player base better. Yes, "kids today" might not get it, but it seems a significant fraction of the 13-20 crowd is developing into a throwback "GenX" in attitudes as a reaction against Woke and would have gotten enough to glom on and take the systems in a direction friendly to them.
Instead, they tried to appeal to the 20-35 millennial crowd, and the hardest left of that (as opposed to the "default" leftism of college educated 90s).
Updating World of Darkness for 2022 would be difficult. It'd be impossible for woke to do it properly, the core of the game is opposed to the ideology in to many ways.
It's similar to Star Trek. Star Trek was also highly progressive, but not woke. Star Trek also put a huge amount of thematic weight on people with very different worldviews still being able to communicate, respect each other, cooperate. And the new adaptions cannot grasp this. Because woke progressivism utterly rejects the notion of any worldview outside of its own.
The consensus reality explanation is full of holes, so I'm not surprised nobody understands it and the explanations change across editions.
The concept of paradox is nonsensical. If it's the consensus fighting back, then why is backlash so surreal and magical? Awakening fixes this by making it work by drawing things from the abyss, but still breaks itself by keeping the same name and trying to contrive an etymology.
Another critique comes from mythcreants: https://mythcreants.com/blog/five-common-masquerade-explanations-and-why-theyre-bad/
QuoteLike most explanations, this one comes in a variety of flavors. Usually, it's part of some belief mechanic in which magical things are hidden because people don't believe in them. An example of this is the consensual reality in the RPG Mage: The Ascension. In Mage, casting magic out in the open does damage to the caster because onlookers don't believe it's real. In other stories, the lack of belief has pushed magical things out of the world, or most people can't see magic just because they're too stubborn to believe in it. Everyone's into science these days, so there's no room for fairies and unicorns!
Yeah, no. First of all, are you really going to tell your fantasy audience that people won't believe in magic? Maybe you could've made that case back when people looked down on speculative fiction, but now that Amazon is spending a billion dollars on a fantasy TV show, that's not going to fly. Plenty of people are ready to believe in magic with even the slightest rumor, much less solid evidence.
Assuming you can overcome that obstacle, there's another issue. These worlds come with the assumption that people believed in magic long ago; that's why we've heard of it at all. But then why did people stop believing in it? It would be like everyone deciding they don't believe in electricity or raccoons anymore.
Speaking of which, why is only magic affected by belief? How did Nicolaus Copernicus prove that the earth rotates around the sun when everyone believed otherwise? If belief changed reality or even just our sensory perception of it, we would still think the Earth is the center of our solar system. If we all decided raccoons were a myth, would they disappear?
At best, this explanation doesn't stand up to scrutiny. At worst, it feels like an insult to fans who would like to see some magic, please.
Not to mention that the approach to "science" is completely counterintuitive. In the consensus reality, the scientific method doesn't and cannot work. "Science" is just another way of knowing, no more or less valid than another, but all methods of knowing are actually fake arbitrary symbol systems. This is postmodern hogwash.
I'm just not even going to bother to explain why magic exists but doesn't change the modern world in any IP I write. It's not actually relevant to anything and it will always be full of holes.
The metaphysics of Awakening were much stronger. That's what happens when you have a real theory underlying your worldview instead of post modernism, and a poor version of it at that. They cited Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and it shows.
As a general rule, Awakening is my preferred version, but that is true for most games that had an OWoD and NWoD/CoD version. Ascension, is, however, one of the cases where I am equally willing to play both versions. For all it's "don't look too close", M:tAs, especially in the wildest of the 2nd edition days, was just fun. You can do an adventure of airship voyages to the outer planets to celebrate the Sons of Ether joining the Traditions and it just works.
I'd also be open to C:tD or C:tL, but prefer Lost. Both Hunters are also on the table for me with maybe a slight preference for Reckoning.
The old WoD I'd prefer to its rough CoD analog (and very rough here) is Wraith.
I think 2nd edition Asc suffers from the same problem as the isekai genre. Any connection to Earth could be severed and lose nothing of value. You could just focus on the otherworld adventures that the fandom seems to only care about.
But whenever companies tried to make games just about that part, they don't get very successful. It's probably just first mover advantage, tho.
Quote from: rpgSeeker on December 27, 2022, 04:32:53 PM
Updating World of Darkness for 2022 would be difficult. It'd be impossible for woke to do it properly, the core of the game is opposed to the ideology in to many ways.
It's similar to Star Trek. Star Trek was also highly progressive, but not woke. Star Trek also put a huge amount of thematic weight on people with very different worldviews still being able to communicate, respect each other, cooperate. And the new adaptions cannot grasp this. Because woke progressivism utterly rejects the notion of any worldview outside of its own.
You'd have better luck rebooting it from scratch and not involving partisan politics at all. But that's not gonna happen anytime soon, so you're better off making your own game. And as the creator you'd be able to write articles explaining the right way to interpret the factions.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2022, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: rpgSeeker on December 27, 2022, 04:32:53 PM
Updating World of Darkness for 2022 would be difficult. It'd be impossible for woke to do it properly, the core of the game is opposed to the ideology in to many ways.
It's similar to Star Trek. Star Trek was also highly progressive, but not woke. Star Trek also put a huge amount of thematic weight on people with very different worldviews still being able to communicate, respect each other, cooperate. And the new adaptions cannot grasp this. Because woke progressivism utterly rejects the notion of any worldview outside of its own.
You'd have better luck rebooting it from scratch and not involving partisan politics at all. But that's not gonna happen anytime soon, so you're better off making your own game. And as the creator you'd be able to write articles explaining the right way to interpret the factions.
The only really interesting part of the oWoD to me was the idea of Biblical Cain/first murderer as the first vampire just because it lended more epic weight for me personally than say, a 15th century nobleman who sold his soul to the Devil (it's not even Medieval old) or "spawn of [insert pagan god/demon here]."
The fact that the immortality (to have all the time in the world to repent) was the only part from God, everything else was a backlash from his attempt to harness infernal blood magic made it feel rather Christian morality play-like in nature.
Particularly joined with the "Last Daughter of Eve" element as the one who will end the line of vampires... it just had a sort of dualism (impossibly old murderous man vs. young innocent/heroic girl) that also appeals to me.
That said... it's very much being the ones who fight the monsters vs. playing the monster that I enjoy in relation to the WoD... I don't roll vampires, I do Dhampirs or priests with True Faith or the iron willed "last honest cop" or the mystic martial artist.
Which, if I were to do my own setting is probably what I'd focus on... the monsters are the predatory establishment and its minions (they aren't just trafficking for sex, they're also trafficking for blood... they gain power by ruining the lives of others). You are the line that protects innocents from the monsters (probably with "redemption-seeking monster" as one of the templates). I even have a title/rhyme for it....
With stake and sword, cross and flame
We will roam this blighted land...
For now we are the hunters;
The Hunters of the Damned.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 27, 2022, 07:46:50 PMParticularly joined with the "Last Daughter of Eve" element as the one who will end the line of vampires... it just had a sort of dualism (impossibly old murderous man vs. young innocent/heroic girl) that also appeals to me.
Well considering it's the same tired Feminist trope (young woman takes down powerful man) used in practically every movie, TV show, book and video game of the past 6+ years, you must feel VERY appealed to.
Not to mention how it's the hackneyed "men destroy, women heal" propaganda.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 27, 2022, 07:46:50 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2022, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: rpgSeeker on December 27, 2022, 04:32:53 PM
Updating World of Darkness for 2022 would be difficult. It'd be impossible for woke to do it properly, the core of the game is opposed to the ideology in to many ways.
It's similar to Star Trek. Star Trek was also highly progressive, but not woke. Star Trek also put a huge amount of thematic weight on people with very different worldviews still being able to communicate, respect each other, cooperate. And the new adaptions cannot grasp this. Because woke progressivism utterly rejects the notion of any worldview outside of its own.
You'd have better luck rebooting it from scratch and not involving partisan politics at all. But that's not gonna happen anytime soon, so you're better off making your own game. And as the creator you'd be able to write articles explaining the right way to interpret the factions.
The only really interesting part of the oWoD to me was the idea of Biblical Cain/first murderer as the first vampire just because it lended more epic weight for me personally than say, a 15th century nobleman who sold his soul to the Devil (it's not even Medieval old) or "spawn of [insert pagan god/demon here]."
The fact that the immortality (to have all the time in the world to repent) was the only part from God, everything else was a backlash from his attempt to harness infernal blood magic made it feel rather Christian morality play-like in nature.
Particularly joined with the "Last Daughter of Eve" element as the one who will end the line of vampires... it just had a sort of dualism (impossibly old murderous man vs. young innocent/heroic girl) that also appeals to me.
That said... it's very much being the ones who fight the monsters vs. playing the monster that I enjoy in relation to the WoD... I don't roll vampires, I do Dhampirs or priests with True Faith or the iron willed "last honest cop" or the mystic martial artist.
Which, if I were to do my own setting is probably what I'd focus on... the monsters are the predatory establishment and its minions (they aren't just trafficking for sex, they're also trafficking for blood... they gain power by ruining the lives of others). You are the line that protects innocents from the monsters (probably with "redemption-seeking monster" as one of the templates). I even have a title/rhyme for it....
With stake and sword, cross and flame
We will roam this blighted land...
For now we are the hunters;
The Hunters of the Damned.
Go for it.
I've brainstormed similar ideas. My hunter pitch involves character options like dhampirs, antichrists raised by the Vatican to use their powers for good, reluctant monsters, and so on. Some of them also have magic too because I decided to make freeform magic available to everyone.
I also thought of using Cain for the mythology of some vampires, but in the default kitchen sink setting he's not the progenitor of all vampires but just one bloodline. I'm not gonna spoil it further.
As for my wizards... well, I made magic available to everyone so there's no special emphasis on the power of tru majiq to change the world nor any cosmic battle between fake scientists and counterculture guys. I've opted to treat magic as a dangerous and corrupting force, the epitome of power. A punk wizard might start out with the best intentions for social justice, but most of them ultimately either become callous corporate suits or run off to live in an isekai with a harem. In fact, most regardless of their beliefs eventually become bored with Earth and decide to become magical wireheads. So any wars for control of Earth never get off the ground due to the psychological flaws of human nature. Any wizard who isn't completely consumed by their own power must be extremely strong willed and dedicated.
Or something. I haven't committed yet
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 28, 2022, 01:53:37 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 27, 2022, 07:46:50 PMParticularly joined with the "Last Daughter of Eve" element as the one who will end the line of vampires... it just had a sort of dualism (impossibly old murderous man vs. young innocent/heroic girl) that also appeals to me.
Well considering it's the same tired Feminist trope (young woman takes down powerful man) used in practically every movie, TV show, book and video game of the past 6+ years, you must feel VERY appealed to.
Not to mention how it's the hackneyed "men destroy, women heal" propaganda.
Actually, I don't, because those movies do it wrong. Opposing woke concepts doesn't require you to be a member of the He-Man Women Haters Club. You're allowed to like things like Buffy or Supergirl (the comic, the show after it left CBS turned to trash).
