Quote from: oggsmash on April 19, 2022, 04:40:25 PMThey created those Fan(atics) though.  I have to give them credit.  I do not have to love them.

I don't believe morons of such calibur are created, its more like they where found. I guess GW must have been doing SOMETHING right to string along so many dupes.

But back to WW:

They where always on the left side for their time, and now that means being woke. Before they where more hippies, and now they are hipsters.

Yeah, the WW settings have always been obnoxiously counterculture. What's more, many fans didn't and still don't realize this even though the books make it painfully obvious.

In VtM, the vampire hierarchy was stagnant. Older generation elders at the top, newer generation noobs at the bottom. This wouldn't change ever. The noobs could only ever advance their position by overthrowing and literally cannibalizing their superiors. This was even a major event in the backstory. It's pretty obviously a fantastical parallel for the communist revolutions.

In VtR, generational limits are removed and this is replaced by Underworld-style leapfrogging through time (only clumsier, because this is still WW). This is the exact opposite of counterculture, as it rewards maintaining a more or less static hierarchy for centuries. I'd even call it conservative, as it stresses accumulating your own power through hard work (as represented by xp) and then assuming your earned position when the current holder inevitably abdicates.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 07:51:08 AM
I find those concepts more bizarre and idiosyncratic than anything else, but it's the names that seal the deal. Metis is the name of a first nations tribe.

I always assumed Metis was a reference to the Greek Titan Metis. Actually it turns out the more relevant etymology here is metis as a French word (Latin origin, of course) meaning mixed person. Interestingly, looks like the American indian tribe you're referring to uses the French word as their name for themselves (sus).

Quote from: Omega on April 19, 2022, 03:21:28 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 18, 2022, 05:27:34 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 04:48:49 PMHow much of the movie Underworld is lifted from those games?  I remember seeing that movie wondering if anyone is getting sued.

There actually was a lawsuit at one point, I think; if I recall correctly, it was dismissed on the grounds that you can't copyright general ideas, tropes or stylistic resemblance.

Tell that to Harlan Ellison

The Terminator/Demon With A Glass Hand lawsuit?

Quote from: Omega on April 19, 2022, 03:34:50 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 18, 2022, 09:00:29 PM

Quote from: Omega on April 18, 2022, 02:24:51 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 18, 2022, 09:35:03 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 18, 2022, 05:39:53 AM
Especially the LARPers.

I never LARPed thank god. The concept always felt a little bit too creepy for me.

But whatever floats your boat...

I playtested the early version way back. Two of my local players used to host the local VtES LARP and it was pretty baseline really. Mostly interaction and intrigue focused far as I recall. Its the perfect LARP for a more casual play and doesnt usually need the props that other LARPs tend to need. Cthulhu Live was another that could pull this off. But the real fun was the ones with props and monsters.

I remember when VtM LARPers were all over Seattle around 1995 and they were nothing but fucking obnoxious asses at conventions. They had this unwritten rule that said they had to freak out the bystanders whenever possible. I guess it was a regional thing.

Yeah thats a complete violation of LARP rules to NOT freak out the bystanders. But then the Thoku movement and others preach everything for "muh immershun!"

Theres always going to be fuckwits in any venue who get off on this sort of stunt. Or take things too far. Especially the extreme end of "immershun" fanatics. Too many of whom are already practically one foot into coo-coo land as is.

But yeah we've heard of some of the Seattle LARPs going to hell. Not just the Vampire one. Same problems too of messing with the bystanders. And worse.

What is the Thoku movement?

Quote from: oggsmash on April 19, 2022, 02:55:51 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 19, 2022, 02:29:27 PM

Quote from: whatsleft on April 19, 2022, 09:32:58 AM
woke != left

I've fixed that for you.

Woke! = Dumb American/Canadian 'post' Left Extremists.

  Well, when I hear England and Germany talk about being "nations of immigrants" I am not certain the disease is as contained as you would like for it to be.   Given the state of some BBC programming choices, I think you are being extremely optimistic as to how localized the infection is.

Granted... The BBC are run by complete cretins (Britsh TV has gone down the toilet). The immigration issue is a complex one. But I don't know how popular that move by Germany actually was with the populous. Again in Britain, the vast majority of people don't want any more immigrants.

I'm really talking about RPGs here though. The wokness spread from those weird American Left extremists.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 19, 2022, 06:10:43 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on April 19, 2022, 02:55:51 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 19, 2022, 02:29:27 PM

Quote from: whatsleft on April 19, 2022, 09:32:58 AM
woke != left

I've fixed that for you.

Woke! = Dumb American/Canadian 'post' Left Extremists.

  Well, when I hear England and Germany talk about being "nations of immigrants" I am not certain the disease is as contained as you would like for it to be.   Given the state of some BBC programming choices, I think you are being extremely optimistic as to how localized the infection is.

Granted... The BBC are run by complete cretins (Britsh TV has gone down the toilet). The immigration issue is a complex one. But I don't know how popular that move by Germany actually was with the populous. Again in Britain, the vast majority of people don't want any more immigrants.

