Quote from: Grognard GM on August 16, 2023, 02:12:10 AM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on August 16, 2023, 02:00:41 AM

Quote
I don't think game mechanics determine the level to which any particular group can focus on roleplaying.

AD&D's game mechanics actually focus very tightly on roleplaying.

If you roleplay badly it reflects back through the game mechanics and brings your character down.

Can you give some examples as to why this is truer for AD&D than for...most any game?

I can give you the exact rules from the book that explain it if you want.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on August 16, 2023, 11:28:24 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 16, 2023, 02:12:10 AM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on August 16, 2023, 02:00:41 AM

Quote
I don't think game mechanics determine the level to which any particular group can focus on roleplaying.

AD&D's game mechanics actually focus very tightly on roleplaying.

If you roleplay badly it reflects back through the game mechanics and brings your character down.

Can you give some examples as to why this is truer for AD&D than for...most any game?

I can give you the exact rules from the book that explain it if you want.

Please do.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 16, 2023, 08:04:43 AM
Well, objectively I think that GURPS has the most mechanical support for roleplaying. Character points (the XP of this game) are awarded primarily to each player based on how well he or she role played the character that was created rather than how successful the group was in their goals. That is pure mechanical support for roleplaying. GURPS has based most of the in game rewards for PCS on role playing. More than any version of D&D or any other game that I have played has done. I still don't play GURPS regularly due to lack of prep time but those are the facts.

I've actually considered GURPS a bunch of times over the years, but I never clicked with it. I never liked roll under mechanics, and I always found it's stat spread kinda iffy (granted, that's mostly aesthetic). Plus some aspects of the system are kinda over complicated and there's way too many skills, which ultimately adds to bloat and works against the characters.

But still...GURPs is kinda what I want in a RP. Just not the way I want it.

QuoteThere is nothing to discourage roleplaying in any edition of D&D but the classic editions had a bit more to encourage it, including alignment and associated behaviors.

Given the numerous arguments that alignment has spawned over the years, since its inception, I find its ability to actually support RP dubious. But I'm also skeptical of "RP/Background Disadvantages" in point buy systems as well. It's debatable how useful they are in encouraging genuine RP, and they're mostly there to help players pad their characters with extra points for more abilities. Some of them are hardly even real "Disadvantages", such as "Enemies" (i.e. "bags of XP").

If you truly want to RP your character a certain way, or include potential complications in their background, just do so. Then get extra XP if you RP your character well, or their complications become a real issue in actual play. I prefer simple (and optional) "personality traits" if we need to include some type of "RP mechanic". They serve as actual RP guidelines, and don't work as a stick to use against your character if the GM "feels" you didn't RP your character well (according to them).

But at least class restrictions to character conduct are more closely tied to D&D's implied setting than bullshit RP/Background Disadvantages, so I'll give D&D this much...



...at least they tried to encourage RP since early on. I'm just not sure how any of the stuff it included genuinely helps RP in actual practice.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 16, 2023, 01:02:54 PM
Given the numerous arguments that alignment has spawned over the years, since its inception, I find its ability to actually support RP dubious. But I'm also skeptical of "RP/Background Disadvantages" in point buy systems as well. It's debatable how useful they are in encouraging genuine RP, and they're mostly there to help players pad their characters with extra points for more abilities. Some of them are hardly even real "Disadvantages", such as "Enemies" (i.e. "bags of XP").

If you truly want to RP your character a certain way, or include potential complications in their background, just do so. Then get extra XP if you RP your character well, or their complications become a real issue in actual play. I prefer simple (and optional) "personality traits" if we need to include some type of "RP mechanic". They serve as actual RP guidelines, and don't work as a stick to use against your character if the GM "feels" you didn't RP your character well (according to them).

But at least class restrictions to character conduct are more closely tied to D&D's implied setting than bullshit RP/Background Disadvantages, so I'll give D&D this much...



...at least they tried to encourage RP since early on. I'm just not sure how any of the stuff it included genuinely helps RP in actual practice.

I've always been a fan of Mutant & Masterminds "Complications" for their disadvantages.

Basically, you defined some complications for your character (secret identity, elderly relative, etc.) and whenever they came up in the game you got a Hero Point when they arose (the points you use to push yourself beyond your normal limits; use them or lose them at the end of the current session). You also earned Hero Points for acting heroic and roleplaying in general so in practice it was more a list of "these are things I'm interesting in roleplaying about" than anything required in order to be able to play (they weren't even good for XP... though I believe there was at least one optional or maybe it was a house rule that tied XP/PP gain to how many Hero Points you earned in a session.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 16, 2023, 03:57:52 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 16, 2023, 01:02:54 PM
Given the numerous arguments that alignment has spawned over the years, since its inception, I find its ability to actually support RP dubious. But I'm also skeptical of "RP/Background Disadvantages" in point buy systems as well. It's debatable how useful they are in encouraging genuine RP, and they're mostly there to help players pad their characters with extra points for more abilities. Some of them are hardly even real "Disadvantages", such as "Enemies" (i.e. "bags of XP").

If you truly want to RP your character a certain way, or include potential complications in their background, just do so. Then get extra XP if you RP your character well, or their complications become a real issue in actual play. I prefer simple (and optional) "personality traits" if we need to include some type of "RP mechanic". They serve as actual RP guidelines, and don't work as a stick to use against your character if the GM "feels" you didn't RP your character well (according to them).

But at least class restrictions to character conduct are more closely tied to D&D's implied setting than bullshit RP/Background Disadvantages, so I'll give D&D this much...



...at least they tried to encourage RP since early on. I'm just not sure how any of the stuff it included genuinely helps RP in actual practice.

I've always been a fan of Mutant & Masterminds "Complications" for their disadvantages.

Basically, you defined some complications for your character (secret identity, elderly relative, etc.) and whenever they came up in the game you got a Hero Point when they arose (the points you use to push yourself beyond your normal limits; use them or lose them at the end of the current session). You also earned Hero Points for acting heroic and roleplaying in general so in practice it was more a list of "these are things I'm interesting in roleplaying about" than anything required in order to be able to play (they weren't even good for XP... though I believe there was at least one optional or maybe it was a house rule that tied XP/PP gain to how many Hero Points you earned in a session.

Yeah, that would be another way to handle it that could work, if your game has some sort of "Luck" style mechanic. Probably could work for 5e Inspiration as well. I've considered the idea of adding something like that in my game, but to recover Energy/Power Points instead (or get a temp point, if full).

The thing about this type of mechanic is that it's a carrot to encourage RP, rather than a stick to punish you for not RPing the "correct" way, which was the focus of old D&D. Which I think tends to be more satisfying and "supportive" of RP. And since you only get the benefit if/when it comes up, you also don't get the issue of players abusing the system for extra points, like you do in point buy systems with Disadvantages.