Also, "Men Hunt/Kill, Women Gather/Nurture" is hardly propaganda, it's human nature and the way functional societies have worked for ages upon ages. Women as symbolic bringers of new life is a concept older than writing. The corruption/propaganda is "Men Hunt/Kill, Women Hunt/Kill even better."*
Frankly, the way I incorporated it in my own campaign was, I feel, fairly anti-woke. The Last Daughter was born with blood toxic to vampires. By having children that trait would spread, eventually to the entire human population, and the vampires would starve to death. Thus, the vampires hunted for her to ensure this would never come to pass and the protagonists/PCs mission was to protect them from the vampires hunting them.
* Buffy and Supergirl are clearly supernatural and alien respectively. When Buffy is stripped of her powers she struggles against a single average vampire and defeats it only through guile and cleverness (tricking it into drinking holy water). Supergirl has only been depicted as stronger than Superman as a mistake... that she hadn't been holding back when she first arrived while Superman always did due to "world of cardboard."
Saying a woman with supernatural powers or is an alien can be stronger than a man isn't woke in my opinion. Indeed, you're actually pointing out that women require magical/alien powers to compete with men physically.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 28, 2022, 09:30:08 AM
Actually, I don't, because those movies do it wrong. Opposing woke concepts doesn't require you to be a member of the He-Man Women Haters Club. You're allowed to like things like Buffy or Supergirl (the comic, the show after it left CBS turned to trash).
Actually this is you fighting shadows, because I mentioned media of the last 6+ years, and you bring up characters that are 30-80 years old.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 28, 2022, 09:30:08 AM
Also, "Men Hunt/Kill, Women Gather/Nurture" is hardly propaganda, it's human nature and the way functional societies have worked for ages upon ages. Women as symbolic bringers of new life is a concept older than writing. The corruption/propaganda is "Men Hunt/Kill, Women Hunt/Kill even better."*
I'd say the problem is looking at the Ying/Yang in simplistic terms. Males are destructive, but destroying the old can allow innovation and new growth. Females are nurturing, but their need for peace can lead to stagnation and decay. We have trouble when the two become unbalanced.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 28, 2022, 09:30:08 AM
Frankly, the way I incorporated it in my own campaign was, I feel, fairly anti-woke. The Last Daughter was born with blood toxic to vampires. By having children that trait would spread, eventually to the entire human population, and the vampires would starve to death. Thus, the vampires hunted for her to ensure this would never come to pass and the protagonists/PCs mission was to protect them from the vampires hunting them.
That's both un-woke, and an EXCELLENT reason that the chosen one needs to be female. Again though, when you say the chosen hero is a young girl that defeats Caine, and she's a character from the current generation, I'd be right thinking she kicks his ass more times than I'd be wrong.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 28, 2022, 09:30:08 AM
* Buffy and Supergirl are clearly supernatural and alien respectively. When Buffy is stripped of her powers she struggles against a single average vampire and defeats it only through guile and cleverness (tricking it into drinking holy water). Supergirl has only been depicted as stronger than Superman as a mistake... that she hadn't been holding back when she first arrived while Superman always did due to "world of cardboard."
Saying a woman with supernatural powers or is an alien can be stronger than a man isn't woke in my opinion. Indeed, you're actually pointing out that women require magical/alien powers to compete with men physically.
No-one had a problem with such characters until they were ruined. A female super soldier/alien/demi god kicking male ass isn't woke. Her kicking the ass of all male super soldiers/aliens/demi gods IS woke.
In all things, all I want is verisimilitude.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 28, 2022, 10:00:58 AM
Actually this is you fighting shadows, because I mentioned media of the last 6+ years, and you bring up characters that are 30-80 years old.
You stated that I must feel "VERY appealed to" by modern media. I was explaining why I wasn't feeling very appealed to... because woke "strong women" are doing it wrong and Buffy and Supergirl are two examples of how I think "strong women" are done right.
Most notably, both were still expressly feminine with feminine interests including finding a man to make a life/family with and their powers/responsibilities were a complication to what they'd prefer to be doing... their putting their responsibilities ahead of their desires is part of what makes them heroic. They also make mistakes and suffer setbacks based on their own choices and are allowed to learn and grow from them (and not always by making it right either).
By contrast, the modern strong woman (as exemplified by the likes of Rey and Captain Marvel) are unfeminine with unfeminine interests who face no conflicts between their desires and responsibilities (they desire to kick much ass) and do not desire anyone else in their lives and their only mistakes are listening to others (contrast Buffy, whose life goes off the rails when her mentor/father-figure departs).
I was thinking about including feminazi covens in my work, since they're no longer considered kosher by the legacy publishers.
Didn't read all the replies, but yes, WW was always very politically correct. When I first entered rpg forum land in 2007-2008 I started posting on the WW forum and on Shadownessence (I dunno if that still excist) and I found it very stiffling. They weren't woke yet, because it didn't excist, but it was constantly walking on eggshells over there. You were not allowed to have a different opinion, they would close your topic, moderators would use BIG RED LETTERS with the capslock on, you would get dogpiled, suspensions and bans were used. I honestly thought they were very conservative, because that's the corner you expect censorship to come from. But no they were very progressive. So naturally they jumped unto the woke gravy train, they were always like that.
Greetings!
Back in the day, I bought several of the Vampire and Werewolf books--because "Vampires! Werewolves!" of course. Honestly, reading through the books turned me off from using their system or playing their games, because I immediately recognized them as being Progressive, Marxist shills. They have always been Marxist scum.
I didn't buy anymore of their books, either. The books overlow with Marxist, deconstructionist, nihilistic, and anti-Christian propaganda at every step.
Let them burn.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 27, 2022, 07:46:50 PM
With stake and sword, cross and flame
We will roam this blighted land...
For now we are the hunters;
The Hunters of the Damned.
👍👍👍
Came here to say more or less this.
White Wolf weren't woke, they were proto-woke.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2022, 09:22:29 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 25, 2022, 01:19:06 PM
Id say while not woke, they are the kinda 'pre-woke' that absolutely led to this point.
Almost all edgy 90s rebels have been the ones to most utterly embrace modern wokeness. Some get cancelled for being too 'edgy' for our time, but even then none of them ended up recanting or becoming introspective.
So have they always been woke? No, but thats because the term didn't exist back then. But wher ethey setting the stage for woke? Absolutely.
This is the point I make to old school Liberals that are living on Copium, about society going back to how it was in the 90's. Everything pushed in the 90's directly led to where we are now. The slippery slopes we laughed at were actually slippery.
It turns out the people writing WoD weren't actually fighting the system, they were just fighting a system that wasn't theirs. Once the system aligned with them, they embraced it like a lover.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2022, 09:22:29 AM
It turns out the people writing WoD weren't actually fighting the system, they were just fighting a system that wasn't theirs. Once the system aligned with them, they embraced it like a lover.
Isn't that the case for everyone though? Unless you're just "against the status quo" in general, which always seemed like an odd stance to me.
Quote from: Trond on December 30, 2022, 05:06:06 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2022, 09:22:29 AM
It turns out the people writing WoD weren't actually fighting the system, they were just fighting a system that wasn't theirs. Once the system aligned with them, they embraced it like a lover.
Isn't that the case for everyone though? Unless you're just "against the status quo" in general, which always seemed like an odd stance to me.
Well only morons and lunatics are "against the system" in the sense of wanting to abolish all government and hierarchies. That's just impossible with the population of humans we have.
But the 90's political-Left "against the system" was sold as anti-censorship, anti-corporate, general anti-government-overreach. None of these things need be inherent to any system, and both sides, on paper at least, should be agreed on the concept, if disagreeing on degree and focus.
The lefty activists of the 90's have revealed themselves to be MASSIVE hypocrites, because they embraced every single thing they supposedly 'fought' against, the absolute second their tribe took over the reins. Rage Against The Machine pushing mandated government vaccine and lockdown programs are an excellent example.
Quote from: Trond on December 30, 2022, 05:06:06 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2022, 09:22:29 AM
It turns out the people writing WoD weren't actually fighting the system, they were just fighting a system that wasn't theirs. Once the system aligned with them, they embraced it like a lover.
Isn't that the case for everyone though? Unless you're just "against the status quo" in general, which always seemed like an odd stance to me.
It was also more complicated than that because none of this stuff happened in a vacuum. 90s liberals were also reacting to the culture of the 80s and earlier where the Christian conservative Moral Majority tried to impose their values on everyone else, trying to ban everything, branding it as Satanic or whatnot. As well as the rampant homophobia that was going on, with gay teens committing suicide or ending up in the streets cuz their Christian parents wouldn't accept them, and a bunch of other stuff that was going on culturally at the time.
And like I tried to establish in my earlier post, many of the stuff that we think of as "woke" wasn't even a thing at the time. Nobody outside of the deepest bowels of Academia had ever heard of the so-called "gender-binary", or the idea of pronouns, puberty blockers, or dead naming or whatever. Identity-based activism wasn't homogenized yet into a single movement that consumed all of progressivism to the exclusion of class-based concerns and pinned all identities against each other. All of this stuff came with Intersectional Feminism (another obscure topic unknown outside of academia) and its spread through social media, aided by algorithms, censorship of dissenting voices and the spread of false narratives by the mainstream media.
But many of the dissenting voices fighting this early on where themselves Liberal, with Milo Yiannopoulos being one of the few exceptions, who lashed himself onto this during GamerGate, when all of this stuff started to blow up. But most of the prevalent voices early were at least tangentially liberal, like Sargon/Carl Benyamin (who was essentially a Social Liberal, who believed in stuff like universal healthcare, despite calling himself a "Classical" Liberal, and not turning more conservative till much later on) or The Amazing Atheist/TJ Kirk (who turned into a douche later on).
They did a poll early on during GamerGate and most of the people involved were left-leaning. It wasn't till later that the movement got associated with the right—partly due to the media framing it as such, and partly due to people like Milo using it to promote conservatism and many coalescing around that vision, or flipping over to the "right" due to binary thinking ("if leftists are wrong, then I must be a right-winger, cuz it can't be that both sides are wrong or that these "wings" are irrelevant pointless labels. The truth has to be in one of two sides and if one doesn't have it, then the other must be the truth.").
But if wokeism today truly did follow a straight line from the vacuum of 90s liberalism and 90s liberals were directly responsible for it, then how come it was also 90s liberals who were the ones primarily exposing it back when nobody had ever heard of SJWs and the term "woke" didn't even exist yet?
Quote from: SHARK on December 29, 2022, 05:56:19 PM
Greetings!
Back in the day, I bought several of the Vampire and Werewolf books--because "Vampires! Werewolves!" of course. Honestly, reading through the books turned me off from using their system or playing their games, because I immediately recognized them as being Progressive, Marxist shills. They have always been Marxist scum.
I didn't buy anymore of their books, either. The books overlow with Marxist, deconstructionist, nihilistic, and anti-Christian propaganda at every step.