I'm really talking about RPGs here though. The wokness spread from those weird American Left extremists.

  Well, I think the wokeness is an extremely small population in every country.  I think we hear all the echoes of their cries in the USA because all the social media platforms are based here and give these people quite the bullhorn (and several of the internet "news" seems more than happy to have a pretty extreme view of things as well).   Regarding Rpgs, I guess it makes sense it comes from Americans, since the biggest most influential RPGs come from the USA.  I think popularity of movement or message almost does not matter, I think the position it comes from matters more. 

   In any event, back to WW, I always got the idea vampires appealed to a different crowd than I would have played with.  Of course WW had its heyday during a time when I did not play any RPGs for around 6 or so years, so I might have been pulled into a game or two back then (even then I bought RPG materials though, and it seems RIFTS and KS was getting my money around that time, and it is as goofy as anything WW ever put out.   Heck, he even was pushing the idea of vampires as PCs as well-- though rare).   

Quote from: Zelen on April 19, 2022, 05:42:33 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 07:51:08 AM
I find those concepts more bizarre and idiosyncratic than anything else, but it's the names that seal the deal. Metis is the name of a first nations tribe.

I always assumed Metis was a reference to the Greek Titan Metis. Actually it turns out the more relevant etymology here is metis as a French word (Latin origin, of course) meaning mixed person. Interestingly, looks like the American indian tribe you're referring to uses the French word as their name for themselves (sus).

Even if a Greek etymology were the case here, it still makes no sense. What does the titaness of wisdom have to do with a deformed werewolf incest baby? Altho that is par the course for WW jargon. Their heads are so far up their asses that they need capitalized misappropriated words for everything.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 02:27:46 PM
Like, I used to be big into 40k and the tyranids. After a while I lost interest because the tyranids don't actually have any characters or culture to use as a storytelling tool.

You can always just give them more personality.

But in all honesty they really do not need it and make a good counterpoint to all the other factions that are effervescing with personality, usually one-trick pony personality...

Early in though it looked like GW was hinting that there was more to these space dinosaurs, which is what they originally were, than just a mindless hoard. But in true GW fashion they realized that there was more money in aping the Aliens franchise than being, you know, original.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 02:27:46 PM
Yeah. I have quite a few axes to grind against various game companies that got lost in lore bloat. White Wolf, Games Workshop, Blizzard Entertainment...

Like, I used to be big into 40k and the tyranids. After a while I lost interest because the tyranids don't actually have any characters or culture to use as a storytelling tool. The tyranid campaigns in the RTS and 4X games are extremely boring because they either consist of the tyranids saying "on nom nom" or some magos biologis recounting their actions from a distance. What really got me pumped for voracious space bugs was the starcraft 1 zerg campaign opening with "awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright." It's been two decades and I still haven't found anything that recaptures that magic for me. (btw starcraft's writing quickly went off the rails and right into crazy town shortly after that. it never recovered and I can't stand it now.)

After the newcron debacle that squandered the storytelling potential of the necrons by making them all into broody emo space egyptians angry they got immortal metal bodies, I really don't want to see GW try to give the tyranids deeper characterization.

If you like to read sci-fi, check out Peter F Hamilton's "Commonwealth" series, especially the first book "Pandora's Star".  There is an alien species that is very bug-like. Some of the backstory of them is described where they started off as a species of various different hive-minds that competed on the same home planet, and one hive mind eventually took over the planet and controls all the drones/bodies, then it colonizes space and is hostile to all other life, the evolutionary psychology of cooperation never happened for this species so it sees all other life as a threat to its own existence that must be consumed or killed. There was some characterization of this "prime" alien mind.  It certainly could lead to a more interesting take on the tyranids for home brewed lore and backstory, but yeah, tyranids are typically more about how they're a threat to everyone else than anything specific about their own development.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 07:47:57 PM

Quote from: Zelen on April 19, 2022, 05:42:33 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 07:51:08 AM
I find those concepts more bizarre and idiosyncratic than anything else, but it's the names that seal the deal. Metis is the name of a first nations tribe.

I always assumed Metis was a reference to the Greek Titan Metis. Actually it turns out the more relevant etymology here is metis as a French word (Latin origin, of course) meaning mixed person. Interestingly, looks like the American indian tribe you're referring to uses the French word as their name for themselves (sus).

Even if a Greek etymology were the case here, it still makes no sense. What does the titaness of wisdom have to do with a deformed werewolf incest baby? Altho that is par the course for WW jargon. Their heads are so far up their asses that they need capitalized misappropriated words for everything.

Weird man. I literally explained how my assumption was wrong in the very next sentence, and why this terminology is fairly logical once you understand the real root/reference of the term in the game.

I mean, I think WW are wankers but you just seem to be looking for a reason to be upset here.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 19, 2022, 05:30:37 PM
Yeah, the WW settings have always been obnoxiously counterculture. What's more, many fans didn't and still don't realize this even though the books make it painfully obvious.

