Quote from: Armchair Gamer on September 25, 2024, 02:49:48 PM

Quote from: yabaziou on September 25, 2024, 11:38:42 AMThen, the woke crow begins to petition for control of D&D and they won, somehow ...

  Any company as decidedly Chaos-aligned as WotC and headquartered where they are is going to go woke eventually; it was always just a question of when.

  I have my own opinions on 5E's success, ranging from the rational (good marketing, broad appeal, heavy nostalgia in a market primed for it) to the paranoid delusional (I'm still not 100% sure that certain parties didn't sell the game to Asmodeus for worldly success ). But I never bought the core books and sold off my copy of Curse of Strahd, the only 5E book I ever purchased, so I'm well outside the target market. The latest thing that brought home how far I am outside D&D's new audience  was finding out that there's a romanceable mind flayer in Baldur's Gate III.

Honestly, I like the simplicity of D&D 5, at least to my mind. The D&D of my teenager year was AD&D 2, which was not as easy to learn as "basic" D&D 5, but I ended up play Rifts, which was more matured in its approach to its occult and supernatural contents.

I am not pleased with the communist drivel that the more vocal, on social media, fringe of the D&D "enthusiasts" are into, for it is just inspired by, mainly 2 French communist philosphers and activists, Jacques Derrida and Michel Focault, who would be, probably, highly supprised that some US intellectuals have transformed theirs intelectual works (which have some merits ...) into secular religion(I know there is more to the woke agenda and its grievence studies, but whatever ...)

Honestly, "the message" is very condescending and I am not buying RPG books to being teach morality by a bunch of morality repugnant individuals.

Having read that Gary Gygax was called racist, by a bunch of actual racists, is not a development that I have enjoyed witnessing, especialy because it was done by a pack of cowardly cry-bullies, who spoke ill of the dead.

I love my D&D but I do not want to support WotC/Hasbro, so no D&D 2024 for me. My parents and teachers did their job in raising me to be a law-abiding French citizen and I want no part in the activism of a small group of lunatics who behave like melodramatic high schools mean girls.

And, of course, the vocal minority, in the small world of French speaking TTRPG niche, is made of Forge and story games enthusiasts, with a weird interest in Fate (which is an actual RPG), the PbtA "cult" and the Blades in the Dark imitators.

And, yes, there are bunch of woke apologists, we have also to endure their lunacy, on mainland Europe ... But the best part is they are, more often than not, at each other's throat, like a pack of rabid dogs and nobody truly likes them.

And, of course, most French D&D enthusiasts will buy the new PHB, once it is available, in French ... C'est la vie ! Nobody can outgun the well oiled WotC/Hasbro monopoly ...

It was a beautiful moment in time. As a compromise edition I could see myself returning to it in my nursing home years to avoid pudding fights in the cafeteria room.

As much as I'd like to jump on and say it was, I can't.

- It lasted ten years.

- It remained a successful gateway for most younger players, to the point where my daughter, who strongly prefers Oe/1e and Swords & Wizardry, wound up playing 5e more than half the time and even running it because that's where the players were.

- It was better than 4e, so it's not even the worst game sold under the D&D name.

I have no interest in it at this point but I'd be hard pressed to call it a failure.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 26, 2024, 10:49:31 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 26, 2024, 02:39:52 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 25, 2024, 10:08:19 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 25, 2024, 10:59:17 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 25, 2024, 03:42:14 AMin terms of the RPG experience

The "RPG experience" is a very subjective thing, and its measure should be more qualitative than quantitative. Some players no doubt prefer multiple short stand alone campaigns rather than one extended campaign. For them, it very well could be a "better" RPG experience.

As for changing player demographics, I think it's important that the game be able to adjust to the people playing it than to expect the people playing it to adjust to old ideas of how to play it.

No, it's actually pretty objective: the creation of a living world, and the effect of immersion.

How do you objectively measure the effect of immersion?

Immersion is a psychological state where the world becomes a real world and your character becomes a persona separate from yourself.

And how do you objectively measure something that happens within an individual's mind without it being subjectively impacted by their perceptions?

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 26, 2024, 04:56:13 PMAlso, anyone who has an experience of deep immersion will never question this.

Oh, so now it's a religion that only the faithful can understand...

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 26, 2024, 10:49:31 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 26, 2024, 02:39:52 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 25, 2024, 10:08:19 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 25, 2024, 10:59:17 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 25, 2024, 03:42:14 AMin terms of the RPG experience

The "RPG experience" is a very subjective thing, and its measure should be more qualitative than quantitative. Some players no doubt prefer multiple short stand alone campaigns rather than one extended campaign. For them, it very well could be a "better" RPG experience.

As for changing player demographics, I think it's important that the game be able to adjust to the people playing it than to expect the people playing it to adjust to old ideas of how to play it.

No, it's actually pretty objective: the creation of a living world, and the effect of immersion.