Let them burn.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
WOW! Even I think that's a little harsh.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig on December 29, 2022, 10:04:02 PM
Came here to say more or less this.
White Wolf weren't woke, they were proto-woke.
Yes!
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 30, 2022, 06:18:42 AM
Well only morons and lunatics are "against the system" in the sense of wanting to abolish all government and hierarchies. That's just impossible with the population of humans we have.
But the 90's political-Left "against the system" was sold as anti-censorship, anti-corporate, general anti-government-overreach. None of these things need be inherent to any system, and both sides, on paper at least, should be agreed on the concept, if disagreeing on degree and focus.
The lefty activists of the 90's have revealed themselves to be MASSIVE hypocrites, because they embraced every single thing they supposedly 'fought' against, the absolute second their tribe took over the reins. Rage Against The Machine pushing mandated government vaccine and lockdown programs are an excellent example.
Aren't you not reading a bit too much into this? I mean, I think WW needed a big bad in their games so they had an overarching conspiracy in most of them like Pentex (big business) or the Technocracy (big government). They could use those in their metaplot books.
QuoteThat's both un-woke, and an EXCELLENT reason that the chosen one needs to be female.
Needs? Why? Like... only way for Anti-Vampire toxin to be linked to her sex is her Mitochondrial DNA.
Passed only in female lineages.
But if that's so - then chances that Last Daughter female bloodline gonna spread through all mankind is very very slim.
In fact even if it's dominant autosomal gene then chances of spreading through all mankind is virtually non-existent - unless some massive vampire plague would cause it to be vital for survival.
Considering vampire's presence did not stop mankind to grow from less than 1 bln to 8 bln in last 200 years... I hardly see such chance, from genetic perspective.
If this blood could be harness to create dunno artificial anti-vampire virus... then maybe. By just making babies... nah.
Were they successful back in the day because they were woke (proto-woke) or because TSR fumbled and Vampires! Werewolves was there to fill in the void a bit?
Quote from: Ruprecht on January 16, 2023, 10:08:39 AM
Were they successful back in the day because they were woke (proto-woke) or because TSR fumbled and Vampires! Werewolves was there to fill in the void a bit?
I think it was more that they found an untapped market and zeitgeist that allowed them to flourish while TSR's poor decisions led them to flounder. But that market and that zeitgeist doesn't exist anymore, so now they're floundering and trying to survive by whoring out the IP for bad video games.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 16, 2023, 10:47:36 AM
Quote from: Ruprecht on January 16, 2023, 10:08:39 AM
Were they successful back in the day because they were woke (proto-woke) or because TSR fumbled and Vampires! Werewolves was there to fill in the void a bit?
I think it was more that they found an untapped market and zeitgeist that allowed them to flourish while TSR's poor decisions led them to flounder. But that market and that zeitgeist doesn't exist anymore, so now they're floundering and trying to survive by whoring out the IP for bad video games.
Well, and a big part of the problem with losing the Zeitgeist is that all the 90's cool rebels their PC cliques (clans, tribes, traditions) emulated all grew up and became "the Man" that genuine 21st century rebels oppose.
They literally can't grok the idea that they are now the establishment and so all their efforts to make their archetypes into underdogs feels disingenuous.
"Oh, woe are the poor elites! Will no one weep for them as them suffers microagressions at the hands of a dying middle-class who lost their jobs and homes and families due to the elites offshoring all their prospects to third-world slave labor camps so they could maximize their profits?"
All the WoD lore basically amounts to that... snowflakes fighting the horror of micro-aggressions in a world completely disconnected from the modern one.
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 30, 2022, 07:39:13 AM
It was also more complicated than that because none of this stuff happened in a vacuum. 90s liberals were also reacting to the culture of the 80s and earlier where the Christian conservative Moral Majority tried to impose their values on everyone else, trying to ban everything, branding it as Satanic or whatnot. As well as the rampant homophobia that was going on, with gay teens committing suicide or ending up in the streets cuz their Christian parents wouldn't accept them, and a bunch of other stuff that was going on culturally at the time.
I don't want to derail the thread with politics too much but this type of comment is simply false and slanderous. The sociological data is in, and gay teens aren't any less suicidal today. In fact, rate of suicidality of these groups has actually increased over time. The issue is, and always was, that these people suffer from a variety of mental illnesses. Encouraging it has only made the problem worse.
The people pushing this false meme, (including WhiteWolf at the time) were never interested in truth or actually helping people who need help, they were only interested in bludgeoning "wrongthinkers" and blaming them for things that aren't in their control to begin with.
Quote from: Zelen on January 16, 2023, 12:20:21 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 30, 2022, 07:39:13 AM
It was also more complicated than that because none of this stuff happened in a vacuum. 90s liberals were also reacting to the culture of the 80s and earlier where the Christian conservative Moral Majority tried to impose their values on everyone else, trying to ban everything, branding it as Satanic or whatnot. As well as the rampant homophobia that was going on, with gay teens committing suicide or ending up in the streets cuz their Christian parents wouldn't accept them, and a bunch of other stuff that was going on culturally at the time.
I don't want to derail the thread with politics too much but this type of comment is simply false and slanderous. The sociological data is in, and gay teens aren't any less suicidal today. In fact, rate of suicidality of these groups has actually increased over time. The issue is, and always was, that these people suffer from a variety of mental illnesses. Encouraging it has only made the problem worse.
The people pushing this false meme, (including WhiteWolf at the time) were never interested in truth or actually helping people who need help, they were only interested in bludgeoning "wrongthinkers" and blaming them for things that aren't in their control to begin with.
It's been my experience that a lot of nerds are very insecure and frankly have issues with arrested development. Wokeness allowed them to indulge their pettier sides with no consequences. But if I'm being honest, pre wokeness the nerds always wanted to bully people. Assert that they are mentally superior to all others. It's just nowadays the nerds can be condescending and bully people and actually get praise for it publicly. Things like being anti corporate, anti establishment, anarchist, hippy and whatever else was just a way to assert their superiority due to aforementioned insecurity. And they are eternal victims so they're never wrong and it's everyone else's fault.
M20A is so woke that I'm a little disturbed they managed to publish it without cognitive dissonance sneaking in and triggering a "Are we the baddies?" moment. Don't they flat-out describe the Technocracy as "The White Menace" for some insane reason? It's so ludicrous that I have trouble believing I didn't hallucinate that part.
Quote from: phydeaux on January 16, 2023, 04:06:38 PM
M20A is so woke that I'm a little disturbed they managed to publish it without cognitive dissonance sneaking in and triggering a "Are we the baddies?" moment. Don't they flat-out describe the Technocracy as "The White Menace" for some insane reason? It's so ludicrous that I have trouble believing I didn't hallucinate that part.
They're not even consistent. Another book said it was pro-vaccine and anti-fake news. Also, they're apparently not even the bad guys anymore?
Fuck it. I can't be bothered to keep up with this stupid shit.
Quote from: Zelen on January 16, 2023, 12:20:21 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 30, 2022, 07:39:13 AM
It was also more complicated than that because none of this stuff happened in a vacuum. 90s liberals were also reacting to the culture of the 80s and earlier where the Christian conservative Moral Majority tried to impose their values on everyone else, trying to ban everything, branding it as Satanic or whatnot. As well as the rampant homophobia that was going on, with gay teens committing suicide or ending up in the streets cuz their Christian parents wouldn't accept them, and a bunch of other stuff that was going on culturally at the time.
I don't want to derail the thread with politics too much but this type of comment is simply false and slanderous. The sociological data is in, and gay teens aren't any less suicidal today. In fact, rate of suicidality of these groups has actually increased over time. The issue is, and always was, that these people suffer from a variety of mental illnesses. Encouraging it has only made the problem worse.
The people pushing this false meme, (including WhiteWolf at the time) were never interested in truth or actually helping people who need help, they were only interested in bludgeoning "wrongthinkers" and blaming them for things that aren't in their control to begin with.
The fact that people still kill themselves today does not logically follow that therefore they did not face persecution in the past. A LOT of people from every demographic kill themselves today, not just gay people. Suicide is one of the leading causes of death in some civilized nations. Suicide is a lot more complicated issue than "they killed themselves because they were gay, and therefore mentally defective", like only gay people kill themselves.
We live in a spiritually and morally bankrupt society, devoid of purpose, where people in power get away with everything and things appear to be getting worse every day. Of course people are gonna kill themselves!
None of this proves that anything I said isn't true.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 16, 2023, 05:16:59 PM
They're not even consistent. Another book said it was pro-vaccine and anti-fake news. Also, they're apparently not even the bad guys anymore?
Fuck it. I can't be bothered to keep up with this stupid shit.
For mage? I wasn't aware of that one. That doesn't even make any sense. At that point it's breaking its own setting rules so blatantly that it's no longer a RPG. It's some creepy, pushy leftoid politics primer that you're supposed to act out. The concept of 'fake news' doesn't even have any meaning in a game that's about consensual reality, and fuck no. Most mages are not going to be pro
anything you inject into your body from a syringe. In proper MtA, that needle would probably be filled with stuff so vile that it would make the devil say, "Bro."
Quote from: King Tyranno on January 16, 2023, 02:08:02 PMIt's been my experience that a lot of nerds are very insecure and frankly have issues with arrested development. Wokeness allowed them to indulge their pettier sides with no consequences. But if I'm being honest, pre wokeness the nerds always wanted to bully people. Assert that they are mentally superior to all others. It's just nowadays the nerds can be condescending and bully people and actually get praise for it publicly. Things like being anti corporate, anti establishment, anarchist, hippy and whatever else was just a way to assert their superiority due to aforementioned insecurity. And they are eternal victims so they're never wrong and it's everyone else's fault.
This isn't untrue, but I'd argue it's more universal than any one subculture; we all tend to possess more insecurity than it is socially rewarding to admit to, we all have the drive to attain positions of ego-reinforcing visible superiority, we are all excessively sensitive to anyone who appears not to value the criteria by which
we judge superiority, we all fight the temptation to gratify personal grudges through the exercise (sometimes licit, sometimes abusive) of whatever superiority we acquire, and we all share the incentive to disclaim responsibility for our own abuses by excusing them merely as justified responses to prior worse abuse (because any abuse that happened to
us was always worse,
ipso facto).
All that changes between communities of differing times and places is the mode and scope of that process. Part of the difficulty with Wokism in its current form is that it is so wedded to the Marxist
who, whom? paradigm that it cannot process the idea of moral criteria independent of one's position on the privilege ladder -- indeed, it actively
refuses to admit to the possibility of such because it senses, not incorrectly, that any application of such a moral criterion could only hinder it in its objectives.
Quote from: phydeaux on January 16, 2023, 09:11:00 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 16, 2023, 05:16:59 PM
They're not even consistent. Another book said it was pro-vaccine and anti-fake news. Also, they're apparently not even the bad guys anymore?
Fuck it. I can't be bothered to keep up with this stupid shit.