In VtM, the vampire hierarchy was stagnant. Older generation elders at the top, newer generation noobs at the bottom. This wouldn't change ever. The noobs could only ever advance their position by overthrowing and literally cannibalizing their superiors. This was even a major event in the backstory. It's pretty obviously a fantastical parallel for the communist revolutions.

In VtR, generational limits are removed and this is replaced by Underworld-style leapfrogging through time (only clumsier, because this is still WW). This is the exact opposite of counterculture, as it rewards maintaining a more or less static hierarchy for centuries. I'd even call it conservative, as it stresses accumulating your own power through hard work (as represented by xp) and then assuming your earned position when the current holder inevitably abdicates.

Leftism hasn't been about overthrowing oppressive aristocrats in a century. In the 1990's leftists could still get away with pretending to fight the power, though with the woke of today, they don't even pretend. Now some of the most important issues to the woke left are protecting the ability of the government or mega-corporations to censor and terrorize dissenters.

By the 1990's, fighting against oppressors was an entirely bipartisan idea, and now in the 2020's it's an exclusively right wing trope which is why the wokism of V5 fails for so - pretending like their corporate leftism is fighting the power is more LARPing than wearing fake teeth and playing rock-paper-scissors.

Quote from: Zelen on April 20, 2022, 02:54:59 PM
this terminology is fairly logical once you understand the real root/reference of the term in the game.

Really? We're actually having this conversation? How is a tribe of mixed-race indigenous people relevant to deformed werewolf incest babies? On one hand, that's horrifically offensive cultural appropriation (imagine if the deformed werewolf incest babies were called teutons, slavs, jews, yankees, romani, or any other name for a real ethnic group). On the other, it's not logical or clever because outbreeding and inbreeding are opposites. It would be much more logical to call the deformed werewolf incest babies "sawney beans."

Quote from: Zelen on April 20, 2022, 02:54:59 PM
I mean, I think WW are wankers but you just seem to be looking for a reason to be upset here.

Maybe so, but it's not like that's hard to find. This is low-hanging fruit and ShieldWife already mentioned the big apples earlier.

Honestly, I'm not even really upset about that. Horrified? Disgusted? Certainly. Like, one of the books includes a magic ritual where the participants must have furry sex. There is just so much disgusting stuff in those books.

Some of it is intended to be profound but comes off as lulzy. One of the books recounts the feminist fairytale that men formed patriarchy after learning where babies come from as historical fact and goes on to complain about how all human cultural heroes are actually evil patriarchs who murdered all the good matriarchs and demonized them as literal monsters in myths (e.g. the gorgons are claimed as actually being werewolf heroines murdered by patriarchy). That's the absolute laziest and poorly educated feminist reimagining of myth and history that I've ever come across.

And, again, they did try to invent a cool made-up name for deformed werewolf incest babies. How does somebody get to that point? That's bad enough by itself, but the fans are actually complaining that W5 is removing them from continuity. Again: these fans are upset that deformed werewolf incest babies named after a real ethnic group are being taken out of continuity. If I'm looking for reasons to be upset, then so are they and they're even worse at it than I am.

It's more exhausting to me than anything else. The books are full of so much deranged shit that trying to dredge it up makes me sad and depressed.

Quote from: ShieldWife on April 21, 2022, 12:30:34 PM
Leftism hasn't been about overthrowing oppressive aristocrats in a century.

Maybe so, but I can't think of many other reasons that "eat the rich" would be enshrined in the rules and setting. That wasn't a thing in Anne Rice, or indeed any other vampire fiction. Vampires in Anne Rice used very vaguely defined power levels where vampires grew more powerful with age but could transfuse/sacrifice their power to increase the power of weaker vampires and to create new vampires, and the power of new vampires was a fraction of their maker's so more powerful makers produced more powerful new vampires. This was a plot point in The Vampire Lestat where the Children of Satan had rules about it and despised Lestat because he was a gary stu too powerful for his young age.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2022, 02:42:26 PM

Quote from: Zelen on April 20, 2022, 02:54:59 PM
this terminology is fairly logical once you understand the real root/reference of the term in the game.

Really? We're actually having this conversation? How is a tribe of mixed-race indigenous people relevant to deformed werewolf incest babies?

Um... Unless WW changed something. Metis werewolves are not born of incest. They are just mixed breed and for whatever reason this seems to consistently create mutants.

As for "appropriation"... of what? Offensive to who? The words already "appropriated" from some other culture by the NA tribe you are white knighting for. 

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 21, 2022, 02:42:26 PMIf I'm looking for reasons to be upset, then so are they and they're even worse at it than I am.

Its more of a 'Your backing off in fear from a decison' type deal. I have played many WW games (with friends primarily) and stupid or not, many players have had fun with its bad ideas. This is removing something for no reason to stop offending people whos opinions they actually count higher for weak reasons.

WoD was built on edge, and has consistently sanitized itself in the modern age to appease the unapeasable.

I think something like...Goblin Slayer sucks eggs. But I would be against sanitizing it to appease perpetual whiners.