How do you objectively measure the effect of immersion?

Immersion is a psychological state where the world becomes a real world and your character becomes a persona separate from yourself.

I was heavily immersed, in a gaming session which my DM allowed and changed the whole night's session to accommodate; because I made a single bold but ludicrous statement.  He shut everything else down, because I offered him something to spin an exciting session around. 

I was rolling for my character's very life, again and again and again.  The DM matters.  The rules matter.  The attitude and atmosphere matters.  Immersion happens.  Immersion creates quality, memorable sessions.

I think Mearls/Pundit/Zak 2014 DnD was very successful although it won't have the staying power in the popular imagination of 1e, partly because they could never make a really good adventure. Product quality has been in decline for at least 6 years and 2024 DnD won't be a success except possibly for digital micro transactions. WotC successfully fucked up their 2014 success, through a mix of Woke and corporate greed.

Re immersion, for me it's the highest form of play but I appreciate that some people are not capable of it, Ron Edwards for instance built an entire gaming philosophy around his inability to immerse or to understand immersion. I'm more the opposite in that I can't understand the attraction of playing single-piece board games.

Quote from: S'mon on September 27, 2024, 02:47:04 AMI think Mearls/Pundit/Zak 2014 DnD was very successful although it won't have the staying power in the popular imagination of 1e, partly because they could never make a really good adventure. Product quality has been in decline for at least 6 years

Yep. 2015-2017 had some promising adventure paths, including Curse of Strahd and Out of the Abyss. If they had kept down that road, maybe 5E would have a better reputation than it does today. Instead WotC Bowdlerized the best books of the edition, re-publishing them with all the "objectionable" material removed (like any mention of orcs being "savage"). So not only did WotC stop publishing good books, they actually went back and made the old books worse. Truly stupid behavior on their part.

Quote from: Horace on September 27, 2024, 11:05:24 AM

Quote from: S'mon on September 27, 2024, 02:47:04 AMI think Mearls/Pundit/Zak 2014 DnD was very successful although it won't have the staying power in the popular imagination of 1e, partly because they could never make a really good adventure. Product quality has been in decline for at least 6 years

Yep. 2015-2017 had some promising adventure paths, including Curse of Strahd and Out of the Abyss. If they had kept down that road, maybe 5E would have a better reputation than it does today. Instead WotC Bowdlerized the best books of the edition, re-publishing them with all the "objectionable" material removed (like any mention of orcs being "savage"). So not only did WotC stop publishing good books, they actually went back and made the old books worse. Truly stupid behavior on their part.

Yeah WOTC, like many companies, bowed down for that ESG money and pat on the back from the globalist overlords. Now the ESG funds are drying up and they are left actually having to generate revenue after telling at least 80% of their customer base to sod off. Not a good financial position to be in. WOTC made a purposeful decision to shoot themselves in the foot and now the drugs they were high on are wearing off and it is starting to hurt.

Quote from: Calithena on September 26, 2024, 09:11:29 PM- It was better than 4e, so it's not even the worst game sold under the D&D name.

In fairness, this is accurate because 4e was a very good to great game, but a shitty Dungeons & Dragons

Quote from: shoplifter on September 27, 2024, 05:39:32 PM

Quote from: Calithena on September 26, 2024, 09:11:29 PM- It was better than 4e, so it's not even the worst game sold under the D&D name.

In fairness, this is accurate because 4e was a very good to great game, but a shitty Dungeons & Dragons

Fair. I had some great times running 4e, but all attempts to run it *as D&D* were disastrous. It makes a great "Fantasy Marvel Superheroes" game though.

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 26, 2024, 02:02:09 PMYet not everyone plays for immersion, nor do they enjoy immersion. One of the better things to come out of WotC's budget was research into the various player motivations and Immersion (what the researchers labeled The Actor) is only one of about eight primary types of player motivation.

This the same wotc that lies at every turn? The same wotc that likes to doctor surveys? The same wotc who's "research" tells them that players only want to min/max?

Yes, theres alot of different styles. There always has been. The problem comes when someone thinks you have to cater to one only and the rest get dirt.

Quote from: S'mon on September 27, 2024, 02:47:04 AMRe immersion, for me it's the highest form of play but I appreciate that some people are not capable of it,

I'm the same way.  The thing is that for me there are better ways of meeting all of those other goals of play than RPGs, either more focused or less work.  If folks aren't after immersion I don't understand why they don't go do those other things.  Not that I'm complaining, it creates more demand for the products I want.

The other big question will ultimately be whether OneDnD edition is already a failure?

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 29, 2024, 10:16:26 PMThe other big question will ultimately be whether OneDnD edition is already a failure?

According to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZpA28d6XLg the PHB is selling very very poorly in normal outlets. Also in the runup to release WoTC has managed to alienate huge swathes of players. So yeah.