For mage? I wasn't aware of that one. That doesn't even make any sense. At that point it's breaking its own setting rules so blatantly that it's no longer a RPG. It's some creepy, pushy leftoid politics primer that you're supposed to act out. The concept of 'fake news' doesn't even have any meaning in a game that's about consensual reality, and fuck no. Most mages are not going to be pro anything you inject into your body from a syringe. In proper MtA, that needle would probably be filled with stuff so vile that it would make the devil say, "Bro."
Found it!
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/354689/M20-Technocracy-Reloaded
QuoteWelcome to the Future
As the third decade of the 21st century dawns, the Technocratic Union stands on the cutting edge of a future imperiled. As science and technology draw humanity closer than ever before, certain factions within the Masses display gross negligence, undermining the Union's work and endangering the world for shortsighted gains. Despite global telecommunications, new frontiers in virtually every field of study, and an understanding of the universe only dreamed of by earlier generations, humanity faces threats on all sides.
Can You Save It?
Climate change threatens to destroy life as we know it. Religious fundamentalism breeds terror around the globe. Diseases, once eradicated in the developed world through vaccination, have returned due to antivaxxer movements. Totalitarian, nationalist governments rise as the Masses succumb to fear of the other. The world stands on the brink of destruction, and it is up to the agents and operatives of the Technocratic Union to save it...or be its ultimate destruction.
OMG, they're actually trying to make the factions morally gray now? That's just completely antithetical to the original themes of the game when it first started. The technos were originally supposed to be the villains. Sure, individual agents might be good people. Most of them might be good people. But they're misguided at best and don't know it.
It feels like they're trying to ape the moral grayness from Awakening, but here it's really obnoxious because they tie it into modern Western politics when it's clear they think the left is perfectly right.
I vastly prefer Pundit's take on it in Invisible College, not the least because he portrays the Enlightenment as a good thing rather than "science bad and wrong!" and I can use
Assassin's Creed analogies to explain the cliffnotes. If I was writing a magic-themed rpg, then I'd depict the super scientists as good guys trying to protect magical creatures from big pharma, the new inquisition, and satanic warlocks.
Quote from: phydeaux on January 16, 2023, 04:06:38 PM
M20A is so woke that I'm a little disturbed they managed to publish it without cognitive dissonance sneaking in and triggering a "Are we the baddies?" moment.
MtAs was always the game of "marginalized people punching up and sticking it to The (White) Man".
Problem (for WW/OP) was it was also a game that attracted a lot of smart people who knew the real world organizations the Traditions were based on were more sexist, homophobic, and generally as bad as the enemies they fought. But the publishers wanted this to be a game of White Hats fighting Black Hats, no matter how much the fanbase appreciated things like medicine, computers, democratic laws, commerce, etc.
In an ideal world, the Trads vs. Technos should've been a battle of Gray Hat vs Gray Hat, with Nephandi as Black Hats and Marauders as those magi of the other factions who had broken their relationship between themselves and the Consensus (in whatever form that uniquely ended up being).
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2023, 09:48:05 AM
Found it!
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/354689/M20-Technocracy-Reloaded
QuoteWelcome to the Future
As the third decade of the 21st century dawns, the Technocratic Union stands on the cutting edge of a future imperiled. As science and technology draw humanity closer than ever before, certain factions within the Masses display gross negligence, undermining the Union's work and endangering the world for shortsighted gains. Despite global telecommunications, new frontiers in virtually every field of study, and an understanding of the universe only dreamed of by earlier generations, humanity faces threats on all sides.
Can You Save It?
Climate change threatens to destroy life as we know it. Religious fundamentalism breeds terror around the globe. Diseases, once eradicated in the developed world through vaccination, have returned due to antivaxxer movements. Totalitarian, nationalist governments rise as the Masses succumb to fear of the other. The world stands on the brink of destruction, and it is up to the agents and operatives of the Technocratic Union to save it...or be its ultimate destruction.
OMG, they're actually trying to make the factions morally gray now? That's just completely antithetical to the original themes of the game when it first started. The technos were originally supposed to be the villains. Sure, individual agents might be good people. Most of them might be good people. But they're misguided at best and don't know it.
It feels like they're trying to ape the moral grayness from Awakening, but here it's really obnoxious because they tie it into modern Western politics when it's clear they think the left is perfectly right.
Mage was my JAM back in the day. It hit me at just the right age, gave me a lot to think about, and left a lasting impression in how I view things. I probably spent more time considering the ideas and implications of MtA when I was a kid than was strictly healthy. Between tabletop and the MUSH/MUX scene, I was probably tuned in to Mage about 7 days a week. Ridiculous looking back, but hey.
I'm actually alright with them trying to present each faction from a, "Everyone thinks they're the hero." perspective. That's fine and I prefer that to having one dimensional moustache-twirlers in a game about subjectivity. The irony is their description of the Technocracy is virtually indistinguishable from a typical lefty NPC talking point. At least in some part, this is due to the impossible task of trying to write an MtA game in an era where they "Fucking Love Science!" and are treating it like a religion. It's actually interesting to think about, because it boils down to the new left trying to update a game written by the old left, and they've changed so much in the last 30 years that their views are both completely incompatible and rigid.
The modern leftist's viewpoint is entirely too rigid to competently operate in an environment like Mage, where literally everything is subjective. Mages seek truth, but there is no truth save for the truth they invent. That was always the core message I took from Mage, and while that matched up well enough with a 90s liberal mindset, it's completely incompatible with the new breed of left-leaning thought which engages in fucking purity purges.
I find it a little distressing that no one involved seems to have the self-awareness to realize something is wrong when their modern viewpoints absolutely align with the villains of their own game. Then again, this is the same crowd who thinks Orcs are good, so siding with the bad guys is nothing new.
I don't agree with the whole "the truth is whatever you want it to be." That kind of denial of reality has led to the current lunacy in leftist circles. The game was always designed to reflect leftist attitudes about reality being whatever they want it to be, and we've seen where that led.
I prefer something more along the lines of "if you could change reality, then how far should you go?" Power corrupts and all that.
I've been tinkering with an urban fantasy setting where the temptation and corruption of reality warping power is an omnipresent danger for all magical people. You would think that there'd be a secret cabal of magical people controlling world affairs, but here that isn't the case. The reason why is because eventually magical people lose interest in Earth and decide to fuck off to their own personal isekai fantasies where they don't have to worry about dealing with real challenges. Real people have free will and opinions, they don't want to be your mindlessly devoted catgirl fuck slaves on your secret rape ranch, and it's just too damn hard to spend time imposing your totalitarian dictatorship when you can just make a fake reality that caters to your delusions. Very few people are able to resist the allure of becoming wireheads when given the chance.
In other words, the ultimate fate of mages isn't archmastery: it's becoming the gentry. Hopefully you'll get that reference, but if you don't that's fine too.
And yes, this is deliberately misanthropic social commentary.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2023, 11:22:32 AMYou would think that there'd be a secret cabal of magical people controlling world affairs, but here that isn't the case. The reason why is ...it's just too damn hard to spend time imposing your totalitarian dictatorship when you can just make a fake reality that caters to your delusions. Very few people are able to resist the allure of becoming wireheads when given the chance.
The interesting element of this approach is that it suggests the really dangerous mages would actually be the ones with the persistence, dedication to a greater ideal, patience, and perspective necessary to stay the course on manifesting their visions. In other words, the ones who are legitimately in it for a cause they truly believe in rather than, at bottom, mere self-gratification of power -- the people we would normally want to think of as the "good" guys.
(C.S. Lewis points out this paradox in
The Screwtape Letters when his devil Screwtape observes, somewhat exasperatedly, that to be truly and effectively wicked a man needs at least some virtue as well (
"What would Attila have been without his courage...?"), and since the devils cannot really produce or control virtue they are always forced to work with tools prone to turning in their hands.)
There's also the fact that humans who exist for too long without experiencing significant, personally meaningful challenges tend to get bored. So unless it's a condition of these personal otherworlds that mages who disappear into them can't come back, another group of the really dangerous mages would be the ones who finally outgrow them and return to Earth ready to deal with stuff that will actually resist their will.
Mages were assholes, every last one of them. The Traditions couldn't give a shit about the rest of humanity, they were just clawing at the power they'd lost and trying to get back on top. The Technocracy didn't give a shit about the rest of humanity either, they were fighting to stay on top. In each case it was a big case of "fuck you got mine", just couched in trappings of how their side was the side who wanted the best for people. If the Traditions won the war, a week later they'd be off in their golden towers and floating castles and the unawakened humans would all be enslaved just as bad or worse than they fared with the Technocracy ascendant. Both groups were better than the Nephandi solely by merit of not wanting the world to be devoured by the Wyrm, but none of them would be your friend if you bumped into them in the street.
Quote from: Valatar on January 17, 2023, 03:32:57 PMThe Traditions couldn't give a shit about the rest of humanity, they were just clawing at the power they'd lost and trying to get back on top. The Technocracy didn't give a shit about the rest of humanity either, they were fighting to stay on top.
Well, that was the tragedy of both factions, in that you really could see the classic arc play out even in their own self-interested reporting of their histories: They started as movements which became businesses, and then eventually degenerated into rackets, the first of which was overthrown by a more successful movement and is now trying to move against the successor racket.
Both also had the advantage that they were speaking to real needs of the people supporting them: the Traditions for spiritual meaning and purpose (
"I want to matter to the universe, to make a difference"), the Technocracy for material comfort and prosperity (
"I want the universe to be a better place to live in"). The Marauders and the Nephandi were both attempts to bail out of this paradigm: the Marauders by saying,
"Purpose is meaningless, so embrace randomness", the Nephandi by saying,
"Comfort and suffering are both meaningless, so embrace oblivion".
I would have been interested to see
Mage written as a game about the idea of resolving lesser conflicts as alliances against greater dangers, where the goal is ultimately for the Traditions and the Technocracy to unite and produce something better than either, but picking any one "story arc" for that setting might reasonably have been criticized as too limiting.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 17, 2023, 02:42:39 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2023, 11:22:32 AMYou would think that there'd be a secret cabal of magical people controlling world affairs, but here that isn't the case. The reason why is ...it's just too damn hard to spend time imposing your totalitarian dictatorship when you can just make a fake reality that caters to your delusions. Very few people are able to resist the allure of becoming wireheads when given the chance.
The interesting element of this approach is that it suggests the really dangerous mages would actually be the ones with the persistence, dedication to a greater ideal, patience, and perspective necessary to stay the course on manifesting their visions. In other words, the ones who are legitimately in it for a cause they truly believe in rather than, at bottom, mere self-gratification of power -- the people we would normally want to think of as the "good" guys.
(C.S. Lewis points out this paradox in The Screwtape Letters when his devil Screwtape observes, somewhat exasperatedly, that to be truly and effectively wicked a man needs at least some virtue as well ("What would Attila have been without his courage...?"), and since the devils cannot really produce or control virtue they are always forced to work with tools prone to turning in their hands.)
There's also the fact that humans who exist for too long without experiencing significant, personally meaningful challenges tend to get bored. So unless it's a condition of these personal otherworlds that mages who disappear into them can't come back, another group of the really dangerous mages would be the ones who finally outgrow them and return to Earth ready to deal with stuff that will actually resist their will.
I imagine the otherworlds operate like video game/porn addiction except they're no longer bound by the laws of physics in their pursuit of pleasure. Including time, so they have an eternity to mutate physically and mentally. Whatever they've become now is a Warhammer chaos daemon, not something recognizable as having once been human. Or a corpse universe from Midnight World rpg. Imagine the most horrifying analogy you can think of because I'm not sure whether you'll understand the pop culture references I make.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2023, 04:16:49 PMWhatever they've become now is a Warhammer chaos daemon, not something recognizable as having once been human.
Which makes total sense as a possible effect of becoming god of your own reality -- which, I have to admit, I always found horrifying as an idea too, especially on finding out that the "End Times" MAGE book
Ascension explicitly describes this as one of the possible resolutions for the World of Darkness: every single living human being Ascends to become god of their own reality.
But even the Chaos gods of
Warhammer eventually wanted back into the mortal plane. The problem, of course, was that if they ever actually succeeded that was basically the end of the game, so the people the PCs had to fight were the servants, cultists and summoners rather than the actual greater-scope villain.
It sounds like in your world, ironically, magic would only be part of covert power structures insofar as the people using it still valued magic itself more as a means than an end, and if the nature of magic is itself to be a fundamentally addictive power that eventually becomes its own end, the paradox is that the people really in charge of the Conspiracy pyramids would be the Muggles who knew how to manipulate wizards through purely non-magical means, and how to eliminate them when they were becoming uncontrollable.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 17, 2023, 03:48:57 PM
Quote from: Valatar on January 17, 2023, 03:32:57 PMThe Traditions couldn't give a shit about the rest of humanity, they were just clawing at the power they'd lost and trying to get back on top. The Technocracy didn't give a shit about the rest of humanity either, they were fighting to stay on top.
Well, that was the tragedy of both factions, in that you really could see the classic arc play out even in their own self-interested reporting of their histories: They started as movements which became businesses, and then eventually degenerated into rackets, the first of which was overthrown by a more successful movement and is now trying to move against the successor racket.
Both also had the advantage that they were speaking to real needs of the people supporting them: the Traditions for spiritual meaning and purpose ("I want to matter to the universe, to make a difference"), the Technocracy for material comfort and prosperity ("I want the universe to be a better place to live in").
But it seems to me that much as Valatar says, neither the Traditions or Technocracy actually cared about the mass of humanity. That was very much my impression of the original Mage: the Ascension. The Traditions wanted *themselves* to matter to the universe, but they weren't interested in empowering or enlightening others. The Technocracy likewise only wanted power for themselves, and weren't really trying to protect or care for the masses.
In general, the whole cosmology of M:tA is baselessly anti-science, where scientists in there are trying to suppress the truth rather than reveal it - which is the opposite of science in the real world.
I was much more partial to the split of C. J. Carella's GURPS Voodoo, which I thought had a much more interesting handling of real-world magical traditions - where different traditions had their flaws, but those flaws were connected to more real-world history.
Quote from: jhkim on January 17, 2023, 05:10:01 PMThe Traditions wanted *themselves* to matter to the universe, but they weren't interested in empowering or enlightening others. The Technocracy likewise only wanted power for themselves, and weren't really trying to protect or care for the masses.
I think we were certainly meant to take away, as an ongoing realization, that neither faction was as altruistic as it presented itself, true. But that doesn't mean either group's altruism was entirely a lie, either. The Order of Reason's declaration of war at Mistridge was never presented as anything other than a conscious and sincere intent to improve the lot of humanity in general, and the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions are usually depicted as having been wildly successful in at least one dimension of that goal. Similarly, however real the self-interest the Traditions have in not being exterminated and regaining their power from the "old days", there is a real and valid case for their fundamental claim: that the technological and material comfort of the Technocracy's world, and its rigid, organizational complexity, have left many humans feeling purposeless, impotent and irrelevant, and that Awakened enlightenment and magick is a birthright which was forcefully and unjustly denied them. However corrupt and venal people in authority on either side might be, the expectation is that the PCs are always among the "good ones", the ones who sincerely mean better and want to help others (however they understand those terms).
It occurs to me now that both sides in that conflict, due to the very nature of magick in the game, exemplify a particular feature of Woke critical discourse, which is:
There is no point trying to engage with a system so definitionally rigged against you that it will not even admit your desired goals are valid. So that is one way in which
Mage was very definitely a precursor of Woke attitudes;
Mage magic is the ultimate form of "when you aren't allowed to win the game, flip the table" protest.
Quote from: phydeaux on January 17, 2023, 10:36:00 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2023, 09:48:05 AM
Found it!
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/354689/M20-Technocracy-Reloaded
QuoteWelcome to the Future
As the third decade of the 21st century dawns, the Technocratic Union stands on the cutting edge of a future imperiled. As science and technology draw humanity closer than ever before, certain factions within the Masses display gross negligence, undermining the Union's work and endangering the world for shortsighted gains. Despite global telecommunications, new frontiers in virtually every field of study, and an understanding of the universe only dreamed of by earlier generations, humanity faces threats on all sides.
Can You Save It?
Climate change threatens to destroy life as we know it. Religious fundamentalism breeds terror around the globe. Diseases, once eradicated in the developed world through vaccination, have returned due to antivaxxer movements. Totalitarian, nationalist governments rise as the Masses succumb to fear of the other. The world stands on the brink of destruction, and it is up to the agents and operatives of the Technocratic Union to save it...or be its ultimate destruction.
OMG, they're actually trying to make the factions morally gray now? That's just completely antithetical to the original themes of the game when it first started. The technos were originally supposed to be the villains. Sure, individual agents might be good people. Most of them might be good people. But they're misguided at best and don't know it.
It feels like they're trying to ape the moral grayness from Awakening, but here it's really obnoxious because they tie it into modern Western politics when it's clear they think the left is perfectly right.
Mage was my JAM back in the day. It hit me at just the right age, gave me a lot to think about, and left a lasting impression in how I view things. I probably spent more time considering the ideas and implications of MtA when I was a kid than was strictly healthy. Between tabletop and the MUSH/MUX scene, I was probably tuned in to Mage about 7 days a week. Ridiculous looking back, but hey.
I'm actually alright with them trying to present each faction from a, "Everyone thinks they're the hero." perspective. That's fine and I prefer that to having one dimensional moustache-twirlers in a game about subjectivity. The irony is their description of the Technocracy is virtually indistinguishable from a typical lefty NPC talking point. At least in some part, this is due to the impossible task of trying to write an MtA game in an era where they "Fucking Love Science!" and are treating it like a religion. It's actually interesting to think about, because it boils down to the new left trying to update a game written by the old left, and they've changed so much in the last 30 years that their views are both completely incompatible and rigid.
The modern leftist's viewpoint is entirely too rigid to competently operate in an environment like Mage, where literally everything is subjective. Mages seek truth, but there is no truth save for the truth they invent. That was always the core message I took from Mage, and while that matched up well enough with a 90s liberal mindset, it's completely incompatible with the new breed of left-leaning thought which engages in fucking purity purges.
I find it a little distressing that no one involved seems to have the self-awareness to realize something is wrong when their modern viewpoints absolutely align with the villains of their own game. Then again, this is the same crowd who thinks Orcs are good, so siding with the bad guys is nothing new.
That entire Technocracy book is born of the cognitive dissonance in the left nowadays of "trust the science" "listen to official sources only" "Do what you're told to by the government." but also "we are edgy rebel anarchists who hate corporations and want real communism." The modern left are supposed to worship a group like the Technocracy as morally right and justified in everything they do. They resembled real world corporations and conspiracies in a time where people thought they were the baddies. Now they resemble real world corporations and conspiracies in a time where you are supposed to think they are good guys. When they haven't actually changed anything about what they do. But still have to reconcile old lore saying everything they did was literally Hitler 2.
This goes into what I have said many times before. SJWs are hypocrites who don't actually believe in a god damn thing. They know how shaky making the Technocracy into a morally justified globalist group is. They just want to be SEEN as "spreading the message". It's so facetious and dishonest. There's no way it's being done unintentionally. It'd be great if that was all in lore and it was just "their perspective" but it's not. It's a mirror of the writer's own shaky and shallow virtue signalling for brownie points disguised as beliefs.
Personally I'd continue making out the Technocracy are evil globalists, but they basically reveal themselves to the world. And use social media to manipulate the world into thinking that the Technocracy are heckin valid and hunting the Traditions because they are "gross fascists." Whilst still shaping belief in "the science" and using shallow SJW beliefs in pseudo science for their own ends. That would be an actual "modernization" of Mage to me at least.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 17, 2023, 04:33:31 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2023, 04:16:49 PMWhatever they've become now is a Warhammer chaos daemon, not something recognizable as having once been human.
Which makes total sense as a possible effect of becoming god of your own reality -- which, I have to admit, I always found horrifying as an idea too, especially on finding out that the "End Times" MAGE book Ascension explicitly describes this as one of the possible resolutions for the World of Darkness: every single living human being Ascends to become god of their own reality.
But even the Chaos gods of Warhammer eventually wanted back into the mortal plane. The problem, of course, was that if they ever actually succeeded that was basically the end of the game, so the people the PCs had to fight were the servants, cultists and summoners rather than the actual greater-scope villain.
It sounds like in your world, ironically, magic would only be part of covert power structures insofar as the people using it still valued magic itself more as a means than an end, and if the nature of magic is itself to be a fundamentally addictive power that eventually becomes its own end, the paradox is that the people really in charge of the Conspiracy pyramids would be the Muggles who knew how to manipulate wizards through purely non-magical means, and how to eliminate them when they were becoming uncontrollable.
That reminds me. Back in the 90s there was another magician rpg called
Nephilim that was originally published in French and then adapted to an American release by Chaosium. In that game, magicians were a persecuted minority while the villains were the muggle-run illuminati. The illuminati hunted down magicians so they could be drained of blood and their blood used to power the illuminati's spells, among other things. The American version only included blood rituals and turning magicians into homunculus slaves, but the French version apparently had the illuminati dismembering the magicians for magical body parts.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 18, 2023, 10:34:33 AMBack in the 90s there was another magician rpg called Nephilim that was originally published in French and then adapted to an American release by Chaosium. In that game, magicians were a persecuted minority while the villains were the muggle-run illuminati. The illuminati hunted down magicians so they could be drained of blood and their blood used to power the illuminati's spells, among other things. The American version only included blood rituals and turning magicians into homunculus slaves, but the French version apparently had the illuminati dismembering the magicians for magical body parts.
Yoiks! That might be a bit much for me solely on personal taste levels. I had seen copies of the game before, but had never read through it deeply enough to understand that part of the setting background.
Interestingly, though I generally try to avoid "Woke" style responses to things as a policy these days, that might be one of the few game ideas where I can see myself saying, "You know, that's
awfully close to the classic anti-Semitic 'blood libel' myth in a lot of ways . . . could we maybe find a slightly less on-the-nose atrocity to attribute to the evil conspiracy, here? Just as a matter of taste and common decency, if nothing else."
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 18, 2023, 06:46:42 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 18, 2023, 10:34:33 AMBack in the 90s there was another magician rpg called Nephilim that was originally published in French and then adapted to an American release by Chaosium. In that game, magicians were a persecuted minority while the villains were the muggle-run illuminati. The illuminati hunted down magicians so they could be drained of blood and their blood used to power the illuminati's spells, among other things. The American version only included blood rituals and turning magicians into homunculus slaves, but the French version apparently had the illuminati dismembering the magicians for magical body parts.
Yoiks! That might be a bit much for me solely on personal taste levels. I had seen copies of the game before, but had never read through it deeply enough to understand that part of the setting background.
Interestingly, though I generally try to avoid "Woke" style responses to things as a policy these days, that might be one of the few game ideas where I can see myself saying, "You know, that's awfully close to the classic anti-Semitic 'blood libel' myth in a lot of ways . . . could we maybe find a slightly less on-the-nose atrocity to attribute to the evil conspiracy, here? Just as a matter of taste and common decency, if nothing else."
The magicians practice Kabbalah (called so in the French version, renamed to Summoning in the American version but still uses Kabbalistic lore) and, at least in the American version, the Holocaust was orchestrated as deliberate mass human sacrifice. Magicians were harvested for their magic, and the innocent muggles were drained of blood that could be used in other magical workings such as creating antimagic weapons (for extra evil points, antimagic in this setting is environmentally destructive, because nature runs on magic). Blood contains the energy of the soul, and human souls hold unimaginable potential. So I think it actually avoids the blood libel trap that other urban fantasy falls into: the magicians are innocent of any wrongdoing and millions of innocent people were deliberately murdered so their souls could be harvested. The illuminati are knowingly evil and perform atrocities all the time.
So it's more like the magicians are Jewish and the villains are cannibal nazis. Or the craziest wiccan burning times myth propaganda. "Not only were the innocent women burned by the inquisition actual (good) witches, but the inquisition was actually a vast satanic conspiracy the whole time that deliberately murdered millions of non-magical innocents in order to harvest their souls for Satan!"
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 17, 2023, 05:24:08 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 17, 2023, 05:10:01 PMThe Traditions wanted *themselves* to matter to the universe, but they weren't interested in empowering or enlightening others. The Technocracy likewise only wanted power for themselves, and weren't really trying to protect or care for the masses.
I think we were certainly meant to take away, as an ongoing realization, that neither faction was as altruistic as it presented itself, true. But that doesn't mean either group's altruism was entirely a lie, either. The Order of Reason's declaration of war at Mistridge was never presented as anything other than a conscious and sincere intent to improve the lot of humanity in general, and the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions are usually depicted as having been wildly successful in at least one dimension of that goal. Similarly, however real the self-interest the Traditions have in not being exterminated and regaining their power from the "old days", there is a real and valid case for their fundamental claim: that the technological and material comfort of the Technocracy's world, and its rigid, organizational complexity, have left many humans feeling purposeless, impotent and irrelevant, and that Awakened enlightenment and magick is a birthright which was forcefully and unjustly denied them.
I agree that there was a partial truth in there. It is just that in the portrayals of 1st edition, those technicalities didn't come across as motivation. Even the good guy Traditions seemed to regard the mass of humanity as an obstacle rather than oppressed people to be freed. I've only played two one-shots, though - so maybe further books gave a different impression.
By comparison, I feel urban fantasy works like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, GURPS Voodoo, and similar have heroes who take seriously protecting the masses.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 17, 2023, 05:24:08 PM
It occurs to me now that both sides in that conflict, due to the very nature of magick in the game, exemplify a particular feature of Woke critical discourse, which is: There is no point trying to engage with a system so definitionally rigged against you that it will not even admit your desired goals are valid. So that is one way in which Mage was very definitely a precursor of Woke attitudes; Mage magic is the ultimate form of "when you aren't allowed to win the game, flip the table" protest.
I think that's common with almost all revolutionaries, woke or not. Even non-violent resistance movements have often defied the law as part of their protests, even though their ultimate goal wasn't armed overthrow of the government.
Most RPGs have a very individualist ethos, emphasizing lone heroes fighting, rather than incremental collective action within the system. Obviously, that's because it's about action heroes.
Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 09:08:32 PMI agree that there was a partial truth in there. It is just that in the portrayals of 1st edition, those technicalities didn't come across as motivation. Even the good guy Traditions seemed to regard the mass of humanity as an obstacle rather than oppressed people to be freed. I've only played two one-shots, though - so maybe further books gave a different impression.
Yes, starting from 2nd edition and going forward the Mage worldbooks paid a lot more attention to the fact that however much people hated the Technocracy, in practice the vast majority of players weren't down for an "Ascension" that required giving up electrification, mass transit and public sanitation, so the conflict got a little bit more shades-of-grey.
QuoteQuote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 17, 2023, 05:24:08 PMSo that is one way in which Mage was very definitely a precursor of Woke attitudes; Mage magic is the ultimate form of "when you aren't allowed to win the game, flip the table" protest.
I think that's common with almost all revolutionaries, woke or not. Even non-violent resistance movements have often defied the law as part of their protests, even though their ultimate goal wasn't armed overthrow of the government.
Most RPGs have a very individualist ethos, emphasizing lone heroes fighting, rather than incremental collective action within the system. Obviously, that's because it's about action heroes.
This is true, and it was one of the things I among other fans of the game sometimes griped about: For all the in-fluff emphasis of the game on "shifting the Consensus paradigm", there wasn't a whole lot written down (in any of the rulebooks I saw, anyway) about how one was actually supposed to
do this, or track the effects of it being done, in either fluff or crunch ways (even something as simple as "Gauntlet difficulty drops by 1 for every 10,000 people in an area who start believing in magic again").
That was another precursor element of Wokeness in WW games: the conflicts in every version of the game were always stacked so firmly on the side of the Establishment that it was generally obvious the only way for the PCs to "win" was to either adopt the methods of their oppressors (and thus become them) or to bring down the entire rotten house of cards and blindly hope something better would emerge from the ruins.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 21, 2023, 05:54:06 PMThat was another precursor element of Wokeness in WW games: the conflicts in every version of the game were always stacked so firmly on the side of the Establishment that it was generally obvious the only way for the PCs to "win" was to either adopt the methods of their oppressors (and thus become them) or to bring down the entire rotten house of cards and blindly hope something better would emerge from the ruins.
Exactly. You see this especially in the vampire game: characters start with a fixed "generation" trait at character creation that places a cap on their abilities (basically a magical glass ceiling), and the
only way to increase it during play is through illegal murder-cannibalism. This has encouraged players to buy up the max amount they can during character creation, even for non-munchkins. While this mechanic is supposed to play into the intended themes of the game, in practice it just forces everyone to become a munchkin. V5 could've removed it and replaced it with blood-potency imported from VtR using some magical in-universe explanation, but didn't (presumably because it's "tradition", not that they consistently adhere to this).
WW games are probably the worst example of "games we only play because of cliquism, nostalgia and tradition rather than any measured analysis." I'm not gonna say that Chronicles is much better (initially the devs tried streamlining the rules and setting design, but by 2e they gave up and made it as unwieldy and inconsistent as they could), but 99% of the dislikes are baseless hatred for it being different from and being released during a hiatus of its parent/sister IP rather than any kind of pros/cons analysis. Pretty much everyone who weighs in on the subject agrees Lost is better than Dreaming, but Dreaming is the only version still being supported by the company and the fandom simply because it came out first and this industry is stagnant and appeal to tradition fallacy af.
You know how wokies love to accuse their opponents of arbitrarily hating change and difference? In this industry, it's painfully accurate. That's why I've given up on ever trying to make my own games.
But I digress.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 21, 2023, 05:54:06 PMThis is true, and it was one of the things I among other fans of the game sometimes griped about: For all the in-fluff emphasis of the game on "shifting the Consensus paradigm", there wasn't a whole lot written down (in any of the rulebooks I saw, anyway) about how one was actually supposed to do this, or track the effects of it being done, in either fluff or crunch ways (even something as simple as "Gauntlet difficulty drops by 1 for every 10,000 people in an area who start believing in magic again").
The IP has hardly been consistent in its rules. In 3e and earlier, it was common for the books to use "results-based determinism" (this phrase was coined during internet arguments, natch), meaning that the process which brought about the effect of a spell wasn't related to the intended effect. One example from either the core or the storyteller guide/handbook was creating lightning to ward enemies by a nearby powerline spontaneously breaking and falling between them. The Technocracy book uses the example of an agent causing architecture to collapse behind him, with him causing this by putting on goggles that let him see that the collapse was going to happen anyway (i.e. he's in denial that he caused it and rationalizes it as something that was already happening). This is what was meant by all those times in various books where it mentions that mages disguise their spells as mundane coincidences. In 4e (and in spin-off game Awakening), the rules instead use "process-based determinism," where the process and effect of the spell are determined by the caster and cannot be disguised as mundane coincidences (or at least trying to do so is a lot harder). The mage waves their wand or whatever they're using, and the spell happens. Lightning comes out of their fingertips, or objects they point to spontaneously rot, etc.
If WW can't even be consistent about something as basic as how their magic system works, then how can you expect rigorous consistency anywhere else? In fact, I don't think most groups even use the RAW, do they?
As you said, I don't think the players were ever expected to succeed. So rules for doing so were never devised. That's pretty much the case for all the games.
Also, the consensus never made sense to begin with. Mythcreants pointed this out (https://mythcreants.com/blog/five-common-masquerade-explanations-and-why-theyre-bad/).
Quote1. No One Believes in Magic Anymore
A diverse group of people wielding magic
The RPG Mage: The Ascension explains the masquerade with the idea of consensual reality – magic goes against what people believe in. This has problems, but at least the game has a weak explanation for why people stopped believing in magic.
Like most explanations, this one comes in a variety of flavors. Usually, it's part of some belief mechanic in which magical things are hidden because people don't believe in them. An example of this is the consensual reality in the RPG Mage: The Ascension. In Mage, casting magic out in the open does damage to the caster because onlookers don't believe it's real. In other stories, the lack of belief has pushed magical things out of the world, or most people can't see magic just because they're too stubborn to believe in it. Everyone's into science these days, so there's no room for fairies and unicorns!
Yeah, no. First of all, are you really going to tell your fantasy audience that people won't believe in magic? Maybe you could've made that case back when people looked down on speculative fiction, but now that Amazon is spending a billion dollars on a fantasy TV show, that's not going to fly. Plenty of people are ready to believe in magic with even the slightest rumor, much less solid evidence.
Assuming you can overcome that obstacle, there's another issue. These worlds come with the assumption that people believed in magic long ago; that's why we've heard of it at all. But then why did people stop believing in it? It would be like everyone deciding they don't believe in electricity or raccoons anymore.
Speaking of which, why is only magic affected by belief? How did Nicolaus Copernicus prove that the earth rotates around the sun when everyone believed otherwise? If belief changed reality or even just our sensory perception of it, we would still think the Earth is the center of our solar system. If we all decided raccoons were a myth, would they disappear?
At best, this explanation doesn't stand up to scrutiny. At worst, it feels like an insult to fans who would like to see some magic, please.
A lot of people believe in magic but that doesn't affect the consensus even locally, while they can still contribute to the consensus without believing it. Really? It's wishy-washy, inconsistent, and obviously wasn't intended to be challenged.
In one of my urban fantasy settings, where monsters and magic and otherworlds are linked to human imagination, I point out that the relationship is poorly understood and inconsistent in-universe in order to cover my ass. I even make a joke out of it by pointing out that real psychics who speak truth are always disbelieved while fake ones who spout lies are always believed. Does this make sense? Not really, but the psychics hate it.
Why did people stop believing in magic when it actually exists? Don't know!
Why are vampires harmed by belief in religion, but aren't poofed out of existence by disbelief in them? Don't know!
It's magic. It doesn't make sense. Anything that isn't realistic fiction or hard scifi is going to break down under scrutiny. And even hard scifi is going to age.
Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2023, 09:08:32 PM
Most RPGs have a very individualist ethos, emphasizing lone heroes fighting, rather than incremental collective action within the system. Obviously, that's because it's about action heroes.
This format may work the best with the emergent and group play nature of rpgs compared to other options. Roleplaying a real activist engaging in incremental action is probably going to be extremely boring compared to fighting crime. Creating a long-running and coherent "story" is probably impossible without railroading, which has its own problems. (e.g. The
Vox Machina tv show is quite frankly a mess, and it was heavily edited from the original plays.)
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 21, 2023, 07:14:48 PMYou know how wokies love to accuse their opponents of arbitrarily hating change and difference? In this industry, it's painfully accurate. That's why I've given up on ever trying to make my own games.
I'm sorry to hear that last bit -- I would have loved to see the final result of your Storyteller hack that you were working on a while ago. But I understand the frustration.
I think the problem with nerd fandom of any stripe is that we are all prone to the strenuously self-contradictory tensions of wanting to preserve forever, or recapture exactly as we first experienced it, our first biggest thrill in discovering these dreamworlds, while at the same time being desperate for novel additions to them that make sure we don't get bored. If there's a reliable way to resolve that tension, I'm not sure I know it, but acknowledging it exists is probably the biggest first step.
(This is another through-line straight into Wokist thought, which always holds the new as superior to the old simply by virtue of
being new.)
QuoteIn one of my urban fantasy settings, where monsters and magic and otherworlds are linked to human imagination, I point out that the relationship is poorly understood and inconsistent in-universe in order to cover my ass. I even make a joke out of it by pointing out that real psychics who speak truth are always disbelieved while fake ones who spout lies are always believed. Does this make sense? Not really, but the psychics hate it.
Paging Cassandra Atreides, Cassandra Atreides to the house telephone, please.... ;D
The question of how a world can look like ours and still have magic working somewhere in it is the single biggest thing all urban fantasy stories/games have to answer, and part of the problem is that in a story you can establish relatively static or customized rules permitting just what fantasticness the author wishes and no more. In a game, thanks to (as you point out) the nostalgia-driven influence of D&D, the problem is that the PCs are always going to want to get better and more powerful, and to have more of an effect, until it doesn't matter
what explanation supports the Masquerade, the PCs' actions are eventually going to bust it open.
That's why one of my favourite game ideas has always been about developing a world that exists
after the Masquerade has fallen, or even better, deliberately embracing the idea that the game is going to be
about the Masquerade coming down, and what the PCs do to make the transition less (or more!) destructive. The World of Darkness games always flirted tragically close to the Great Revelation without ever doing this, because they were all about the Y2K-millennial dread of waiting for that moment, not about thinking what was actually on the other side.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 21, 2023, 10:57:22 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 21, 2023, 07:14:48 PMYou know how wokies love to accuse their opponents of arbitrarily hating change and difference? In this industry, it's painfully accurate. That's why I've given up on ever trying to make my own games.
I'm sorry to hear that last bit -- I would have loved to see the final result of your Storyteller hack that you were working on a while ago. But I understand the frustration.
I think the problem with nerd fandom of any stripe is that we are all prone to the strenuously self-contradictory tensions of wanting to preserve forever, or recapture exactly as we first experienced it, our first biggest thrill in discovering these dreamworlds, while at the same time being desperate for novel additions to them that make sure we don't get bored. If there's a reliable way to resolve that tension, I'm not sure I know it, but acknowledging it exists is probably the biggest first step.
(This is another through-line straight into Wokist thought, which always holds the new as superior to the old simply by virtue of being new.)
Ah yes, the appeal to novelty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty) fallacy. It's the logical opposite, but equally irrational.
You hit the nail on the head with the inconsistent desires. Gamers are basically holding both the appeal to tradition and appeal to novelty fallacies in their heads at the same time, causing cognitive dissonance that seeps into their work to produce inconsistent irrational results.
I think one of the ways to avoid this is simply to not limit yourself to a single campaign setting but adopt a toolkit approach for replicating an entire genre, like what
All Flesh Must Be Eaten or
Night's Black Agents do. The problem for me has always been the arbitrary restrictions and the square peg round hole problem. No single game can do everything and it's pointless to try: you can make a game that does one specific thing very well or does a bunch of things okayish or poorly. Stuff like the rules complexity and where it sits on the GNS triangle affect its efficacy.
For example, something like lightside/darkside mechanics probably work best with more abstract systems where characters have a fixed number of traits that can switch between lightside and darkside versions, as opposed to the traditional design where characters can accumulate any number of traits. A good example of what I mean comes directly from WW: in the vampire games you can achieve humanity 10, blood-potency 10, and all other traits at 10 (the max possible value under the game rules) without any internal conflict in the rules because the complex rules track all of these separately. VtR 2e tries to make increasing vampire-related traits a humanity violation, but that's a band-aid fix since they cannot rewrite the way characters are built. To fix this you'd need to build a new system from the ground up, such as
Feed. I consider that game to be the best implementation of a humanity mechanic in all of ttrpg history, but nobody is going to play it because it didn't come out in 1990 and attract goth gamers.
I think the solution is to deliberately avoid the logical fallacies. You should figure out what your goal is for the game, take the most efficient route towards accomplishing that goal, and don't bite off more than you can chew. Easier said than done, tho.
And I think this same problem is true for a lot of media in general. There's this obsession with a handful of huge kitchen sink franchises rather than a plethora of franchises that can play to their own strengths. Right now we've reached the inevitable bottleneck problem where those franchises can no longer stay solvent, and once they collapse then there's nothing to take their place. Can you name any space fantasy franchises beyond
Star Wars? Any idealistic space opera franchises beyond
Star Trek?
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 21, 2023, 10:57:22 PMQuoteIn one of my urban fantasy settings, where monsters and magic and otherworlds are linked to human imagination, I point out that the relationship is poorly understood and inconsistent in-universe in order to cover my ass. I even make a joke out of it by pointing out that real psychics who speak truth are always disbelieved while fake ones who spout lies are always believed. Does this make sense? Not really, but the psychics hate it.
Paging Cassandra Atreides, Cassandra Atreides to the house telephone, please.... ;D
The question of how a world can look like ours and still have magic working somewhere in it is the single biggest thing all urban fantasy stories/games have to answer, and part of the problem is that in a story you can establish relatively static or customized rules permitting just what fantasticness the author wishes and no more. In a game, thanks to (as you point out) the nostalgia-driven influence of D&D, the problem is that the PCs are always going to want to get better and more powerful, and to have more of an effect, until it doesn't matter what explanation supports the Masquerade, the PCs' actions are eventually going to bust it open.
That's why one of my favourite game ideas has always been about developing a world that exists after the Masquerade has fallen, or even better, deliberately embracing the idea that the game is going to be about the Masquerade coming down, and what the PCs do to make the transition less (or more!) destructive. The World of Darkness games always flirted tragically close to the Great Revelation without ever doing this, because they were all about the Y2K-millennial dread of waiting for that moment, not about thinking what was actually on the other side.
That is the appeal of games like
Torg,
Shadowrun or
Rifts. I haven't tried those because I feel they lose the main strength of urban fantasy (no, romance does not count): it is anchored in our world and specifically our present.
Damage control sounds like an interesting premise, but by its very nature it doesn't lend itself to long-running campaigns. Eventually it will transition into post-revelation/post-apocalypse secondary world. But it certainly sounds interesting enough to justify a mini-setting supplement or something.
God, I miss the days when
Polyhedron gave you a new mini-setting every other month during WotC's "let's try to compete with GURPS" phase. I'd never previously considered playing a game centered around off-road racing tournaments, tour bands with pet orangutans, Crichton-style technothrillers, or being trapped in a VR combat sim, but
Polyhedron got me interested in these ideas. That's the sort of creativity I miss in the tabletop scene. If I want to see those sorts of premises nowadays, then I have to scour the oversaturated indie video game scene and those are always limited by their programming.
I'm probably in the minority here in that I actually started playing rpgs with Masquerade, I'm not American so most of the political messages in the games eluded me back then, still, if you can somehow manage to separate the art from the artist (something that seems to have become almost impossible these days) the setting is incredibly original and full of great roleplaying possibilities despite the many flaws of the game itself, the system in particular was always shit.
Regarding the authors, well, even the staunchest fanboys will readily admit that they were colossal cunts, they never had problems disrespecting people and especially fans, always thought they were the hot shit and their self righteousness was unbearable even back then, the whole woke thing was mostly an excuse for them to keep acting like assholes while claiming moral superiority over anyone they didn't like which is hilarious considering the fact that they had a number of pedos, groomers and other shitbags in their ranks, Onyx Path in particular which is basically what remains of White Wolf, are the absolute worse in this, one of their lead writers on the Chronicles of Darkness line turned out to be a pedo whose new line was about monsters who had to survive by abusing people to teach them "lessons", talk about hidden messages.
Honestly, the writing is just bad. It's pretentious af and anytime they discuss real locations or cultures the research is garbage. Much of this is precisely because of the unsubtle political messaging.
I could've ignored that and I certainly tried to. I only grew to absolutely despise the settings after constantly being told "no you can't do that, it's against the lore!" That stupid bullying instilled me with a perpetual hatred for default campaign settings and an obsession with toolkits.
These aren't original either: Nightlife had a similar premise the year before. The books loved to list inspirations too, so even the writers admit it. Some of it crosses over into blatant ripoff territory, particularly with several of the vampire classes being blatant ripoffs of very specific 70s and 80s vampire novels like Interview with the Vampire and Necroscope, or even non-vampire anime like Sazan Eyes.
Yeah, the writing was always shit and the community is full of fucking dipshits yet the setting was virtually unheard of back then, I heard of nightlife only in my adulthood since it wasn't very successful and went down after a while, still gotta give it a read someday.
In my opinion Chronicles of Darkness (the 2nd edition line of what was colloquially known as new world of darkness) is the best line so far, completely devoid of metaplot so you can the tell the cunts who start yapping about you changing shit to eat a dick, total toolkit approach, take what you like and ditch the rest, the system itself is also a great improvement over the mess that the original storyteller system was, the writing is as pretentious as ever and extremely vague to boot although that is an advantage in a way since you are supposed to come up with a lot of the setting yourself so it makes it easier to be creative.
I feel like the writers lost their focus and drive as the line continued. The initial games were messy and suffered from contradictory design goals, but they hit their stride around Promethean (which I think is colorful and extremely well constructed around its themes compared to other WW games, but it didn't get very popular because it was focused around going on a literal pilgrimage to become human and the prior games had trained the fandom to do local politics indefinitely). Vigil and Lost were nice peaks when they released, easily the most creative games WW has ever produced and ever will produce. Afterward things felt very forced and trying too hard to be different from cWoD. The overdesigned rules in 2e were not a welcome addition for me and contributed to me losing interest completely after all the bullshit that happened before that. The GMC was just an attempt to ape Cthulhu that didn't make sense because the writers were high on their own farts by this point. "All the miscellaneous paranormal bullshit in the setting was part of the God-Machine the whole time! The God-Machine wants humanity to mine more uranium... or does it? We don't know!" Oh for fucks sake, these dipshits don't know what the fuck they're doing.
I read Midnight World recently and, unsurprisingly, the world building does what GMC tried and failed to do. Rather than trying to incompetently pretend "oh we're so mysterious because we're high on our own farts", the world building is actually concrete. Rather than just making up incoherent bullshit, the setting describes several "corpse universes" in exacting detail, explaining their aesthetics and motivation, as well as providing guidelines to make your own. This is what GMC should have done.
I don't actually appreciate the vague wishy-washing world building. It suffers from having contradictory incoherent design goals. It tries to be a toolkit, but fails. It tries to provide a concrete setting, but fails. It tries to provide examples, and fails. It tries to avoid multibook references, and fails. It tries to include multibook references, and fails. It tries to have a monomyth, and fails. It tries to avoid monomyths, and fails. Oh for fucks sake! It tries to do too many contradictory things and predictably falls apart. What they should have done was emulate actual toolkits like All Flesh Must Be Eaten or Night's Black Agents, not this wishy-washy offbrand WoD bullshit.
They really should've focused more on adventures and adventure paths. That's probably one of the most useful products an rpg can have.
First off, thanks for mentioning Midnight World, this completely flew under my radar and I have to check it out.
Regarding CofD, I totally get what you mean, the excessive vagueness of the setting turned me off in the beginning too but if you get into the mindset that none of that actually matter into your games, it becomes a lot easier, the god machine is complete and utter bullshit but, aside from Demon, none of the games has it as an active influence in their plots, most fans just pretend it don't exist and just tell their stories, it's not optimal but I think it's still better than oWoD and it sure as fuck is better than V5.
There's a big difference between modularity and vagueness. The problem with CoD is that it refuses to give you a true toolkit with multiple settings from the start, but then wants to poorly ape that flexibility by making itself so vague that the default setting is mostly useless. It doesn't actually give you any tools for making your own settings like Night's Black Agents does in spades, but pretends it does anyway. I don't find this any improvement over WoD's straightjacket metaplot lore baggage.
Compare this to All Flesh Must Be Eaten. It is a genuine toolkit with a plethora of campaign settings or "deadworlds." These are all wildly diverse, but each is still very concretely defined. Some of them are small scale enough that they could even be combined in the same campaign without contradicting. One deadworld in particular, Rise of the Zombie Masters, is actually designed as an addon for other deadworlds.
A lot of groups aren't creative and need an existing structure. I can make my own settings, but the main problem is that it is time consuming.
I mean, requiem does give you multiple settings in the form of other cities who are pretty well designed, dark eras in particular also gives a lot settings, I guess what you are looking for is a whole books about specific settings which would definitely be nice but apparently out of Onyx Path's reach, hell, they can't even afford to do actual erratas for their games.
Quote from: Abbo1993 on January 26, 2023, 02:26:56 PM
I mean, requiem does give you multiple settings in the form of other cities who are pretty well designed, dark eras in particular also gives a lot settings, I guess what you are looking for is a whole books about specific settings which would definitely be nice but apparently out of Onyx Path's reach, hell, they can't even afford to do actual erratas for their games.
What I mean is that
Requiem still has an implicit default setting or universe with assumptions that everything is written to be compatible with, aside from deliberate (and isolated) outliers like
Danse Macabre or
Requiem Chronicler's Guide. Every book assumes that the conceits of this setting hold true regardless of what the book introduces. Sure, it may not have a metaplot where god-like NPCs influence the course of world events, but it does have a history and world loosely scattered across the books which it never tries to challenge. This has benefits and drawbacks. It's less restrictive than
Masquerade, certainly, but it can't really do things like reference a concept across multiple books and develop it further or in new directions. Apparently this is because they don't want to force groups to buy multiple books to understand a concept, which only makes sense for physical books and not thing like PDF monographs.
For example, the Khaibit and Cult of Seth are referenced in a handful of books but aren't used to their full potential. I thought the idea was interesting, so I recycled it for my own brainstorming and expanded on it. My Sethians are pretty similar, given what I can use without infringing on copyright: associated with the Egyptian deity Seth, powers of darkness and sorcery to fight demons, tricksters who create chaos to prevent stagnation, and they're not limited to vampires but I'm not really sure what species to assign them. I further introduced an opposing cult of Apophis, who are basically weresnakes that engage in organized crime with the goal of subverting civilization from within. That sort of thing.
Another example is that all the vampires follow the same basic template. Ricean-style vampirism, then you add clan/bloodline/character class on top to provide minor tweaks. You aren't given the option to change how vampirism works or to have multiple wildly different strains of vampirism coexisting. Instead, you get two non-committal answers. First, the
Night Horrors books try to introduce other kinds of vampirism as minor oddities at most. Second, the rules try to shoehorn various vampire myths into the existing template through the mechanic of banes, which is just tacking them onto the standard template.
It's not a toolkit, not like
Feed,
Night's Black Agents,
Undying, or
Vampire City is. Of course, this hasn't stopped writers and fans alike from boasting that it's a "toolkit." Look, I get that a genuine toolkit like those other games I mentioned would be more difficult to write further supplements for, but that's not my problem to figure out. AFMBE managed it just fine, for comparison.
Il say this, I have a strong liking for their Exalted setting, as messed up and messy as it is. It retains a lot of OWoD pretentiousness that slowly bleeds away over time. Reading the artbook, it was really made with love, even if they thought about player interaction only half the time.
To this day, I really can't understand what's so great about exalted, I mean if you are into anime and such then sure but frankly, it's nothing to write home about, the system is also ridiculously shitty, like seriously I can't understand why people would torture themselves with such a horrid system, makes oWoD look tame by comparison.
Quote from: Abbo1993 on January 27, 2023, 06:51:08 AM
To this day, I really can't understand what's so great about exalted,
Because its a superhero game where you can also build stuff, and make your own kingdoms and such.
It's also a setting made with a eye towards real world history and mythology which gives it more bite and pep.
Its mechanics are bad, but emulate a specific feel very well.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 27, 2023, 09:26:14 AM
Quote from: Abbo1993 on January 27, 2023, 06:51:08 AM
To this day, I really can't understand what's so great about exalted,
Because its a superhero game where you can also build stuff, and make your own kingdoms and such.
It's also a setting made with a eye towards real world history and mythology which gives it more bite and pep.
Its mechanics are bad, but emulate a specific feel very well.
Except it doesn't actually support PCs making anything or ruling anything. At least not any more than any other game out there does (and a lot less than some).
The setting -is- what appeals to the people who like Exalted to be sure, but a lot of folk get turned off by the gonzo "everything and the kitchen sink" aspect of it. Granted, I think that's a selling feature, but it is a matter of taste.
Mechanically it doesn't matter what the system tries to emulate if it doesn't work well, and Exalted doesn't work well. Ultimately, it wants to be a supers system, but it lacks a way for players to make their own powers (even though they're expected/encouraged to make such). It uses a variant of the original Storyteller System, without fixing any of the flaws of the original. And it all revolves around minigames of multiple resource management, which doesn't feel heroic as much as an exercise in bean counting. It's a mess, but worse than that is that it's too cumbersome to be a mess you can easily handwave around.
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on February 03, 2023, 10:57:56 AMExcept it doesn't actually support PCs making anything or ruling anything. At least not any more than any other game out there does (and a lot less than some).
It doesn't have ACKS-style kingdom sims, but I would argue that's not a break-or-die feature for rulership, any less then having death-by-constipation rules are a requirement for PCs to ever build/ go to a toilet.
QuoteThe setting -is- what appeals to the people who like Exalted to be sure, but a lot of folk get turned off by the gonzo "everything and the kitchen sink" aspect of it.
I wouldn't call it "everything and the kitchen sink" moreso than regular D&D, and Exalted is way more cohesive then D&D. It also very much depends on the edition lorewise. 2e is much more anime and gozno then 3e. I still have a love/hate relationship with the setting.
QuoteMechanically it doesn't matter what the system tries to emulate if it doesn't work well, and Exalted doesn't work well.
I feel like I'm in crazy town, because I think of myself as somebody DEEPLY critical of its systems and its broken and crap mechanics in so many ways, but I basically disagree with almost all your assessments.
QuoteUltimately, it wants to be a supers system
It doesn't. Exalted wants to be Exalted, and I have never found a good system to perfectly substitute the core of its experience like I have for say Shadowrun, or even Vampire the Masquerade.
Anime shonen crap is superficially similar to Superhero things, but the emphasis it places on similar beats creates a very different-ish result.
Honestly, I feel like the only reason for liking Exalted is the setting, other than that I can't see other positives about it, hell, even people who like it say that the setting is pretty much the only reason to play it, the system is objectively atrocious and unlike CofD, you can't even say that is functional since the amount of stuff that breaks once you start hitting certain power levels (which can happen relatively quickly) is through the roof, the Onyx Path forum is full of people complaining about this.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 03, 2023, 01:19:07 PM
I have never found a good system to perfectly substitute the core of its experience like I have for say Shadowrun, or even Vampire the Masquerade.
Not surprising.
Shadowrun uses fairly generic rules design that can be swapped out for another system without disrupting the game. In fact, a lot of those older 80s games work this way. I've seen this style of design called "simulationist" before, but others claim that's incorrect so I don't know what to call it.
VtM can't agree on what it's core experience is supposed to be and its rules aren't good at the things it tries to do. There are other games with better support for politics, humanity loss, or playing unrepentant monsters.